894 double bluff? (Spoilers)

[CowardlyPaladin]

In short, I don't think so. Based upon the same logic here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html IF an adventuring party took all of the trouble getting too the pyramid, presumably fighting through the entire clan (as nobody predicted familizide) then they would instantly assume an illusion. Having done so much to get through this building, they would logically attempt to break apart the cube and find out....what is inside the cube (I'm so sorry). All the bluff does is buy the defenders a little bit more time, and if an enemy has gotten this far, it is safe to presume they would have killed most of the clan. Considering how relatively easy it would be to place another illusion pyramid (or not even that) in a different location, it makes sense that this pyramid is a decoy.


Thoughts?

[Porthos]

Why don't we use this thread to place our bets, as it were.

Do you think this stone is hiding the Gate/Way to the Gate: Y/N (Explain if necessary)

[DaggerPen]

Being elsewhere in the pyramid has a nice grey area between double bluff and straight truth. If the person reading the sign thinks "hah he's bluffing!" then they'll probably just search in that little gazebo area forever. If they think it's the truth, they leave the pyramid. So the safest bet is to put the gate somewhere else in the pyramid

I think that Kornaki here makes a lot of sense. Place my money on "Elsewhere in the pyramid, inaccessible by any of the conventional passages (but accessible by passwall)," with a side bet on Vaarsuvius finding it.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I think that Kornaki here makes a lot of sense. Place my money on "Elsewhere in the pyramid, inaccessible by any of the conventional passages (but accessible by passwall)," with a side bet on Vaarsuvius finding it.

My bet is on "Outside the Pyramid, but close enough that the family can find it very easily" Afterall, the logical conclusion of an evil adventuring party would be to try to search the rest of building.

[Macros]

Seems logical. Putting the Gate in the Stone would be a bit too obvious (it's the part that everyone will check the most), but putting it outside the heavily defended pyramid would be too risky. Now, of course, this "somewhere else" still cover a lot of ground...

[Nilehus]

That... would fit incredibly well with Girard's philosophy. After all, everyone only thought "He's an Epic-level Illusionist, it'll be hidden behind craptons of illusions." They'd be so busy focusing on the flashy spells and traps, they wouldn't even think of the possibility that there isn't a right path. Girard is playing a shell game, and the ball is taped to the underside of the table.

Exploiting people's preconceptions is just as powerful as any epic illusion spell.

[angry_bear]

I'd laugh if it turned out that the real pyramid was buried beneath the spot that The Order first came across. The one with the prerecorded message from Girard.

[TDG]

I don't look at this as a double bluff/+4 salt in wounds "nyah nyah, it was all a lie" trick - I would say its more of a "well crap, they're here now. It couldn't hurt" stone

To my mind, the stone isn't meant to be the best and brightest trick available in the Draketooth arsenal, but a last ditch "it might work" hail mary.
I mean, had the pyramid's defences been up fully (IE: Darth V hadn't nuked it from orbit) then getting to this point would have required some serious firepower and cunning and it might have been Girard's last hope in the form of "there's a slim chance they'd believe this given they've already disbelieved all my illusions and slaughtered/avoided my family".

Locating the pyramid, beating the extra illusions that weren't there, managing to avoid illusion hidden traps, not being slaughtered by the Draketooth clan as you un-trappify traps and enjoy your perfect world, and then finally getting to this room which might have had all sorts of eldritch horrors if the clan had been alive and alerted to your presence requires some serious power. Maybe Girard was relying not on overpowering them, but hoping a simple ploy might send them looking for more answers to give a bit more time to attack/flee/warn the others (Senri in particular)
The stone may not have been a final "haha! they'll never beat this" so much as a "let's just throw it in. If it stops/delays one out of every ten people that powerful than that's 10% of no hope situations with a bit of extra time to get help/warn others/enjoy our last moments alive"

As we've seen here, it worked on Nale and co. Sure, another group might look at the same thing and think it through more rationally/test the waters a bit more -- but we've got in-comic proof that it wouldn't be a complete waste of time carving a stone block in that room.
When that stone block may be the difference between a happy world and a "torn-apart-by-a-god-killing-soul-unmaking-abomination" world I'd say it's worth a go if nothing else.

Not to mention that storywise it'd make more sense for the last 57 strips to be in the right location given we already had the bait-and-switch location earlier in the piece and we want to see some sort of rifty-gatey action.

[kxm]

Is it possible that this is Girard's master illusion, and when Evil (or Lawful, knowing Girard) people look at it, all they see is that stone block, but to those who "qualify", they can actually see the gate? But I don't know if it's possible to have such a powerful illusion without Epic Spellcasting, especially since it would have to be impervious to True Seeing and other spells.

[Tass]

Another question is: Did Serini have the coordinates to this pyramid, or to the real hiding place assuming it is somewhere else?

[CRtwenty]

Another question is: Did Serini have the coordinates to this pyramid, or to the real hiding place assuming it is somewhere else?

Hard to say. But most of the characters seem to believe Xykon has the actual coordinates. So I'm going with him actually having them for now.

I'm of the opinion that this is a double bluff. Girard doesn't seem like the kind of person who would waste the lives of his family guarding an empty dungeon. This is just a layer of misdirection to buy some time in case somebody ever penetrated that far.

[SowZ]

I don't think it would be in another pyramid, because this is where all the spellcasters where. I don't necessarily think it is in the stone, though.

[tyckspoon]

Is it possible that this is Girard's master illusion, and when Evil (or Lawful, knowing Girard) people look at it, all they see is that stone block, but to those who "qualify", they can actually see the gate? But I don't know if it's possible to have such a powerful illusion without Epic Spellcasting, especially since it would have to be impervious to True Seeing and other spells.

The Gate could actually just be inside the giant block of stone. The outer message would be a Girard-typical bluff, a misdirection to send explorers away.. but the actual final *defense* would be a complete changeup- a Kragor-esque physical barrier, requiring raw power to bust open and get access to the Gate. Which is something possible attackers may not even think to attempt after working there way through layers and layers of illusions, traps, and other trickery. Also, it could take quite a while to search the block even if you did begin disassembling it- if Girard's Gate is one of the smaller ones, the actual seal of the rift could be in as small as a D&D standard unit 5-foot square. And that block is probably made of at least thousands of those.

Edit: Also note that while divination spells are pretty good for identifying and breaking illusions.. there isn't a heck of a lot that pierces a sufficient thickness of stone. Shy of a well-made Epic spell the only way you are going to determine whether or not the Gate is actually *in* that block is to physically disassemble it.

[Darthteej]

You know, it is EXACTLY this kind of overthinking which makes this trick work. Whether or not it's a double-bluff, any party that doesn't immediately give up like Nale will instead get bogged down in paranoia and arguing about the best course of action.

[Porthos]

Shy of a well-made Epic spell the only way you are going to determine whether or not the Gate is actually *in* that block is to physically disassemble it.

:vaarsuvius: Allow me to prepare my rebuttal:

:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate.

:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate.

:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate.

Remember, V has hardly cast any spells today. :smalltongue:

[Copperdragon]

I think it's the last line of defense. "Dread, they found it, but let us hope they are disappointed enough to just run away in pure actionism and do not come back".
Locate object is easy to fool (especially as Z does not even know what to look for) and the other spells are blocked by stone.

The gate is there, somewhere. If not in the stone, then in/below the room.

Or, as we have learned just at the beginning in the stony ass of the Giarard-Statue. :smallbiggrin:

[R. Malcovitch]

I'd laugh if it turned out that the real pyramid was buried beneath the spot that The Order first came across. The one with the prerecorded message from Girard.

As funny as that would be, that's a major security flaw. Lies can protect something, but obscurity can protect it better. Why rely on your enemy chosing not to search a spot, and doing what you can to make them not search it, when you can simply make it *not be there*?

If ANYTHING, ANYWHERE says where the object to be hidden is, that's an unacceptable security hole. Doesn't matter how well hidden those directions are, doesn't matter how unrelated it seems, doesn't matter how removed from your identity it or the person holding it is, it's a hole. It's a weakness.

When going full paranoia, you can't rely on double bluffs. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that the co-ordinates Girard gave Serini lead to a dead end just like Soon's, only the recorded message is a lot nicer and has fewer bombs. If not, that's a gaping hole in Girard's security, and it's not like a legitimate threat would ever get his hands on them and work out where the Gate is so he can come take it...

From what we've seen of Girard, there's no way he would tolerate ever giving the Gate's location even the slightest hint of significance. Even so much as a door to the room its in is too insecure. The Gate isn't accessable from the hallways with the traps, they just go around and around without ever going anywhere, letting invaders die to their acceptance of the status quo. There are a network of tunnels that co-exist with the main passageways that never formally intersect. The only way to get in is to either use Passwall or smash the wall open. There are no markings of where these entrances are and their location is not written down anywhere.

Those tunnels similarly just go round and round pointlessly. They too must be left for other tunnel systems, which continue recursively until at an arbitrary point that is NOT the furthest or most cumbersome point from any possible start (that would imply significance) there is another hidden chamber, not connected to anything, immune to passwall (Layer of metal that is indiginous to the region set up to appear like a naturally occuring vein), that inside contains enough latant magic to annihilate any invader. No illusions; just summons, buffs for the summons, and explosions. In the center is a lead box just slightly bigger than the Gate.

Meanwhile, the Gate is not there, it is located just below the surface of an entirely unexceptional bit of desert, encased in a small lead case. The area is NOT warded against scrying, because as we have seen in the comic, being warded against scrying makes you significant and thus capable of being found. The lead does make it immune to scrying, but the 'resolution' is so fine that it would take centuries of constant casting in order to find an area at the very least that is smaller than the Gate in Dorukan's dungeon. There is no magic around it, no outposts, nothing. Inside the case are contingent explosives that detonate if the case is ever touched or moved. The co-ordinates are not written down anywhere, and are not known to anyone other than Girard. The Draketooth family is unaware that the Gate is not in the final chamber within the recursive tunnel maze.

It gives invaders exactly what they're looking for. Idiots get a dungeon filled with traps and guards. More intelligent invaders get a maze that goes nowhere. Even more intelligent people get a series of mazes that rely on pure chance to move between them. The most patient and/or lucky of them get a room of death. No one gets the Gate.

It's the "phylactory as a grain of sand in the desert" strategy. There is nothing, literally nothing, that can be done to find the gate other than scour through every sand dune in a desert that spans most of a continent.

[Steven]

:vaarsuvius: Allow me to prepare my rebuttal:

:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate.

:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate.

:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate.

Remember, V has hardly cast any spells today. :smalltongue:

Allow me to prepare my rebuttal:

CRRRRACKKKKOOOOOMMM

Because blasting away at a chunk of rock with a fragile gate in it isn't actually a great idea.

[kickassfrog]

Can epic illusions be disbelieved by touch? Because none of the LG actually tried to touch the stone.

[CowardlyPaladin]

You know, it is EXACTLY this kind of overthinking which makes this trick work. Whether or not it's a double-bluff, any party that doesn't immediately give up like Nale will instead get bogged down in paranoia and arguing about the best course of action.

Yeah but if you weren't in a hurry like OOTs and LG, the very first thing most groups would be to check that block.

[Porthos]

Allow me to prepare my rebuttal:

CRRRRACKKKKOOOOOMMM

Because blasting away at a chunk of rock with a fragile gate in it isn't actually a great idea.

Well, the point is that it blasts away in 10 cu ft chunks. One or two should let you see if this is a hollow hunk of slab.

[factotum]

I think "Between Girard's buttcheeks" is going to turn out to be significant--maybe that's the family's name for a rock formation nearby or something?

As for this being a double bluff, it's certainly possible, but the best place to put the double bluff would have been at the site of the explosion in the middle of the desert, not here.

[Porthos]

As for this being a double bluff, it's certainly possible, but the best place to put the double bluff would have been at the site of the explosion in the middle of the desert, not here.

Maybe it's a triple bluff (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/triple_bluff). :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

I don't think it would be in another pyramid, because this is where all the spellcasters where. I don't necessarily think it is in the stone, though.

Well, we don't actually know for sure if this is where ALL the spellcasters were. We don't actually know the size of the Draketooths clan. There could easily be several pyramids, each manned by a contingent of Draketooths (all of whom are now dead and mummified, but the other pyramids are just dead and empty right now).

[Macros]

Hmmm, if the Gate is actually inside the stone, is there a way to destroy the stone without touching the Gate ? The one in Azure City was pretty small, if this one is of the same size, it seems tricky to get it undamaged.

And I agree with the fact that it's probably a last ditch effort. I somehow doubt Girard would be so callous as to sacrifice his entire family to protect a big pile of nothing, and story-wise, I don't think it's the right place for such an anticlimactic end to the story arc.

[DaggerPen]

Allow me to prepare my rebuttal:

CRRRRACKKKKOOOOOMMM

Because blasting away at a chunk of rock with a fragile gate in it isn't actually a great idea.

Well, hey, at least Team Evil can't get to it then. :P

[ChristianSt]

I think the gate is mostly likely in this pyramid: If it wouldn't be there, why take the chance that anybody stops looking there because of this sign?

The other option would be that isn't in any pyramid at all and Girard has a pyramid scheme :smallwink: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme) going and hiding the gate somewhere else - but I think it should be somewhere really near (unless they have the option of magically getting there), because setting up his clan somewhere where he can't help with the gate if needed seems rather risky to me (and I don't think that Girard's clan is so large that he can afford to set up a couple dozens clan-members on a bunch of pyramids in addition to the gate location).

[Avaris]

I think it's a double-bluff, mostly for the reasons described by TDG above, but also that this is the first time (I think) that Girard's pre-arranged defences have mentioned a gate. Anyone getting this far is almost certainly after the gate rather than a random adventuring party, so Girard has thrown caution to the wind as a last, desperate bluff.

[KillianHawkeye]

It suddenly occurs to me that the Draketooth family tree in the common room was pyramid-shaped. It even has an image of Girard on it whose miniscule buttcheeks may have just gotten a lot more important.

[Copperdragon]

There's another point which makes be believe this is actually Girard's last resort to fool whoever is there.
One of his worst worries was Soon with his Paladins and I think betting they do believe this is not such a bad bet. Girard must have thought of him as well when he set that up. Especially as he had already pulled this trick for whoever (Soon) came first to the original coordinates he gave Soon.

[This Wicked Day]

I think it's a lie but only partly a double-bluff. I doubt there's another pyramid, but I also doubt the Gate is in the room that's so very clearly set up as the Ultimate Doom Chamber. It'll be somewhere unobtrusive. KillianHawkeye's comment about the family tree diagram intrigues me ...


I think "Between Girard's buttcheeks" is going to turn out to be significant--maybe that's the family's name for a rock formation nearby or something?

As for this being a double bluff, it's certainly possible, but the best place to put the double bluff would have been at the site of the explosion in the middle of the desert, not here.

I've seen several people mention the possibility of "Girard's Buttcheeks" being some sort of local landmark - probably, from context, a pair of small hills or similar. It's only now occurred to me that you only need a moderate level of crossword-style bad wordplay for "pair of hills" to = "double bluff".

(I doubt this has anything to do with anything but it made me smile, so.)

[Darzil]

Personally I think it is inside the stone.

I was going for a guess at "shell game", which pyramid is it under (to which the answer would be none of them), but we've already had that in a previous storyline.

[quasit]

Wonder why didn't durkon's stonecunning skill didn't come to use there... ah, enthralled, nevermind. Not like he'd have spent too much skillpoints on search either.
Previously somebody asked if they thought the pyramid was a decoy or a trap. Why not both? Believing the sign would lead to keep searching elsewhere. Not doing so might lead to chipping the block until triggering a nasty bobby(ewing?) trap, a self destruct mechanism, the flame of udûn, whatever... while the real gate might be (or not) hidden elsewhere.

[Ashtagon]

I think it's in (or just off) this room, but not in the stone.

So much has been invested in defending this pyramid that any other location would relatively speaking be undefended, which makes no pragmatic sense. They'd already invested so much in making this site obscure that heavily guarding another site wouldn't be cost-effective.

But this room - everything in it has pointed to the gate being at the centre, where we find a block of stone, which invites everyone to go away at first glance, and invites everyone to scry it to pieces at second, and invites everyone to demolish it (risking a krakathoom) at third glance.

Placing it in a non-obvious door (or passwall access) from this room means that all the previous security measures have been meaningful, and all the defences in this room act as a distraction from where the real gate is.

[Nymrod]

Oh I get it!

It's a trap! He expects you to still check through the illusion. He has built a confusing room with doors upon doors. When you actually dig or disintegrate through the cube, doors crash and it blows you to bits after his programmed illusion says a wisecrack ofc.

[Lvl45DM!]

Oh I get it!

It's a trap! He expects you to still check through the illusion. He has built a confusing room with doors upon doors. When you actually dig or disintegrate through the cube, doors crash and it blows you to bits after his programmed illusion says a wisecrack ofc.

Ohh but that would actually work better WITHOUT the inscription.

Drawing from Haleys bluff speech the proposition Girard WANTS you to think is "Is he lying and it's here or is he telling the truth and its somewhere else" when there is the third option "He's lying AND its somewhere else."

Making them give up on this pyramid and look for another is better if there IS no other pyramid to find. Remember that this one was invisible in the middle of nowhere. Now imagine trying to find another one of those, how hard it would be before you were SURE that there wasn't another one somewhere.

But having it IN the rock would be stupid since it would take so little effort to crack it open.

So its likely IN the pyramid somewhere just not right there. The Evil folks will crack the rock open and get a face full of trap. The paladins will believe it and head off looking for another pyramid, especially since they already have had one decoy.

[erikun]

The best way to beat anti-illusion methods is with something real. The best method against divination is a thick wall of stone or metal. The best illusion is not having an illusion when everyone assumes there is one.

I'm beginning to thing that Girard's choice of a pyramid is noticably intentional. By the nature of its construction, it uses thick stone walls that you can't use normal magic divination to penetrate. Besides thematic, they are also practical for mostly hampering the anti-illusion school, divination. Also, all the walking and trap disarming ensures spells like True Seeing run out before travelling through too many rooms, so that explorers will only cast them inside "important" rooms - and Girard has a good idea of what an important room looks like.

Also, any sufficiently epic level divination will point out where the gate is, illusion magic or no. It seems highly unlikely that he would leave the gate anywhere but inside the protected pyramid. It also seems highly unlikely that he would allow a Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) spell, even if successful, to obtain any information. Being buring (or encased in stone) by at least 10 feet on all sides fits this exactly.

I'm betting inside the stone, or located someplace nearby - such as in a rough tunnel underneath the chamber that it intentionally filled in with dirt. Something similar to the tunnel V is in. This would mean that any sort of teleportation would shunt into the "final room" (which is in fact empty) but it gives the residents and easy method of diging it up and checking on it if they wanted to.

[SaintRidley]

There are a few options here.

The big box is telling the truth and this pyramid was just the cafeteria pyramid. Turns out there are others hanging around, all just as loaded with traps (and supposed to be loaded with illusions), including but not limited to the dormitory pyramid, the administrative pyramid, the gym pyramid, and the science lab pyramid. Roy is going to get pissed off.

The box is telling the truth. Inside the box is a small pyramid holding the Gate. V will likely passwall into it. Roy is going to get pissed off.

The box is lying. The Gate is inside the box. V will likely passwall into it. Roy is going to get pissed off.

The box is lying. The Gate is elsewhere in the pyramid. V will probably passwall into it. Roy is going to get pissed off.

No matter what, Roy's not going to be happy. In any case where they're in the right-ish location, I see V getting there first.

I like #2 and 3 the best right now. Were we not near the endgame of the plotline, I'd say #1 would have some potential.

[Copperdragon]

Actually, a tunnel that is the walled in (with dirt or an actual stone wall) is an exellent defense. If the tunnel is within/below a building that is warded against divinations of all sorts and also against teleportation and plane shifting, the tunnel would be as well.
There's no reason at all the Gate needs to be easily accessible. Why should it be? It's below a massive building made of stone and protection wards, why should someone actually go there? A door is just a hint where to go, while a wall is nothing but a wall or a floor is only a closed floor.

Vaarsuvius hit, unintentionally, the jackpot. Which is going to be bad news for Team Evil, The Order and Team Tarquin. The first thing they'll notice about the gate is the KRAACKAKOOOM when it blows up below their feet.

(Of course, the always competent Team Evil will rescue the other teams from their prodding around in murky waters and will find the access to the gate - can we please cut back to Haley who now knows something?)

[CCC]

My theory: There are exactly two pyramids.

They are very near to each other.

They are identical in just about every way; same illusions, same phantasms, same "Your gate is in another pyramid" block in the last, central room.

Each pyramid houses half the Draketooth clan.

The two pyramids are known as 'Girard's Buttcheeks'.

The gate is buried in the sand between them.

[Vinsfeld]

So... Trap or decoy? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html)

Looks like both now

[Tragak]

My theory: There are exactly two pyramids.

They are very near to each other.

They are identical in just about every way; same illusions, same phantasms, same "Your gate is in another pyramid" block in the last, central room.

Each pyramid houses half the Draketooth clan.

The two pyramids are known as 'Girard's Buttcheeks'.

The gate is buried in the sand between them. I just want it on the record that I think you're taking this too literally. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html)

Plus, the point that the corpse was talking about different rifts was very good.

[Geordnet]

I agree that having the gate outside the pyramid would be exceedingly risky. The only way I could see it working is if it were no more than a few dozen yards away, close enough that someone trying to excavate it couldn't ignore the pyramid, buried under completely mundane local rock cunningly crafted to look identical to natural terrain. ("Girard's Buttcheeks", perhaps?) The gate itself would be sealed in a small chamber with epic-level illusion spells designed to make it seem like there's nothing but rock down there, with a completely mundane self-destruct mechanism.

But even then it's a very risky gambit, especially against the sort of enemy Girard would have to fear getting though the pyramid (epic-level spellcasters). Any spellcaster which would be able to beat the clan (and many who couldn't!) could potentially get to the gate without them knowing, and only one villain needs to get lucky to do this. (More than that, only one villain needs to find it for the secret to be out, turning the advantage into a liability.)

More importantly though, the laws of narrative causality are still in effect. :smalltongue:


Right now, I'm going with this block being either a decoy/trap, or a last line of defense. If the latter, the gate is in the block, with no room to stand inside, and a completely mundanely-triggered for a self-destruct mechanism. (For instance, the block could be filled with sand, such that removing sand triggers the trap.) If the former, the gate is encased in solid rock (or another such self-destruct trap) somewhere non-obvious in the pyramid, without even a secret door to suggest its location.



Place my money on "Elsewhere in the pyramid, inaccessible by any of the conventional passages (but accessible by passwall)," with a side bet on Vaarsuvius finding it.
That would make a lot of sense from a narrative causality perspective. (I don't think it would have a "room" at all in the conventional sense, though, but I guess V could make one.)



It's the "phylactory as a grain of sand in the desert" strategy. There is nothing, literally nothing, that can be done to find the gate other than scour through every sand dune in a desert that spans most of a continent.
Three words: Epic Locate Object. :smalltongue:



One of his worst worries was Soon with his Paladins and I think betting they do believe this is not such a bad bet.
But remember, Girard bet on them breaking their oath quickly... :smallyuk:



Placing it in a non-obvious door (or passwall access) from this room means that all the previous security measures have been meaningful, and all the defences in this room act as a distraction from where the real gate is.
I don't see why there needs to be any sort of intentional access at all in this case, though. I mean, it's not like the Girard Clan needs to use it, just keep it safe.



Ohh but that would actually work better WITHOUT the inscription.
Why? If they leave without trying, you don't have to reset the trap. (And if they do come back, what do you think they'll try first?) :smallconfused:

[Amphiox]

Ohh but that would actually work better WITHOUT the inscription.

It would work better ONCE.

Having the inscription means a chance of deterring someone from triggering the trap, and getting them to give up and leave, saving the trap for the next time.

Traps are expensive, and Girard is made of paranoia, not gold.

[Obscure Blade]

I'm thinking in terms of the cube being hollow with something nasty inside, along with another sign inside the cube saying "THOUGHT YOU WERE REAL CLEVER, DIDN'T YOU?"



Traps are expensive, and Girard is made of paranoia, not gold.Illusionary gold? :smallwink:

[Fish]

Making them give up on this pyramid and look for another is better if there IS no other pyramid to find. Remember that this one was invisible in the middle of nowhere. Now imagine trying to find another one of those, how hard it would be before you were SURE that there wasn't another one somewhere.
I see your logic, and I was going to propose something similar. It might work best if there were ONE other pyramid to find, with a similar message. That would give potential enemies the worst thing of all: false hope.

Eventually, bad guys would return to the one pyramid(s) they know, like you always return to the place you thought you left your car keys. If you give them one other pyramid and the hope of others, you might get them wandering in the desert for years.

But I'm really interested in a different question: suppose there are multiple pyramids. Do they each have a Tomb of Girard?

[pendell]

That... would fit incredibly well with Girard's philosophy. After all, everyone only thought "He's an Epic-level Illusionist, it'll be hidden behind craptons of illusions." They'd be so busy focusing on the flashy spells and traps, they wouldn't even think of the possibility that there isn't a right path. Girard is playing a shell game, and the ball is taped to the underside of the table.

Exploiting people's preconceptions is just as powerful as any epic illusion spell.

Agree. This strip seems apropos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html).

I believe that the gate has to be SOMEWHERE accessible close by. We're too deep into this book and too close to the final climax to add twenty or forty more strips as everyone tries to locate it again.

But I suspect Haley to figure it out before anyone else.

Maybe Ian Starshine and his subplot will figure into it somehow?

But I'm not going to even guess what the answer is because I don't have enough information yet.

One thing I will say though -- everyone in the LG party at present is lawful. Nale (Lawful evil) Malack (Lawful evil) Durkon (LE) and the fiends. Thus they are predisposed to accept a set of rules at their face value.

They don't have a Haley in the group who has a twisty enough mind to spot the trick. Nale saw the sign and *believed* it.

Would Haley ?

If I could just get inside Haley's head -- if I really understood the chaotic mindset -- then this puzzle should be easy. But I'm intended-neutral/actual-lawful-to-the-nth-degree, so I can't.

Any chaotic people here who have an idea?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Valtiel]

I see your logic, and I was going to propose something similar. It might work best if there were ONE other pyramid to find, with a similar message. That would give potential enemies the worst thing of all: false hope.

Eventually, bad guys would return to the one pyramid(s) they know, like you always return to the place you thought you left your car keys. If you give them one other pyramid and the hope of others, you might get them wandering in the desert for years.

But I'm really interested in a different question: suppose there are multiple pyramids. Do they each have a Tomb of Girard?

There are three pyramids, labelled "One", "Two", and "Four".

More seriously: Two pyramids might work, but that halves the resources Girard has available to defend each one. He's not made of money.

I don't think the gate is just buried in a lead box in a random patch of desert. While none of the standard d20 SRD divination spells could find it (except maybe Wish and Miracle), there's nothing to stop epic level divination or a custom "Locate Planar Rift" spell from finding it - and once it's found, it's undefended.

[BenjCano]

It suddenly occurs to me that the Draketooth family tree in the common room was pyramid-shaped. It even has an image of Girard on it whose miniscule buttcheeks may have just gotten a lot more important.

This is the most plausible of the ideas presented thus far to me, but I am reminded of the crayon flashbacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html): Girard's gate was about the size of an overly-large doorway, on the desert floor.

[factotum]

So much has been invested in defending this pyramid that any other location would relatively speaking be undefended, which makes no pragmatic sense.

Maybe, but I bet it makes all sorts of sense to the person who believes, above all else, in the power of illusion and misdirection. Of course anyone who comes looking for the Gate is going to assault the pyramid that has all the illusions and the clan members in it! Besides, if anyone has managed to fight through all these defences to get this far, you know that the fight is pretty much lost--all you can do is hope the last misdirection will succeed where all the smoke and mirrors failed.

[Fish]

More seriously: Two pyramids might work, but that halves the resources Girard has available to defend each one. He's not made of money.
That's the beauty of it. They have an army of Draketooths with nothing to do but build more pyramids. They can start small and build over time.

[Olinser]

The Gate isn't inside the big stone sign.

But it IS inside the pyramid.

Somebody seeing the sign would logically break open the stone just in case. Then, when it's empty, they may very well give up. They went through all that trouble to get to the center of the pyramid, through the heaviest defenses they had, and found nothing. Most people would go looking for another pyramid.

I still stand by V stumbling on it by accident. After all - he's conveniently stumbled on a tunnel that just happens to connect to the bottom of a pit trap most adventurers powerful enough to get inside the pyramid would avoid tripping?

Tomb of Horrors, anybody?

[CowardlyPaladin]

I think it is buried outside because remember, the only people who live in this area is the clan. In order to access this place, you would need to get past the clan. So if an evil group came in here, even if they didn't find the Pyrimid, they would have no way of knowing to look in the ground, and the Draketooths will be attacking them if they wander around the desert. It isn't like an enemy force can get this far without there attention.

[pendell]

There are three pyramids, labelled "One", "Two", and "Four".


Y'know what that says to me? It says "Shell game".

And remember what Haley said about shell games. So long as you believe the rules of the game are still being followed, you're going to lose.

I think that sign is a flat out lie. I don't think searching for more pyramids would be anything but a waste of time for lawful people who actually believe what they're told.

Doesn't mean the gate is right there , of course -- but I for one would not go on a wild goose chase for other pyramids in the middle of this gods-forsaken desert. I'd sit down and put my most twisted thinker to work on it. I admit I just don't have enough information to solve it myself at this time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Copperdragon]

Anyone who made it to that point should start to take the pyramid apart, search it an inch by an inch, open up the walls, ceilings and floors, from bottom to top. And if that is done, they should dig below it. And only then move on.

If they are there, the traps, illusions and the clan has mostly been overcome. There's no reason to believe anything you see in there, even that last sign. I very much doubt anyone who made it there with all active spells and an active clan would believe this last trick, it reeks more of desperation than anything else (which does not mean it's not worth to try as I already mentioned).

[FlawedParadigm]

I note Malack is still looking at the block with the same satisfied grin he had when he said it seemed fairly straight-forward to him. It's possible the weaker spells Z and Durkula cast didn't see anything, and the Malack did, but simply intends to report the finding to Tarquin rather than Nale. Not sure if what he saw was necessarily the Gate, but he seems to be seeing the others aren't, else why keep looking at it?

[Fish]

"Trap or decoy?" "Both."

Maybe if you avoid all the traps, that is itself a trap. Girard may have said, "Okay, any adventurer who gets this far is good enough to avoid, evade or disarm my traps. How can I make that work against him?" Vaarsuvius found a passage by falling into a pit trap and using passwall.

The pyramid also fulfills the trap-decoy dichotomy by giving the adventurer passages that don't lead to the Gate at all. Most adventurers would never stop to ask, "If he wanted to protect this Gate, why did he even make a hallway leading to it?" They'd wander the trap-filled corridors forever, checking for secret doors, never questioning the logic. Girard put another set of corridors into the pyramid, or below it, that you can't get to.

It's certainly his style, anyway.

[Flame of Anor]

It suddenly occurs to me that the Draketooth family tree in the common room was pyramid-shaped. It even has an image of Girard on it whose miniscule buttcheeks may have just gotten a lot more important.

Ooh, I really like this idea.


This is the most plausible of the ideas presented thus far to me, but I am reminded of the crayon flashbacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html): Girard's gate was about the size of an overly-large doorway, on the desert floor.

Hm. Well, that could be a problem.

[Snails]

There sure is a some kind of bluff here, but it definitely is not in that cube. Any uninvited guest would have access to the magic mojo to check the inside of that cube. (In fact, the LG would check, but it would be too tedious to subject the readers to that effort. Better to not break to dramatic momentum.) That gambit buys so very little.

I am liking the speculation about wordplay.

Girard's Rift =? Windy Canyon
Girard's buttcheeks =? Double Bluff =? <some pair of hills>
family tree =? Another Pyramid

It seems likely that V will stumble upon another clue.

[Tragak]

There sure is a some kind of bluff here, but it definitely is not in that cube. Any uninvited guest would have access to the magic mojo to check the inside of that cube. (In fact, the LG would check, but it would be too tedious to subject the readers to that effort. Better to not break to dramatic momentum.) That gambit buys so very little.

I am liking the speculation about wordplay.

Girard's Rift =? Windy Canyon
Girard's buttcheeks =? Double Bluff =? <some pair of hills>
family tree =? Another Pyramid

It seems likely that V will stumble upon another clue. OR:

"So where is Girard's Gate?"
"Around the rift" | rift = crack in the universe
"So where is Girard's rift?" | rift = butt-crack

When Roy asked where the gate was, the corpse tricked him into rephrasing the question so that it wouldn't have to give any information. Unfortunately, Roy has already been conditioned NOT to be more precise. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

[redbeard]

I really think this is appropriate to bring up now: (safe for work page of an otherwise NOT safe for work comic). (http://oglaf.com/trapmaster/)

I'm in the camp that Girard is playing a shell game, there's at least one other pyramid, but that the gate is not inside it either; Not undefended, just not in a pyramid but hidden incredibly well. But I don't see that fitting within the structure of the arc. So Giant has me hooked and wondering how this will get resolved.

Right now I'm more interested in how the Malack/Nale drama is going to interact with the Order being seen by Malack. Malack IS lawful and has given his word to Tarquin to complete the mission and secure the gates, but to what end?

I've also always been curious as to how an arch-cleric of the god of destruction would react at the notion of the Snarl. Yeah for me right now the comic is all about Malack.

[King of Nowhere]

I vote for double bluff, and the gate is elsewhere in the same pyramid.
Tactically, it would make no sense for the gate to be in another pyramids. the draketooths were in this one. by putting the gate elsewhere, you risk someone stumbling on the pther pyramid first, and so bypassing all the draketooths. It would have made sense to build a decoy if it was easy to find, so that it would take attention away from the real target. but that pyramid was totally concealed. there's no reason anyone after the gate should find this one before the hypotetical real one.
On the other hand, it makes totally sense to put that message there. If someone went there, and managed to defeat all the draketooths, and to escape all the traps, one last desperate attempt at misdrection cannot hurt.
And putting the gate in a closed room that can only be reached by magic, after enough rock to block most divination, is the safest strategy. It would also corroborate the idea that the gate is not here, since the central room, the obvious location for the game, is empty.
So, if I was there, I would not believe the gate is elsewhere without having dismantled the whole pyramid first.

The only argument I have for not putting the gate elsewhere in the same pyramid (well, build the pyramid around it, technically) is that, being the most reasonable thing to do, it is also predictable. But, well, sometimes stabbing yourself in the foot just to do something your opponent didn't expect is not a good idea.

[Sharoth]

My vote is that the gate is behind the wall that has the family tree on it. ~shrugs~ I will bet my two coppers on that.

[SaintRidley]

Just to play devil's advocate to you, King of Nowhere, we know that the Draketooths were eating in this one. We don't know that they were living solely in this one, so other pyramids are a reasonable possibility. If it is straightforward (I doubt it, but let's just say it is), then this pyramid is basically a giant obstacle designed to wear invaders down and expend their resources while who knows how many other pyramids full of Draketooths are waiting to finish the job.

If the Gate were in a different pyramid, then this would actually be a pretty smart move.

[WalkingTarget]

Hmm...

I am intrigued by the phrasing on the stone: "Your gate".

Not "the". Not "our". "Your".

Makes me think: "Hey, you invaders. Whatever gate you possess, it's somewhere else [because this one here belongs and will continue to belong to us]."

I might be overthinking things, though.

Edit - even the original Mario Bros. line uses "our princess"

[pgrmdave]

I'm good at hiding things and keeping them hidden. It's reasonable to assume that Girard was as well. The first rule of hiding things? Don't put them where people will look. If you're hiding your jewelry at home, don't put it in drawers, not even in a false-bottom of a drawer - people know to look for things like that. Put it inside of a large speaker. Put it inside of a fake can of tomatoes in your pantry. Hide it where someone isn't going to look, not in the most obvious and fortified part of your house.

The pyramid serves multiple purposes. It was hidden and fortified, but it is also the obvious place to look. If you were to try to hide something within the pyramid, choosing the center chamber, the chamber which all the hallways are apparently leading to, is a terrible idea. It might be strongly fortified, but that's like a large bank vault - it's protected but it's not hidden. To hide the gate you want to put it somewhere that people won't look even if they see it, like in a series of tunnels hidden behind a trap that people want to avoid.

[Porthos]

I might be overthinking things, though.

Edit - even the original Mario Bros. line uses "our princess"

Yes, but thanks to Cultural Osmosis (and the Play It Again, Sam effect) the meme is:

"Sorry, but your X is in another Y." (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/but-our-princess-is-in-another-castle):


“Thank You Mario, But Our Princess is in Another Castle” (also known as “Sorry, But Our Princess…”) is a popular quote originally found in the classic Nintendo video game Super Mario Bros.

Its phrasal template “Sorry X, but your Y is in another Z” is typically used in replying to another user who is searching for a particular person or object in the wrong place. Because of its potential usage as a sarcastic remark, the quote is appropriately used as a mockng response and enjoyable resource for image macros and parodies, as well as some high-rated YouTube comments.


Which is what Rich was referencing. Note the original Super Mario Brothers line didn't have the 'Sorry' bit in there, either.

[pendell]

Did a quick review of all the pyramid strips up to this point. Possibilities that present themselves:

1) There may be other mini-pyramids, or frustums, within the labyrinth. Recommend following behind the linear guild and letting them find all the traps for us. Eventually they'll find the gate. Probably Xykon at the same time. Let them kill each other, than take out the survivor and neutralize the gate.

2) Press the symbol of gerard on the family tree up top.


The sarcophogus itself, of course, was already thoroughly searched. So nothing there.


I'm betting on possibility 1) . There are more pyramids-within-pyramids within the labyrinth, and one of them has the gate.

ETA: In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html) they search the canyon and are drawn to THIS pyramid by the overwhelming stench. Here, then, is my theory: The gate is somewhere inside this large structure, inside which are many mini-pyramids. IF the sign is to be believed , there is another mini-pyramid in which the gate is located. But Girard lies, so I have no reason to believe that sign is actually true.

E AGAIN to add: Never mind. Shell game. I'm not looking under a bunch of mini-pyramids. Let's go out of the box and check that family tree up top again. We can always go through the whole labyrinth again later if we need to.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[WalkingTarget]

Yes, but thanks to Cultural Osmosis (and the Play It Again, Sam effect) the meme is:

"Sorry, but your X is in another Y." (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/but-our-princess-is-in-another-castle):

Ah, that's what I get for remembering the source rather than thinking in memes.


Which is what Rich was referencing. Note the original Super Mario Brothers line didn't have the 'Sorry' bit in there, either.

I noticed it, just without the memeing it's just a shift to another pleasantry - the original "Thank you" wouldn't be fitting at all in this situation; "Sorry" is similarly (and in this case, sarcastically) polite.

[BenjCano]

I'm good at hiding things and keeping them hidden. It's reasonable to assume that Girard was as well. The first rule of hiding things? Don't put them where people will look. If you're hiding your jewelry at home, don't put it in drawers, not even in a false-bottom of a drawer - people know to look for things like that. Put it inside of a large speaker. Put it inside of a fake can of tomatoes in your pantry. Hide it where someone isn't going to look, not in the most obvious and fortified part of...

The flaw in your analogy is that Girard isn't trying to hide a small, valuable, moveable item. The Scribble flashback shows the gate as the size of a pair of double doors. The only way we know of to move them in any way is Redcloak's ritual. It's more of a case of designing and building the entire pyramid around an immobile, large feature.

[pgrmdave]

The flaw in your analogy is that Girard isn't trying to hide a small, valuable, moveable item. The Scribble flashback shows the gate as the size of a pair of double doors. The only way we know of to move them in any way is Redcloak's ritual. It's more of a case of designing and building the entire pyramid around an immobile, large feature.

Hiding something big has the same philosophies as hiding something small. The question is whether Girard was interested in hiding it or protecting it. Hiding it is merely a way to protect it, and I think it's the most logical for a paranoid illusionist with non-lawful tendencies.

Putting the gate in the center of the pyramid would still be a lack of hiding it, and unlikely to be something that a master illusionist would do. Assuming there's no need to monitor the gate, there's no real need to even have any access to it once the pyramid is built - you could bury the gate, build an entire pyramid on top of it, and keep people looking for it busy for a long time.

[Michaeler]

New theory:

There is a secret entrance here or nearby that V is about to emerge from. We've yet to learn what's up with that tunnel after all.

[Doug Lampert]

Right now, I'm going with this block being either a decoy/trap, or a last line of defense. If the latter, the gate is in the block, with no room to stand inside, and a completely mundanely-triggered for a self-destruct mechanism. (For instance, the block could be filled with sand, such that removing sand triggers the trap.) If the former, the gate is encased in solid rock (or another such self-destruct trap) somewhere non-obvious in the pyramid, without even a secret door to suggest its location.

Inside a load-bearing wall is where I'd put it if I were building this pyramid. If someone wants to start knocking down load bearing walls at random let's see what that gets them.

But narative causality says it has to be findable, because Our Heroes (or the villains or somebody) needs to find it. Which means there's a limit to how clever Girard could get.

And before someone points out how brilliant Girard was at misdirection, brilliant at misdirection REQUIRES that you be good at reading and predicting other people, and that includes the Paladin you spent years adventuring with. By the little evidence we have Girard was CRAP at reading and predicting people, and hence his misdirection will be similarly poor. Naratively, inside the rock is highly likely.

But if it's not inside the rock, then it's still near enough that this pyramid and its inhabitants were the main defense, one way or another it's inside the pyramid, I really don't think we're about to start hunting for the "real" pyramid at this point in the story.

[NCoffin]

I think the previously-mentioned idea that V is about to stumble onto the gate (or a path to the gate) is relatively on-the-money.

The message being a bluff in regards to the room/block itself strikes me as unlikely; as others have said, if a gate-seeker has made it this far there's no reason not to tear the area apart looking just in case.

Having the gate be in another normally-accessible part of the pyramid is risky in the same way. If you've already gotten this far into the pyramid, you've likely got the time to examine the rest while you're at it. It'll take time, true, but at that point it's as good a guess as anything.

I originally liked the idea of the gate being somewhere entirely inconsequential, with no magical protection of any kind, and a simple shield to prevent scrying. As mentioned above, though, this would be (or at least could be) discovered by epic-level magic, and it seems like too big of a gamble to me now.

Hiding the gate in a normally inaccesible part of the pyramid, or in the ground beneath it (which is what I assume the tunnel V is in is, although it might be accessible from the pyramid somewhere we haven't seen yet) is a compromise between the idea of having the gate be somewhere unremarkable and having it be protected in the event of an "unstoppable detection".

Also: The theories involving the family tree being a pyramid, or anything to do with Girard's buttcheeks, strike me as being ridiculous overthinking. We really haven't seen much in the way of that kind of twisted-logic wordplay, and frankly there's no reason why the line about a pyramid would be a hint to the location rather than an outright lie. In fact, it would be counterproductive.

As a side note, I believe that Girard is paranoid enough that even the rest of the Clan was not aware of the true location of the gate. I'm not sure what the story he told them would be, just that I don't think he would have told anyone if at all possible. The fewer people who know the location, the less likely it is that the information gets out, after all. This goes for Serini as well; The journal will be another mislead, I'd guess.

[BobTheDog]

Just to add my own rampant speculative theory:

There is no rift in the western continent. The Order of the Scribble secured and guarded all the other rifts, but Girard, paranoid as he were, always assumed that eventually, something would come knocking after them. He realized that, in order to help defend the gates, they would need to divert any invaders. So, he created a decoy.

What Serini and the rest of the Order thought was a new rift was only an illusion cast by Girard. He then "closed and protected it" with what would eventually be the pyramid. The goal? Make invaders lose time (or die) looking for "Girard's Gate".

"Girard's Gate is around Girard's Rift, and those lie between his Buttcheeks." We're thinking this is either a clever wordplay or a failsafe against divinations (i.e. either the rift is actually between something called "Girard's Buttcheeks" or Girard devised that crack [pun intended] so that Speak with Dead would not give information to any invaders). However, that sentence could be just that. A reference to Girard's a-hole. Much like someone in 60 oots-years might be hunting for the legendary Trouser Titan.

Also, due to familicide, we do not know how the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) would react to any invaders. Again, the obvious assumption is that they'd try to defend the pyramid against invaders. But they were illusionists (or at least some of them were). Their "line of defense" would be less about combat and more about deception. Perhaps entirely so. Maybe the actual strategy of the Draketooths would be to keep reinforcing the illusions/creating new ones to KEEP any invaders chasing geese inside the pyramids until they eventually died or went away. They might move in for the kill if an entire group got snatched by the hall-of-happy-endings, but other than that, I think it's feasible that they wouldn't get involved otherwise.

Plus, they could keep doing that indefinitely, as the family line would continue to be renewed. So, if Xykon arrived and started looking for the gate, he could spend an eternity down there looking for something that doesn't exist, thereby making the other gates safer. Moreover, if something powerful enough were roaming the pyramid in search of the gate, the Draketooths could put it in a collision course with Xykon and one of the threats would be eliminated without any Draketooth having to risk their lives directly.

[erikun]

Anyone who made it to that point should start to take the pyramid apart, search it an inch by an inch, open up the walls, ceilings and floors, from bottom to top. And if that is done, they should dig below it. And only then move on.
Note that pyramids are not hollow (http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/pyramid-17.jpg). Anything that isn't a passageway is intentionally solid stone. Even with a lot of passages and misdirections, you're still looking at a literally man-made mountain with a few caves and tunnels. Anybody with the manpower to literally tear apart a mountain piece-by-piece and dig through its remains is going to find the gate regardless of where it's located, assuming that it is anywhere within the desert. (And I don't think the gates are mobile.)

For anyone else, though, tearing apart the pyramid is a project of years, possibly decades, or work. With time like that, either somebody has noticed the activity and come to stop them, or there isn't any help coming.


I note Malack is still looking at the block with the same satisfied grin he had when he said it seemed fairly straight-forward to him. It's possible the weaker spells Z and Durkula cast didn't see anything, and the Malack did, but simply intends to report the finding to Tarquin rather than Nale. Not sure if what he saw was necessarily the Gate, but he seems to be seeing the others aren't, else why keep looking at it?
I doubt he saw anything beyond what everyone else saw, or what the readers saw. I think he's just canny enough to recognize it as a potential decoy, rather than take it at face value like Nale did.

Or maybe he's just amused at all the hassle Nale went through, to locate a giant block of stone.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think Girard's paladin-specific misdirection began and ended with the illusion in the middle of the desert.

[Math_Mage]

I completely agree with Kornaki. The deception Girard is working here is influencing the viewer to choose between "It's here" or "It's in another pyramid." "It's not in a pyramid at all" is a possibility, but is (a) annoying for the narrative, and (b) vulnerable without the protection of the pyramid's defenses. Far more likely IMO is "It's in this pyramid, but not here."

[King of Nowhere]

Just to play devil's advocate to you, King of Nowhere, we know that the Draketooths were eating in this one. We don't know that they were living solely in this one, so other pyramids are a reasonable possibility. If it is straightforward (I doubt it, but let's just say it is), then this pyramid is basically a giant obstacle designed to wear invaders down and expend their resources while who knows how many other pyramids full of Draketooths are waiting to finish the job.

If the Gate were in a different pyramid, then this would actually be a pretty smart move.

I don't think they lived in one pyramid and eat in another. it would be quite uncomfortable and serve no purpose whatsoever. Well, except to misddirect on which was their headquarter in case someone wiped the whole clan with a familicide spell cast at lunchtime, but I doubt they planned for THAT evenience...
Andd as for hiding, I don't believe in aftermath smartness. If they found your secret underground room, and then knock down the wall leding to the secret passage, and then found the concealed safe and cracked it, you will think "I should just have put all this stuff for misdirection and just hide the thing in a tomato can", but you're only thinking like that because they're already there. If they managed to find all that stuff, they would have surely found whatever you're hiding in the tomato can much easier. And someone sooner or later could have just opened the can by accident, which doesn't apply to the underground lair.
All this is a complex metaphor to argue that putting the gate elsewhere seem a brilliant misdirection now, that the oots and lg are already in the sancta sanctorum. But really, if the gate was in another pyramid, it would have been no more difficult to find. The oots could have just stumbled upon that pyramid first. The pyramid was already well hidden, and wherever the gate is inside the pyramid is already well hidden and defended even once the pyramid is found, and the gate would not be better hidden at all if it was elsewhere.
And if they made other pyramids, they should absolutely NOT advertise their existence: just let people wonder under which wall the gate could be hidden, unsuspecting that there is another pyramid in the valley just out of the range of their true sight. If you hid the gate in another pyramid, you want people to stay in this one as long as possible.

Also, as the resources available are limited, I think it would be more effective, rather than making many pyramids, to make just one bigger pyramid. After all, if one comes looking for the gate, and don't find it in one, he's going to find the others for sure.

EDIT: I expand a bit the concept of "another pyramid would not be safer".
If there was another pyramid in the same valley, it would be easy to locate with true sight. not much place to search. And if the invaders managed to storm the first pyramid, they will surely managed the second too, and more easily as the draketooths would be already dealt with.
If, instead, the gate is someewhere else in the desert, and the draketooths were living away from it in case someone was divining on them (the way nale found them), then someone stranded in the desert will eventually hit an invisible wall, realize there's something hidden, and sell his story to any adventurer willing to listen. Or mmaybe some wizard will detect the magics. Or some magical creature like celia would pass by and have the ability to feel it. In any case, the gate would eventually be discovered, and it would not be protected by anyone.

[DaggerPen]

Note that pyramids are not hollow (http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/pyramid-17.jpg). Anything that isn't a passageway is intentionally solid stone. Even with a lot of passages and misdirections, you're still looking at a literally man-made mountain with a few caves and tunnels. Anybody with the manpower to literally tear apart a mountain piece-by-piece and dig through its remains is going to find the gate regardless of where it's located, assuming that it is anywhere within the desert. (And I don't think the gates are mobile.)

Weight-relieving chambers completely unconnected to the rest of the passages, eh? Awfully high up for the "V stumbling into it" theory, but not a bad place to hide the Gate with enough room to get at it via Passwall or something similar if necessity dictated.

[Chessgeek]

Look, I don't know about Kornaki, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to spend any more time around a gazebo (https://web.duke.edu/DRAGO/humor/gazebo.html) than strictly necessary.

As for the bluffing potential, I personally wouldn't be inclined to have my entire family guarding a well trapped and illusioned decoy to something that important. But Girard is a bit more bold when it comes to defensive tactics, and obviously knew more of his ability with illusions than we do.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I'm good at hiding things and keeping them hidden. It's reasonable to assume that Girard was as well. The first rule of hiding things? Don't put them where people will look. If you're hiding your jewelry at home, don't put it in drawers, not even in a false-bottom of a drawer - people know to look for things like that. Put it inside of a large speaker. Put it inside of a fake can of tomatoes in your pantry. Hide it where someone isn't going to look, not in the most obvious and fortified part of your house.

The pyramid serves multiple purposes. It was hidden and fortified, but it is also the obvious place to look. If you were to try to hide something within the pyramid, choosing the center chamber, the chamber which all the hallways are apparently leading to, is a terrible idea. It might be strongly fortified, but that's like a large bank vault - it's protected but it's not hidden. To hide the gate you want to put it somewhere that people won't look even if they see it, like in a series of tunnels hidden behind a trap that people want to avoid.

Exactly, its like a Shell Game. A pyramid, not matter how large and well defended, is like a bank vault, people will look there, and if enough force is applied, they will find it. Why do that when you can put it in a random part of the desert five miles away? Considering how nobody can get this far without the clan's notice, and that even if they somehow got to the gate it would take months to utilize it, this implies that it is far safer to make it hidden discreetly.

[Math_Mage]

Exactly, its like a Shell Game. A pyramid, not matter how large and well defended, is like a bank vault, people will look there, and if enough force is applied, they will find it. Why do that when you can put it in a random part of the desert five miles away? Considering how nobody can get this far without the clan's notice, and that even if they somehow got to the gate it would take months to utilize it, this implies that it is far safer to make it hidden discreetly.

You don't put it in a random part of the desert five miles away because it's not defended there. If you can make it hidden AND defended, that's a superior alternative.

[Lvl45DM!]

Exactly, its like a Shell Game. A pyramid, not matter how large and well defended, is like a bank vault, people will look there, and if enough force is applied, they will find it. Why do that when you can put it in a random part of the desert five miles away? Considering how nobody can get this far without the clan's notice, and that even if they somehow got to the gate it would take months to utilize it, this implies that it is far safer to make it hidden discreetly.

Its not like a bank vault. Its like the vault of a secret invisible bank miles away from civilization surrounded by difficult terrain, that has its own personal army.

[Phantom Thief]

We don't know how big Windy Canyon is or how big the Draketooth Clan had gotten. Its very possible that they have enough members to hold multiple fortresses in the Canyon, plus if a team looking for the Gate stumbles upon one, the rest of the pyramids get a heads up that there is a threat.

Anyone who has played Diablo II, think of the penultimate quest of Act II. Imagine if you didnt know which of 8 heavily guarded tombs was the right one to explore, and if the thing you were looking for was in a secret chamber adjacent to the "final room", and you didnt get a tip off on which way you were supposed to be going. Even the Wanderer would have said "**** it" and just let Baal rot.

[WindStruck]

I don't think it matters what the stone says at all, really, because clearly its purpose was to be seen, which should tell you something.

My money is on that the gate is in fact somewhere in the vicinity of the whole ziggurat. But whether or not it is actually within or under that giant block, hidden in some random section of the walls with 20 feet of stone blocking every direction, or under a hundred feet of sand somewhere nearby outside are all possibilities.

I will say it just seems pointless to have the whole clan defending something that's not there at all. Way too much effort and resources for a giant ruse. Low budget, low-effort deceptions are better for complete red herrings. So... it's gotta be somewhere. At least, somewhere close enough for Xykon to trigger the oracle's 1000 foot proximity prophecy.

[Forbiddenwar]

It's the "phylactory as a grain of sand in the desert" strategy. There is nothing, literally nothing, that can be done to find the gate other than scour through every sand dune in a desert that spans most of a continent.

The problem with this approach, the 1 in a million chance of ever finding it approach, is that all adventurers know that a 1 in a million chance is a sure thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

Girard, being an adventuring type, knows this and would never hide a gate this way. It essentially guarantees an adventuring party will trip over it accidentally.

Burying it underneath the room, with no way in or out and a 1 in a million chance of finding it also guarantees someone will find it easily.

So my money is on the last ditch effort double bluff. For when you absolutely have nothing left to lose.


Hmmm, if the Gate is actually inside the stone, is there a way to destroy the stone without touching the Gate ? The one in Azure City was pretty small, if this one is of the same size, it seems tricky to get it undamaged.

Soften Earth and Stone. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm)

[factotum]

I will say it just seems pointless to have the whole clan defending something that's not there at all.

How do you know the whole clan was in this pyramid? We haven't seen the other pyramids (and there must *be* other pyramids, or the message would be an obvious fake and easily seen through), so we don't know who or what is in them.

[Copperdragon]

(and there must *be* other pyramids, or the message would be an obvious fake and easily seen through), so we don't know who or what is in them.

Why? This one was invisible as well, who tells you there "have to" be other pyramids? If you do not see them, you cannot easily they are not there. And even if you searched the entire desert, maybe even with magic, you still cannot be sure there's nothing there that is even better hidden or buried or whatever.

[Lvl45DM!]

Why? This one was invisible as well, who tells you there "have to" be other pyramids? If you do not see them, you cannot easily they are not there. And even if you searched the entire desert, maybe even with magic, you still cannot be sure there's nothing there that is even better hidden or buried or whatever.

What this guy said.

[ZerglingOne]

Everyone in the current Linear Guild party is lawful. Likely to take a written bluff at face value.

We know that there's a really good chance Girard has plenty of defenses geared specifically toward Lawful intruders. Unless the Draketooth family was inordinately large, why would they all be defending a fake? Why would there be an epic mind trap? It just doesn't make sense.

If the main pyramid could be found so easily, why would they leave the gate relatively undefended?

[Lvl45DM!]

Its unclear what alignment Z is. I lean towards NE to be honest but it doesn't really matter.

[Copperdragon]

If the main pyramid could be found so easily, why would they leave the gate relatively undefended?

Easy?
First, you need to know where you look.
Second, you need to make your way through the Windy Canyon, which usually would have other illusions going.
Third, you need to find the exit from Windy Canyon, which even with Clan Draketooth dead, was only possible because Belkar had scent and the Draketooths stank.
Fourth, you need to find the pyramid, which was possible because the group looking for it already had access to reletively powerful magic.

Then, Sixth to 100th, you need to make your way through the pyramid, which would have been much harder with the Clan and all the magic active.

I doubt "easy" is the word that needs to get used here.

And if the Gate is here, it would not have been "undefended". See "Sixth to 100th".

[Lamech]

I doubt the gate is not here. Its a temple filled with illusions and protections. That said, hiding the gate inside a wall, is probably a good plan. Everyone is searching for something inside the temple's rooms. They aren't dismantling the temple. And its a temple filled with illusions, so even if you clear it out well, you just need to search better.

And while the rule of funny/drama may disagree, the gate is probably not in that block. Under it would be a better choice.

[Jay R]

Don't forget the possibility that this is a reference to a situation in a Mario brothers game.

Sometimes a joke is ... just a joke.

[pgrmdave]

Exactly, its like a Shell Game. A pyramid, not matter how large and well defended, is like a bank vault, people will look there, and if enough force is applied, they will find it. Why do that when you can put it in a random part of the desert five miles away? Considering how nobody can get this far without the clan's notice, and that even if they somehow got to the gate it would take months to utilize it, this implies that it is far safer to make it hidden discreetly.

The goal isn't just to hide it though - hiding it is a means to protecting it. Putting it in a well-defended place and *also* hiding it is better than doing only one or the other. If the gate isn't in the pyramid, they risk the chance of someone finding it and being unable to defend it. If the gate were in the center of the pyramid, they risk being defeated and leaving it vulnerable. In an ideal situation you would put the thing in a hidden place within a well-defended place.

In my earlier examples I talked about hiding jewelry - but you would still always hide it within your home, and you'd lock your front door, and you'd defend your home (to the extent that you could). Hiding something is the last line of defense, not the first.

[Fish]

That's good logic.

Now, I would go one step further: this chamber seems to be central in the pyramid, the deepest place and the most logical area to find it. It's therefore the last room I'd hide it in, especially as it's something I never expect to use myself. Unlike jewelry or silverware, the Gate need not be accessible or convenient.

This chamber is the perfect place for the "F you, it's not here" message, though. You put a message like that where adventurers are likely to find it: hence, in the central chamber. In your jewelry analogy, you put the note in the safe.

[CowardlyPaladin]

You don't put it in a random part of the desert five miles away because it's not defended there. If you can make it hidden AND defended, that's a superior alternative.

It is defended, any enemy who gets to this part of the of the desert will call the attention of the clan, and its not like somebody can get to the gate and unlock its power in like five mins. Just put some illusion spells to make it not obvious and anybody going in the are going to be stopped by the clan. Unlike they all died inconviently...

To use the house metaphor, this would be like burying my jewlery under my porch and then having my house be highly guarded. Robbers will have to try to get past the security and get to the vault in the center of my house, never imagining that my money is 3 feet underground. Obviously that problem with that plan is what if I want to bu ysomething, but the clan doesn't need to use the gate, just protect it.

[Math_Mage]

It is defended, any enemy who gets to this part of the of the desert will call the attention of the clan, and its not like somebody can get to the gate and unlock its power in like five mins. Just put some illusion spells to make it not obvious and anybody going in the are going to be stopped by the clan. Unlike they all died inconviently...

To use the house metaphor, this would be like burying my jewlery under my porch and then having my house be highly guarded. Robbers will have to try to get past the security and get to the vault in the center of my house, never imagining that my money is 3 feet underground. Obviously that problem with that plan is what if I want to bu ysomething, but the clan doesn't need to use the gate, just protect it.

So, you used the house metaphor and ended up with the conclusion that it's under the porch. Which translates back to 'underground in the close vicinity of the pyramid'. Y'know, like where V is? Five miles away is at least across the street.

You set up illusion spells around an actual Gate location five miles away, suddenly it's not very well hidden anymore, not to people who detect magic. Set it up under your actual defenses, it gets lost in the noise of pyramid defense.

[RadagastTheBrow]

It's in the ceiling. Nobody ever looks up...

[Fish]

To use the house metaphor, this would be like burying my jewlery under my porch and then having my house be highly guarded.
If, perhaps, your house were visible, well-lit, and richly decorated. That would serve as a lure, I agree.

This "house" is out in the countryside, hidden in a valley, protected against divination magic, approachable only via a complex maze of canyons, with no listed address and no deliveries, and invisible.

Forgive me, but it doesn't sound like it was meant to be a lure. A lure lures, by definition of the word. At the very least, a thief would have to know of the gate, know it existed, and expect it to be guarded, for it to be a lure. The message-bomb in the desert was more a lure than this pyramid, because at least Girard told somebody where it was.

[Bezzerker]

Personally, I think the solution will be closer to the one used in the Full Metal Alchemist series by Father.

The two country-spanning transmutation circles Father set up had the true "center" of the circle be slightly off from what people expected the centers to be.

So my question would be, is the room the OotS and the LG currently in actually the center of the pyramid?

[warrl]

There are three pyramids, labelled "One", "Two", and "Four".

Great idea, but the "Two" pyramid is an unnecessary expense.

[warrl]

I'm good at hiding things and keeping them hidden.

The problem occurs when you want to find them again. :wink:

[prism6691]

In terms of whether the gate is actually there or at another location, in 833 Redcloak specifically mentions they need to go to Windy Canyon. So we can infer that Girard told Serini it was there. Now whether or not he told her the truth is another matter entirely.

[CowardlyPaladin]

If, perhaps, your house were visible, well-lit, and richly decorated. That would serve as a lure, I agree.

This "house" is out in the countryside, hidden in a valley, protected against divination magic, approachable only via a complex maze of canyons, with no listed address and no deliveries, and invisible.

Forgive me, but it doesn't sound like it was meant to be a lure. A lure lures, by definition of the word. At the very least, a thief would have to know of the gate, know it existed, and expect it to be guarded, for it to be a lure. The message-bomb in the desert was more a lure than this pyramid, because at least Girard told somebody where it was.

But bear in mind, anybody coming to my remote safe house is expecting something obscure and and hidden, and they will go into the safe house to find it. people looking through the desert will be on the look out for a structure of some kind. And frankly if LG/OOTS didn't have a time constraint, wouldn't they just search the temple in its entirity?

[pendell]

Congratulations to all who guessed double-bluff. As of 895 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0895.html) , that answer is correct.

Looks like my own plan of "let the sneaky person figure it out" would have worked as well. Haley instantly guessed double-bluff, and she was right. The sign was a lie. Of course. The lawfuls all believed it on instinct. But not Haley, who's chaotic, or Roy, who's smart and can learn from experience.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

While all the arguments about hiding the valuables in your garden instead of in your home are good, there is always the chance of someone getting the exact position of the gate by some epic divination. After all, if you are to defend the gates, you must take into account epic treaths.
In which case, hiding the gate outside the pyramid would give the invader the chance to get it easily. on the other hand, if it is inside, the draketooths can use the maze to their advantage to help in the defence.
Seen that way, the pyramid is a last defence in case someone managed to divine the position of the gate by independent informations.

Also, I'm wondering about girard's buttcheeks. Maybe the gate is exactly below girard's tomb, and the positioning was devised to allow misdirection against speak with dead.

[pearl jam]

You have noticed the new comic, right? Are you simply speculating about the position of this room in relation to the statue?

Personally, I think the "butt cheeks" reference was just a joke.:smallwink:

[quasit]

Well, Girard was trully honest in the end : their gate was in another pyramid castle that was reduced to debris. HIS is there, in front of them :wink:

[Skarn]

I suppose the part where we went off track is that there's no need to hide the gate further. The pyramid is built like a fortress to begin with, and I doubt Girard would've accounted for this scenario, where the pyramid has been found and the clan is dead. The hallway they passed before was probably Girard's best illusion; normally no one would get past it, or if they did the use of further illusions would be pointless.

The sign was a double-bluff as a last-ditch deterrent; the trick is that anyone who got this far would expect it to be protected by a magical illusion rather than a physical one. The lead sheet ensured that someone using magical detection would still think this was exactly what it appears to be. And of course the Linear Guild relies on magic almost completely.

To be fair, Roy has an advantage in that he can tell whether a pillar is load-bearing or not. Anyone else who even considered this would need to either find such an expert first, or risk dropping the pyramid on themselves in the process of testing it.

[Fish]

people looking through the desert will be on the look out for a structure of some kind.
Yes. Like a Gate.

Girard can't move it underground. He can't bury it in sand because it wouldn't stay buried (see "windy canyon"). So he built around it, and made the structure invisible and deadly, then guarded it.

So suppose you're a bad guy looking for the Gate. You look around the desert for hidden objects. You find a Gate and a big invisible deathtrap. Which do you thoroughly investigate first: the big deathtrap that is far away, or the thing you were looking for?

If the bad guys can find an invisible pyramid, assume they can also find an invisible Gate.

[ManuelSacha]

To be fair, Roy has an advantage in that he can tell whether a pillar is load-bearing or not.

"THAT's how I use my Intelligence score [...], DUMBASS!!"

[CowardlyPaladin]

ah good show, turns out I was wrong

[jere7my]

Also, I'm wondering about girard's buttcheeks. Maybe the gate is exactly below girard's tomb, and the positioning was devised to allow misdirection against speak with dead.

No misdirection needed. "Rift" is, loosely, a synonym for "buttcrack". Roy was trying to ask "Where is the rift Girard set up to seal the gate?" but the corpse deliberately misinterpreted it as "Where is Girard's buttcrack?" and answered appropriately.

[Anteros]

To be fair, I don't think even Nale would really be stupid enough to not at least CHECK the wall to see if it's a bluff...plot induced stupidity aside of course.

[Lvl45DM!]

To be fair, I don't think even Nale would really be stupid enough to not at least CHECK the wall to see if it's a bluff...plot induced stupidity aside of course.

He DID check. However he has 3 casters with him and he's not that buff. He assumed magic was his advantage so he used only magic. It's a trap one falls into from overconfidence. Which is a known character trait of his. So how is it plot induced rather than character induced?

[Anteros]

It just seems uncharacteristically stupid even for him to not be more thorough. The story demands it though, so it's acceptable.

The known trickster leaves you a note saying that what you're looking for isn't here, so you immediately decide to leave rather than thoroughly checking everything in the vicinity? I know Nale is dumb, but c'mon...

[The Giant]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

[Anteros]

Well, none. That's why I stated it was ok since it was for story purposes. Sorry if my comment offended.

[Jay R]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

As many as you like. It's always funny.

[Having said that, I have no problem with Nale trusting the magic of his team, which he foolishly believes is on his side.]

[The Giant]

Well, none. That's why I stated it was ok since it was for story purposes. Sorry if my comment offended.

It didn't. But I had just posted the exact same sentence in another thread, and the situation seemed to be the same.

At any rate, it's less that he didn't spend time searching more thoroughly because the story demanded that he be dumb, so much as it is that I didn't show more panels of him searching more thoroughly because I wanted to preserve the reveal of Girard's message as that strip's punchline. You can presume that Nale and Z also (for example) searched for secret doors or cast another divination spell or whatever between panels 5 and 6 of that strip; it doesn't change anything about the comic. I originally planned on having Z cast Detect Secret Doors, too, but I decided one spell each was enough to get the message across.

[WindStruck]

You know, it could still be a possibility that this gate that Roy just revealed by chipping away at the block is a fake. Possibly an illusion still. Plus another death trap.

I think Girard really would have outdone himself if this was the case, and the real gate was in some other obscure, in inaccessible place no one would find.

[Tragak]

You know, it could still be a possibility that this gate that Roy just revealed by chipping away at the block is a fake. Possibly an illusion still. Plus another death trap.

I think Girard really would have outdone himself if this was the case, and the real gate was in some other obscure, in inaccessible place no one would find. Triple Bluff! TRIPLE BLUFF!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0891.html)

[Forbiddenwar]

You know, it could still be a possibility that this gate that Roy just revealed by chipping away at the block is a fake. Possibly an illusion still. Plus another death trap.

I think Girard really would have outdone himself if this was the case, and the real gate was in some other obscure, in inaccessible place no one would find.

As I have posted elsewhere, the problem of hiding anything "where no one would find it" is that, in the OOTS world, a one in a million chance of something happening is a sure thing. Probabilities do not work in the OOTS world (or, for that manner, in D&D) like it does in the real world.

In this case, if a gate was hidden where no one who was looking for it could find it, then most likely it would have been found and accidentally destroyed by some hapless dirt farmer.

The OOTS world also has characters who are aware of the strange laws of probability in their world. Which means only if Girard wanted to insure that it would be found would he hide it "where no one can find it"

Sounds strange, but I can't any other way around it. Unless Girard didn't know that Action A (hiding something where no one could possibly find it) guarantees Event B (someone finding it anyway).

[WindStruck]

As I have posted elsewhere, the problem of hiding anything "where no one would find it" is that, in the OOTS world, a one in a million chance of something happening is a sure thing. Probabilities do not work in the OOTS world (or, for that manner, in D&D) like it does in the real world.

In this case, if a gate was hidden where no one who was looking for it could find it, then most likely it would have been found and accidentally destroyed by some hapless dirt farmer.

The OOTS world also has characters who are aware of the strange laws of probability in their world. Which means only if Girard wanted to insure that it would be found would he hide it "where no one can find it"

Sounds strange, but I can't any other way around it. Unless Girard didn't know that Action A (hiding something where no one could possibly find it) guarantees Event B (someone finding it anyway).

And the problem with that reasoning is that, more often than you think, the events in OOTS do not always cave in to the use of hackneyed tropes.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html

[pendell]

It didn't. But I had just posted the exact same sentence in another thread, and the situation seemed to be the same.

At any rate, it's less that he didn't spend time searching more thoroughly because the story demanded that he be dumb, so much as it is that I didn't show more panels of him searching more thoroughly because I wanted to preserve the reveal of Girard's message as that strip's punchline. You can presume that Nale and Z also (for example) searched for secret doors or cast another divination spell or whatever between panels 5 and 6 of that strip; it doesn't change anything about the comic. I originally planned on having Z cast Detect Secret Doors, too, but I decided one spell each was enough to get the message across.

Purely for the sake of storytelling feedback, that was not the message *I* took from 894.

I had the impression that Nale more or less believed the message and undertook a pro forma double check to verify the truthfulness of the message, but never in his heart doubted, once he saw the message, that he'd been tricked and the gate was elsewhere. I did not take from the single panel that Nale and his party had done a thorough search and examination using detect secret doors et al before finally giving up.

Two or three panels would have better communicated "thorough search" -- but then, if you'd done that you'd have either had to lengthen the strip or add an additional strip to show the additional panels. And would that have measurably improved the story? Or would it have just wasted time and thumb-power when what you did was more than adequate to communicate "Nale searched and failed"?

Given the choice between additional panels showing a failed tactic and continuing the story, I think the second option is probably the better choice. Since this is the choice you made, I have no complaints :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.