Why was the LG delayed? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ron Miel

2013-06-18, 01:50 AM

Question.

The Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html)and The Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html)set off at about the same time, more or less.

The Order got trapped in an illusion, for several hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html).

Only Nale got trapped in the illusion, according to The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415212&postcount=323). It doesn't look like it held him for long.

Yet both parties arrive at the destination at about the same time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0892.html). Thertefore something delayed the LG for several hours. What was it?

Was Nale trapped for hours, and the others stood around waiting for him? It doesn't look like it.

Porthos

2013-06-18, 01:54 AM

SaintRidley

2013-06-18, 02:09 AM

Another potential option is Durkon did get to replenish spells after his transformation (or he had left some slots empty before dying with an eye toward using them for emergency preparation of some low-level utility spells should hte need arise, and Malack told him what to put in those slots).

Also, just going a completely different way and having to deal with the whole mess of traps and such hanging out on that path.

CRtwenty

2013-06-18, 02:28 AM

They took a different route, and unlike the Order are currently without a member cabable of disarming mechanical traps. It's no surprise they got slowed down.

The Giant

2013-06-18, 02:53 AM

They took a different route, and unlike the Order are currently without a member cabable of disarming mechanical traps. It's no surprise they got slowed down.

This. Imagine Nale taking 20 on every Search and Disable Device check for the whole trip down.

TheCountAlucard

2013-06-18, 02:55 AM

This. Imagine Nale taking 20 on every Search and Disable Device check for the whole trip down.Rather, taking 20 on the Search check; were he to take 20 on the DD check, it'd trigger the trap nineteen times first, which is… unwise.

Nilehus

2013-06-18, 03:06 AM

But hilarious. That is exactly how it happened to me now.

Copperdragon

2013-06-18, 07:06 AM

Rather, taking 20 on the Search check; were he to take 20 on the DD check, it'd trigger the trap nineteen times first, which is… unwise.

Who cares? He has enough ressources to keep him up and running. I think the potion we saw him drink wasn't the first one. With two undead who can heal each other and summoned creates, they also have enough HPs to burn to fudge up some of the traps.

Grey Watcher

2013-06-18, 08:32 AM

Rather, taking 20 on the Search check; were he to take 20 on the DD check, it'd trigger the trap nineteen times first, which is… unwise.

Nale? Do something unwise? Preposterous! :smalltongue:

Umberhulk

2013-06-18, 01:39 PM

This. Imagine Nale taking 20 on every Search and Disable Device check for the whole trip down.

My impression of Nale forbids me from imagining him taking 20 the whole trip down. Maybe in a couple of spots. His capability to remain patient is fickle, I believe.

BenjCano

2013-06-18, 01:45 PM

My impression of Nale forbids me from imagining him taking 20 the whole trip down. Maybe in a couple of spots. His capability to remain patient is fickle, I believe.

Don't forget that he waited days and weeks for Z to scry every inch of desert o locate the Windy Canyon.

NerdyKris

2013-06-18, 01:57 PM

Don't forget that he waited days and weeks for Z to scry every inch of desert o locate the Windy Canyon.

No he didn't.

He was scrying specifically on the Order to see what they were up to and found them in the desert. He didn't know about the Windy Canyon until Tarquin told him. They found that by following the enchanted flying carpet Tarquin gave the Order, and that was immediately.

When he revealed himself to Elan, he assumed they were there to stop him specifically.

BenjCano

2013-06-18, 02:28 PM

No he didn't.

He was scrying specifically on the Order to see what they were up to and found them in the desert. He didn't know about the Windy Canyon until Tarquin told him. They found that by following the enchanted flying carpet Tarquin gave the Order, and that was immediately.

When he revealed himself to Elan, he assumed they were there to stop him specifically.

Check again: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html

Peelee

2013-06-18, 02:37 PM

I also wondered about this, opened the thread, realized the door probably slowed them down like crazy, and was all set to answer and look smart..... and then CRtwenty and the Giant happened. Sadface.

Anyway, that's my piddling contribution to this. Traps and whatnot would have helped, but it was probably mostly the door.

TheCountAlucard

2013-06-18, 03:09 PM

Who cares? He has enough ressources to keep him up and running. I think the potion we saw him drink wasn't the first one. With two undead who can heal each other and summoned creates, they also have enough HPs to burn to fudge up some of the traps.That's a tremendous waste of resources - if you can survive setting off a wizard's traps nineteen times, you can probably bypass the thing altogether using one-tenth as many spell slots. :smallyuk:

While Nale might not be brilliant enough to realize this, Malack probably wouldn't put up with that.

NZNinja

2013-06-18, 04:06 PM

Or they got stuck in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

This almost made me do a spit-take into my monitor - CCA references get me almost every time. Well played, sir, well played.

Porthos

2013-06-18, 04:29 PM

This almost made me do a spit-take into my monitor - CCA references get me almost every time. Well played, sir, well played.

More Zork* and its progeny than Colossal Caves. But thanks. :smallsmile:

* Yes, I realize the reference in Zork was a shout out itself. No need for anyone to say. :smallwink:

Scowling Dragon

2013-06-18, 06:02 PM

That's a tremendous waste of resources - if you can survive setting off a wizard's traps nineteen times, you can probably bypass the thing altogether using one-tenth as many spell slots. :smallyuk:

While Nale might not be brilliant enough to realize this, Malack probably wouldn't put up with that.

Not if it wasn't funny. Watching Nale get zapped 19 times is better then watching him succeed.

Reddish Mage

2013-06-18, 09:36 PM

This. Imagine Nale taking 20 on every Search and Disable Device check for the whole trip down.

Is it consistent with his personality that Nale would take 20 on every Search and Disable Device check, and then immediately upon coming to the potential Gate room walk straight into an obvious trap and then immediately into another room after that?

Yes, yes it does.

angry_bear

2013-06-18, 11:04 PM

The Planar Ally spell takes 10 minutes to cast. Combine that with navigating through the pyramid and... It still doesn't give a very accurate explanation of why they took so long.

I'm going to say dramatic narrative is what held them up so long. If they'd shown up sooner, the order of the stick would more than likely be dead right now. :smallsmile:

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-18, 11:11 PM

Rather, taking 20 on the Search check; were he to take 20 on the DD check, it'd trigger the trap nineteen times first, which is… unwise.

I don't think taking 20 on each trap means trying to disarm each one 20 times. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Using_Skills#Taking_20)

TaiLiu

2013-06-18, 11:27 PM

I don't think taking 20 on each trap means trying to disarm each one 20 times. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Using_Skills#Taking_20)
Of course it does:

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-18, 11:33 PM

"Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right" not "Taking 20 means trying 20 times."

TaiLiu

2013-06-18, 11:44 PM

"Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right" not "Taking 20 means trying 20 times."
"Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take."

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-18, 11:46 PM

That doesn't mean "Taking 20 means trying 20 times" either. :P And anyway, can't take 20 on a disarm device check, failing to disarm a trap can set it off.

TaiLiu

2013-06-18, 11:52 PM

That doesn't mean "Taking 20 means trying 20 times" either. :P
After re-reading the rules: you're right. Of course, the rules also say that Nale can't take twenty on a Disable Device check...

137beth

2013-06-18, 11:58 PM

After re-reading the rules: you're right. Of course, the rules also say that Nale can't take twenty on a Disable Device check...

Or rather you can, but you must suffer the effect of triggering the trap 19 times:smalltongue:

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-18, 11:59 PM

"When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20."

Amphiox

2013-06-19, 12:04 AM

This. Imagine Nale taking 20 on every Search and Disable Device check for the whole trip down.

Wait a minute, wasn't the LG's original plan to follow the Order so that the Order would disarm/trigger all the traps first, so they wouldn't have to? Shouldn't Nale have started to get suspicious that all was not going to plan after the third or fourth take 20?

Ok, this is Nale we're talking about, but....

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-19, 12:09 AM

If they took a different route, then Nale didn't follow that plan.

Amphiox

2013-06-19, 12:12 AM

"Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right" not "Taking 20 means trying 20 times."

In game mechanics, though, it boils down to taking an average of 20 times per task, if you attempt enough tasks for the average to normalize.

Narrative wise it could just as easily mean he took all the time on one tough task and breezed through all the others.

I assume D&D doesn't have a 1dmillion dice (weighted to always roll the million, because million to one chances are always good!).

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-19, 12:31 AM

Yes but I think "an average of 20 attempts" and "exactly 20 attempts" is a meaningful distinction.

David Argall

2013-06-19, 01:17 AM

Peelee

2013-06-19, 10:10 AM

But back to the basic question: This is story time. Whether Nale [or any other character] starts in the next room, with a map and a teleport scroll, or he starts in another nation, bound securely in a secure prison, he will arrive at the proper time for the dramatic confrontation. You can find what excuse you want, but the reason is that he can't arrive at any other time.

Yes, but the characters in the story aren't going to say, "well,I could have been here sooner, but the author didn't want that." There needs to be justification.

Shred-Bot

2013-06-19, 12:15 PM

Yes, but the characters in the story aren't going to say, "well,I could have been here sooner, but the author didn't want that." There needs to be justification.

Snack time! Eating a snack is always a valid justification for delaying one's journey to the McGuffin. You can't seriously expect to defeat the heroes with low blood sugar, can you? Not to mention eating as you walk is a great way to give yourself indigestion.

martianmister

2013-06-19, 07:01 PM

Wait a minute, wasn't the LG's original plan to follow the Order so that the Order would disarm/trigger all the traps first, so they wouldn't have to? Shouldn't Nale have started to get suspicious that all was not going to plan after the third or fourth take 20?

Ok, this is Nale we're talking about, but....

They lost their track.

Copperdragon

2013-06-20, 04:29 AM

I assume D&D doesn't have a 1dmillion dice (weighted to always roll the million, because million to one chances are always good!).

No one is keeping you from taking a bunch of d100s or d10 to simluate that. A DM can say "Ok, fine, if you want it this way... you have to roll 10 six times out of six on your d10 and you pull this stunt off!"

MReav

2013-06-20, 06:27 AM

I like to think they've spent some time to rest to replenish spells. With the clerics at least, it could make some sense. They only need to spend an hour in meditation at a prescribed time of day (probably midnight for vampires), and it could explain how Durkon got a Detect Magic back (I know The Giant gave an explanation, but I like mine more).