Sunder counters rogues?

[Shoelessme]

So I was looking over the rules for fighters and I noticed this
"
Step 2
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.
"
Improved Sunder gives another +4 and removes the AoO

So since rogues and two weapon fighters usually use light weapons and a sunder build would use a 2 handed weapon you start with a +12. If your using enlarge spells alot it might be a +16. You only need 15 hit points of damage to break a normal light weapon (10 for hardness 5 hp for light weapons). If its magic I think that the hardness goes up to 12 but no extra hit points? (check me here please) If you use the reaces of stone dwarven craft option this goes up quite a bit. Few people seem to think to do so though. Regardless its not hard to hit for 15-20 damage as a warrior with a 2 hander. So, even without combat brute at level 6 a fight goes like this.

Rogue/twf jumps out of no where and stabs you for a but load of damage.
Owwww.
Then you break one of his puny weapons. He then desides to draw a new weapon. AoO witch you use as a standard attack to break his other weapon. He cant tumble out of range and attack, if he tumbles out to draw new weapons (witch probably arn't as good as the ones you broke) you charge him and he has an even worse day.

Am I missing anything? Yes you can use some ninja invisible shenanigans to make this slightly less painful. But i'm not sure it would we all that nice anyway. How many expensive enchanted daggers/rapiers/ whatever do you carry?

[BowStreetRunner]

If its magic I think that the hardness goes up to 12 but no extra hit points? (check me here please)
Both hardness and hp are improved by an enhancement bonus.

Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and 10 to the item’s hit points.
Also drawing a weapon does not provoke an AoO.

As for sundering against rogues, the last rogue I played used quick draw and thrown weapons and had tons of daggers on him. So there are certainly builds less vulnerable to sunder.

[Shoelessme]

Also drawing a weapon does not provoke an AoO.

I stand corrected. Misread that sidebar.

A question thought. Does combat brutes:
Sundering Cleave: To use this maneuver, you must destroy a foe's weapon or shield with a successful sunder attempt (see page 158 of the Player's Handbook). If you do so, you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe. The additional attack is with the same weapon and at the same attack bonus as the attack that destroyed the weapon or shield.

Could you use this to sunder multiple weapons? Since sunder is technically an attack against the person as well.
I know you can Sunder as an AoO, can you Sunder as a cleave?

[Shoelessme]

Also if you don't mind me asking. If I have a +1 Vorprol short sword (required to have a+1 before i enchant with vorporal (+5 equivalent)) does it count as a +6 enhancement weapon for hardness and hp or just a +1 since only the first +1 is an enhancement bonus?

[DeltaEmil]

Also if you don't mind me asking. If I have a +1 Vorprol short sword (required to have a+1 before i enchant with vorporal (+5 equivalent)) does it count as a +6 enhancement weapon for hardness and hp or just a +1 since only the first +1 is an enhancement bonus?It only counts as a +1, so it gets +10 hp and 2 additional hardness.

[Shoelessme]

It only counts as a +1, so it gets +10 hp and 2 additional hardness.

Thank you,
Also I was wrong in my first post. Light weapons have 2 hp. one handed weapons have 5.

[Shoelessme]

If both people involved in the sunder attempt have Improved Sunder does the defender get to add the +4 to his attack roll as well?

[Grayson01]

It count's as a +6 weapon for hardness and HP. Just as a +1 Keen Rapier counts as a +2 weapon for Hardness and HP.


Also if you don't mind me asking. If I have a +1 Vorprol short sword (required to have a+1 before i enchant with vorporal (+5 equivalent)) does it count as a +6 enhancement weapon for hardness and hp or just a +1 since only the first +1 is an enhancement bonus?

[Shoelessme]

Well the two of you seem to disagree. Any idea where to look up the raw?

[Flickerdart]

The rules say that "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points." So only the actual enhancement bonus (that is, the +1 in a +1 Vorpal sword) counts for hardness.

[BowStreetRunner]

It count's as a +6 weapon for hardness and HP. Just as a +1 Keen Rapier counts as a +2 weapon for Hardness and HP.

Not sure you decided this, but only the enhancement bonus counts toward hardness and hp. Special abilities do not.

Edit: from the SRD "Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat." and "In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. "

[Shoelessme]

The rules say that "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points." So only the actual enhancement bonus (that is, the +1 in a +1 Vorpal sword) counts for hardness.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well the two of you seem to disagree. Any idea where to look up the raw?

DMG chapter 7.

It's only +10 hps and +2 hardness as it only has a +1 enhacement. Other magical attributes have a +X equivalent value only for pricing and maximum total magical abilities.

Edit: Ninjas are less suprising when you're only typing with one finger.

[Shoelessme]

I appreciate the responses even if someone else beat you to it. If nothing else volume adds legitimacy....most of the time.

Can you Gents clear up the other 2 rule questions I had?
1. Can you cleave from weapon to weapon with combat brute?
EDIT: Or weapon to shield?
2. If both people have improved sunder does the defender also get to add +4 to his role?

[herrhauptmann]

I appreciate the responses even if someone else beat you to it. If nothing else volume adds legitimacy....most of the time.

Can you Gents clear up the other 2 rule questions I had?
1. Can you cleave from weapon to weapon with combat brute?
EDIT: Or weapon to shield?
2. If both people have improved sunder does the defender also get to add +4 to his role?

I'd say:
1) No.
Also, you might not want to. You're destroying loot when you do this, so destroying as little loot as possible is desirable.
2) Yes.

[BowStreetRunner]

1. Can you cleave from weapon to weapon with combat brute? EDIT: Or weapon to shield?

The rule for Combat Brute states that if you are successful with a sunder attack "you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe." It doesn't specify what type of attack you have to make, so you could follow-up with a special attack, including sunder. In fact, if you are successful with the second sunder attack, this effect would trigger again, giving you a third attack.


2. If both people have improved sunder does the defender also get to add +4 to his role?

The rule states explicitly that "You also gain a +4 bonus on any attack roll made to attack an object held or carried by another character." Since the defender is not making an attack roll to attack an object held or carried by another character, the defender does not get the +4 bonus.

Edit: just to be clear, the +4 referred to here is the bonus from Improved Sunder and not the bonus for a two-handed weapon or from the size category. Those bonuses apply to both combatants.

[Shoelessme]

We seem to have another disagreement. I tend to agree with Bow Street Runner as your opinion is well reasoned. But, Her Hauptman if you would like to counter with your resonaing I am very willing to consider your position as well.

[Shoelessme]

I'm going to repost this as a thread to clarify sunder rules.

[Telonius]

Also if you don't mind me asking. If I have a +1 Vorprol short sword (required to have a+1 before i enchant with vorporal (+5 equivalent)) does it count as a +6 enhancement weapon for hardness and hp or just a +1 since only the first +1 is an enhancement bonus?

A short sword can't be vorpal. It deals piercing damage, and vorpal requires slashing.

[Shoelessme]

A short sword can't be vorpal. It deals piercing damage, and vorpal requires slashing.

You are correct sir. The type of weapon was less important to me then the hardness rules is all.

[Samalpetey]

I appreciate the responses even if someone else beat you to it. If nothing else volume adds legitimacy....most of the time.

Can you Gents clear up the other 2 rule questions I had?
1. Can you cleave from weapon to weapon with combat brute?
EDIT: Or weapon to shield?
2. If both people have improved sunder does the defender also get to add +4 to his role?

I think you can't make another sunder attempt with combat brute, as it states you attack the enemy, while sunder is an attack on his equipment

[Coidzor]

Just, if you're going to be going around breaking weapons as a regular tactic, you should see about importing the rules from pathfinder where you can repair broken items, especially broken magical items so that you're not impoverishing yourself in the process.

[Spuddles]

If nothing else volume adds legitimacy....most of the time.

Something something markov chain monte carlo....

[Shoelessme]

Just, if you're going to be going around breaking weapons as a regular tactic, you should see about importing the rules from pathfinder where you can repair broken items, especially broken magical items so that you're not impoverishing yourself in the process.

I had thought of this. There are some interesting reasons/compensation in the world/campaign I'm running. but they are sorta homerule so I was avoiding posting them in the non homerule section.

[Coidzor]

I had thought of this. There are some interesting reasons/compensation in the world/campaign I'm running. but they are sorta homerule so I was avoiding posting them in the non homerule section.

You're allowed to talk about houserules and homebrew that you're using in a game here, just if you want to present the full framework of homebrew for critique or as a full reference you're supposed to do it in the other sub-forum, was my understanding.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think you can't make another sunder attempt with combat brute, as it states you attack the enemy, while sunder is an attack on his equipment

I thought about this, since the wording states "you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe." When I look at the rules for normal melee attacks and special attacks, they are a bit vague on certain points. However, where the sunder rules state "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding." I took it to mean that as long as 1) you can make a melee attack against an opponent and 2) you are using a slashing or bludgeoning weapon then you can use that melee attack against an object they are holding instead.

Note that this is just my interpretation and I admit the rules are vague enough here that I would not argue with any DM who ruled otherwise. There just isn't anything I can find that definitively resolves this without any question.

On a side note, while looking the rules on this up I was really amused by the part where you can use a sunder attempt against carried creatures. I can just see going up to the Half-Ogre carrying the halfling and saying "I attempt to sunder your halfling!" :smallbiggrin:

[Shoelessme]

I thought about this, since the wording states "you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe." When I look at the rules for normal melee attacks and special attacks, they are a bit vague on certain points. However, where the sunder rules state "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding." I took it to mean that as long as 1) you can make a melee attack against an opponent and 2) you are using a slashing or bludgeoning weapon then you can use that melee attack against an object they are holding instead.

Note that this is just my interpretation and I admit the rules are vague enough here that I would not argue with any DM who ruled otherwise. There just isn't anything I can find that definitively resolves this without any question.

On a side note, while looking the rules on this up I was really amused by the part where you can use a sunder attempt against carried creatures. I can just see going up to the Half-Ogre carrying the halfling and saying "I attempt to sunder your halfling!" :smallbiggrin:

Well reasoned, also I as a DM I would grant you the right to sunder that halfling! Ill even come up with flavor text for the effect! As an aside. Would you mind coping what you just said into the thread I started "All about sundering Rules of the game?" It seems like it would answer the question I asked on Combat brute.

Appreciate it.

[Shoelessme]

You're allowed to talk about houserules and homebrew that you're using in a game here, just if you want to present the full framework of homebrew for critique or as a full reference you're supposed to do it in the other sub-forum, was my understanding.

Alright, then real quickly. I am running a viking inspired campaign. It is a very metal poor area so metal has some value by itself even in a broken state. I just houseruled that materials are worth 2/3 of the cost of an item. Instead of 1/3. this shows that labor is cheep but materials are spendy. Its fairly low magic to so alot of lute will be easy to sell even broken. I also houseruled that magic items broken can be repaired. Just not easily. Probably have to deal with the Nibelung (scary dwarves) and bargain with them for magic repairs.

[Curmudgeon]

Sundered magic items can already be repaired; they just cost 1/2 the normal crafting cost as if you were starting from scratch. That's considerably more expensive than just a level 0 Mending spell, which is all that's required for a damaged but not yet broken dagger or mithral short sword, or Make Whole for a heavier weapon.

In addition to ranged Rogues, you have to consider that some will fight unarmed in melee so there's no weapon you can sunder. Bracers of Striking grant the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and only cost 1,310 gp. Greater Magic Fang + Permanency mean that you have to be good at Dispel Magic rather than sundering attacks to reduce the Rogue's melee effectiveness.

[ksbsnowowl]

Alright, then real quickly. I am running a viking inspired campaign. It is a very metal poor area so metal has some value by itself even in a broken state. I just houseruled that materials are worth 2/3 of the cost of an item. Instead of 1/3. this shows that labor is cheep but materials are spendy. Its fairly low magic to so alot of lute will be easy to sell even broken. I also houseruled that magic items broken can be repaired. Just not easily. Probably have to deal with the Nibelung (scary dwarves) and bargain with them for magic repairs.Yeah, lots of skalds in viking society. They could probably tune those lutes back into a fine instrument.

I'm also running a viking-themed game. I'll shoot you a PM with some more info, if you want to scavenge it.

[Shoelessme]

Sundered magic items can already be repaired; they just cost 1/2 the normal crafting cost as if you were starting from scratch. That's considerably more expensive than just a level 0 Mending spell, which is all that's required for a damaged but not yet broken dagger or mithral short sword, or Make Whole for a heavier weapon.

In addition to ranged Rogues, you have to consider that some will fight unarmed in melee so there's no weapon you can sunder. Bracers of Striking grant the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and only cost 1,310 gp. Greater Magic Fang + Permanency mean that you have to be good at Dispel Magic rather than sundering attacks to reduce the Rogue's melee effectiveness.

Hmm. not sure that works how you think it works. First off the Permanency for magic fang requires a lvl 9 caster. Either you or you have to find someone willing. Then 1 good dispell and your out alot of money. At low levels sunder works but these tricks mostly dont. Second the unarmed strike bracers are hard to find and/or enchant. You can also sunder bracers.

Third the 0 level mending is very iffy. It only works on 1 object of 1 lb or less. This does not mean you can cast it multiple times on a big heavy object. nor can you repair it in 1 lb pieces. The object has to be at or under 1 lb. So a dagger can be repaired. nothing bigger can be. You have to go up to the 3rd level spell "make whole" to get any real use.

[Curmudgeon]

Second the unarmed strike bracers are hard to find and/or enchant. You can also sunder bracers.
I don't know why Bracers of Striking would be harder to find than any other magic item; then of course that's up to your DM. But you can guarantee that your Bracers can't be sundered if you add an armor bonus using the "Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items" rules in Magic Item Compendium (pages 233-234).
You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. There's an even simpler solution: just wear them under a shirt. You can't sunder anything you don't have line of sight to.

Third the 0 level mending is very iffy. It only works on 1 object of 1 lb or less. This does not mean you can cast it multiple times on a big heavy object. nor can you repair it in 1 lb pieces. The object has to be at or under 1 lb. So a dagger can be repaired. nothing bigger can be. I already mentioned mithral short swords; those only weigh 1 lb. for a Medium character.

[TuggyNE]

But you can guarantee that your Bracers can't be sundered if you add an armor bonus using the "Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items" rules in Magic Item Compendium (pages 233-234).

Is there a definition of armor anywhere that includes magic items that grant armor bonuses?

[Curmudgeon]

Is there a definition of armor anywhere that includes magic items that grant armor bonuses?
No, there's no definition of armor in the rules. However, there is a definition of armor bonus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_armorbonus&alpha=):
armor bonus

A bonus to Armor Class granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. At least from what is defined, physical armor which grants an armor bonus and a magical effect which grants an armor bonus are treated identically.

[TuggyNE]

No, there's no definition of armor in the rules.

Other than, perhaps, the actual listing of armors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm). Or is there some obscure reason that doesn't qualify?


However, there is a definition of armor bonus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_armorbonus&alpha=): At least from what is defined, physical armor which grants an armor bonus and a magical effect which grants an armor bonus are treated identically.

Sure, but what makes "magical thing that grants a typed bonus" and "mundane equipment that happens to grant a typed bonus" equivalent for purposes of sundering?

[Curmudgeon]

Other than, perhaps, the actual listing of armors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm). Or is there some obscure reason that doesn't qualify? I don't see any claim that Table 7–6: Armor and Shields is a comprehensive listing. Armor from other D&D books should count, too; Mountain Plate in Races of Stone is also armor, right? Well, Bracers of Armor and Robe of the Archmagi are in Dungeon Master's Guide, and both of them grant armor bonuses, too.

Of course, I still don't see an actual definition in the Armor section of the Equipment chapter. I'm staring at page 122 of Player's Handbook, and the closest I see to one is this:
Your armor protects you in combat, but it can also slow you down. There are no disclaimers in the item descriptions for Bracers of Armor and Robe of the Archmagi that the armor bonuses these items grant somehow fail the "protect you in combat" specification.

[Shoelessme]

Why would you make a short sword out of mithril? Alot more expensive for virtually no benefit. Mithril doesn't penetrate any dr that I can think of. It doesn't make the item harder or have more health. All it does is make it lighter. For a small weapon that is kind of a waste of your time.

[Mirakk]

It doesn't make the item harder or have more health.

Actually, Mithril is hardness 15, compared to steel's hardness 10. a 50% increase.

[Shoelessme]

I don't see any claim that Table 7–6: Armor and Shields is a comprehensive listing. Armor from other D&D books should count, too; Mountain Plate in Races of Stone is also armor, right? Well, Bracers of Armor and Robe of the Archmagi are in Dungeon Master's Guide, and both of them grant armor bonuses, too.

Of course, I still don't see an actual definition in the Armor section of the Equipment chapter. I'm staring at page 122 of Player's Handbook, and the closest I see to one is this: There are no disclaimers in the item descriptions for Bracers of Armor and Robe of the Archmagi that the armor bonuses these items grant somehow fail the "protect you in combat" specification.
You are grasping at straws and I think you know it. This is patently absurd. The only piece that cannot be sundered is the chest slot armor. Yes some armors take up extra slots. But in general even a helm with magic effects can be sundered. it just removes the magic effect it doesn't drop your AC

[Shoelessme]

Actually, Mithril is hardness 15, compared to steel's hardness 10. a 50% increase.

I stand corrected. Still dont see why you would use mithril mind you. but you do get an extra 5 hardness aparently.

[Drelua]

I stand corrected. Still dont see why you would use mithril mind you. but you do get an extra 5 hardness aparently.

Well, mithral's pretty good for some characters. A small dagger weighs half a pound and mithral weapons cost 500/pound, so a halfling rogue can get basically get a masterwork dagger for 250 gold. Of course, other than that one corner case, it is generally a waste of money. Not a lot of money, but still.

[Medic!]

Bracers of Armor are Wondrous Items are they not? That should put them on the Can-Sunder side of fake-life.

[TuggyNE]

I don't see any claim that Table 7–6: Armor and Shields is a comprehensive listing. Armor from other D&D books should count, too; Mountain Plate in Races of Stone is also armor, right? Well, Bracers of Armor and Robe of the Archmagi are in Dungeon Master's Guide, and both of them grant armor bonuses, too.

Without seeing the listing for mountain plate, I can't say for sure, but I strongly suspect the wording is consistent with adding to the list of existing armors. The need for Armor Proficiency (as noted in the section) also supports this; neither bracers nor robe need any proficiency at all.


There are no disclaimers in the item descriptions for Bracers of Armor and Robe of the Archmagi that the armor bonuses these items grant somehow fail the "protect you in combat" specification.

Ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, ring of shielding, and other magic items also grant AC bonuses (which seems like they should "protect you in combat"). Do those count? How about lesser cloak of displacement?

Or are you assuming that "armor bonus" and "armor you wear" are somehow connected? Because I find that an unjustifiable assertion.

In other words, what magically makes one specific magic bracer unsunderable, but not others?