Rougelike classes

[20percentcooler]

Gearing up for a fourth level campaign, and looking for some fun Roguelike classes. I am going to be a lesser Drow. If any of you have ideas, I welcome the input!

[Thorvaldr]

Depends if you're looking for skill-monkey rogue, or sneak/stabby/assassin-type rogue. ... or a combination thereof. :smallbiggrin:

Or if you're going for a more magical-bent, Beguiler is always an option.

[Raineh Daze]

Any class with Disguise on the skill list, or magical means of same, should get you a 'rougelike' class. Makeup's included, after all. :smalltongue:

[20percentcooler]

I am honestly trying to avoid magic, and I am looking for the skill monkey thief-y rogue.

[Flickerdart]

Scout and Ninja are the most obvious not-rogues. There are also Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Spellthief, and Factotum.

Scout: Every other level, you get alternating +1d6 to damage and +1 to AC after you move 10+ feet in a round. Maxes out at +5d6/+5, of +7d6/+7 if you take Improved Skirmish. Has 8 skill points per level just like Rogue. Can be very potent in melee and at range. Swift Hunter stacks Ranger and Scout levels for this and lets you ignore the immunity to precision damage of Favored Enemies, which is boss. Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter is a great build for that reason.

Ninja: Sudden Strike is like SA but doesn't work when flanking. A bunch of ki powers that don't make up the difference. Only pick over Rogue if your DM gives you literally no magic items ever.

Lurk: Goes up to 4d6 SA, you can get more 1/round by spending power points. Super not worth it. Avoid.

Psychic Rogue: Psionic rogue done right. Goes up to +7d6 SA, can get up to 10d6 by using his Special Abilities, gets a small list of stealth-themed psionics.

Spellthief: Goes up to +5d6 SA, can use it to steal spells from casters. Extremely underwhelming at what is supposed to be its area of expertise (mage slaying) but does alright if you really try.

Factotum: Can spend per-encounter Inspiration Points to get Sneak Attack, but that's not the point. These guys have all skills as class skills, and can add their level to a skill check once per skill per day, plus a whole bunch of Intelligence-based abilities and a smattering of spell-like abilities.

Of these classes, only Factotum, Scout and Psychic Rogue are really worth more than a cursory glance, and Factotum is your best bet as a skillmonkey.

[Piggy Knowles]

*snip*

Good general stuff, but he left out one of my favorites - the incarnate (Magic of Incarnum). You shape soulmelds that, among other things, give you scaling bonuses to skills and other abilities.

[Waker]

Flickerdart covered most of the available choices. Only note is that Scouts do get Trapfinding.

There are a handful of other classes, though they do possess varying degrees of magic or magicish abilities.
Bard- Lot of skill points, an excellent skill list and a degree of combat abilities. They do have magic, most of which is focused around stealth, misdirection and buffing.
Factotum- Professional adventurers. They are know-it-alls, good combatants, and access to an array of magic.
Swordsage- Martial Artists with a great deal of sneaky potential. Between all the skill points and Shadow Hand techniques, they can make themselves very scarce.
Ranger- Urban Rangers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) can make excellent scouts and trackers, while still making highly competent fighters.

[sonofzeal]

Spellthief: Goes up to +5d6 SA, can use it to steal spells from casters. Extremely underwhelming at what is supposed to be its area of expertise (mage slaying) but does alright if you really try.
Everyone's underwhelming at mage-slaying. But note that you can "borrow" spells from party member, effectively granting them a free Quicken. Also, SLAs you steal/borrow aren't expended, so as long as there's a friendly source of SLAs around you can tap it infinitely. Combine with Summon spells for extra fun. And they are, at least, one of the best options for dealing with casters / caster-like monsters short of another caster.

They're party-dependent, is the thing. A spellthief in a party of spellcasters is a happy duck.

[Piggy Knowles]

Everyone's underwhelming at mage-slaying. But note that you can "borrow" spells from party member, effectively granting them a free Quicken. Also, SLAs you steal/borrow aren't expended, so as long as there's a friendly source of SLAs around you can tap it infinitely. Combine with Summon spells for extra fun. And they are, at least, one of the best options for dealing with casters / caster-like monsters short of another caster.

They're party-dependent, is the thing. A spellthief in a party of spellcasters is a happy duck.

A spellthief with Master Spellthief and Shadowcraft Mage could be a lot of fun in the right campaign, although that admittedly is moving further and further away from the original non-caster skillmonkey idea.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Conan d20 has the "Temptress" class, the only Rouge-like class to my knowledge. All these people suggesting factotem and beguiler, I was unaware they were glam-rockers.

[Jeff the Green]

Off the top of my head, Red Wizard and Crimson Scourge.

[Gildedragon]

You want the factotum.
Man they can do anything. Virtually anything anyway. They are the McGivver, the action hero and scholar.
I love them hard.

[SciChronic]

I would say factotum is a good place to look, my only real gripe with them is that they only get 6+int skill points vs the rogue's 8+int, this is amplified by the fact that they get all skills as class skills, even with a 20 starting int, are human, and have nymph's kiss, you dont have enough points because knowledge devotion just destroys your skill points.

if you want to be a combat rogue, a shadow hand + tiger claw swordsage would be pretty nice. and it you follow RAW they get 6+int x 6 at 1st level for some reason.

[Flickerdart]

Factotums get fewer skill points to start with, but as an Int primary class they will most likely get more skill points total.

[Harrow]

Factotum is good for skills, Spellthief/Unseen Seer is good for Sneak Attack.

Both don't mind some Chameleon on top, but to get the best use out of that you would want to mess around with the casting.

[Kane0]

I second the votes for Factotum and/or scout, both are pretty good.

[Sylthia]

Any class with Disguise on the skill list, or magical means of same, should get you a 'rougelike' class. Makeup's included, after all. :smalltongue:

Darn, came here to say that, and you stole it.

[koboldish]

Roguelikes? Nethack, Chasm, SOS: The Pit, Teleglitch, Red Rogue, etc...

Oh... You meant D&D classes. The only one I haven't noticed yet is beguiler, which doesn't have sneak attack. I've found them to be great utility casters, and they make very good skillmonkeys as well. I'm sorry I don't have any more.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you want to stay away from magic altogether (save items) you really only have two choices; rogue and scout. You can get away with ranger if you trade away its spellcasting. All the other options either have some magic (ninja, factotum, swordsage, normal ranger, psychic rogue) or have magic as a primary ability of the class (spellthief, incarnate, bard, lurk).

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, no class is more Roguelike than Rogue. So there's that. It's really pretty good, too; a versatile classic that defines how a class with unlimited-use abilities should work. Flexible, tactical, and brimming with potential. Lots of obvious synergies to exploit, but plenty of freedom to take things in various other directions as well.

The only complaint I can think of about Rogues is that Sneak Attack doesn't work on a bunch of things, but there are fixes for that. And other than that, I can't recall ever having seen it lamented as underpowered or overpowered or too narrow in scope or anything.

Other posters may consider it too obvious to recommend, but I'M NOT LETTING THAT STOP ME. :P

[eggynack]

With my super-powered originality abilities, I recommend to you the factotum! Seriously, they're a cool class. They get crazy skill havingness, tons of synergy, fancy abilities, and mighty iajatsu stabbing. They get some casting, which might be a downside, but it's pretty unobtrusive.

[Harrow]

Don't let casting put you off of the Factotum. They get a few Spell-likes per day that cost Inspiration points, which are very useful to you. You can honestly just ignore them and you won't be missing much. It's the all-encompassing skill list, Brain-Over-Brawn, and Cunning Surge, and the ability to get a good bonus to any given roll when you really need it that sell this class.

[Flickerdart]

The Factotum's SLAs aren't there to make him a caster. They are, like anything else about the class, a tool in his toolbox.

If the situation calls for a spell, the Factotum uses a spell. If the situation doesn't, he has plenty of other tools he can use instead. A proper caster doesn't really have non-spell tools, and can spam the spells that he has whenever. A big thing about the Factotum is that age-old problem, do I use this tool now or wait and use it later? A Beguiler never has to wonder, he just fires off his spontaneous spell, and if he needs that one again later, he can do it then too.

[Tvtyrant]

The list of none-terrible ones is Rogue, Psy Rogue, Factotum, Incarnate and Swordsage (54 skill points at level 1? Count me in!)

Any tier 1 can do it of course, especially Cleric and Halfling Substitution Druid (tiny wildshape at level 5 for owl is awesome.)

[Curmudgeon]

Factotums get fewer skill points to start with, but as an Int primary class they will most likely get more skill points total.
Compared to a Rogue? Not with most skill-focused builds. Using standard point buy gets you a 14 starting INT without paying a premium. A Factotum would need to begin with INT of 18 to just break even, then put at least 2 more points in INT (levels 4 & 8) to make your statement true starting after 8 levels. The Factotum can stay ahead just until level 10, at which the Rogue takes Skill Mastery to have more guaranteed successful skills, without rolling (known success DCs, like for Search, Disable Device, and Tumble) whereas the Factotum has to keep pumping those skills for the same chance of success. The Factotum, getting to add +5 to various skill checks, still isn't going to succeed as often as the Rogue with Skill Mastery, because the Factotum will fail on rolled 1-4 while the Rogue just uses "take 10". Then at level 12 the Rogue takes Savvy Rogue and instead can "take 12".

There's no "most likely" about it. Do the analysis, and at most levels the Rogue just has more success with more skills than the Factotum does.

[Gwendol]

My suggestion is to go daring outlaw (rogue-swashbuckler) using the swift and deadly swashbuckler ACF (Drows of the Underdark).

For more inspiration you can look here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264196

[Gildedragon]

Except a factotum gets a fair bit out of those 4 extra points in int: +2 to hit, damage, saves, ac, and all int, dex, and str skills.
Furthermore, getting to add +factotum level to the skill check means that even on a 1, the singleclassed factotum has out-rolled the rogue taking 10 at level 10.

There's about ca. 12 str and dex skills and ~17 int skills (not counting profession, and lumping all crafts together) the +2 to all of those is not inconsiderable; and has the effect of up to +82 effective bonus skillpoints (taking into account the benefit of brains over brawn) at level three (presuming you train all the int skills) for that investment of 18 in int over the 14 int rogue

[JaronK]

Also, for many skills you're only going to use them once per day. Forgery, for example. Or Craft. Often Knowledge or Diplomacy, but those depend on the campaign. A Factotum puts in 1 point, but effectively has 1+level in ranks for all of those skills. That rapidly puts them WELL ahead of the Rogue.

Furthermore, a Factotum with 20 Int has an effective +5 to Hide, Move Silently, and a host of other important Rogue skills... which is a really big deal.

In the end, Factotums outskill Rogues by a fair margin. It's really not even close.

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

Compared to a Rogue? Not with most skill-focused builds. Using standard point buy gets you a 14 starting INT without paying a premium. A Factotum would need to begin with INT of 18 to just break even, then put at least 2 more points in INT (levels 4 & 8) to make your statement true starting after 8 levels.[…]

There's no "most likely" about it. Do the analysis, and at most levels the Rogue just has more success with more skills than the Factotum does.

The actual claim, which was that Factota get more skill points eventually, is true, simply because they are so Int-focused (which you did not deny at any point). Whether they're better at actually skilling it up is a bit trickier to answer, but that's not what Flickerdart said.

So no, there's no "most likely" about it; it's well-nigh certain, admitted by even the most diehard Rogue proponents, that Factota get more skill points in total. :smallwink:

[Talionis]

I'm going to suggest going into Master of Masks prestige class from Complete Scoundrel. Its fairly easy to get into and in a low op game will be a lot of fun. Any of the suggestions here make for great entry. It plays a variety of roles well enough. After a few levels you can make your masks disappear which helps a little with disguises.

[Person_Man]

Which Skills do you care about?

[Curmudgeon]

So no, there's no "most likely" about it; it's well-nigh certain, admitted by even the most diehard Rogue proponents, that Factota get more skill points in total. :smallwink:
Superior skill points require that the Factotum starts with INT at least 6 points higher than the Rogue does, or starts with INT 4 points higher than the Rogue (for an initial tie) and increases INT mod by at least +1 afterward. I generally play Rogue characters, starting with INT 14 from point buy and getting +2 from my choice of race; that means 44 skill points at level 1. It's not uncommon for a Factotum player to spend the extra 10 points to start with an 18 INT rather than 14 (sacrificing other skills in the hope that Cunning Knowledge will dovetail with a lax DM who requires many skill checks only 1/day), but I've actually never seen a game where a Factotum had more skill points than one of my skill-focused Rogue characters.

Characters aren't allowed to start higher than 18 (before racial modifiers) in any attribute, and yet any character can get to a 14 without paying a premium under the point buy rules. That attribute difference is entirely covered by the superior number of skill points the Rogue gets. Given that a Rogue is more likely to benefit from increments to DEX later, the Factotum can pull ahead, after level 8. However, that's nowhere near "well-nigh certain".

[Flickerdart]

The difference is, of course, that a Factotum with 18 Intelligence applies that Intelligence to all of his class features, while a Rogue with 14 Intelligence basically only gets two skill points out of the deal.

[Curmudgeon]

The difference is, of course, that a Factotum with 18 Intelligence applies that Intelligence to all of his class features, while a Rogue with 14 Intelligence basically only gets two skill points out of the deal.
That's hardly the case. Search and Disable Device are INT-based core competencies for the Rogue. Add Knowledge Devotion and the Rogue not only puts those extra skill points to use but also leverages INT-based Knowledge skill checks for bonuses to attack and damage. Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue together will make the Rogue hit more often than full BAB classes starting from about level 14 (when the maximum Knowledge Devotion +5 to hit and damage can be guaranteed, without rolling).

[Gildedragon]

Thing is those are Factotum things too. Knowledge devotion is one of the key feats for a factotum, reducing the penalty of a mediocre str or dex. Where the 18 int character puts 1 point into an Int skill, the 14 int character needs to put in 3 skill points.

That eats into the rogue's skill-point bonus if they want to play catch-up with the factotum.

[Flickerdart]

You may be surprised to find that not only is Knowledge Devotion not a Rogue class feature, but Rogues only get a single Knowledge skill in-class.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you compare a rogue with all its special abilities and feats to augment them to a pared down factotum that is just 6 SP/lvl and Brains Over Brawn, I guess I can agree that rogues might come out on top as skill monkeys, although it 's surprisingly close.

But a factotum also gets spells, inspiration-based abilities and a better skill list that take away any ambiguity about which is going to be more useful...

[Curmudgeon]

Where the 18 int character puts 1 point into an Int skill, the 14 int character needs to put in 3 skill points.

That eats into the rogue's skill-point bonus if they want to play catch-up with the factotum.
The Rogue pulls ahead at levels 10 and 12. At level 10 they get Skill Mastery, so they can "take 10" on all mastered skills. Whereas the Factotum can get to the maximum Knowledge Devotion benefit some of the time before the Rogue can, the Rogue from level 10 on never has to worry about rolls of 1-9. From level 12, with Savvy Rogue, they never worry about rolls of 1-11; they "take 12" instead. If the Factotum wants to max out Knowledge Devotion bonuses, battle after battle all day long, they have to put in enough points to get there with a rolled 1. The Rogue is always there with an unrolled 12. So yes, the Factotum can have an INT modifier that's 2 higher than the Rogue, and yet they're still 9 points behind, some of the time, versus the Rogue's skill checks. Once I get my Rogues to the minimum Knowledge ranks so they always make DC 36, I need never invest any more ranks in those skills; I've guaranteed maximum (+5) results. The Factotum will still be getting +3 and +4 sometimes, and other times will get skill checks higher than required for the +5 maximum. For results that consistently match my Rogue, the Factotum player needs to keep pumping their skill points into the 6 Knowledges related to creature types long after I've finished.

If a player wants their Rogue to Tumble successfully at a certain DC over and over, they invest just enough to succeed with an unrolled 10 or 12. The Factotum with Brains Over Brawn gets a boost to their Tumble check — but still has to deal with the consequences of a rolled 1. Skill check results above the required DC, which the Factotum can (on average) deliver, don't make any difference; results below the required DC, which the Factotum will also have, do make a difference. A failed Tumble check trying to get through an enemy's space means an AoO immediately, during which you're subject to the squeezing rules (-4 penalty to AC, plus double movement cost). Your Factotum will likely get hurt, and then also probably can't get away to avoid more attack(s) on the enemy's regular turn. In contrast, I always know what my Rogue's Tumble check result will be, in advance; success is guaranteed.

Yes, the Factotum's got some nifty class features that make them good with a lot of skills. They still don't have Skill Mastery or Savvy Rogue.

[Gildedragon]

It takes a bit of effort for a Factotum to take 10 on any given skill.
Firstly, note that skill mastery grants its bonus to merely 5 skills.

With a base int of 18+ a factotum need only worry about rolls 1-5 versus taking 10 in the case of str-dex skills, when compared to a rogue that is taking 10

In the case of the knowledge skills: the factotum is "worse" in rolls 1-7; with the bonus to intelligence narrows the margin between taking 10 and rolling. But the emphasis on Int as a primary ability closes this gap quickly. And the class features Cunning Knowledge and Arcane Dilettante only exacerbate the factotum's skill dominance.

Additionally getting effective skill mastery can be attained via feats Ancestral Whispers being one such way. If pathfinder material is allowed, the kirin style line of feats provides the benefit to knowledge skills.

Overall even with skill mastery the rogue pales against the factotum. Key factors in this is: the limited knowledge skills (local only), sharply limited number of skills skill mastery applies to (3+int, with int not being the primary stat), and the need to eschew other defensive options to get skill mastery.

[Curmudgeon]

Firstly, note that skill mastery grants its bonus to merely 5 skills.
That's certainly not what the special ability says:
Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. The canny Rogue will borrow, buy, or burgle a Headband of Intellect +6 before selecting Skill Mastery, gaining 3 more mastered skills. There's no restriction to permanent INT modifier. So, typically, my Rogues will master 9 skills:

14 starting INT with point buy
+2 racial bonus to INT
+6 Headband of Intellect

Overall even with skill mastery the rogue pales against the factotum. Key factors in this is: the limited knowledge skills (local only), sharply limited number of skills skill mastery applies to (3+int, with int not being the primary stat), and the need to eschew other defensive options to get skill mastery. It's easy enough to get all Knowledges as class skills, since the Education feat does exactly that. And I don't know what you're going on about "other defensive options"; after Skill Mastery, Crippling Strike is the next special ability to choose, and that's purely offensive rather than defensive.

[eggynack]

Just for clarity's sake, where is the rogue getting a starting intelligence of 14 from? I've always been inclined to believe that rogues max dexterity first, constitution second, and intelligence third. They already get a pile of skill points without intelligence, so they don't really need the extras, and they kinda do need dexterity and constitution, between their enemy stabbing nature, their low hit die, and their light armor. I also don't know what exact race you'd take to get an intelligence bonus. They obviously exist, but you need some justification to take one over a human, or better yet, a strongheart halfling. The point I'm trying to make is that, while some rogues might put the amount of effort into skills that you claim, they certainly don't all do so. Simultaneously, a factotum will always and forever put maximum everything into intelligence, because everything they do is keyed off of it.

Edit: Also, I feel like there must be some relevance to the fact that factotums get all skills as class skills, while rogues do not. The rogue skill list is great, but the factotum list is always going to be better, no matter what you do to circumvent that (I mean, there might be something I don't know about that'll get a rogue all skills as class skills, but that'd put them equal at best). There've gotta be some skills that a factotum likes to put points into, and a rogue fails to do so.

[Thurbane]

OK, I know the OP said no caster-like classes, but the Beguiler pretty much does everything the Rogue does but better - apart from sneak attack, and even that can be done with items, feats and PrC dips...

"Hey, I am a Rogue and a Sorcerer gestalt with more spells known all in one"...well, slight exaggeration, but not by a lot.

[Mr.Bookworm]

That's certainly not what the special ability says: The canny Rogue will borrow, buy, or burgle a Headband of Intellect +6 before selecting Skill Mastery, gaining 3 more mastered skills. There's no restriction to permanent INT modifier. So, typically, my Rogues will master 9 skills:

You'll lose them as soon as you take off the headband, though.


+2 racial bonus to INT

That's a hell of an assumption to make. Most of the best rogue races don't get bonuses to Int (the only one is the Lesser Tiefling). Very few races get a bonus to Int, period, come to that.


It's easy enough to get all Knowledges as class skills, since the Education feat does exactly that.

Feats are more precious than gold. If Class A can do something without the aid of a feat that Class B requires a feat to do, Class A is coming out ahead on that deal.


after Skill Mastery, Crippling Strike is the next special ability to choose, and that's purely offensive rather than defensive.

Yes, the One True Way to play a Rogue requires Crippling Strike at level 13, just like you have to take Skill Mastery at level 10.

Or maybe, just maybe, not all rogue characters are alike.

EDIT: I would include the Beguiler for consideration. It's an Int-primary caster with something resembling the Rogue's skill list and 6+Int skill points; you're going to be rolling in skills. You'll be a spellcaster, but the Beguiler's spell list is geared towards Rogue-y things. Illusions, enchantments, that sort of thing.

[Piggy Knowles]

I mostly agree with what Bookworm said except the bit about a lack of good +Int races. Gray/fire elf's actually a pretty solid choice for a rogue, thanks to longbow proficiency and some solid skill bonuses. The Con penalty hurts, but there are ways around that (necropolitan is best, but FMI can work in a pinch).

[Gwendol]

INT 14 is certainly desired for a rogue, I know mine have that.
Typical array I would recommend for a rogue is:
STR 12
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 12

[Harrow]

A Factotum can dip Exemplar at level 11 for Skill Mastery in 1+INT mod skills. This will delay your progression of a few class abilities by a level, but I find it very convenient.

[Gildedragon]

I was going off no skill increases, magical or otherwise, in my comparison. Presuming a rogue willing to cut off the nose to spite the face by downing all their WBL on a single item, I'd be willing to say that such a rogue would stand a chance (and sometimes succeed) against a less single purpose factotum when it comes to skills. But such a rogue would do little more.

Provided the factotum is not an option, the rogue is good, but if the factotum is around it is the definition of versatility and skill-prowess.

[Zombimode]

Ninja: Sudden Strike is like SA but doesn't work when flanking. A bunch of ki powers that don't make up the difference. Only pick over Rogue if your DM gives you literally no magic items ever.

Having actually played a Ninja, single classed all the way up to level 15, I can say that it is underrated. Ghost Step is a really good ability. It actually makes the ninja more reliable and self-sufficient then the rogue.

[Curmudgeon]

Just for clarity's sake, where is the rogue getting a starting intelligence of 14 from? I've always been inclined to believe that rogues max dexterity first, constitution second, and intelligence third. With point buy I start both DEX and INT at 14, before racial adjustments. Emphasizing CON assumes you're going to be in melee a lot, which I think is foolhardy. CON takes a lower priority for a ranged attacker. I strongly recommend that Rogues avoid melee until they've gained some magical protection so that enemies can't easily hit them.

You'll lose them as soon as you take off the headband, though. That's not what the rules say. Check step 9. Class Features of the LEVEL ADVANCEMENT sequence, Player's Handbook pages 58-59. When you select Skill Mastery you pick your skills and they're mastered from that point on.

Most of the best rogue races don't get bonuses to Int (the only one is the Lesser Tiefling). Very few races get a bonus to Int, period, come to that.
I'm fond of the Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, page 20): +2 to both DEX and INT.

Feats are more precious than gold. If Class A can do something without the aid of a feat that Class B requires a feat to do, Class A is coming out ahead on that deal.
I tend to agree with you. Education isn't the only way to get Knowledges as class skills. The Rogue gets Knowledge (local) to deal with all Humanoids, and Knowledge Devotion adds another Knowledge skill of your choice. If you're going to be multiclassing you can pick up others and send all the skill points at the dip into that skill (just for efficiency, to avoid most of the cross-class penalties). Some people like a Wizard dip for Abrupt Jaunt; others go for a Cloistered Cleric dip and pick up Travel Devotion. Both of these help the Rogue to make full melee attacks and then get away from the full counterattacks that the Rogue should avoid.

There isn't just one way to build a Rogue character; there are many. However, if you're going to be building a Rogue focused on skills, there are some practical consequences of pursuing that strategy. A skill-focused Rogue will go for Skill Mastery; failing to make that selection means that you're not a skill-focused Rogue.