Figuring encounters

[Blaze Gamma]

I am new to the whole GMing thing... Actually, D&D in general, but that's not relevant. In any case, for the intro quest/dungeon, I'm setting up for a party of 4 plus a GMPC, but I want to be able to set up the encounter so it's fairly challenging, though not without being too much of a threat to the main party.

I guess my question is, how do you figure the encounter level for a party?

Seems like the Encounter level for a party of 4 is the same as the average level of a party, but I need to ask two questions:

Firstly, I have a party of 4 level 1 PCs, plus 1 level 4 GMPC. What would be an appropriate encounter level for them.

Secondly, when setting up smaller parties (I plan to split up the party during the crawl), what would be a good encounter level for 2 parties of 2?

I guess the overarching question is, what is the best way to figure out an appropriate Encounter Level for parties of varying size and level?

[Emperor Tippy]

http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

Use that, it makes it relatively easy.

[Rhynn]

You can use calculators or the DMG to figure out Encounter Level (EL). Encounter Level is based on the Challenge Rating (CR) of the monsters or NPCs involved; a single creature's EL is it's CR, possibly +/- 1. The DMG tables tell you what EL a number of creatures of CR X is. If combining multiple groups of creatures, you can replace CR with the group EL. It's not that complicated, but a lot of people just find it easier to use the calculators, for obvious reasons.

Generally, if the average level of a party (their total levels divided by 4; so your party has an average level of 1.6) is X, then...
... EL under X is an easy encounter, and anything below X-3 or so is trivial.
... EL X is an average encounter, they can take on 3-4 of these in a day without too much trouble, in theory.
... EL X+1 or +2 is a tougher encounter.
... EL X+3 or +4 is a hard encounter, suitable for a "boss fight," etc.
... EL X+5 or higher is probably too much for them.

Note that this is all very general and theoretical. A level 4 may be able to wreck encounters regardless of the average level (a level 5 wizard, for instance, could trivially destroy encounters EL 1-4, even with tactics as unoptimized as just fireball). Some characters are just more powerful than the assumption, and tactics count for a lot. Some parties will wreck EL X+5 and higher.

And at higher levels, especially, things get wonky. In my personal experience, for instance, a decently-played (but not cheesy) epic druid (with no Epic Spellcasting) will generally destroy CR 30 monsters, etc. But that's part of the game utterly breaking down in epic levels.

[Blaze Gamma]

So... The ECL, would I be right in assuming that it's formulaic?

I'm guessing it's the total level of the party divided by 4. Am I wrong?

[Rhynn]

I'll answer anyway! ECL is Effective Character Level. ECL is Character Level + Level Adjustment (LA). Character level is the total of your various class levels and any racial Hit Dice. You'd calculate average party level by adding up ECLs and dividing it... if figuring out encounter levels, divide the total of ECLs by 4.

Remember that XP calculations don't use average party level, though. For each character, they get XP based on their level (ECL), for each creature overcome based on CR, divided by the size of the party.

For instance (I don't have the DMG handy so I am pulling the numbers out of my behind for the sake of an example), this party of yours (four level 1s, one level 4) defeats four CR 1 and three CR 2 enemies.

Let's say CR 1 is worth 300 XP for ECL 1 and worth 150 XP for ECL 4, and CR 2 is worth 400 XP for ECL 1 and worth 200 XP for ECL 4.

Each 1st-level PC gets ((4*300)+(3*400))/5 = 480 XP, and the 4th-level NPC gets ((4*150)+(3*200))/5 = 240 XP.

Again, those numbers are wrong because I don't have my DMG around and can't be bothered to find it, just demonstrating the math.

Of course, the calculator Emperor Tippy linked does that math for you.

Also, specific answers to some of your original questions:


Firstly, I have a party of 4 level 1 PCs, plus 1 level 4 GMPC. What would be an appropriate encounter level for them.

EL 1 would be just slightly easy, EL 2 would be average or barely above, EL 3-4 would be tougher, and EL 5 would probably be the most they can handle, but it's not cut and dry. Remember, too, that some high-CR creatures will kill 1st-level PCs in one action pretty certainly. (On the other than, once they've put on some levels, they will be able to destroy a lone opponent before it ever gets to act.)


Secondly, when setting up smaller parties (I plan to split up the party during the crawl), what would be a good encounter level for 2 parties of 2?

EL 1, EL 2 at the most. They're effectively going to have an average level of 0.5. Any fight will be dangerous.

Encounters are ultimately not about math, but about intuition and experience (both the designing of them and the running of them, as well as dealing with them as a player). You're bound to mess it up, so don't worry.

[Blaze Gamma]

Okay, one last question.

I've made a Villain with their own CS, How do I figure out his individual CR?

[Emperor Tippy]

Okay, one last question.

I've made a Villain with their own CS, How do I figure out his individual CR?

If you made it like a PC then its CR is equal to its ECL (Character levels + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment).

[Rhynn]

If you made it like a PC then its CR is equal to its ECL (Character levels + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment).

Whoah. No. LA is not related (directly) to CR. Racial HD aren't, either.

Here's an example, from the SRD entry on drow:

Level adjustment +2.
Challenge Rating: Drow with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level. Drow with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1.

I can't think off-hand what you mean by "CS," Blaze Gamma - that's not a standard D&D initialism.

NPC CR is calculated as follows:

If the NPC has PC class levels (the PHB classes), CR is equal to class level. 1 class level = 1 CR.
If the NPC has NPC class levels (the DMG NPC classes: Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior), CR is equal to class level -1. Basically, 1 NPC class level = 1 CR, but -1 to the total. (CR 1 -1 is CR ½.)
If the NPC has level adjustment, it doesn't change anything.
If the NPC's race entry in the Monster Manual gives it a CR adjustment (as the drow, above), use that.
If the NPC is a monster with racial hit dice (e.g. gnoll), start with the CR given in its Monster Manual entry and modify by class levels, as above (1 CR per 1 class level, -1 to total if NPC class levels were added). Yes, theoretically, you can give monsters 1 level of Warrior to beef them up without increasing CR - you're the DM, you could cheat worse than that if you wanted to, but should you?


So, a human wizard level X has CR X. A human warrior level X has CR X-1. A drow wizard level X has CR X+1. A drow warrior level X has CR X. A gnoll has CR 1, so a gnoll fighter X has CR 1+X, and a gnoll warrior X has CR 1+X-1 (it's racial HD of 2 and LA of +1 are irrelevant).

Edit: Also, a NPC or creature with NPC class levels has, by default, a stat array of 13 12 11 10 9 8 (modified by race, levels, etc.). So if you give a hill giant warrior level, it's stats change (it has 11s and 10s by default). A NPC or creature with PC class levels has the Elite Array (15 14 13 12 10 8); just giving the elite array to something that doesn't have class levels is worth +1 CR according to the Monster Manual. Rolling the usual way is fine, too, obviously, but if you're just deciding what the ability scores are, you may make them more powerful than their CR (though probably not by much).

[Blaze Gamma]

If you made it like a PC then its CR is equal to its ECL (Character levels + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment).

So a Level 8 PC would have a CR of 8, or am I missing some step?

I've got a level 8 Paladin of Tyranny running, Human, blah blah blah.

HP: 118
Strength: 18 (+4)
Dexterity: 10 (+0)
Constitution: 18 (+4)
Intelligence: 10 +6 (+3)
Wisdom: 20 (+5)
Charisma: 18 (+4)
Base Attack Bonus: +8/+3
Saving Throws: Fort: +6 Ref: +2 Will: +2

Feats:
Weapon Proficiency: All Simple and martial Weapons,
Armor Proficiency: All Armor and Shields (Except Tower Shields)
Aura of Evil (Ex) (Lv8)
Detect Good (Sp)
Smite Good (Su) (2/day, +4 to attack roll, +8 Damage)
Deadly Touch (Su) (32/day, vs Will: DC 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + 4)
Aura of Despair (Su)
Rebuke Undead (Su) (7/day as level 5 Cleric)
Special Mount (Sp) (Emphatic Link, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws)
Cause Disease (Sp) 1/week
Code of Conduct
Weapon Focus (Scythe)
Power Attack
Persuasive
Eyes in the Back of Your Head
Two in One Training

Skills:
Sense Motive (Wis) 11
Bluff (Cha) 5.5+2
Intimidate (Cha) 5.5+2

Spells:
Lv 1: 5/day
Lv 2: 4/day

[Emperor Tippy]

So a Level 8 PC would have a CR of 8, or am I missing some step?

Yep, a PC has a CR equal to its level. I.e. the party should spend 20-30% of their daily resources to kill someone equal in power to one of said parties members (this assumes a 4 man party).

[Rhynn]

Those are some high ability scores; three 18s? An average of 10.75 hit points rolled per level? :smalleek:

You also don't seem to have added ability score modifiers to the saves. And you've got 33 unspent skill points.

[Blaze Gamma]

Those are some high ability scores; three 18s? An average of 10.75 hit points rolled per level? :smalleek:

You also don't seem to have added ability score modifiers to the saves. And you've got 33 unspent skill points.

He's the main Villain of the campaign. I intend him to be tough, and I gave the same amount of ability points to the PCs of the campaign.

I don't have any unspent Ability points. That 16 INT is from a magic item he's equipped with, and it doesn't give extra ability points.

As for HP, I just gave him the max for his level >>

[Rhynn]

Sounds like your PCs are pretty tough then, too. I'd personally have stuck to the basic DMG point buy, because high ability scores will mess with the game especially at early levels.

How does (8*10)+(8*4) or 80+32 come out to 118, though?

[Blaze Gamma]

Because addition fail.

I'll work out tough encounters and such later. We're all new to this.

In the meantime, I'll try to get the party to not ignore a quest NPC who is trying to point them in the right direction...