Group reaction to TPK?

[gondrizzle]

How often do my fellow DMs wipe a party? Do you do it at all? I ask because my lurking on the forums has led me to believe that my style is fairly unusual, as are my players I suppose.

In the world we've been using for the past three years, we've gone through FOUR sets of adventurers, all told!

Admittedly, some of them don't count. Two sets got used up in a one-shot "Alpharium's Greatest Hero" contest that was essentially a Paranoia adventure set in D&D. Winner of the contest got a big pile of goodies. 10 PCs entered, 0 PCs left. It was fun.

Still, I had a TPK with a real party of 9-10th level, in a "last desperate stand against the evil empire" situation. My players, being great, decided that the next set of PCs would join the evil empire instead...

thoughts?

[Lightlawbliss]

how groups react to TPK depends on the party (and the situation of the tpk). some parties will say "well, time to make new characters" and move on. Other groups will spend hours trying to convince the DM to save the party via npcs; and still other groups will never want to play with you as dm again. (not complete list of all possible reactions)

[gondrizzle]

how groups react to TPK depends on the party (and the situation of the tpk). some parties will say "well, time to make new characters" and move on. Other groups will spend hours trying to convince the DM to save the party via npcs; and still other groups will never want to play with you as dm again. (not complete list of all possible reactions)


Yeah, I was really shocked with how well they took the wipe of the 10th level PCs, since I generally don't allow starting at an elevated level. They had raised those PCs from pups, but they did go out in a suitably heroic fashion. They had an escape option, but they didn't take it!

[CaladanMoonblad]

In 20 years of GMing, I've never had a TPK. Sure, some players lost their character to death and dismemberment, but as a GM I've always encouraged deaths to be epic. But a total party kill?

I run a realistic game. There are in game consequences to players making poor decisions for their characters. I don't let players get away with flipping off the sheriff, or being disrespectful to authority figures without repercussions.

In this way, my players rarely decide to fight until the last wo/man standing. Frankly, they always have an escape plan, and play their characters with intelligence (for the most part). I've found that players get into the most trouble with their characters when they stop treating their character as a real person, and rather as a cardboard cut out ready to make trouble, or look for trouble in the game.

Real people have a finely honed Fight or Flight response. To mis-paraphrase Yoda, "Fear is my ally, and a powerful ally it is."

[Azoth]

I haven't had too many with my group. Well, at least not after the first couple of sessions. See I am somewhat of an evil DM. My enemies use tactics, their surroundings, and are decently prepared individuals for most general situations.

My group's previous DM was of the mind PCs don't die because main characters don't die. They wore main character privprivilege shields and plot armor. So we had a lot of shocked faces when people started dying doing crazy things to be awesome. At first I dealt with outrage and stupified disbelief from them despite my warnings.

Luckily, they enjoyed the feel of my games and continued playing with me. Since they have become much more cautious and strategic in the way they play the game. This isn't to say they are high or even upper mid op players, but they do understand the importance of their choices in a given situation.

As a side effect, they have also started building characters that work well in sync with one another. They may not necessarily be strong or omnipotent on their own, but as a unit they are formidable. They also seem to enjoy this style. Where they have to work together to take down strong foes as opposed to the casters neutering it and then the fighter mopping up.

Much to my chagrin, they have also become adept at lateral thinking. Innovative ways to stay alive and tackle situations. Something I have to keep an eye on some days.

[dysprosium]

I have had a few TPKs in my DMing career. The last one was about three and a half years ago now.

I was running the War of the Burning Sky adventure path. All of the players had decided to play a "hardcore" game. Parameters: core only, starting at first level, rolling 4d6 (dropping the lowest number) six times for ability scores and the rolls were the order of the abilities. The NPCs that tag along in the beginning had better stats than the PCs did.

Despite these handicaps, they made it through the frist three adventures with not too much difficulty. The TPK came when one of the characters abandoned the party (IC reasons) and rolled up an even worse replacement. The group was fleeing a patrol that was too tough for them. They should have surrendered but they decided to fight it out to the last man. A few lucky critical hits later, the Heroes of Seaquen were defeated.

They decided to end the campaign and start another one.

[gondrizzle]

In 20 years of GMing, I've never had a TPK. Sure, some players lost their character to death and dismemberment, but as a GM I've always encouraged deaths to be epic. But a total party kill?

I run a realistic game. There are in game consequences to players making poor decisions for their characters. I don't let players get away with flipping off the sheriff, or being disrespectful to authority figures without repercussions.

In this way, my players rarely decide to fight until the last wo/man standing. Frankly, they always have an escape plan, and play their characters with intelligence (for the most part). I've found that players get into the most trouble with their characters when they stop treating their character as a real person, and rather as a cardboard cut out ready to make trouble, or look for trouble in the game.

Real people have a finely honed Fight or Flight response. To mis-paraphrase Yoda, "Fear is my ally, and a powerful ally it is."

Wow, never?

My players had definitely gotten overconfident, which is part of why they got killed. They were really feeling their eggs as major 10th level badasses, and one of them said they figured I would stop throwing cavalry at them eventually. Why they thought that, I don't know...

As an aside, I play with serious in-game consequences as well. One of my players will never forget this exchange from years ago:

"The path continues up the cliffside to the north-east. Looking down to the west, you can see the river, far below. There is a small plateau to the east, with wispy smoke rising from some underbrush."

"Ok, I go west to look."

"West?"

"Yup."

"You fall off the cliff in a bout of strange overconfidence. Roll for double falling damage, double for the jagged rocks."

"I'm dead."

"Well, that'll teach you not to walk off a cliff!"

[gondrizzle]

I haven't had too many with my group. Well, at least not after the first couple of sessions. See I am somewhat of an evil DM. My enemies use tactics, their surroundings, and are decently prepared individuals for most general situations.

My group's previous DM was of the mind PCs don't die because main characters don't die. They wore main character privprivilege shields and plot armor. So we had a lot of shocked faces when people started dying doing crazy things to be awesome. At first I dealt with outrage and stupified disbelief from them despite my warnings.

I cannot overstate how much I hate that "main characters don't die" attitude. I've run into it, too. Lost a player over it once. Why bother, if they're not in danger? Playing a game with God Mode on was only fun when I was eight.

[dascarletm]

Wow, never?

My players had definitely gotten overconfident, which is part of why they got killed. They were really feeling their eggs as major 10th level badasses, and one of them said they figured I would stop throwing cavalry at them eventually. Why they thought that, I don't know...

As an aside, I play with serious in-game consequences as well. One of my players will never forget this exchange from years ago:

"The path continues up the cliffside to the north-east. Looking down to the west, you can see the river, far below. There is a small plateau to the east, with wispy smoke rising from some underbrush."

"Ok, I go west to look."

"West?"

"Yup."

"You fall off the cliff in a bout of strange overconfidence. Roll for double falling damage, double for the jagged rocks."

"I'm dead."

"Well, that'll teach you not to walk off a cliff!"

I would have given him a chance on that one. Sometimes you and the player have different images in their heads. Most actual clifsides, and ass I imagined it, are actually just a steep hill. Also, he may of assumed that he would scale his way down, or just go west up to the edge to get a better look down. Things like that (easily could just be a misunderstanding of intention) I think always need to be cleared up. I've had a player belly-flop off a cliff at level 20, because he was confident he'd live at terminal velocity. I made very sure he knew what he was doing, and I knew what he meant.

[BowStreetRunner]

I have never had a TPK in D&D (any edition) or any other fantasy-based game that I have ever run. The only TPK I can remember ever occurring was in a CyberPunk-Night's Edge game, and CP normally tends to have a higher body-count than D&D to begin with.

It really all depends on the situation. Most of the 'heroic fantasy' games I've run I would expect some players to throw a fit even if their character died doing something blatantly suicidal, like drawing a sword and attacking while surrounded by a score of archers with bows drawn and arrows nocked, all aiming at the PC. There is something about some of these games that seems to make players just expect to live longer - maybe the HP system is too forgiving.

On the other hand, in the CP campaign I mentioned above I started the players alongside a group of elite NPC mentors who they watched wipe the floor with a bunch of bada$$ cyber-psychos in the first encounter of the game. The PCs were barely able to contribute to this fight at all. Then they watched the same NPC mentors all get blown away by a hit-squad in the second encounter. So they were feeling their mortality a bit more and I think were better prepared for the possibility of PC death.

Of course, to be honest it wasn't truly a TPK. One character did make it out. But the player sent his character to a motel where he was sitting facing the door with his shotgun in his lap, a cigarette in one hand and a glass of whisky on the table next to him, just waiting for the bad guys to come. He then told me he wanted to retire his character right then and there, and everyone agreed it was a great ending - so fade to black, we ended the game there.

[gondrizzle]

I would have given him a chance on that one. Sometimes you and the player have different images in their heads. Most actual clifsides, and ass I imagined it, are actually just a steep hill. Also, he may of assumed that he would scale his way down, or just go west up to the edge to get a better look down. Things like that (easily could just be a misunderstanding of intention) I think always need to be cleared up. I've had a player belly-flop off a cliff at level 20, because he was confident he'd live at terminal velocity. I made very sure he knew what he was doing, and I knew what he meant.

I did give him a chance, I asked him to confirm what direction he wanted to go. The path was a foot wide, and steep-to. I even asked "west" in an incredulous voice. He wasn't paying attention to what was going on, and he got killed for it. It worked out ok, because it gave the ranger a chance to actually use some rope skills to go down and fetch the body for a haul back to the temple for a resurrection.

[Rhynn]

I think I've done it once, ever, and it was a "rocks fall, you die" because the PCs that were still alive/unparalyzed (ghasts & ghouls) started fighting each other (OOC conflict leaking IC) and I decided to just reboot things.

I don't think I've ever had a party wipe otherwise. If I did, it'd be because they played stupid; so hopefully their reaction would be "dang, we shoulda X" and they'll rebuild a more resilient party.

Of course, I prefer campaign structures where every active PC dying doesn't end the campaign.

[dascarletm]

I have never had a TPK in D&D (any edition) or any other fantasy-based game that I have ever run. The only TPK I can remember ever occurring was in a CyberPunk-Night's Edge game, and CP normally tends to have a higher body-count than D&D to begin with.

It really all depends on the situation. Most of the 'heroic fantasy' games I've run I would expect some players to throw a fit even if their character died doing something blatantly suicidal, like drawing a sword and attacking while surrounded by a score of archers with bows drawn and arrows nocked, all aiming at the PC. There is something about some of these games that seems to make players just expect to live longer - maybe the HP system is too forgiving.

I had that happen to me too. When i transitioned my DnD group to Rogue Trader, they TPK'd twice. Once in ground battle because they didn't realize how deadly combat is, and the second they were all in a starship. It blew up.

[gondrizzle]

I don't think I've ever had a party wipe otherwise. If I did, it'd be because they played stupid; so hopefully their reaction would be "dang, we shoulda X" and they'll rebuild a more resilient party.

Of course, I prefer campaign structures where every active PC dying doesn't end the campaign.

I got lucky, that's how this one wiped out. Next week, we are getting back into the same ongoing war in the same world, but they're on different sides now. It should be interesting, and I've already thought up some interesting ways to change everything that they know OOC to be incorrect for these PCs.

[gondrizzle]

I had that happen to me too. When i transitioned my DnD group to Rogue Trader, they TPK'd twice. Once in ground battle because they didn't realize how deadly combat is, and the second they were all in a starship. It blew up.

We've run Dark Heresy one-shots a few times, which are really lethal. Best critical hit tables I have ever seen. I actually borrowed them for when a mage does something really impressive.

Still, for lethality, you can't beat Paranoia (my first RPG love), where if everything goes as planned, everyone has died at least once before they make it to the briefing room for the start of the mission.

[BowStreetRunner]

...the second they were all in a starship. It blew up.

Yes, but how did they die?

Seriously, I have seen a few explosions, buildings collapsing, and similar things that didn't kill a high-level PC in D&D.

[gondrizzle]

Yes, but how did they die?

Seriously, I have seen a few explosions, buildings collapsing, and similar things that didn't kill a high-level PC in D&D.

Rogue Trader PCs die if you look at them sideways.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Never had a TPK yet in the few games I've run, the players tend to play at a certain gear until the first PC is down and then they ramp it up to extreme levels, start using all the consumables, blow all their most powerful spells and 1/day abilities and then run and hide if they can to recuperate.

It also helps that I run a Plot-Point system, as the PCs advance they earn plot points that they can use to alter the plot and setting in minor ways, such as conveniently having history with a newly introduced NPC in some way, or to have a chandelier conveniently be located above the group of guards, etc.

If a PC would be killed they can opt instead to be saved by the plot and they are automatically stabilised at -1 HP, this means that any plot points they may have are wiped out and they can never earn any more, because nobody likes those characters that just keep coming back :smalltongue:

[dascarletm]

We've run Dark Heresy one-shots a few times, which are really lethal. Best critical hit tables I have ever seen. I actually borrowed them for when a mage does something really impressive.

Still, for lethality, you can't beat Paranoia (my first RPG love), where if everything goes as planned, everyone has died at least once before they make it to the briefing room for the start of the mission.

I love those tables. Sufficiently brutal. Paranoia sounds interesting indeed. Is there ways they can make it there alive?


Yes, but how did they die?

Seriously, I have seen a few explosions, buildings collapsing, and similar things that didn't kill a high-level PC in D&D.

It was funny they kept saying that if they were their DnD characters from the last session (lvl 20+) they would of just survived the explosion, exposure to the vacuum of the void, and fall to the ground, and still have enough HP to take on a dragon.

EDIT:

Rogue Trader PCs die if you look at them sideways.

Especially if you are a navigator.

[Krobar]

I was in a party that lasted not even one game session. These were all experienced players, and this was in 2nd Edition days.

There were 4 of us, and we all rolled up 1st level paladins (lol). On our first adventure, we headed out and came across a farmer who was having a problem with a tribe of orcs killing his livestock. As we were about to set off to deal with the orc problem, the farmer mentioned "and there is also a band of trolls and ogres in the next valley... maybe you could deal with that too?"

We all looked at each other and said "let's go deal with that FIRST. HUZZAH!"

We lasted two rounds. The DM blamed us for being stupid, and we blamed him for suckering in a party of inexperienced first level paladins. In the end we were both right and we all knew it.

So we rolled up some smarter characters and started again.

[GnomeGninjas]

In my current group their are only two players and a DM so we are pretty vulnerable, we see a TPK every four to six sessions. The players's mindset is "Let's roll up new characters, I've always wanted to play a ______", it took a while for the DM to adapt to that play style because in the past his players got more upset.

[hymer]

One of my players remarked last year that this was his first TPK ever. I've been playing with him for, I think, five years or so. He wasn't entirely right, though, as I TPK'ed with him a few years before that with another DM.
Generally speaking, both I and my players try to avoid TPKs. But I think I'm right when I say that my players know that TPKs can happen when I DM if they screw up badly enough, or if they are just that unlucky. During a Westmarches-inspired campaign, there were two or three TPKs over about 100 sessions (and several more coming pretty close and requiring rescue missions). And that was a pretty brutal campaign by my standards.

My groups usually react with dignity, regardless of circumstances.

[gondrizzle]

I love those tables. Sufficiently brutal. Paranoia sounds interesting indeed. Is there ways they can make it there alive?


Everybody starts with their character, and five backup clones in Paranoia. They can buy more clones if they get the money, but that's rare the way I run the game.

Generally, the objective to be the only survivor at the debriefing at the end of the mission. That way you can narrate the mission so as to make it clear that everyone else was a filthy Commie Traitor, wheras you, and only you, were steadfast and true in your service to The Computer.

[prufock]

The only TPKs I've had were in Tomb of Horrors and Paranoia!, and it's sort of expected there, so the players didn't really complain.

[big teej]

I've never had a TPK, but I've come REAL close to it.

apparently orks with class levels are the single most dangerous things in dnd... who knew?


my players have been warned well in advance that there are two outcomes to a TPK with me behind the screen.

1. I screwed up, I overdid an encounter, as such it's handwaved away and it never happened, I'll do better next time.
2. the encounter worked fine, and the party screwed up. they are dead. the party then has the collective decision pursue one of the following.
- "okay, yall wake up in the afterlife, what do you do?"
- form a interim party meant to recover the bodies.
- new campaign.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is why players shouldn't be stupid at lower levels and should invest the resources to make most death an irrelevance at higher levels.

My group and I will TPK you without any hesitation or fudging at all. Adventuring is a very deadly career choice and if you aren't incredibly paranoid and capable then you will become very well acquainted with it.

[gondrizzle]

This is why players shouldn't be stupid at lower levels and should invest the resources to make most death an irrelevance at higher levels.

My group and I will TPK you without any hesitation or fudging at all. Adventuring is a very deadly career choice and if you aren't incredibly paranoid and capable then you will become very well acquainted with it.

A man after my own heart.

[BowStreetRunner]

- "okay, yall wake up in the afterlife, what do you do?"

Sounds like the perfect excuse to start a Ghostwalk campaign! :smallbiggrin:

[Tar Palantir]

I don't have TPKs very often, but they're always on the table, and I've had a few campaigns where the number of deaths was to to three times the number of PCs (even without resurrection, on occasion). I did have a TPK in my SWSE game (in the boss fight at the end of Dawn of Defiance Episode IX; turns out a Force user with three turns per round can solo a brutally effective six man party with some luck and a couple of Destiny points). Everyone was a little disappointed that they didn't make it to the end of the campaign, and a little more disappointed that since they were all stable and unconscious, they were going to be tortured painfully for a long time :smallbiggrin:.

[Twilightwyrm]

Considering I have yet to get a single character killed in any of my campaigns, I'm honestly not quite sure how my players would react to a TPK. Depends on the campaign I suppose. I admit I use many encounters that are designed to stretch the party to the absolute breaking point, so I suppose it is entirely possible the players might well think it was me erring too close to the edge, and luck just not being with them this time.

[supervillan]

I've been GMing for around 25 years. Had plenty of TPKs in that time, in many systems. Generally my groups have reacted fine, and usually it just becomes part of the story. I've run a D&D campaign world that has had multiple parties adventure in it. The first campaign I set in that world ended with the classic dungeon crawl "the abduction of good king despot", which killed all of the party in various interesting ways.

Do NOT charge the Great Death Druid! Run away!

I ran an oriental campaign (Rokugan setting) that ended when the party stormed an obsidian mine full of goblins and oni. They'd have done better if two samurai PCs had showed up, but I couldn't cancel the game that night and the remaining players went ahead and tried a frontal assault anyway.

In my games, stupid or reckless actions are likely to result in PC death. At lower levels some attrition is very possible, although the current campaign has got to level 6-7 with no PC deaths, and some quite impressive play at times. PC death tends to be more one or two casualties than TPK, but I don't use fudge or GM fiat to save a party botch. I like to give my players freedom to choose their actions, but there has to be real danger for the characters.

[some guy]

I've never had a TPK in DnD but plenty in Call of Cthulhu (no one is suprised) and Gamma World (making new characters is fun and fast). I've had the most deaths in DnD, though. It seems when casualties happen, DnD-characters have a few retreat-options or they shift into gear and win the battle.

[danzibr]

This is why players shouldn't be stupid at lower levels and should invest the resources to make most death an irrelevance at higher levels.

My group and I will TPK you without any hesitation or fudging at all. Adventuring is a very deadly career choice and if you aren't incredibly paranoid and capable then you will become very well acquainted with it.

A man after my own heart.
Agreed. I play exclusively with my family and they never kill anyone. We've had several situations where there should have been a TPK. Even when there's about to be a single death there's some sort of divine intervention.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'll admit that I've had a couple over the years. My first was back in the day when I believed the CR system to be accurate.

...Still can't believe that I was ever that naive.

[Sylthia]

I most recently had a TPK (or really a party defeat) a few weeks ago. We had one character die, but he was wanting to try a new character anyway. The rest of the party was taken captive and lost a bit of XP.

[137beth]

Has anyone ever played "munchkin rpg" (or "true munchkin")? It's a 3.5 variant, in the style of Steve Jackson's card game Munchkin.
I've seen TPKs in that...
in fact, the DMG has a long section that basically details ways that you can get away with killing your players.

Outside of systems like that where TPKs are suppose to happen, I have never had a TPK. I have had some pretty unnecessary player deaths...
for example, I had a player who decided that he was totally awesome, and that he would go hunt down the BBEG for a solo fight. Unfortunately for him, this was a game where many enemies were not meant to be fought directly. He knew this, and the other players warned him that it was not a good idea. I managed to arrange his solo-impossible-mission so that he didn't get all the other players killed along with him.

After being killed (in one round) by the BBEG, he made a new character. The new character was not a "clone," it was a completely different kind of character with a different story and build, but the new character wanted to solo the BBEG before he had even met the other PCs.
After THAT character died, he started playing more seriously.
Yea...I don't know why he worked so hard on the second character if he was just going to kill it right away, but whatever:smalltongue: