Question on outsiders

[Immabozo]

If you have an animal, lets say, that is an outsider, due to templates, or being native to another plane, etc, do they go back to being an animal (or whatever type it is) on their home plane?

[Jormengand]

If you have an animal, lets say, that is an outsider, due to templates, or being native to another plane, etc, do they go back to being an animal (or whatever type it is) on their home plane?

They become a native outsider, I believe.

[Lightlawbliss]

If the type changes to outsider, then on their home plane they are a native outsider. however, there are templates that would make it things other then an outsider (most often a magical beast) that is native to another plane. in the second case it is whatever it was otherwise when it is on it's home plane.

[Immabozo]

They become a native outsider, I believe.

So do abilities or whatever that target, can only be done by, or are ineligible to Outsiders, are still eligible to be taken, still effect them or cannot be taken, as appropriate?

[Immabozo]

If the type changes to outsider, then on their home plane they are a native outsider. however, there are templates that would make it things other then an outsider (most often a magical beast) that is native to another plane. in the second case it is whatever it was otherwise when it is on it's home plane.

So pseudonatural that makes, say, an animal, an outsider, on it's home plane, is an animal? Or is it Native Outsider animal?

[Urpriest]

So do abilities or whatever that target, can only be done by, or are ineligible to Outsiders, are still eligible to be taken, still effect them or cannot be taken, as appropriate?

They are an outsider in every sense of the word, yeah.

As an aside, a Fiendish X is still a Magical Beast on their home plane, not an Animal.

[Immabozo]

They are an outsider in every sense of the word, yeah.

As an aside, a Fiendish X is still a Magical Beast on their home plane, not an Animal.

I was just choosing a type, for sake of simplicity, that was the first that came to me.

So, the term outsider is not relative to the individual, but relative to the Material Plane?

[Urpriest]

I was just choosing a type, for sake of simplicity, that was the first that came to me.

So, the term outsider is not relative to the individual, but relative to the Material Plane?

It's not relative at all. A creature is of the Outsider type regardless of what plane they are on. There are plenty of Outsiders native to the Material Plane, they're just rarer because the Material Plane isn't as inherently ideologically charged.

[Immabozo]

It's not relative at all. A creature is of the Outsider type regardless of what plane they are on. There are plenty of Outsiders native to the Material Plane, they're just rarer because the Material Plane isn't as inherently ideologically charged.

I guess examples of that are PrC that grant outsider type.

So what exactly is meant by being an outsider? I thought it was "from a different plane of existence" is that incorrect?

[tyckspoon]

I was just choosing a type, for sake of simplicity, that was the first that came to me.

So, the term outsider is not relative to the individual, but relative to the Material Plane?

You're confusing Outsider and (Extraplanar), I think. Outsiders are Outsiders, no matter where they are. It's a term that describes a particular kind of life, not a location- Outsiders are made of planar stuff, and their souls and bodies are a single unit (this is why they can't normally be Raised, as destroying the body also damages the soul. Elementals are similar, being made of, well, Elemental materials instead of mundane elements.) Native Outsiders are kind of in-between an Outsider and a normal (Humanoid/Animal/whatever); they are Outsiders for most purposes, but still have most of the traits of regular life (they need to eat, drink, sleep, can be Raised normally, etc.)

(Extraplanar) is a subtype you gain whenever you are not on your home plane. You have it when you go traveling and lose it when you come back home. (Extraplanar) is actually the subtype that makes you vulnerable to Banishment, Dismissal, and similar spells and effects (but not Planar Binding, that cares about your actual Type.)

[Vaz]

You can have two types of Outsider; Extraplanar, or Natural.

Being extraplanar means you typically have a couple of benefits such as not needing to eat, or drink, etc, but you're susceptible to banishment, etc.

A natural outsider (one lacking the Extraplanar Subtype) however, is one who is on their home plane; consequently, they need to eat, drink, etc, but are not subject to banishment.

While being a natural outsider is infinitely more preferable, you are only a natural outsider on your homeplane (unless you take the Naturalized Denizen feat, IIRC), which is something the rest of the party may not be. For example, a Neraph is an Extraplanar outsider on the material plane, but on its home plane of Limbo, it's a natural outsider. On the material plane it can be banished back to Limbo, but on Limbo, banishing it has no effect.

So, unless the template changes you to gain the Extraplanar subtype, you are a natural Outsider.

[Immabozo]

You're confusing Outsider and (Extraplanar), I think. Outsiders are Outsiders, no matter where they are. It's a term that describes a particular kind of life, not a location- Outsiders are made of planar stuff, and their souls and bodies are a single unit (this is why they can't normally be Raised, as destroying the body also damages the soul. Elementals are similar, being made of, well, Elemental materials instead of mundane elements.) Native Outsiders are kind of in-between an Outsider and a normal (Humanoid/Animal/whatever); they are Outsiders for most purposes, but still have most of the traits of regular life (they need to eat, drink, sleep, can be Raised normally, etc.)

(Extraplanar) is a subtype you gain whenever you are not on your home plane. You have it when you go traveling and lose it when you come back home. (Extraplanar) is actually the subtype that makes you vulnerable to Banishment, Dismissal, and similar spells and effects (but not Planar Binding, that cares about your actual Type.)

Thank you for clearing that up.

[Immabozo]

You can have two types of Outsider; Extraplanar, or Natural.

Being extraplanar means you typically have a couple of benefits such as not needing to eat, or drink, etc, but you're susceptible to banishment, etc.

A natural outsider (one lacking the Extraplanar Subtype) however, is one who is on their home plane; consequently, they need to eat, drink, etc, but are not subject to banishment.

While being a natural outsider is infinitely more preferable, you are only a natural outsider on your homeplane (unless you take the Naturalized Denizen feat, IIRC), which is something the rest of the party may not be. For example, a Neraph is an Extraplanar outsider on the material plane, but on its home plane of Limbo, it's a natural outsider. On the material plane it can be banished back to Limbo, but on Limbo, banishing it has no effect.

So, unless the template changes you to gain the Extraplanar subtype, you are a natural Outsider.

And thank you as well. I appreciate everyone's help!

[tyckspoon]

Y
A natural outsider (one lacking the Extraplanar Subtype) however, is one who is on their home plane; consequently, they need to eat, drink, etc, but are not subject to banishment.


That's not quite true. An Outsider who is not currently (Extraplanar) simply is not (Extraplanar); they don't become Native in its place. A Native Outsider is one that is mostly mortal (such as Tieflings, Aasimar, and the various other Planetouched) or that is so associated with the Prime Material plane that its form takes on mortal traits.

[Devils_Advocate]

"Outsider" is a misleading name. It helps to think of it from an in-setting academic perspective. It's easy to imagine a bunch of wizards labeling a type of creature found only on other planes "outsider", no? And then when they later discover that some creatures of this type are actually native to the Material Plane, this use of the word is already in use, and it's not practical to get everyone to change their terminology. (Qwerty syndrome!) So they keep calling them that and wind up calling these "outsiders" from the Material Plane "native outsiders" even though this plainly makes no sense.

That's etymology for ya!

(On the other hand, from a game design perceptive, having a subgroup of Outsiders that mostly work like they're not Outsiders, i.e. that need to eat and sleep and can be raised from the dead normally, strikes me as silly. But that is what they decided to do for whatever reason.)


If the type changes to outsider, then on their home plane they are a native outsider.
This is incorrect! Whether a creature has the Outsider type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) and whether an outsider has the Native subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype) are both completely independent of what plane it is on at the time.

It's the Extraplanar subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype) that depends on whether a creature is on its plane of origin. Taking "Outsider" to mean "Extraplanar" is a common mistake, because, as noted, "outsider" is a misleading name.


You can have two types of Outsider; Extraplanar, or Natural.

Being extraplanar means you typically have a couple of benefits such as not needing to eat, or drink, etc, but you're susceptible to banishment, etc.

A natural outsider (one lacking the Extraplanar Subtype) however, is one who is on their home plane; consequently, they need to eat, drink, etc, but are not subject to banishment.

While being a natural outsider is infinitely more preferable, you are only a natural outsider on your homeplane (unless you take the Naturalized Denizen feat, IIRC), which is something the rest of the party may not be. For example, a Neraph is an Extraplanar outsider on the material plane, but on its home plane of Limbo, it's a natural outsider. On the material plane it can be banished back to Limbo, but on Limbo, banishing it has no effect.

So, unless the template changes you to gain the Extraplanar subtype, you are a natural Outsider.
Where did you get all of this from? It sounds quite different from the normal 3.5E rules, in which whether or not Outsiders are Native (not Natural) is independent of whether or not they are Extraplanar.

Sounds like a house rule to me.

Really, if you want the official answers to all of this stuff, it's probably best to check the rulebooks yourselves, since this seems to be a matter on which people often have their own favored "non-canon" answers of choice, and also a matter in which the rules redefine words to work completely differently than they do in normal usage. These facts are probably related!

EDIT: Actually, it seems that the OP presupposes the use of a different ruleset than D&D 3.5, since it lists being native to another plane as something that might make an animal an outsider, independent of templates.

In what system are you looking for an answer, Immabozo?

[Immabozo]

Probably are. I can see that in-setting usage and it makes sense. I can also see similar reasons from a game designer's perspective for coming up with more outside-like stuff later.

[Vaz]

Natural, Native. Bleh. Semantics. No house rule, however. All expressed within here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm), and followed to the letter AFAIK.

Where am I "house-ruling", exactly?

[Devils_Advocate]

You are "house-ruling" that being on its home plane causes an Outsider to have the Native subtype, and that being off of its home plane causes an Outsider not to have the Native subtype. Whereas, in the d20 System, an Outsider may be both Extraplanar and Native (e.g. a tiefling visiting Mount Celestia) or neither Extraplanar nor Native (e.g. an archon in Mount Celestia).


Native Subtype

A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
A Native Outsider is simply native to the Material Plane, not necessarily whichever plane it currently happens to be on.


Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.
In the d20 System rules, ON THE MATERIAL PLANE, Extraplanar Outsiders are not Native Outsiders and Native Outsiders are not Extraplanar Outsiders. Statblocks describe creatures as they are on the Material Plane, and thus, in the statblocks, Extraplanar Outsiders are not Native Outsiders and Native Outsiders are not Extraplanar Outsiders.

But there is no rule that being non-Extraplanar, i.e. being on its home plane, causes an Outsider to become a Native Outsider. Nor is there a rule that being Extraplanar, i.e. being off of its home plane, causes an Outsider not to be a Native Outsider.

That is something that you made up. :P

Handy list of examples:

1. Demon in the Abyss: Not Extraplanar, Not Native
2. Demon on the Material Plane: Extraplanar, Not Native
3. Couatl on the the Material Plane: Not Extraplanar, Native
4. Couatl on Mount Celestia: Extraplanar, Native

[Kelb_Panthera]

Natural, Native. Bleh. Semantics. No house rule, however. All expressed within here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm), and followed to the letter AFAIK.

Where am I "house-ruling", exactly?

When you say outsiders take on the native subtype on their home-plane.

The extraplanar subtype, and only the extraplanar subtype, is relative to whether you're on your home plane or not.

No type or other subtype changes when you go plane hopping.

Note also that all creatures, regardless of type, take on the extraplanar subtype when not on their home-plane.

The native subtype simply means that the outsider (native is only ever applied to outsiders) has mortal parentage and must eat, drink, and breath and can be raised from the dead like any non-outsider, -elemental, or -construct

[KillianHawkeye]

Note also that all creatures, regardless of type, take on the extraplanar subtype when not on their home-plane.

I want to reiterate this because it is important.

Whenever your adventuring party of humans and elves and whatnot goes shopping in Sigil or tries bashing down the gates of Hell, they gain the (extraplanar) subtype and can be banished back to the Material Plane.

[Immabozo]

I want to reiterate this because it is important.

Whenever your adventuring party of humans and elves and whatnot goes shopping in Sigil or tries bashing down the gates of Hell, they gain the (extraplanar) subtype and can be banished back to the Material Plane.

That is a nifty, or at least different, way of getting home from other planes.

[137beth]

That is a nifty, or at least different, way of getting home from other planes.

If one person in the party wants to stay on another plane, and everyone else wants to go home, then just ask that player to banish you:tongue:

[Devils_Advocate]

But note that nothing counts as Extraplanar on a transitive plane, meaning that neither you nor anything you encounter on one can be banished (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm). They're "neutral ground" that way.

[TuggyNE]

But note that nothing counts as Extraplanar on a transitive plane, meaning that neither you nor anything you encounter on one can be banished (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm). They're "neutral ground" that way.

Curious, why do ghosts have a specific "exception" that partially confirms that, then?
A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.

[Jeraa]

Curious, why do ghosts have a specific "exception" that partially confirms that, then?

A creature native to the Ethereal plane would be an extraplanar creature on the Material plane. The ghost template gives them 2 home planes, along with a reminder of what that means.

[TuggyNE]

A creature native to the Ethereal plane would be an extraplanar creature on the Material plane. The ghost template gives them 2 home planes, along with a reminder of what that means.

But what good is having a home on the Ethereal? Just say that they're still Material Plane natives, despite generally existing on the Ethereal, and let the regular rules handle the rest.

[Devils_Advocate]

A poorly written rule, suggesting ignorance of another rule on the part of the writer? It is inconceivable that such a thing could exist in a Dungeons & Dragons book. There must be more to it.

[Jeraa]

But what good is having a home on the Ethereal? Just say that they're still Material Plane natives, despite generally existing on the Ethereal, and let the regular rules handle the rest.

If it was possible for a ghost to be on some outer plane. There, it would be [Extraplanar]. If it got banished from there, it would be sent back to its home plane, which would either be the Material or Ethereal planes.

But the real reason it has a home on the Ethereal plane is that is where it is actually from, and actually "lives". A ghost spends most of its time on the Ethereal plane, so thats its home plane. Even when a ghost manifests, it never fully leaves the Ethereal plane. There may be no mechanical benefit from it, but as thats where ghosts are from, thats its home plane. It gets the Material Plane as a free second home.

Its the same reason Nightshades and shadow mastiffs have their home plane as the plane of Shadow, or the Githyanki/Githzerai have the Astral Plane as their home plane. Thats just where they are from, even if there is no mechanical benefit from it.

Edit: Also, for effects like that from the Sword of the Planes:


Sword of the Planes

This longsword has an enhancement bonus of +1 on the Material Plane, but on any Elemental Plane its enhancement bonus increases to +2. (The +2 enhancement bonus also applies on the Material Plane when the weapon is used against elementals.) It operates as a +3 longsword on the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane or when used against opponents native to either of those planes. On any other plane, or against any outsider, it functions as a +4 longsword.

[Devils_Advocate]

Huh, I guess there is more to it. How 'bout that.

[TuggyNE]

If it was possible for a ghost to be on some outer plane. There, it would be [Extraplanar]. If it got banished from there, it would be sent back to its home plane, which would either be the Material or Ethereal planes.
[…]
Edit: Also, for effects like that from the Sword of the Planes:

Whaddya know, there actually is a nitpicky difference. I sit corrected*.


*None of us are actually standing, are we?

[Rhynn]

That's etymology for ya!

That's also how real taxonomy works. There are many, many creatures with completely "wrong" common names, and those often go back centuries so they're hard to change.

D&D taxonomy: surprisingly authentic?

Of course, in the end, it's all rules constructs. Tieflings are outsiders so that they're affected by spells as (native) outsiders rather than as humanoids. Why that is necessary or a good idea is anybody's guess: why wouldn't/shouldn't charm person work on tieflings (or aasimars)? No reason, it's just an arbitrary decision.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But note that nothing counts as Extraplanar on a transitive plane, meaning that neither you nor anything you encounter on one can be banished (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm). They're "neutral ground" that way.
Where is this rule? I've never heard of it before.

[AuraTwilight]

Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Right here.

[TuggyNE]

Where is this rule? I've never heard of it before.

It took me a bit to find it earlier and then I got lazy and didn't C&P it in. :smallfrown:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Huh. They tucked that one a bit out of the way, didn't they.

[AuraTwilight]

Er, no? It's in the main paragraph about the subtype, right where it should be.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How often do you check the glossary in the MM for rules on planar travel?

One would expect that rule to be somewhere in the DMG section on planar travel or perhaps anywhere in MotP or the planar handbook.

A player would be unlikely to think of looking up the details of the extraplanar subtype in particular when all other subtypes are only relevant to determining whether spells that specify a certain type or subtype in their descriptions as valid targets are applicable to a creature.

It's not an unsuitable place for that detail, but it's certainly not the most obvious place for it either; especially given that new players are told by the core rulebooks that the DMG and Monster Manuals are for DM's.

[hewhosaysfish]

That's also how real taxonomy works. There are many, many creatures with completely "wrong" common names, and those often go back centuries so they're hard to change.

D&D taxonomy: surprisingly authentic?

Reminds me of the episode of QI where we learned about Big-Eyed Wolf-Spiders. Apparently there's a subspecies which has no eyes. It's called the No-Eyed Big-Eyed Wolf-Spider. Because if it did have eyes then they would be big ones.

[Rhynn]

How often do you check the glossary in the MM for rules on planar travel?

Well, to be fair, it's in the rules for the subtype. Do rules for planar travel even talk about the extraplanar subtype?

Granted, planar travel rules probably should say something like "travellers or visitors on a non-transitive plane (i.e. any plane but [THESE]) take on the extraplanar subtype and can be affected by spells and effects accordingly."

[KillianHawkeye]

How often do you check the glossary in the MM for rules on planar travel?

One would expect that rule to be somewhere in the DMG section on planar travel or perhaps anywhere in MotP or the planar handbook.

A player would be unlikely to think of looking up the details of the extraplanar subtype in particular when all other subtypes are only relevant to determining whether spells that specify a certain type or subtype in their descriptions as valid targets are applicable to a creature.

It's not an unsuitable place for that detail, but it's certainly not the most obvious place for it either; especially given that new players are told by the core rulebooks that the DMG and Monster Manuals are for DM's.

Like it or not, the Monster Manual glossary is one of the most useful repositories for tightly packed information we have.