Can YOU Optimize the Fochlucan Lyrist?

[Os1ris09]

Is there anyway to make the Fochlucan Lyrist and Sublime Cord work in 3.5 to reach both 9th lvl arcane and divine spells?

I'm trying to find a build that can make it work without having to go outside of Druid / Bard but so far i can't reach 9th lvl of both casters.

Any suggestions from the Playground?

[Randomguy]

Is there anyway to make the Fochlucan Lyrist and Sublime Cord work in 3.5 to reach both 9th lvl arcane and divine spells?

I'm trying to find a build that can make it work without having to go outside of Druid / Bard but so far i can't reach 9th lvl of both casters.

Any suggestions from the Playground?

Bards don't get 9th level arcane spells.

[Os1ris09]

Bards don't get 9th level arcane spells.

Sublime Chord extends the bard casting progression. Hence why I'm trying to use Sublime Chord to reach 9th lvl Arcane Spells.

The most basic style is Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 10 to get 9th Lvl Spells but I'm trying not to be a straight bard and the druid summon nature's ally spontaneous spells seem to be a great fit for what needs to be done in the party I'm in.

An example for what I'm looking for is this:

Bard X / Druid X / Sublime Chord 1(2) / Fochluran Lyrist 8(9)

Reason for parenthesis is I might need the Caster Level increase from the 2nd lvl of Sublime Chord.

Sorry for the confusion. :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)+Open Least Chakra (Feet) can bypass the Evasion prerequisite.

[Flickerdart]

Bards don't get 9th level arcane spells.
That's where Sublime Chord comes in.

The problem here is that both FL and SC can only be entered at level 10. The build's last ten levels will thus look like SC 1/FL 9. To get 9th level Druid casting off FL 9, we need 8 levels of Druid in the first 10 levels.

This means early entry fun. The easiest way is to go Bard 1/Druid 9 and use Talfirian Song to qualify for Sublime Chord. But wait, you say, we need Evasion! A 1-level dip into Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon) gives us just that.

So the final build looks like Bard 1/Druid 8/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

[Mishkov]

This is really awkward to do.

You can do something like Bard 1/Druid 9/SC 1/FL 9, but you'll need to do a lot of things people tend to have problems with such as

1) Getting an item that has evasion on it to count for sublime chord
2) Take the feat Southern Magician

You probably also have to be human and take able learner to keep up with the high int requirements.

I have to wonder though, what's so great about the summon nature ally line of spells that makes you want druid so badly?

[Der_DWSage]

*Looks it over* Hm. Kind of a tough case. Both Fochlucan and Seeker require you be 10th level before you can take them, which is...irksome in combining the two. I think you'd have 8th level sorcerer spells at best. Let's look at what they both require, and the levels you get them at.

13 skill ranks in various skills - Minimum level 10.
1st level Divine Spells (FL) - Druid Level 1
Druidic Language (FL) - Yep, has to be a Druid. No Ranger here.
3rd level Bard spells (SS) - Bard level 7 (Or lower, depending on FL level)
Evasion (FL) - 2 level dip in Rogue? If there's errata for this, I'd like to see it. It seems out of place.

So...a build like this -could- work.

Rogue 1/1
Rogue 2/2
Druid 1/3
Bard 1-7/4-10
SS 1 / 11
FL 1-9 / 12-20

...But you're going to be struggling for a loooong time. You'll get those level 9 spells, sure, but you're going to hate yourself pretty much 90% of the way there.

If what you're aiming for is the Summon Nature's Ally spells, might I instead recommend you just take the Savage Bard ACF from Unearthed Arcana (And found in this finely crafted link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) and go for that instead? Your Druid SNA is going to suck, as it simply won't progress well. Or if you really want to feel snazzy...

Savage Bard 1-7 / 1-7
Virtuoso 1-3 / 8-10
Seeker 1 / 11
Virtuoso 4-10/ 12-19 (Advance Seeker)
Seeker 2 / 20

Take Words of Creation from Book of Exalted Deeds, Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic, any other +1 to Inspire Courage that you can get from any source, and summon as many critters from SNA as you can. You now have your army of fiery retribution, doing anywhere from +4d6 to +22d6 fire damage on every attack. You have your 9th level spells, you have your SNA, and you have everyone feeling like you're doing something relevant with your army of squirrels-especially since they'll be getting that bonus to damage as well.

[Vaz]

It's not optimal.

Druid 7/Bard 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Sublime Chord 1/FL +9

1 - Southern Magician (retrain when class qualifies self)
H - Alertness
F1 - Favored
F2 - Improved Unarmed Strike
3 - Power Attack
6 - X (Natural Spell)
9 - Primary Contact
12 - X
15 - X
18 - X

[Venger]

ways to qualify in a timely fashion have pretty much been enumerated already

if all you want is summons, is there a reason that using wands isn't sufficient?

[Der_DWSage]

I'd actually forgotten an alternate method of Summons myself-could you talk your GM into letting you have an instrument-Staff with varied versions of Summon Nature's Ally, or use Runestaves from the Magic Item compendium so you can swap out your spells to SNA?

If SNA is your only contention, there's far better ways to get it than Druid or Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Big Fau]

if all you want is summons, is there a reason that using wands isn't sufficient?

Hell, if that's all the OP wants I'm fairly sure there is a magic item in the MiC that will do the job (I remember reading about an item that would allow you to sacrifice a spell slot to spontaneously cast a Summon X spell of equal level).

Barring that, a custom Runestaff would work.

[Waker]

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer* 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyricist 9
Take Shape Soulmeld, Open Least Chakra (Feet) to nab evasion.
Green Whisperer is a PrC from Dragon #311. It fully progresses Bard/Druid spellcasting, can be entered at lvl 5 and is 5 levels long

[Grod_The_Giant]

The most basic style is Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 10 to get 9th Lvl Spells but I'm trying not to be a straight bard and the druid summon nature's ally spontaneous spells seem to be a great fit for what needs to be done in the party I'm in.
Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) 10/Sublime Chord 10?

[kulosle]

Any reason why you want Fochlucan Lyrist instead of a different theurge class? Like Arcane heirophant or how ever it's spelled.

[prufock]

Human Bard 1/Druid 5/Combat Medic 4/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8

Unfortunately it doesn't meet your requirement of nothing outside bard or druid, but combat medic advances your druid spellcasting and grants evasion at 4th.

Druid casting 17 (9th), Sublime Chord Casting 10 (9th)
Rearrage and flavour to taste. You only need 10 effective SC levels, so there's some wiggle room to change this as you see fit. Requires human and one flaw.

Feats: Human: Able Learner, Flaw: Precocious Apprentice, 1: Heighten Spell, 3: Dodge, 6: Combat Casting, 9: Versatile Spellcaster

Arcane Hierophant would be better and easier than Fochlucan Lyrist.

[kulosle]

Arcane Hierophant would be better and easier than Fochlucan Lyrist.

And has the added fun of Familiar companion. Which is all kinds of useful. especially if you want to go super mount, which still nets you two sets of level 9 spells if you do it right.

[Lostbutseeking]

Human Bard 1/Druid 5/Combat Medic 4/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8

Unfortunately it doesn't meet your requirement of nothing outside bard or druid, but combat medic advances your druid spellcasting and grants evasion at 4th.

Druid casting 17 (9th), Sublime Chord Casting 10 (9th)
Rearrage and flavour to taste. You only need 10 effective SC levels, so there's some wiggle room to change this as you see fit. Requires human and one flaw.

Feats: Human: Able Learner, Flaw: Precocious Apprentice, 1: Heighten Spell, 3: Dodge, 6: Combat Casting, 9: Versatile Spellcaster

Arcane Hierophant would be better and easier than Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Edited]
That doesn't actually work as SC requires third level arcane casting and you need a second level of bard to have enough spell slots for Versatile spellcaster to get you to a third level spell.

My usual approach to this is one of these:

Bard 2/Druid 3/ Green whisperer (DR#311) 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 9

Using able learner and picking up evasion with Shapesoulmeld and Open least chakra.

Alternatively you use Ur-priest for the divine side.

Which gives you a little more freedom in the build but is harder on the skill points. Oh and you may have to brutally torture a druid until they teach you the language.

Bard 7 /Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 8

Works with a little effort (and a spreadsheet to plan skill point useage).

You can replace bard with savage bard substitution and mindbender with druid as well though that requires you to shift alignment during the progression.

[Urpriest]

Sublime chord requires the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells as one of its pre-requisities so that doesn't actually work.

The build included Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten Spell. If you don't know how the trick works, ask, don't just assume there is no trick.

[jedipilot24]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

Here you go.

[Os1ris09]

Well well... I knew I'd get some help but everyone brought out the cheddar a little bit here.

To clarify some details so I can get some more interesting ideas that the DM might not just ban outright druid isn't totally necessary.

For example I am currently the following:

C-Cleric 3 / Warlock 2 however we have only played 1 session most of which has been roleplaying.

Unfortunately I can't change my race so I am an Aasimar with LA bought off already.

I was wondering what can you guys suggest by using C-Cleric instead of druid?

I was thinking the following:

C-Cleric 3 / Bard 2 / Divine Oracle 2 / Bard 3 / Sublime Chord 1 / F.L. 9

Or something along those lines. Any thoughts?

Again thanks for the help :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: ALSO, Just as a side-note the campaign will go into epic levels. So 9th Lvl Spells are a must without cheese :smallbiggrin:

[Der_DWSage]

The problem with using Cloistered Cleric rather than Druid is that you don't have access to the Druidic Language without some cheese in of itself. Ah wait, I see now. You're saying you don't need Druidic language after all. My apologies. (See if he'll also drop the rather silly Evasion requirement, too.)

It would also be appreciated if you'd acknowledge that we gave you several different ways to get Summon Nature's Ally without the FL. Is that the only reason you were wanting FL? Or are there other reasons, and we should focus more on trying to get the two classes to mesh than on ways to boost summoning?

[Os1ris09]

The problem with using Cloistered Cleric rather than Druid is that you don't have access to the Druidic Language without some cheese in of itself. Ah wait, I see now. You're saying you don't need Druidic language after all. My apologies. (See if he'll also drop the rather silly Evasion requirement, too.)

It would also be appreciated if you'd acknowledge that we gave you several different ways to get Summon Nature's Ally without the FL. Is that the only reason you were wanting FL? Or are there other reasons, and we should focus more on trying to get the two classes to mesh than on ways to boost summoning?

I saw that you guys gave several ways to get SNA through other variants and since variable add on material is allowed some UA material is such as the class variants such as c-cleric so I do not see why savage bard would not be and I think I'll use that class variant as well.

My party isn't very "combat" oriented and actually can use the help in numbers that SNA can grant us without having to split XP anymore (party of 4 with me being the most optimized :smallfrown: )

I am wanting FL to try and obtain 9th divine and arcane spells. I know that FL isn't the most friendly class but it is by far the best PrC I've seen with SOLID BAB, full casting progression, and solid skill points. If I had to sacrifice anything it would be arcane spells but I would prefer not too.

Any other questions for me feel free to ask. I hope I have answered those that have been presented though adequately enough. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks again for the help GITP!!!!

[prufock]

That doesn't actually work as SC requires third level arcane casting and you need a second level of bard to have enough spell slots for Versatile spellcaster to get you to a third level spell.

You Heighten your Precocious Apprentice spell to 3rd, burning off two 2nd-level druid spells to cast it. Actually, now that I look at it a second time, you don't even need Precocious Apprentice, you can just Heighten one of your 0-level bard spells to 3rd. Just saved the build a feat, so now you don't need a flaw!

EDIT: Just editing to say that, yes, this works by RAW whether this was the designer's intention or not. Another way to do this would be to forget Heighten and Versatile Spellcaster altogether and instead take Alternative Spell Source, which lets you cast your druid spells as arcane spells.

[Os1ris09]

So my build that I'm favoring is the following:

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / F.L. 8

My question is if I were to take this character into epic progression can I take levels in Fochlucan Lyrist or can I not advance in that prestige class anymore?

[Urpriest]

So my build that I'm favoring is the following:

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / F.L. 8

My question is if I were to take this character into epic progression can I take levels in Fochlucan Lyrist or can I not advance in that prestige class anymore?

You haven't taken all levels of Fochlucan Lyrist, so you can keep taking them up to level 10. After that, since Fochlucan Lyrist is a ten-level prestige class your DM can homebrew an epic progression for it and you can keep going in that.

[Flickerdart]

My question is if I were to take this character into epic progression can I take levels in Fochlucan Lyrist or can I not advance in that prestige class anymore?
You need an epic PrC progression in order to keep taking a PrC past 10th. Having said that, IIRC the Epic PrC rules mention that 10-level PrCs are definitive enough for a character to justify the DM working with players to create a progression.

Looking at what they did to Epic Mystic Theurge though, you're better off just progressing a single class.

[Os1ris09]

How would the continued spell progression work though? Do the spells/day and spells known work as normal once you hit 21+ even though I don't have the full 10 lvls of Fochlucan Lyrist?

Also I just realized I don't get 9th divine spells from my previous build so I am changing it to this

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9

[Flickerdart]

You get spells per day as normal until you hit the maximum for the class you are progressing, and then it stops, I think.

[undead hero]

The build included Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten Spell. If you don't know how the trick works, ask, don't just assume there is no trick.

Ooooooh snap!

That's all I've got.

[dspeyer]

It sounds like this build is able to cast a 2nd level spell heightened to 3rd level. The prerequisite is "able to cast 3rd level arcane spells". Is there another trick, or do you just try to convince the dm that this qualifies?

[Flickerdart]

It sounds like this build is able to cast a 2nd level spell heightened to 3rd level. The prerequisite is "able to cast 3rd level arcane spells". Is there another trick, or do you just try to convince the dm that this qualifies?

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.
A spell that heightened to level 3 is a level 3 spell.

[Os1ris09]

So in theory I can obtain 9th lvl spells after reaching lvl 20?

So I can use this build and legally qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist?

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Rogue 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 6 / EPIC Progression Fochlucan Lyrist 10

[Coidzor]

So in theory I can obtain 9th lvl spells after reaching lvl 20?

So I can use this build and legally qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist?

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Rogue 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 6 / EPIC Progression Fochlucan Lyrist 10

I believe it would have to go Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Rogue 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 / EPIC Fochlucan Lyrist 6, as you have to finish the class out before you can take epic levels in it.

[Os1ris09]

Well no matter how you spin the progression my question is do I still obtain spell levels into Epic campaigns or if I get stuck with 8th divine spells can I never obtain 9th lvl spells or even epic level spells?

With the progression of

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Rogue 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 / EPIC Fochlucan Lyrist 6

I only get 14 lvls of druid casting before I reach lvl 21. So am I stuck with only 7th lvl spells or can I still acquire 9th or even 10th lvl spells in epic progression?

[iDesu]

Your spell casting can progress into epic levels. So if you can only cast 7th level spells by level 20 then you'll eventually be able to cast 9th level spells as long as you continue taking the appropriate spell casting classes. BAB, on the other hand, doesn't continue progressing past 20, which is why so many gish builds want at least 16 BAB by then.

[Os1ris09]

Ok... so I am hearing different things on hear than what I am reading in the Epic Lvl Handbook.


For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 20th level. Thus, a 23rd-level wizard casts as a 23rd-level character, while a 24th-level paladin’s caster level is 12th (one-half her class level). However, your spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

As it was explained to me by my group and DM that I have to have 9th spells by 20th level and with this passage it seems to me that I have to have 9th lvl spells before 20th level?

Can anyone help clarify the mechanics so that I can try to talk to my DM and make sure they understand how it works?

[Waker]

I know it had been mentioned a few times, but I'll bring it up again, since you seem concerned with losing caster levels. You can get Evasion with two feats, Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet). Taking those two feats will get rid of the need to take the rogue levels.

[Os1ris09]

I know it had been mentioned a few times, but I'll bring it up again, since you seem concerned with losing caster levels. You can get Evasion with two feats, Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet). Taking those two feats will get rid of the need to take the rogue levels.

I'm trying to avoid psionics and chakra stuff. The only thing that I am going to try to use outside of the complete series and core is that Green Whisperer class because it helps lead into Fochlucan Lyrist well.

Thank you though for bringing that to my attention again and I'll see if my DM will accept those feats. :smallsmile:

[Aracor]

As it was explained to me by my group and DM that I have to have 9th spells by 20th level and with this passage it seems to me that I have to have 9th lvl spells before 20th level?

Can anyone help clarify the mechanics so that I can try to talk to my DM and make sure they understand how it works?

The examples in the ELH are assuming that you've taken 20 levels in a class. This is easy to determine because it's talking about epic progressions of classes. The reason for this is that at level 20, a generalist wizard's spell can cast four of each level spells per day, plus bonus spells. The reason you don't get more spells beyond this point is because the table simply doesn't go any further. So caster level still goes up (because this way you can continue to break through level-appropriate spell resistance), but there simply ARE no more spells.

To further demonstrate this point, look at the spellcasting progression for Arcane Trickster in the SRD:

The epic arcane trickster’s caster level increases by 1 per level gained above 10th. The epic arcane trickster continues to gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) at each new level, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known of the arcane spellcasting class to which the arcane trickster belonged before adding the prestige class.

[Coidzor]

Well no matter how you spin the progression my question is do I still obtain spell levels into Epic campaigns or if I get stuck with 8th divine spells can I never obtain 9th lvl spells or even epic level spells?

With the progression of

Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Rogue 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 / EPIC Fochlucan Lyrist 6

I only get 14 lvls of druid casting before I reach lvl 21. So am I stuck with only 7th lvl spells or can I still acquire 9th or even 10th lvl spells in epic progression?

Your spellcasting can progress. It's your BAB which is screwed if you don't have full iterative attacks pre-epic.

[Os1ris09]

The examples in the ELH are assuming that you've taken 20 levels in a class. This is easy to determine because it's talking about epic progressions of classes. The reason for this is that at level 20, a generalist wizard's spell can cast four of each level spells per day, plus bonus spells. The reason you don't get more spells beyond this point is because the table simply doesn't go any further. So caster level still goes up (because this way you can continue to break through level-appropriate spell resistance), but there simply ARE no more spells.

To further demonstrate this point, look at the spellcasting progression for Arcane Trickster in the SRD:

Can you direct me to where you found that in the SRD so I can print it out and show it to my DM so that I have solid evidence?

[Coidzor]

Can you direct me to where you found that in the SRD so I can print it out and show it to my DM so that I have solid evidence?

This section, Arcane Trickster, under the Spells subheading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicArcaneTrickster)

[Os1ris09]

Sorry for the delay in responses. Was discussing with DM if he would allow Green Whisperer and what not Sunday as well as work... yay work... :smallfrown:

Anyways... how would the epic progression work for Fochlucan Lyrist?

Once I am above 20th level I gain BAB differently but what about saves and what not?

Do I get the save bonuses as normal once I'm in epic levels or do I gain them differently and I just gain the class abilities and spells till I hit level 10?