[3.5] Challenging a Party of Six

[Scarce]

So as a DM, I'm roughly midway through my first full campaign, set in an Eberron-like world of my own design. My problem is that three friends at the table quickly became six, and I'm afraid combat has started to become a drag. The party:

Artificer 5, Renegade Mastermaker 2 (wand-blastificer)
Druid 5, Landforged Walker 2 (beeforged, woefully underpowered)
Goliath Barbarian 5, Warblade 1 (reach fighter, tank)
Paladin 6, Gray Guard 1 (tank, uses powerful magic sword)
Swordsage 6 (glass cannon)
Bard 7 (face)

The group's tactics have become reckless, and I feel that probably stems from not being threatened by enemies. Single baddies with a high CR seem to get surrounded and killed in two rounds, while crowds either slow down the game too much (taking hours in combat sometimes) or get massacred.

How best to challenge my party?

I feel like I need to give them some hard encounters to put the DM-fear in them. Is this a wrong instinct?

What enemies specifically would the seasoned members of GitP recommend against this many PCs?

[buttcyst]

read the art of war and use it, particularly about the divide and conquer bit.

[hymer]

Is it a wrong instinct... Well, are they having fun? Are you? If you all are, then it's probably a wrong instinct. But if you need to shake things up a bit, make sure to warn them beforehand.

Some thoughts:
Instead of large groups of enemies or a single strong enemy, try three enemies of moderate power (say, two monsters at party's CR and the last critter one below). Use AoE attacks liberally. Let the terrain be your help, it's harder to gang up on someone blocking a corridor with their body, or reach someone shooting from a ledge.
Another thing you can do is do a large bunch of simple foes with so little hp that they tend to die in one blow. Goblins with bows, for example - give them a penalty in Con. Spread them out and have them ploink away.

Edit: Let me clarify the 'party's CR' business, since that was less than clear. What I meant is that the party's average level right now seems to be 6. So two CR 6 monsters and a CR 5 (for a total CR of about 8.5) should be decent. The individuals aren't too mighty, and they're not out-actioned six to one. They ought to be able to get in a few decent attacks before going down.

[Harlot]

Not a seasoned member, but here goes:

One thing I've used is flexible ECL - starting out with, say, 2 creatures, and then adding more and more, attacking in 'waves'. My favorite, I must admit, is Blink Dogs, as they can teleport in and land in the middle of the battle grid, preferably next to some wizard(!). So when the players think they've almost won, send in another wave. This works, but should not be used too often.

Then there's the exhausion tactics - continuous attacks of some low level creatures like orcs or goblins - let them attack every two hours = no rest for the magic users, no spell regeneration overnight.

Or maybe using enemies able to take out some of the group during combat? Like casters using glitterdust, blindness, maybe poison etc that temporarily halves the number of players active in combat?

But with six players all active during combat, each round will take forever. Have the PC's complained about it, or does it only bother you? If the group is content, then why change it. To some players, combat is the highlight of the session, the storyline being less important.


To speed up combat itself, let them roll attack and damage at the same time. IF they hit, you have already rolled damage and don't have to spend those 5 seconds for the player to roll it.

New idea: Could you use a timer IRL?, stating: "You have 15 seconds to tell me exactly what you do in your turn, do it and roll it. If you can't manage that, you lose your turn." Thus the players would REALLY have to plan in advance, look up the proper spells, damage etc during the other PC's turns, so the rest of you don't have to wait around for the magic users (in particular) to get their s**t together.

[Gemini476]

I think that I read something about a doubling of the number of creatures being +2 to the CR - that would lead to your party having a CR of 12. Remember that a Challenge Rating equal to the parties is supposed to be a 50/50 chance of success - something that might actually be true when pairing 6th level spells with 4th.

Then again, WotC really had no idea what they were doing when they made the CR system.

[Der_DWSage]

Being a player in a game of ten folks myself, there's three things I have to recommend.

1)If you have a single opponent, action economy is really working against them. Give them the 2e version of Haste, where they can take a full second attack or spell every round, along with quickened spell. And hey, throw Celerity in there too. The heroes get to gang up 6 on one-the least you can do is throw 4 actions back!

2)The best way to deal with a large party...is another party, frankly. Look in the Player's Handbook 2 for guidelines on quickly generating levelled characters. It'll make the fights more memorable if their opponents have class features beyond 'Thog hit with club,' and you'll feel like you're challenging them more.

3)Throw unusual challenges at them. It sounds like they have very little ranged support-have you tried throwing flying things at them, and letting the Blastificer save the day? Or perhaps ghosts and other baddies with a 50% miss chance? How about mages with Stoneskin prepared? Don't challenge their strengths, unless you're intentionally trying to make them feel powerful. Challenge their weaknesses.

4)I'm going to have to throw a disagreement to something specific Harlot said. Don't use exhaustion tactics, or at least not obvious exhaustion tactics. No one likes running on empty, and doing things like that only makes everyone feel irritable and that their time is being wasted. Instead, make it a race or time limit where they simply can't stop. It sounds like only two party members really have to worry about conserving things, too. It's the same general effect, but they'll feel like it's another challenge rather than a GM pokefest.

5)Remember above all else-have fun. If you're not having fun, or they're not having fun, that's the only time when something is truly wrong. If everyone's happy, then screw the rules. You're an adventurer/GM.

[Azoth]

My knee jerk reaction is to have you look up Tucker's Kobolds and then apply the lesson learned to a different enemy. The basics of which are to simply play monsters according to their intelligence and strengths. That is however, not always the best thing to do. I am a bit of a bastard DM, and my players expect it. Yours may rage quit over it.

In all honesty though, you should simply try to start setting the stage against the players by degrees and seeing how it works. The easiest way is to use terrain against them. Limit the field of battle so blasting is a tough choice (don't want to fry the party), or they can't surround the enemy. Then try tactics, hit and run is mean, flying creatures with bows, ambushes (day or night), specialist teams that work in high sync with one another (caster dropping a fog spell coupled with a barbarian who has Pierce Magical Concealment). If these don't work well, then simply bring out bigger badder monsters (not ones far above appropriate for the group), an example would be a Mineral Warrior or Greenbound Troll (CR6 or 7 depending on template) with max HP and none of the generic feats in the monster entry aside racial bonus ones. That monster would have considerable health, increased AC, DR against attacks, regenration, and hit harder than before in an unexpected way (due to your feat choices).

[Harlot]

I think that I read something about a doubling of the number of creatures being +2 to the CR - that would lead to your party having a CR of 12. Remember that a Challenge Rating equal to the parties is supposed to be a 50/50 chance of success - something that might actually be true when pairing 6th level spells with 4th.

Yes the whole CR system seems kind of wobbly. I run a party of only 3 PC's and have had to raise EL by at least 2.

Look at DMG table 3.1.
Your party of 6 level 6 PCs should fit EL 11 = 4 level 10 monsters = plenty of options.


Don't use exhaustion tactics, or at least not obvious exhaustion tactics. No one likes running on empty, and doing things like that only makes everyone feel irritable and that their time is being wasted. Instead, make it a race or time limit where they simply can't stop. It sounds like only two party members really have to worry about conserving things, too. It's the same general effect, but they'll feel like it's another challenge rather than a GM pokefest.

Well, it was about challenging them and exhausion IS a challenge. Scarce says his PC's are overconfident, and this tactics would make them sweat - while maybe annoyed too :-)
THAT being said I reluctantly agree with you, Der_DWSage (!) The time race is an even better idea. And remember to make exhausion apply to all players., whichever tactics you use. It's not just spellcaster who are troubled by lack of sleep.
You can houserule that players get fatigued after missing sleep, running for prolonged periods of time etc.. For inspiration, look here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?296024-Question-on-Resting-Fatigue-3-5)
For fatigue itself - look here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fatigued)

[drax75]

I use to have a large group of friends in College and by large i mean 13 people large.

We use to run 8-12 people DnD Games, what does this mean to you? You think 6 people is hard.... try 8-12.

Suggestions? Use all the way people above me have suggested, use terrain like tight corridors, us massive waves of creatures (yes it will slow down your night but if you impose a time limit you can try and force/push people to move through their turns), Another thing i find useful as a DM? Ignore Monster HP totals in the book.

For example you want your party to Battle a Red Dragon, just because it might say it has 200 HP and 30 or something AC doesn't mean your Dragon has too.

You can choose to artificially enhance the creature and not mess with the CL/CR, remember your god and your dragon doesn't die until you want it too.

I once through a Wall from Final Fantasy at my party of 4 they were optimized to hell and i forced them to do 420 damage the thing and gave it a 25 ac and Basically Spell Resistance of 50. it took them several rounds and as i felt my part start to grind down i decided who in the group i wanted to kill it, and let them land the killing blow (assuming they rolled high enough to hit the AC).

Another good option? Splitting the party divide and conquer but that was been said, find reasons like tunnels or dungeon requirements for them to split. Some obscure lore in a cave that states "IF MORE THAN 2 PEOPLE WALK DOWN THIS HALL THEY DIE!!" and if your PC's try to break the rules, simply kill them they will learn quickly.

Traps are also good, maybe they are walking along and suddenly walls spring up out of nowhere and separate your party. Think Aliens versus Predator with the Mayan/Inca Temple under the ice.

Anyways i hope that all helps. If you need more feel free to message me.

Good Luck!

[Scarce]

Have the PC's complained about it, or does it only bother you?

It bothers me when players lose interest in combat (which even I feel occasionally becomes tedious,) wander away from the table, go get a snack, etc, and even further slow down the game. It's a discipline/patience problem on their part, as many of my players are new, but at the same time I recognize and want to fix the problem.

You offered some great ideas and I might start implementing a timer of sorts (and blink dogs are fun, after all.)

[Scarce]

My knee jerk reaction is to have you look up Tucker's Kobolds and then apply the lesson learned to a different enemy.

Ha! The reason I started this thread was because in my last session I decided to try a Tucker's kobolds situation (or rather a squad of Kobold hitmen, led by a kobold named Tuck-Tuck) with very similar tactics and was woefully disappointed with the results. They were trounced! And the combat took so long to run something like 8 monsters with 6 PCs that even I was getting bored. This actually probably happened because I limited the number of kobolds, which ultimately made it too easy, but I couldn't justify huge numbers and muderholes and the like within the story and location.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The reason Tucker's Kobolds work is because there's an infinite supply of them. No matter how many the PCs kill, there will always be more, scurrying out of holes in the wall that are far too small for any PC to utilize, poking and burning and hindering them as they try to make their way to their ultimate goal, which has absolutely nothing to do with the kobolds themselves. Here's the proper way to use them:

A village built on a cliff overlooking the sea has been having disappearances. Locals speak of a song in the night that enchants them to their doom, and several days later their body washes up on the shore. What's actually happening is that there's one or more Harpy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/harpy.htm) Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) using Captivating Song to draw unsuspecting villagers out along the cliff away from the town. She sings as she moves, and anyone enthralled will follow until they reach her or she gets out of range.

She chooses a victim from among those she's lured, picks them up, still singing, and flies out over the ocean. Once she's a good distance from the shore she stops singing and starts drinking. If they struggle they'll fall to their death, and they're too far out for anyone to hear their screams. She drains them until near death and drops them to their doom. By the time they wash ashore they've been nibbled by fish enough that there's no longer any conclusive evidence of their fate. Nobody really knows what's going on.

The Harpy Vampire(s) rest in a cave in the cliff overlooking the ocean, about a mile down the coast from the town. The opening is very small and almost impossible to find. Within the cavern is a teeming community of kobolds, always weary of outsiders and always prepare to defend the home they've built. The Harpy Vampire(s) always enter in mist form, easily avoiding all the traps and even detection, and simply hang from the ceiling in a tall room that almost never sees visitors.

The kobolds themselves have made sure to be prepared to fight off invaders, as their paranoid high shaman has foreseen their violent end. Their main living quarters are in deep caverns, only accessible via tunnels barely large enough for a tiny size creature to squeeze through (per Slight Build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)). Along these tunnels are of course guard chambers with their most elite warriors, who invaders will most likely never even encounter. The tunnels which are accessible from the outside are deliberately built as a decoy to their main living chambers, easy for larger foes to traverse and explore. The initial entrance is a downward slope, gradually becoming steeper, and the last stretch of it is smeared with pitch so it's slick. The end of the tunnel intersects perpendicular to a very wide, deep trench going the length of a long hallway. There's a ledge along the wall of this hallway that can be used to continue on in either direction without falling.

The walls and ceiling of the initial corridor and the hallway are lined with holes for kobolds to pop out of, stabbing and throwing rocks and spears and taunting invaders to chase them further in. Once the invaders get near the end the kobolds drop bales of oil-soaked straw from the ceiling and ignite them, which then roll down the slope as wide as the corridor, chasing the invaders in further. Once the bales reach the pitch-smeared floor it ignites as well, and the invaders will have already been running so it's too late to stop. Once they reach the intersection they'll almost certainly fall over the side into the trench, which is filled with diseased stakes and rat swarms.

If they survive the fire, fall, stakes, and rats, there are a few directions they can go. The trench is easy to navigate, though it's slow due to the short stakes covering the floor and the occasional rat swarms which are drawn to light and the sounds of other rats... swarming. They may find some sort of disposal creatures in the trench, such as Otyughs, Gelatinous Cubes, and various other oozes or even Green Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm). The trench doesn't really go anywhere, so invaders will eventually have to climb out.

The ledge goes the length of the hallway, and there's one on the opposite side as well. There's an occasional log spanning the trench, though they're watched and the kobolds will throw spears from holes in the walls and ceiling, and can release a mechanism to cause the log to roll in place. There are more tunnels and rooms from the long hallway, but they're all just as hazardous, strewn with traps, and designed to make it easy for the kobolds to ambush.

[Scarce]

Wow, Biffoniacus_Furiou! It's safe to say that I'll be adapting this adventure for future use, if that is alright with you. (likely using goblins, as kobolds have become actually quite sophisticated in my game world.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wow, Biffoniacus_Furiou! It's safe to say that I'll be adapting this adventure for future use, if that is alright with you. (likely using goblins, as kobolds have become actually quite sophisticated in my game world.)

Goblins don't have the Slight Build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) trait that allows Kobolds to squeeze through diminutive-creature-size tunnels to set up flanks and ambushes, and to keep enemies from ever reaching their living areas.

I almost forgot to mention, here's a very special CR 1 Kobold opponent:
Venerable Dragonwrought Arctic Kobold Dracolich, Warrior 1
Size/Type: Small Undead (augmented dragon, augmented humanoid, dragonblood)
Hit Dice: 1d12+60 (72 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural, +4 chain shirt), touch 14, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Claw +3 melee (1d3+1 plus paralysis)
Full Attack: Two Claws +3 melee (1d3+1 plus paralysis) and Bite -2 melee (1d3 plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Control Undead, Paralyzing Gaze, Paralyzing Touch
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity, DR 5/bludgeoning, immune to polymorph, cold, and electricity, SR 16, undead traits, invulnerability
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 16, Con —, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 18
Skills: Tumble +5, Intimidate +8, Jump +5
Feats: Dragonwrought, Epic Toughness, Epic Toughness, Flaw: Skulker, Flaw: Insomniac
Environment: Tucker's Caverns
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: Chain Shirt, phylactery (in home cavern), standard (in home cavern)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

Control Undead (Sp): Once every three days, a dracolich can use control undead as the spell (caster level 15th). The dracolich cannot cast other spells while this ability is in effect.
Paralyzing Gaze (Su): The gaze of a dracolich’s glowing eyes can paralyze victims within 40 feet who fail a Fortitude save (DC 14). If the saving throw is successful, the character is forever immune to the gaze of that particular dracolich. If it fails, the victim is paralyzed for 2d6 rounds.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): A creature struck by any of a dracolich’s physical attacks must make a Fortitude save (DC 14) or be paralyzed for 2d6 rounds. A successful saving throw against this effect does not confer any immunity against subsequent attacks.
Invulnerability: If a dracolich is slain, its spirit immediately returns to its phylactery. If no dragon-type corpse lies within 90 feet for the spirit to possess, the dracolich is trapped in the phylactery until such a time—if ever—that a corpse becomes available. A dracolich is difficult to destroy. If its spirit is currently contained in its phylactery, destroying that item when a suitable corpse is not within range effectively destroys the dracolich. Likewise, an active dracolich is unable to attempt further possessions if its phylactery is destroyed. The fate of a disembodied dracolich spirit—that is, a spirit with no body or phylactery—is unknown, but presumably it is drawn to the Lower Planes.
Undead Traits: A dracolich is immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, magic sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. It is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage to its physical ability scores, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or death from massive damage. It cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if it is willing.

[Slipperychicken]

1)If you have a single opponent, action economy is really working against them. Give them the 2e version of Haste, where they can take a full second attack or spell every round, along with quickened spell. And hey, throw Celerity in there too. The heroes get to gang up 6 on one-the least you can do is throw 4 actions back!


I just want to emphasize this. The single-enemy "bossfight" doesn't work well in D&D, where actions are the most valuable resource, and a single combatant can be quickly overwhelmed with enough actions against him.

[Scarce]

I just want to emphasize this. The single-enemy "bossfight" doesn't work well in D&D, where actions are the most valuable resource, and a single combatant can be quickly overwhelmed with enough actions against him.

Here's another question, as I myself am a huge fan of having a BBEG bossfight every once in a while and want to ensure these retain their appropriate challenge:

Is is a crime to just give the boss an extra turn in the turn-order? For example, one turn at the middle and another at the end of the turn order.

Yes I know it's against the rules, but as the DM, I know those rules are malleable when fun is at stake. Is it more correct to simply give the boss more hp so he doesn't simply die in two rounds? Moving twice can let him avoid getting surrounded, but also makes PCs vulnerable to getting hit twice in a row without a chance of retaliation, which is unfair and unfun.

Thoughts?

[Slipperychicken]

Is is a crime to just give the boss an extra turn in the turn-order? For example, one turn at the middle and another at the end of the turn order.

Thoughts?

I once played a game where the DM did that. It felt somewhat video-gamey, but also appropriate (more appropriate than just curbstomping the boss, anyway). The number of actions the boss got would have killed at least one PC if he hadn't been wasting them all over the place. That DM made a lot of bone-headed houserules, but this one was pretty decent.


So yeah, it works like one would imagine, but be careful with it, because it might well be an overpowering buff. Maybe run some DPR math on it to know what you're getting into. It's also a good idea to clear this sort of thing with players first ("hey guys, I wanted to include some bossfights in the campaign, although the action-economy poses some issues. Would any of you mind if I gave the bosses some extra actions so they stay competitive?").

[Harlot]

Could this work (duplicating the BBEG)?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Duplicate

Oh, and I had to laugh reading this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Book_of_3.5e_Tricks_(3.5e_Other)

But you know what: This discussion is moot. What you have is a discipline problem in the group, and I think you'll have that regardsless of the challenges you throw at them, simply because combat DOES take time with a group of 6 players.

It bothers you, and that's fair. Their behavior is disrespectful.

So first of all, maybe you should just talk to them if you haven't already. Tell them it annoys you. A lot. Ask them for suggestions as to how to solve it.
If you've already tried that and it didn't work, discipline them:

DM: "You were not present at the table when that happened, so your character can't react to that. He 'does nothing' this round."
Bard: "But I am surrounded by 4 Blink Dogs. OFCOURSE I know they're there, and react."
DM: "Nope, when the gamer wanders off, the characters mind wanders off as well. You do nothing. And now it's the Blink Dogs turn. Muahahahahahaha!!!"