Help with Uttercold Assault Necromancer

[asnys]

I'm designing an Uttercold Assault Necromancer, and I would like the playground's advice, particularly about the choice of prestige classes - so far I have no good ideas. Part of the issue is, I'm in a book-constrained position: I have Core, Complete Arcane, a bunch of 3.0 books, a ton of old Dragons (mostly also from 3.0), and the contents of the WotC and d20srd websites. This is due to not-having-them constraints, not DM ruling, so if there's a book that I absolutely must have I can probably get it, but I don't want to spend the money for more than one (I'm leaning towards Liber Mortis at the moment, for obvious reasons). Also, third party and homebrew are allowed if they're not too ridiculous. I'm aiming for the typical Uttercold Assault Necromancer build, but, for flavor reasons, I'd like to focus more on incorporeal undead like shadows and wraiths. Are there any feats or abilities that would make your non-skeletal undead immune to cold?

I'd like to avoid anything super-cheesy, which in this case mostly means no incantrix or fire water elves.

Here's my build so far - I'm allowed two flaws:

Edit 2: I'm considering three options: plain-vanilla uttercold assault necromancer (possibly heading for pale master), master of shrouds (reskinned as arcane), and master of shrouds with early entry.

Edit 2.5: Added domains to the early entry version, few other odds and ends.

Race: Human
Abilities (from rolls):
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 10
INT: 18
WIS: 13
CHA: 8

Option 1: Plain Vanilla
Nec-1: Energy Substitution (Cold); Scribe Scroll; Mark of the Void (homebrewed feat that makes me healed by negative energy and hurt by positive - similar to what I've heard online about Tomb Tainted Soul); Fell Animate (from flaw); and either Skill Focus (Knowledge - Religion) (from flaw, prereq for Pale Master) or Corpsecrafter (from flaw)
Nec-2
Nec-3: Arcane Disciple (Undeath)
Nec-4
Nec-5: ACF: Domain Power (Deathbound)
Nec-6: Lord of the Uttercold

ACF: Enhanced Undead
ACF: Skeletal Minion

Prohibited Schools: Illusion and Enchantment

Option 2: Master of Shrouds
Nec-1: Energy Substitution (Cold); Scribe Scroll; Mark of the Void (homebrewed feat that makes me healed by negative energy and hurt by positive - similar to what I've heard online about Tomb Tainted Soul); Augment Summoning (from flaw); Spell Focus (Conjuration) (from flaw)
Nec-2
Nec-3: Beckon the Frozen
Nec-4
Nec-5: ACF: Domain Power (Deathbound)
Nec-6: Lord of the Uttercold
Nec-6/MoS-1
Nec-6/MoS-2
Nec-6/MoS-3: ???? Feat
Nec-6/MoS-4
Nec-6/MoS-5
Nec-6/MoS-6: Quicken Spell-Like Ability

Option 3: Master of Shrouds with Early Entry
Nec-1: Energy Substitution (Cold); Scribe Scroll; Mark of the Void (homebrewed feat that makes me healed by negative energy and hurt by positive - similar to what I've heard online about Tomb Tainted Soul); Augment Summoning (from flaw); Spell Focus (Conjuration) (from flaw)
Nec-2
Nec-2/Clr-1: Beckon the Frozen, ACF: Cloistered Cleric (gives Knowledge Domain), Deathbound Domain, Undeath Domain (gives Extra Turning)
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-1: Extra Turning (from class - it's too bad I can't use divine metamagic :smallbiggrin:)
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-2
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-3: Lord of the Uttercold
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-4
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-5
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-6: ???? Feat
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-7
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-8
Nec-2/Clr-1/MoS-9: Quicken Spell-Like Ability

Thanks for your help!

[Ignominia]

Wanted to throw my 2 copper in...

First, Im not a huge optimizer, so Im sure other playgrounders will have some better advice for you, but I always liked reserve feats with my wizards. Winters Blast would fit nicely with your character.

Second, the real reason Im posting... I HIGHLY recommend Libris Mortis. It is one of my favorite D&D books... In fact, all of the "monster" focus books, Draconomicon, Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness were really good. Amazon has used copies of Libris Mortis right now starting at $20. A very reasonable price as far as Im concerned.

Plus, LM has one of my favorite monsters ever... The Bleak Born!

[KillingAScarab]

Here's my build so far - I'm allowed two flaws:

Race: Human
Abilities (from rolls):
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 13
INT: 18
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

Nec-1: Energy Substitution (Cold), Scribe Scroll, Mark of the Void (homebrewed feat that makes me healed by negative energy and hurt by positive - similar to what I've heard online about Tomb Tainted Soul), Corpsecrafter (from flaw), Spell Focus (Necromancy) (from flaw)
Nec-2
Nec-3: Fell Drain
Nec-4
Nec-5: Lord of the Uttercold

ACF: Enhanced Undead

Thanks for your help!Lord of the Uttercold has a prerequisite of 9 ranks of knowledge (the planes). You would only be able to have 8 skill ranks at 5th character level, so you need to wait until 6th character level to take the feat.

Fell drain seems to come from Libris Mortis. Are you attempting to use that to create wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) ? Hmm... I'm not sure how a DM would rule on that, but perhaps that means your enhanced undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) feature would see some use before animate dead becomes available. To me, the wight seems like more of a consequence than a creation. You would also require a successful command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm).

What do you think of the skeletal minion ACF?

[Giegue]

As far as PrC classes are concerned, you may want to look at the Pale Master from Libris Mortis. While it does make you lose one caster level, what you gain is well-worth the loss. You get the ability to use animate dead as an SLA(which means for free!!!), an undead cohort, piles of defenses and immunities, some nice touch attacks and also, and perhaps more importantly, a capstone that lets you have, potentinally, an infinent number of zombies. Pale Master is while not a totally broken PrC a really flavorful and fun class, and one I'd highly recommend.

Other things you should look at are the following...

- The domain granted power ACF. This allows you to swap an individual bonus feat for a cleric domain power. You will drop your level 5 bonus feat for one domain power and only one, the deathbound domain. This greatly increases the amount undead you can create and control.

- The Arcane Disciple feat, choosing the undeath domain. You will have to find a way to get wis 13(Maybe drop con to 12 and strength to 8 if you are using point buy?), but if you can do that you get acssess to animate dead as a level 3 spell rather then a level 4 and also get desecrate as a level 2 spell(so long as you didn't ban evocation). Desecrate + the Deathbound domain power from the domain granted power ACF allow you to use animate dead just as good as a cleric can.

So, a build using both of these feats, not using flaws.

ACFs: Domain Granted Power, enhanced undead

Necro 1: Fell Animate(Better then fell drain, lets you turn cantrips into free undead minions), Arcane Disciple: Undeath(Human), Scribe Scroll(Class)
Necro 2
Necro 3 : Energy Substitution [Cold]
Necro 4
Necro 5: Deathbound domain power(ACF)

At level 6, you pick up lord of the uttercold. With your flaws, you can actually build towards Pale Master...such a build would look like this..

ACFs: Domain granted power, skeleton minion(corpsecrafter effectively replaces enhanced undead.)

Necro 1: Fell Animate, Arcane Disciple: Undeath(Human), Scribe Scroll(Class), Corpsecrafter(Flaw), Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion)(Flaw...needed to get into Pale Master)
Necro 2
Necro 3: Energy Substitution [Cold]
Necro 4
Necro 5: Deathbound Domain Power(ACF)

At level 6, uttercold assault comes online and your officially a Pale Master to boot!

Anyway, hope that helped some. Take my advice for what you will.

[asnys]

First, Im not a huge optimizer, so Im sure other playgrounders will have some better advice for you, but I always liked reserve feats with my wizards. Winters Blast would fit nicely with your character.

That's in Complete Mage, isn't it? I'm not sure I can justify buying two books...


Second, the real reason Im posting... I HIGHLY recommend Libris Mortis. It is one of my favorite D&D books... In fact, all of the "monster" focus books, Draconomicon, Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness were really good. Amazon has used copies of Libris Mortis right now starting at $20. A very reasonable price as far as Im concerned.

What I've seen of it from the previews on WotC looks really cool. :smallsmile:


Lord of the Uttercold has a prerequisite of 9 ranks of knowledge (the planes). You would only be able to have 8 skill ranks at 5th character level, so you need to wait until 6th character level to take the feat.

Whoops. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll edit the OP in a minute.


Fell drain seems to come from Libris Mortis.

Yes, there was a previous thread somewhere around here where someone explained how it worked.


Are you attempting to use that to create wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) ? Hmm... I'm not sure how a DM would rule on that, but perhaps that means your enhanced undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) feature would see some use before animate dead becomes available. To me, the wight seems like more of a consequence than a creation. You would also require a successful command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm).

That's what I have in mind, yes. Even if enhanced undead doesn't apply, it's still a wight way earlier than create greater undead becomes available. And even if that doesn't work, it also seems like a useful add-on to any mass damage or mass debuff spell, especially if combined with some kind of metamagic cost reducer.


What do you think of the skeletal minion ACF?

I'm considering it. I should probably just go ahead and do it, since flavorwise I can't see this character ever having a familiar.


As far as PrC classes are concerned, you may want to look at the Pale Master from Libris Mortis. While it does make you lose one caster level, what you gain is well-worth the loss. You get the ability to use animate dead as an SLA(which means for free!!!), an undead cohort, piles of defenses and immunities, some nice touch attacks and also, and perhaps more importantly, a capstone that lets you have, potentinally, an infinent number of zombies. Pale Master is while not a totally broken PrC a really flavorful and fun class, and one I'd highly recommend.

I'll take a look at it if I get Liber Mortis. :smallsmile:


Other things you should look at are the following...

- The domain granted power ACF. This allows you to swap an individual bonus feat for a cleric domain power. You will drop your level 5 bonus feat for one domain power and only one, the deathbound domain. This greatly increases the amount undead you can create and control.

That's in Complete Champion, isn't it? I don't have that book.


- The Arcane Disciple feat, choosing the undeath domain. You will have to find a way to get wis 13(Maybe drop con to 12 and strength to 8 if you are using point buy?), but if you can do that you get acssess to animate dead as a level 3 spell rather then a level 4 and also get desecrate as a level 2 spell(so long as you didn't ban evocation). Desecrate + the Deathbound domain power from the domain granted power ACF allow you to use animate dead just as good as a cleric can.

I'm using rolls, but I could switch wisdom and constitution. And it would fit the flavor, and I'm definitely not banning evocation - I'm planning to drop illusion and enchantment at the moment.


Anyway, hope that helped some. Take my advice for what you will.

It does help, thank you. :smallsmile:

Edit: Fixed quote tags.

[Amphetryon]

Seconding/thirding Libris Mortis as a valuable resource for you. There's even a PrC in there to help you with the focus on incorporeal undead: the Master of Shrouds. Akal Saris posted a Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310.0) for that particular PrC on a different forum a while ago; as I understand it, that forum is going to be shut off some time soon, so you may wish to copy down the info or see if he's got another copy lying around in his hard drive somewhere.

[KillingAScarab]

- The Arcane Disciple feat, choosing the undeath domain. You will have to find a way to get wis 13(Maybe drop con to 12 and strength to 8 if you are using point buy?), but if you can do that you get acssess to animate dead as a level 3 spell rather then a level 4 and also get desecrate as a level 2 spell(so long as you didn't ban evocation). Desecrate + the Deathbound domain power from the domain granted power ACF allow you to use animate dead just as good as a cleric can.Actually, arcane disciple will limit you to being able to prepare those spells once per day. Still, if you can make friends with someone who makes wands...


That's what I have in mind, yes. Even if enhanced undead doesn't apply, it's still a wight way earlier than create greater undead becomes available. And even if that doesn't work, it also seems like a useful add-on to any mass damage or mass debuff spell, especially if combined with some kind of metamagic cost reducer.Some digging with a search engine revealed a thread where people suggested applying it to a damaging cantrip. Sonic snap, specifically, but I had never heard of the spell before. Should still work with ray of frost (hey, uttercold applies, too).


I'm considering it. I should probably just go ahead and do it, since flavorwise I can't see this character ever having a familiar.You could also heal the skeleton/not freeze it to bits when you use area of effect spells.


That's in Complete Champion, isn't it? I don't have that book.Yes. There's a list of alternate class features which was last edited in 2010 on BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9795.msg331321), but as Amphetryon says, you may want the WotC link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III?post_id=338427898#3 38427898) instead.


Oh, and you accidentally attributed me instead of Giegue toward the end, there.

[asnys]

Seconding/thirding Libris Mortis as a valuable resource for you. There's even a PrC in there to help you with the focus on incorporeal undead: the Master of Shrouds. Akal Saris posted a Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310.0) for that particular PrC on a different forum a while ago; as I understand it, that forum is going to be shut off some time soon, so you may wish to copy down the info or see if he's got another copy lying around in his hard drive somewhere.

Master of Shrouds does require divine spellcasting, though.


Actually, arcane disciple will limit you to being able to prepare those spells once per day. Still, if you can make friends with someone who makes wands...

If I'm just doing it for the desecrate and animate dead, I should only need it once per day, right?


Some digging with a search engine revealed a thread where people suggested applying it to a damaging cantrip. Sonic snap, specifically, but I had never heard of the spell before. Should still work with ray of frost (hey, uttercold applies, too).

That's what I have in mind. Find a Com-1, zap them with a Fell Drain ray of frost, follow by Command Undead. Hey, she's evil, she does that kind of thing.


You could also heal the skeleton/not freeze it to bits when you use area of effect spells.

I've added the ACF to the OP.


It also means you can heal your familiar.

Yes. There's a list of alternate class features which was last edited in 2010 on BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9795.msg331321), but as Amphetryon says, you may want the WotC link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III?post_id=338427898#3 38427898) instead.

I'll take a look.


Oh, and you accidentally attributed me instead of Giegue toward the end, there.

Oops. :smallredface: Fixed that.

Thanks for the help, everyone. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Master of Shrouds does require divine spellcasting, thoughWhich costs a Feat, assuming re-flavoring is not allowed.

[Svata]

FREEZE it to bits? Skeletons are immune to cold, last I checked.

[asnys]

Which costs a Feat,

You mean Arcane Disciple? I don't have the book that's in; I thought that just meant you could cast spells from the domain as arcane spells? And wouldn't I need Rebuke Undead as well?


assuming re-flavoring is not allowed.

Well yeah, I could always do that. :smallsmile:

Does anyone know if there's any way to get immunity to cold for my non-skeleton undead? (And preferably for myself as well.)

[Amphetryon]

You mean Arcane Disciple? I don't have the book that's in; I thought that just meant you could cast spells from the domain as arcane spells? And wouldn't I need Rebuke Undead as well?



Well yeah, I could always do that. :smallsmile:

Does anyone know if there's any way to get immunity to cold for my non-skeleton undead? (And preferably for myself as well.)

No, not Arcane Disciple. There's Southern Magician, and I believe there's another Feat to accomplish a similar goal, depending on which books are actually available to you.

[Menzath]

I looked into making a build similar to this, and decided NO on any reserve feats. Yeah they give you staying power in combat and a minor bonus to CL with those element/school spells. BUT the ability you get is (SU) and not effected by any metamagic you get so they don't get very good and using a feat to get +1CL is just...
You are better of with a lot of feats from Frostburn to help out your cold spells. Cause I mean COLD SPELL SPECIALIZATION
[GENERAL]
You do additional damage with cold spells.
Prerequisite: Con 13, Snowcasting, Frozen Magic.
Benefit: In cold areas (temperature at or below 40° F),
you gain a +1 bonus per die to any dice rolled to determine
damage caused by cold spells you cast. For example, if an
11th-level wizard with this feat casts a cone of cold in a cold
area, the spell does 11d6+11 points of damage.
In areas of extreme cold (below–20° F), the damage bonus
increases to +2 per die.
And note that it meshes perfectly with lord of utter cold in that the damage is bonus damage, and not specifically typed by the feat.
Also the book has a crazy wealth of cold spells that are very neat.
Oh and if you don't have any spells that can change weather conditions, become friends with a blighter/ex-druid.

And yeah for undead no book is better than Lib mort.

[asnys]

No, not Arcane Disciple. There's Southern Magician, and I believe there's another Feat to accomplish a similar goal, depending on which books are actually available to you.

I'm pretty sure I don't have either book, and I can't really justify spending the money for a book just for one feat.

I'm not entirely sure it's worth it, anyway. If I go early entry by taking a level in a second base class with a good Will save, then I'm losing two levels of arcane spellcasting, which seems like a steep price. If I take the default entry pattern, then I get Dread Wraiths at level 16, by which point I can probably find them and Command Undead them.

Edit to Add: Although, if I did go with Master of Shrouds, I could use Beckon the Frozen to get cold immunity for my incorporeal undead...

[Amphetryon]

Edit to Add: Although, if I did go with Master of Shrouds, I could use Beckon the Frozen to get cold immunity for my incorporeal undead...
Indeed, you could.

[asnys]

So, I noticed that wights are actually intelligent undead. Which sort of calls my Fell Drain Ray of Frost/Command Undead strategy into question, since they'd be merely charmed, not actually controlled.

[KillingAScarab]

FREEZE it to bits? Skeletons are immune to cold, last I checked.The phrase after the backslash is, "not freeze it to bits." I was highlighting the cold immunity.


So, I noticed that wights are actually intelligent undead. Which sort of calls my Fell Drain Ray of Frost/Command Undead strategy into question, since they'd be merely charmed, not actually controlled.Yep. They treat you as friendly. I can just imagine the conversation now.

"Well, now, aren't you that spooky feller that I was trying to rob on the side of the road yesterday? I'm sorry about that, but me an' the wife and the kids have been having a hard time of it, lately. Say, I seem to have turned into some sort of creature with an abominable hunger for the spirit stuff of the living, could I borrow a cup from you, neighbor?"

[asnys]

Yep. They treat you as friendly. I can just imagine the conversation now.

"Well, now, aren't you that spooky feller that I was trying to rob on the side of the road yesterday? I'm sorry about that, but me an' the wife and the kids have been having a hard time of it, lately. Say, I seem to have turned into some sort of creature with an abominable hunger for the spirit stuff of the living, could I borrow a cup from you, neighbor?"

"I'm afraid I'm fresh out, but I know a few people who might have some to spare..."

I've updated the OP. I'm considering three options: plain-vanilla necromancer, possibly heading towards Pale Master; Master of Shrouds reskinned as arcane; and Master of Shrouds with early entry.

I'm kind of torn on Master of Shrouds. On the one hand, it fits with the theme and Beckon the Frozen gets me the cold immunity I've been looking for, and it might get me rebuking as well if that survives the arcane-reskinning process. On the other, I lose either one or two caster levels, which hurts, and if I go for the early entry option then I have essentially two dead levels. (Also, Cleric really does not fit with the flavor of the character.) And I'm not sure how big an advantage being able to summon incorporeal undead actually is.

Thanks for everyone's help!

[Saph]

And I'm not sure how big an advantage being able to summon incorporeal undead actually is.

It's a very powerful advantage . . . which is kind of a problem.

If you flip through the Monster Manual, you'll see that over half the low- to mid-level creatures in it have no real way to fight incorporeal opponents. This means that if you're playing a Master of Shrouds, any fight against such opponents is basically an auto-win.

The flip side is that most of the things that aren't vulnerable to incorporeal undead are just flat-out immune to them. Constructs, other undead, things with anti-summon spells active like Protection from Evil, etc. At low to mid levels, an early entry Master of Shrouds is essentially a one-trick-pony – you dominate some encounters and you're all but useless in others.

From a DM's perpective, this makes designing encounters for a Master of Shrouds difficult, because there are very few opponents that are challenging without being too easy or invulnerable. I had a couple of Master of Shrouds PCs in my games, and nowadays I just tell players to pick something else.

So you may be setting up long-term problems for yourself. On the other hand, your DM might not have any issue with it at all, in which case you'll be fine – I'm just making sure you're forewarned just in case! :smallsmile:

[asnys]

It's a very powerful advantage . . . which is kind of a problem.

If you flip through the Monster Manual, you'll see that over half the low- to mid-level creatures in it have no real way to fight incorporeal opponents. This means that if you're playing a Master of Shrouds, any fight against such opponents is basically an auto-win.

The flip side is that most of the things that aren't vulnerable to incorporeal undead are just flat-out immune to them. Constructs, other undead, things with anti-summon spells active like Protection from Evil, etc. At low to mid levels, an early entry Master of Shrouds is essentially a one-trick-pony – you dominate some encounters and you're all but useless in others.

From a DM's perpective, this makes designing encounters for a Master of Shrouds difficult, because there are very few opponents that are challenging without being too easy or invulnerable. I had a couple of Master of Shrouds PCs in my games, and nowadays I just tell players to pick something else.

So you may be setting up long-term problems for yourself. On the other hand, your DM might not have any issue with it at all, in which case you'll be fine – I'm just making sure you're forewarned just in case! :smallsmile:

Thank you for the warning, but I don't think it will be an issue in this case. :smallsmile:

I think I'm going to go with the early-entry Master of Shrouds. Thanks, everyone, for the help!