New (?) Trick for Gaining High-Level Spells

[prufock]

I've been working on some Theurge builds lately (with the motto "theurge early, theurge often) and I've come up with the following trick for gaining spells of higher level than you should be able to cast by your level. I owe some inspiration for this trick to the old spells through feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219050) thread.

Step 1: Get 2nd-level spells somehow. Earlier is probably better, since we want to gain high-level spells fast. Possible options are spellcaster base class, precocious apprentice feat, or magical training + versatile spellcaster + heighten spell + MM reducer tricks.

Step 2: Get 2nd-level binding. Earlier is better again. Possible options are binder base class (with improved binding feat for earlier access) or bind vestige + improved bind vestige.

Step 3: Make sure you have 4 ranks in intimidate and knowledge (planes).

Step 4: Take Heighten Spell.

Step 5: Take Anima Mage prestige class to 5th level for:

Vestige Metamagic (Su): At 4th level, you can use a bound vestige to augment your spells by temporarily giving up access to its powers. Using vestige metamagic is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Choose one of the vestiges to which you are bound whenever you activate this ability. You can then apply the effects of any metamagic feat that you possess to a spell you cast that round, without increasing its spell level. However, you lose access to all the abilities and powers granted by the chosen vestige upon activation and do not regain them for 5 rounds. You cannot use this ability if you do not have a vestige bound, or if you do not currently have access to its abilities (through the use of this ability, an antimagic field, or some other effect). Vestige metamagic is usable once per day at 5th level, two times per day at 7th level, and three times per day at 9th level.
You can now cast 9th level spells through Heighten Spell feat using a lower level spell slot.

Step 6: Take Earth Sense and Earth Spell. Your 9th-level Heightened Spells now count as 1 level higher.

Step 7: Take Extra Spell and Extra Slot as you see fit for any level of spells up to 9th.


The best build I can gather with this is
Warlock 1, human or strongheart halfling with 2 flaws = 4 feats. Precocious Apprentice, Heighten Spell, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige. Put 4 ranks in Intimidate and Knowledge (planes).
Anima Mage 5, feats at 3rd and 6th are Earth Sense and Earth Spell.
After that classes don't really matter, you grab extra spell, extra slot, knowstones, runestaves, or whatever else to get extra spells.


So, does this work? Has it been done before? It isn't a trick I've seen anywhere else.

[Emperor Tippy]

Now just figure out how to get the caster level of 17 that you need for 9th level spells.

[Harrow]

Now just figure out how to get the caster level of 17 that you need for 9th level spells.

Where does it say you need a particular caster level to cast spells?

[Xervous]

also: caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)

[Urpriest]

Now just figure out how to get the caster level of 17 that you need for 9th level spells.

Not actually a requirement. While the rules say you need a minimum caster level to cast spells of a particular level, they never say what that minimum is.

The actual problem here is that Vestige Metamagic explicitly doesn't increase the spell's level, so you can't use it with Heighten.

[papr_weezl8472]

Where does it say you need a particular caster level to cast spells?


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question[...]

Though there are plenty of ways to raise your caster level.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not actually a requirement. While the rules say you need a minimum caster level to cast spells of a particular level, they never say what that minimum is.

The actual problem here is that Vestige Metamagic explicitly doesn't increase the spell's level, so you can't use it with Heighten.

You have to deliberately misread it to get that. Examples are given in multiple places. You need a CL equal to the level that you gain the spell at for your class to cast said spell.

[Barsoom]

I find it funny that the OP talks about obtaining high-level spells, while the text he quoted himself - and in bold, no less - says: without increasing its spell level. Come on, it's right there, black on white. It does not increase the spell level. So what exactly are we arguing about?

[papr_weezl8472]

The rules don't have a *general* requirement for caster level to cast spells of a certain level, they have *specific* requirements for everyone. With this trick you're casting a higher-level spell from a specific class you have levels in, and the class table is pretty clear at specifying the minimum (caster) level to cast it. It only gets hazy when casting without a specific progression table to refer to.

[Urpriest]

The rules don't have a *general* requirement for caster level to cast spells of a certain level, they have *specific* requirements for everyone. With this trick you're casting a higher-level spell from a specific class you have levels in, and the class table is pretty clear at specifying the minimum (caster) level to cast it. It only gets hazy when casting without a specific progression table to refer to.

There's your problem. The table doesn't have caster level on it at all, it lists class level.

[Harrow]

I find it funny that the OP talks about obtaining high-level spells, while the text he quoted himself - and in bold, no less - says: without increasing its spell level. Come on, it's right there, black on white. It does not increase the spell level. So what exactly are we arguing about?

:smalleek: That's a very worrying interpretation. Metamagic normally doesn't increase spell level, heighten is the only one that does that. All others just raise the level of spell slot needed to cast the spell. An Empowered Fireball is a 3rd level spell, but you have to cast it out of a spell slot 5th level or higher (without metamagic reduction). By RAW that class ability just let's you turn off a vestige so you can take Heighten off of a spell.

...Which is honestly the kind of poor writing I expect out of the Tome of Magic at this point :smallannoyed:

[papr_weezl8472]

There's your problem. The table doesn't have caster level on it at all, it lists class level.

Ugh. This is one of those things where RAI is obvious but RAW is ambiguous, isn't it. :smallannoyed:

[Barsoom]

:smalleek: That's a very worrying interpretation.That's not an interpretation. That's reading of a text in the English language. I am reading the words "without increasing its spell level" to indicate the spell level is not increased.

[prufock]

The actual problem here is that Vestige Metamagic explicitly doesn't increase the spell's level, so you can't use it with Heighten.
Knew there had to be a catch.


I find it funny that the OP talks about obtaining high-level spells, while the text he quoted himself - and in bold, no less - says: without increasing its spell level. Come on, it's right there, black on white.
It's sort of a black on pastel green, actually.

[Rubik]

I find it funny that the OP talks about obtaining high-level spells, while the text he quoted himself - and in bold, no less - says: without increasing its spell level. Come on, it's right there, black on white. It does not increase the spell level. So what exactly are we arguing about?Wouldn't this be a case of specific vs general? Or more specifically, specific vs more specific?

Generally speaking the ability in question doesn't raise the spell level of the spell you're metamagicking, which is par for the course for normal metamagic use. Heighten is an exception to that rule, meaning it overrides that piece of text. After all, it doesn't forbid abilities that raise the spell level; rather, it states that the default is that it doesn't.

I think that's the keystone of this trick, as well as the point of contention, apparently.

[Harrow]

The text is wrong. The words in the book? Ignore those. They are not accurate. This is normally a weird thing to say in relation to 3.5, but this is the Tome of Magic, arguably the worst written book in all of 3.5. And I'm including 3rd party in that.

According to RAW you could use Vestige Metamagic to drop the use of a vestige for 5 rounds to cast Empowered Fireball out of a 5th level spell slot as a 3rd level spell. The problem here being you already cast Empowered Fireball out of a 5th level spell slot as a 3rd level spell. It seems really obvious to me that the author intended that ability to mean you can cast a spell modified by metamagic without using a higher level slot, and that's what he thought he was saying. He just messed it up. It's no different from the spell they gave with an instantaneous duration that had the same effect as Neutralize Poison (duration 10 min/level) or the feat that just makes it harder to use an Utterance when it's pretty obvious it was supposed to make it harder to resist instead.

[prufock]

According to RAW you could use Vestige Metamagic to drop the use of a vestige for 5 rounds to cast Empowered Fireball out of a 5th level spell slot as a 3rd level spell. The problem here being you already cast Empowered Fireball out of a 5th level spell slot as a 3rd level spell. It seems really obvious to me that the author intended that ability to mean you can cast a spell modified by metamagic without using a higher level slot, and that's what he thought he was saying.

Interesting. The latter (bolded) part is what I assumed from reading it, given that the former explanation makes no sense. I've checked the errata and it was not clarified.

Has there been any word from WotC on this? Can Heighten Spell be used at all, or does the ability actually do nothing?