House Rules for fixing negative-level metamagic cheese

[Maginomicon]

I want to add new house rules to eliminate all negative-level metamagic cheese, so I've been adding entries to my house rules document which accomplish this. However, I want to word it as unambiguously as possible without being unnecessarily verbose.

To be clear, when I say "negative-level metamagic cheese", I'm referring to any effect which reduces the spell slot level to anything less than the spell's original non-metamagick'd spell slot level.


Change the benefit text to the following:
“A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but a sanctum spell not cast in your sanctum has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All spell effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the effective level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level and uses the spell slot’s level for all effects not specific to the spell.”

Similarly, for Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus, and Metanode Spell...

Append the following to the feat’s benefit:
“You cannot reduce the spell slot required for a metamagic effect to lower than one higher than the spell’s normal level.”

Additionally, for the Anima Mage's Vestige Metamagic class feature (the change is marked in red)...
Rewrite the text of the “Vestige Metamagic” class feature to read the following:
“At 4th level, you can use a bound vestige to augment your spells by temporarily giving up access to its powers. Using vestige metamagic is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Choose one of the vestiges to which you are bound whenever you activate this ability. You can then apply the effects of any metamagic feat that you possess to a spell you cast that round, without increasing the level of the spell slot required to cast it. However, you lose access to all the abilities and powers granted by the chosen vestige upon activation and do not regain them for 5 rounds. You cannot use this ability if you do not have a vestige bound, or if you do not currently have access to its abilities (through the use of this ability, an antimagic field, or some other effect). Vestige metamagic is usable once per day at 5th level, two times per day at 7th level, and three times per day at 9th level.”

What I want to know is...
What other negative-level metamagic cheese am I missing? What changes do you think should be made to the above house rules (or what new house rules should be made to other negative-level metamagic cheese I haven't accounted for) to accomplish my goals stated above?

NOTE: If you're going to complain about making house rules affecting a form of negative-level metamagic cheese, don't, as you won't be helping matters.

EDIT: Specifically in my house rules document, adding a blanket "no metamagic effect etc. etc." entry would be often overlooked (and thus useless) because the house rules document is over 100 pages long as-is (although it's text-searchable). For that reason, it's far more effective to include changes on a case-by-case basis.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Or you could just say "metamagic level reduction can't reduce the level modifier below +0".

[lightningcat]

Or you could just say "metamagic level reduction can't reduce the level modifier below +0".

This is the rule I use. Simple, easy, and if broken is worth tossing the player out.

[Maginomicon]

Or you could just say "metamagic level reduction can't reduce the level modifier below +0".Damn. I knew I forgot to mention something.

Specifically in my house rules document, adding a blanket "no metamagic effect etc. etc." entry would be often overlooked (and thus useless) because the house rules document is over 100 pages long as-is (although it's text-searchable). For that reason, it's far more effective to include changes on a case-by-case basis.

[Kornaki]

Damn. I knew I forgot to mention something.

Specifically in my house rules document, adding a blanket "no metamagic effect etc. etc." entry would be often overlooked (and thus useless) because the house rules document is over 100 pages long as-is (although it's text-searchable). For that reason, it's far more effective to include changes on a case-by-case basis.

Wait, wouldn't it be way easier to look up "the metamagic rule" than to have to look up a separate rule for each type of metamagic or something crazy like that?

Also have you considered your insistence on ten rules when one would work might be contributing to your current house rule issues?

[Maginomicon]

Wait, wouldn't it be way easier to look up "the metamagic rule" than to have to look up a separate rule for each type of metamagic or something crazy like that?

Also have you considered your insistence on ten rules when one would work might be contributing to your current house rule issues?I have considered it, but in practice when a character adds a feat, feature, spell, or anything specific to their character sheet, it's by far more effective for them to search the text for the name of a specific feature than to search for a categorically-related subject.

[Kornaki]

OK that makes sense. In that case I would recommend having the single metamagic rule, but in the description saying something like "in particular when using feats such as vestige metamagic, invisible spell, [insert other cheesy feats here] this rule prevents you from mitigating metamagic costs from other feats"

That way when they search for the feat they are brought to the metamagic rule

[Crake]

I dont know why you would want to limit metamagic reduction tricks for arcane users (who need to go through so many hoops to achieve it) when divine metamagic can do it for clerics with just 1 feat per metamagic type?

[Harrow]

It may be a little extreme, but you could just do a blanket ban on all Metamagic reduction. No Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Metamagic School Focus, Divine Metamagic, none of the Incantatrix sillyness, all gone. It's a pretty big hit to caster's but it hardly makes them unplayable.

[Maginomicon]

I dont know why you would want to limit metamagic reduction tricks for arcane users (who need to go through so many hoops to achieve it) when divine metamagic can do it for clerics with just 1 feat per metamagic type?Because READ THE OP!
NOTE: If you're going to complain about making house rules affecting a form of negative-level metamagic cheese, don't, as you won't be helping matters.

[TuggyNE]

Parsing Sanctum Spell, I'm not quite sure it actually fixes the Sanctum Spell arcane fusion stuff.

[jaybird]

I have considered it, but in practice when a character adds a feat, feature, spell, or anything specific to their character sheet, it's by far more effective for them to search the text for the name of a specific feature than to search for a categorically-related subject.

Then just have all the specific features read "See: Metamagic Reduction" :smallconfused:

Personally, I find "no metamagic feat may have its spell level adjustment reduced below +0" to be fine for higher power games. For lower power games, adjust that to "no metamagic feat may have its spell level adjustment reduced to below half of its normal adjustment, rounding down".

[Maginomicon]

Parsing Sanctum Spell, I'm not quite sure it actually fixes the Sanctum Spell arcane fusion stuff.The errata for arcane fusion already fixes that.
Include clause, “If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.”That is, arcane fusion applies the "adjusted spell level" (i.e. spell slot), not effective spell level.

[kernal42]

the house rules document is over 100 pages long as-is

Wait....what?

[Maginomicon]

Wait....what?Yeah, and it's online too in a Google Doc, so at any time anyone in the group can pull it up and search it (having an automatically-updating hyperlinked table of contents is niiiiiice).

[BWR]

That's easy to do. It's harder to cut it down to near zero.

[ArcturusV]

Only one I can think of that I've used quite a bit before (Or seen a lot of) is Metaphysical Spellshaper. 3 level PrC, the second level has an ability that says it reduces the Metamagic level adjustment by 1. Might want to change that so it only applies to when the Metaphysical Spellshaper uses their Stat Damage metamagics (take damage to a stat of your choice equal to the spells final level on spontaneously metamagiced spells).

[Raendyn]

Also force calculation per metamagic and NOT after the whole bunch.

So you avoid things like +0 meta & practical metamagic adding +3 meta & practical metamagic for a total of +1 with both.
"So now the spellslot is +1 as the PM states as minimum" and similar stuff.

[Barsoom]

Or you could just say "metamagic level reduction can't reduce the level modifier below +0".I actually like "metamagic level reduction can't reduce the level modifier below +1". [if it was +0 to begin with, it stays +0]

[Yora]

No house rule needed. The additional spell slot level cost can not be reduced below +0.

[ahenobarbi]

EDIT: Specifically in my house rules document, adding a blanket "no metamagic effect etc. etc." entry would be often overlooked (and thus useless) because the house rules document is over 100 pages long as-is (although it's text-searchable). For that reason, it's far more effective to include changes on a case-by-case basis.

I think the best solution would be to:

Add a blanket houserule "no metamagiceffect etc. etc."
Make houserule document reasonably short (100 pages seems way too much).

[Maginomicon]

I think the best solution would be to:

Add a blanket houserule "no metamagiceffect etc. etc."
Make houserule document reasonably short (100 pages seems way too much).
For context, here's the table of contents (it automatically updates)Foreword
GM-only

Unreasonable Consequences
XP Bonus Pool
Level-Independent Encounter Generation
Learning Opportunities for Spells and Powers
Party-Wide

Out-of-Game

Social Luck
In-Game

Banned Acts

Banned Items
Real Alignments

General Behavior
Prerequisites
Detection
Consequences

Codes of Conduct

Orthodox Codes of Conduct
Unorthodox Codes of Conduct
Half-Step Mechanical Effects
Alignment Summaries

Path of Integrity (Lawful Good)
Path of Mercy (Neutral Good)
Path of Liberty (Chaotic Good)
Path of Autonomy (Chaotic Neutral)
Path of Luxury (Chaotic Evil)
Path of Supremacy (Neutral Evil)
Path of Ascendency (Lawful Evil)
Path of Harmony (Lawful Neutral)
Path of Equity (True Neutral)
Action Economy
Line-of-Effect vs Line-of-Sight

Mirrors, Visual Rays, and Light
Clarifications on Free Actions
Clarifications on Condition Effects
Clarifications on Attacks of Opportunity
Clarifications on Light and Darkness

Celestial and Atmospheric Concealment
Clarifications on Flanking

Menacing
Clarifications on Area of Effect
Clarifications on Touch Spells

3e Contradiction Fix
Examples of Multi-Charge Spells
Clarifications on Incarnum and Spells

Different Bonus Types
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
Level-Independent XP Awards

Crafting Magic Items
XP Costs
Table: Experience Point Progression
Table: Experience Award (Single Monster)
Table: Magic Item XP Costs
Table: Spell XP Costs
No Massive Damage
Forbidden Action Point Uses
Pathfinder CMB/CMD for Combat Maneuvers
Good Hits and Bad Misses

High Critical Multipliers
General Rules
Fumbles and Attacks
Table: Critical Hit Effects
Table: Fumble Effects
Magic Item Chakra Binds
Rest Periods

Lack of Sleep
Additional Skill Uses

Combining Skill Attempts

Individual Attempts
Aid Another
Skill Synergy
Appraise
Balance
Bluff
Climb
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Diplomacy

Persuasion

Check

The Target
The Relationship
Risk vs. Reward Judgement
Success or Failure
Action
Try Again
Synergy
Disable Device
What Disabling a Trap Means
Disguise
Escape Artist
Forgery
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Tricks
Training-For-Purpose
Heal
Hide
Intimidate
Knowledge
Listen
Open Lock
Perform (Weapon Drill)
Profession
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Spot
Survival
Swim
Tumble
Use Magic Device
Use Rope
Character-Specific Fixes

Combat Overall

Unarmed Strike Proficiency
Weapon-like Spell/Power Sneak Attack Damage

Bleeding
Magic Overall

Caster Ability Score Use in Spell Descriptions
Spell Learning Limitations
Force Effects
Polymorph Subschool
Psionics Overall

Manifester Ability Score Use in Power Descriptions
Power Learning Limitations
0-Level Powers
Mantles

Imported Elemental Mantles

Air Mantle
Earth Mantle
Fire Mantle
Water Mantle
Approved Customized Mantles
Multiclass Psionics
Psychic Energy Centers

What Are Psychic Energy Centers?

The Function of Psychic Energy Centers
The Seven Psychic Energy Centers
Psionic Items

Psychic Meditation Items Associated Information
Powers As Spell-Like Abilities
Temporary Power Points
Races

Half-Humans and Humanlike Races
Lich
Synad
Classes

Dread Necromancer
Erudite
Generic Classes
Hexblade
Monk

Non-Standard Monk Prerequisites
Pugilist
Shadowcaster
Witch
Prestige Classes

Anima Mage
Metamind
Feats

Arcane Thesis
Carmendine Monk
Deceptive Spell
Draconic Breath
Elemental Envoy
Invisible Spell
Jack of All Trades
Kung-Fu Genius
Leadership
Linked Power
Linked Power Loops
Metamagic School Focus
Metanode Spell
Practiced Manifester
Practiced Spellcaster
Psicrystal Affinity
Psycarnum Crystal
Psycarnum Infusion
Reserves of Strength
Sanctum Spell
Shadow Weave Magic
Versatile Spellcaster
Wedded to History
Wild Talent
Spells

Arms of Plenty
Dweomer of Transference
Girallon’s Blessing
Mirror Image
Poison
Shield Other
Shivering Touch
Silence
Spectral Hand
Wings of Cover
Powers

Astral Construct
Detect Psionics
Alternate Class Features

Immediate Magic
Spontaneous Divine Casters

Table: Spontaneous Divine Casters Spells Known
Character Creation

Ability Score Rolls
HP Rolls
Alternatives for Alternate Class Features
Clarifications on Alternate Class Features
Clarifications on Prestige Classes and Multiclassing
Lenient Favored Classes
Learning Opportunities for Spells and Powers
Template Class Assumed Hit Dice
Updated Classes
Banned Classes
Banned Prestige Classes
Banned Spells
Banned Powers
Banned Feats
Banned Flaws
New Races
Imported Races

Further LA+0 Races
Updated Spells
Imported Spells

Anamensis
Cynosure
Spell Star
Imported Powers

Alarm, Psionic
Animal Messenger, Psionic
Animate Rope, Psionic
Call Armor
Call Item
Calm Animals, Psionic
Change Fate
Combat Transformation
Comprehend Languages, Psionic
Control Weather, Psionic
Detect Undead, Psionic
Discern Lies, Psionic
Ectoplasmic Repair
Endure Elements, Psionic
Erase, Psionic
Find Traps, Psionic
Floating Disk, Psionic
Force of Mind
Glibness, Psionic
Hardening, Psionic
Helping Hand, Psionic
Jump, Psionic
Make Whole, Psionic
Mind’s Eye
Pass Without Trace, Psionic
Prestidigitation, Psionic
Reach
Remove Fear, Psionic
Secret Page, Psionic
Secret Script
Secret Voice
Shrink Item, Psionic
Spirit Mark
Unseen Servant, Psionic
Zone of Silence, Psionic
Zone of Truth, Psionic
New Powers

Delay Poison, Psionic
Detect Secret Doors, Psionic
Detect Snares and Pits, Psionic
Dimensional Pocket
Dispel Psionics, Greater
Feather Weight
Microkinesis
New Feats

Mobile Manifesting
Imported Feats

Alternative Source Spell [Metamagic]
Bend Spell [Metamagic]
Cannibalize Spell [Psionic]
Cerebremetamagic [Metapsionic]
Chameleon Crafting [Item Creation]
Clawed Spell [Metamagic]
Deep Psychic Meditation [Psionic]
Fell Energy Spell [Metamagic]
Flowing Blade [General]
Focused Body [Psionic]
Forceful Spell [Metamagic]
Guided Spell [Metamagic]
Hypnotic Focus [General]
Kung Fu Genius [General]
Mystic Focus [Psionic]
Mystic Stability [Psionic]
Piercing Spell [Metamagic]
Powergrace [Psionic]
Psiomancer [Psionic]
Psionic Feint [Psionic]
Psionic Tumble [Psionic]
Psiotheurgist [Psionic]
Psychic Meditation [Psionic]

Psychic Meditation Bonuses
Psychic Sight [Psionic]
Radiant Spell [Metamagic]
Slimy Spell [Metamagic]
Song of the Dead [Metamagic]
Character Flaws
Character Traits
Reducing Level Adjustments

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments
Experience Point Cost
Suggested Fluff
So the fact that it's currently 112 pages long is justified.

[ahenobarbi]

So the fact that it's currently 112 pages long is justified.

Yeah, but it probably makes it highly impractical.... or so I thought before reading ToC. I think you really should have a part with general rules ("no wishing for more wishes", "no slot-level reducing metamagic", ...) and a part with specific replacements (for spells, powers and classes).

[Maginomicon]

Yeah, but it probably makes it highly impractical.... or so I thought before reading ToC. I think you really should have a part with general rules ("no wishing for more wishes", "no slot-level reducing metamagic", ...) and a part with specific replacements (for spells, powers and classes).Near the tip top of the document is a "Banned Acts" section that covers that distinction, so I don't need to separate the document into those categories.

[ahenobarbi]

Near the tip top of the document is a "Banned Acts" section that covers that distinction, so I don't need to separate the document into those categories.

Why not add "no metamagic reducing slot level" there?

[Maginomicon]

Why not add "no metamagic reducing slot level" there?Because ultimately, that kind of rule is the kind that's hard to adjudicate on the fly. Having each entry have its own tiny subsection-mention means they have no excuse not knowing that they can't do that with that particular feat. The way I have it, they have to look up every single thing they add to their character sheet to make sure I haven't nerfed its broken qualities out. You would be surprised what they'll pull claiming ignorance on the fly.

[ahenobarbi]

Because ultimately, that kind of rule is the kind that's hard to adjudicate on the fly. Having each entry have its own tiny subsection-mention means they have no excuse not knowing that they can't do that with that particular feat. The way I have it, they have to look up every single thing they add to their character sheet to make sure I haven't nerfed its broken qualities out. You would be surprised what they'll pull claiming ignorance on the fly.

Thanks for explaining, I'll cease derailing the thread now :smallredface:

here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0) is a handbook with big section on reducing Metamagic cost(I didn't spot anything new but you might want to doublecheck).

[lightningcat]

Specifically in my house rules document, adding a blanket "no metamagic effect etc. etc." entry would be often overlooked (and thus useless) because the house rules document is over 100 pages long as-is (although it's text-searchable). For that reason, it's far more effective to include changes on a case-by-case basis.

I think you have done the same thing that I've done. What started as house rules has turned into a new game.

If you have more than 3 class rebuilds then I'm certain for it.:smallamused: I have 7 in mine, plus prestige classes.

[Maginomicon]

I think you have done the same thing that I've done. What started as house rules has turned into a new game.

If you have more than 3 class rebuilds then I'm certain for it.:smallamused: I have 7 in mine, plus prestige classes.
I haven't rebuilt any classes in my house rules document, but I do have a separate campaign setting which includes among many other things a few class rebuilds (specifically the sorcerer and bard). It's very much a WIP, but if you want to see it, PM me.

[Chronos]

My personal rule is that you can't use any form of metamagic reducer unless you'd be able to cast a spell of the appropriate effective level without any metamagic reducers. So, for instance, you can use DMM to cast a Persisted Divine Favor from a first-level slot, but only once you gain the ability to cast 7th-level spells. And you can't DMM Persist a Divine Power until you're able to cast 10th-level spells, which isn't until epic (likewise, you also can't get a persisted Divine Power pre-epic in any other way, including Incantratrix, Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic Song, metamagic rods, etc.). It's a nice simple rule, but manages to eliminate most of the metamagic abuse in one swell foop.

[ericgrau]

You could find PDF versions of all books you own. Then search for "metamagic". Or any time a player takes a metamagic reducing trick, check it, then notify him before game if it's one you accidentally missed. Or here's a thread with many many ways to do it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189901 . So that should cover most of them and then there's a 1% chance you'll have the e-mail exchange with a player who finds another way.

I think it's a bit crazy to have 100 pages of house rules, but once you've gone off the deep end, eh, I'll hand over the answer, smile and nod.

[Alienist]

I treat the level reduction from Arcane Thesis like any other bonus - it doesn't stack with itself. Hence you can only get it once per spell no matter how many other metamagics you slap on it.

It works wonders, and it is, after all, what the rules say to do (even if cust serv (bizarrely) disagrees.