Desert farming

[Samalpetey]

In a desert setting with no create food and water style spells, how would you go about farming for food? I'm asking this because I plan on making a 3.5 sandstorm campaign. Water's already been sorted, but I can't think how food'd work

[Vaz]

HOw have you got water sorted, may i ask? The only real form of desert farming i can think of is reliant on rivers

[Samalpetey]

HOw have you got water sorted, may i ask? The only real form of desert farming i can think of is reliant on rivers

I'm having water being constantly transported from oases and rivers by constructs to towns

[ArcturusV]

The bigger problem is, presuming you're using deserts as one thinks of it, and not just badlands, scar lands, etc, is that the earth will lack nutrients needed to support plant life.

Sounds stupid, but you're gonna need lots and lots of dung. Lots. Every city in your desert that is growing food is gonna smell like a cesspool because that's what they'd need to do to fight the desertification and turn the place arable enough to actually grow crops.

[Berenger]

Farming in the small green strips along a river (Nile) or oasis. It's that or a nomad lifestyle without agriculture supported by trading with neighbors in more fertile lands. I don't think there is another feasible way for mundane D&D-level tech.

I think there are (have been?) projects in Israel to "make the desert Negev bloom", but I have little actual knowlegde of the procedures to do so and the topic is highly controversial (in other words, a political can of worms not to be opened in these boards).

[SiuiS]

Hunting too. Any animal that comes foraging for your precious crops gets killed (hopefully before it can do any damage!) gutted and stripped, you eat what you can and you grind the rest up for use as fertilizer.

Desert plants in sand tend to have broad, massive root structures I think. Perhaps subvert that? Whatever crop is bein grown in the desert, the city has dowsed it's way to being built over an underground river. The tubers and such grown extend their roots quickly and deeply downward, where they can siphon up the water. Perhaps there is a series of plants, the deep root ones which pull water up to the surface, and some parasitic vegetables that connect to the root structures of other plants and feed off their nutrients? Harvesting the vegetables keeps them from killing the water plants outright, and feeds you. And in order to get nutrients to the deep roots, you need it to land in the groundwater, so the city dumps all of its waste into a well or series of wells along one side of town, so the rot gets carried to the roots and absorbed?

[TuggyNE]

In a desert setting with no create food and water style spells, how would you go about farming for food? I'm asking this because I plan on making a 3.5 sandstorm campaign. Water's already been sorted, but I can't think how food'd work

You basically don't, because farming in a desert proper is essentially impossible without high technology or lots of magic. Deserts have ridiculously fragile ecosystems and are not very fertile even with water available.

[Komatik]

See a youtube video titled "Greening the Desert" to see what's possible in the salt deserts near the Dead Sea in Jordan ^^

The idea is water catchment, mulch
=> Living soil which stores moisture and nutrients like nitrogen from the air much better than desert (the assorted creepy crawlies, fungi and such are key)

=> Can plant trees which grant shade and again help keep moisture there. A forest also stabilizes the local climate nicely so it's not as swingy as a barren desert usually is. Vegetation => bacteria that the evaporated water condenses on and falls on the vegetation as rain. It's why rainforests are rainforests.

Traditional agriculture, especially with tilling, is poison. It slowly but surely kills the soil by breaking down roots and fungal networks (See Jordan, see Greece, Italy, American dustbowl, list goes on).

Agriculture's high calorie output combined facilitates population growth which, coupled with the systematic ecosystem destruction basically means desert and lots of hungry people. The logical result is a nation of conquerors. Not out of malice, but out of necessity.

[Amphetryon]

I'm having water being constantly transported from oases and rivers by constructs to towns

Have them transport loam as well, and construct some sort of partial-shade apparatus for the growing patches to avoid the greatest intensity of the sun(s) of your world. Restrict things harvested to those which could reasonably stand the heat at least a little. Apply handwavium as needed.

[Ignominia]

Would Mushroom farming inside nearby caves be an option? And if so, possibly hunting the naturally occurring wild life that feeds on said mushrooms? Just because you are in a desert doesn't mean you cant be connected to the Underdark... and there is all SORTS of stuff down there to eat!

[TheStranger]

I'm having water being constantly transported from oases and rivers by constructs to towns

At the risk of asking a stupid question, is there any particular reason they didn't just build the towns at the oases and rivers? If you're willing to handwave building a town in a desert with no water source nearby, agriculture seems like a much lesser handwave.

[Komatik]

At the risk of asking a stupid question, is there any particular reason they didn't just build the towns at the oases and rivers? If you're willing to handwave building a town in a desert with no water source nearby, agriculture seems like a much lesser handwave.

The existence of a city presupposes agriculture, sorcery or a miracle from above or below.

[ahenobarbi]

Portal to semi-elemental plane of whooper?

More seriously. Ask your self what people and how many people do you want on your desert. Small groups of humanoids that "just live" there most likely move around between places that can provide some sustenance. Cities generally would have some reason for existence (rare natural resources, trade routes) and it would provide income so they can import what they need (most likely salted or dried to preserve).

[Amphetryon]

The existence of a city presupposes agriculture, sorcery or a miracle from above or below.

It could also presuppose the location of a particular valuable resource, provided that food and water can be obtained at the city without undue hardship. This, in turn, depends on how loosely one defines "city."

[Starbuck_II]

Have you considered domesticating giant sand worms to keep land fertile? Currently Earth worms do the same to a lesser degree in real life (but small areas as they are small)

[Uncle Pine]

Follow Bear Grylls' suggestions.

[TheStranger]

It could also presuppose the location of a particular valuable resource, provided that food and water can be obtained at the city without undue hardship. This, in turn, depends on how loosely one defines "city."

True, that would be a good reason to build a settlement in an otherwise inhospitable area. Anyway, if you can import water, you can probably import food, too. Hauling water any distance is usually prohibitively inefficient or expensive. In a desert, figure one gallon per person per day just for drinking, plus some amount for cooking, washing, etc. Let's be conservative and say washing isn't a priority, so maybe just another half gallon per person per day? Anyway, for 1000 people, that's 1500 gallons, or 6 tons of water every day. And that doesn't even include water for livestock, agriculture, or the arrogant nobleman who demands a fountain in the middle of the desert. If hauling that much water around isn't a problem, transporting a much lesser amount of food probably isn't either.

[Samalpetey]

At the risk of asking a stupid question, is there any particular reason they didn't just build the towns at the oases and rivers? If you're willing to handwave building a town in a desert with no water source nearby, agriculture seems like a much lesser handwave.

I didn't immediately think of that, I just really liked my construct idea (Adapted versions of siege crabs), and got fixated on that

[Samalpetey]

True, that would be a good reason to build a settlement in an otherwise inhospitable area. Anyway, if you can import water, you can probably import food, too. Hauling water any distance is usually prohibitively inefficient or expensive. In a desert, figure one gallon per person per day just for drinking, plus some amount for cooking, washing, etc. Let's be conservative and say washing isn't a priority, so maybe just another half gallon per person per day? Anyway, for 1000 people, that's 1500 gallons, or 6 tons of water every day. And that doesn't even include water for livestock, agriculture, or the arrogant nobleman who demands a fountain in the middle of the desert. If hauling that much water around isn't a problem, transporting a much lesser amount of food probably isn't either.

Going by google and the stats given for a siege crab (10 ft by 10 ft by 10 ft storage space), I got 6228 gallons carried per crab per trip

[Threadnaught]

Water's already been sorted, but I can't think how food'd work


I'm having water being constantly transported from oases and rivers by constructs to towns

Why on earth would you build a settlement so far away from such needed resources? Especially if it's impossible to magically create.


Though whoever controls the desert's water supplies, is the most powerful creature in the desert. The existence of these water gathering constructs gives you the opportunity to allow players and/or villains to attack the water supply of their enemies. The ability to divert rivers, or even block their source from underground are effective means to taking control.

A few full flasks of water in this setting, could be valuable enough to buy almost anything. Depending on how supplies are currently affected in a specific area.
Some NPCs could stockpile water while it's still coming in at a steady rate. Others would pay extortionate sums to buy excess water.


Okay, maybe building settlements away from water wasn't such a bad idea after all.

[TheStranger]

Going by google and the stats given for a siege crab (10 ft by 10 ft by 10 ft storage space), I got 6228 gallons carried per crab per trip

Sure, but you've got to account for the weight, too. That's ~25 tons of water. What's the carrying capacity of a siege crab? Anyway, I think we can agree that moving that amount of water isn't an insurmountable task if you have sufficient technology or magic. My point was, if moving 25 tons of water isn't a problem, moving a few tons of grain on top of that probably isn't either. Alternately, along the lines of my original post, your irrigation system is giant, hollowed-out crab-things, and you're concerned about the verisimilitude of soil nutrients? If my suspension of disbelief can handle the siege crabs, I can accept that the soil's fine once you dump the water on it.

Also, who's providing the siege crabs and why? I assume they've been there since the town was founded, since the town couldn't exist without them. And what if they're attacked? If the town's surrounded, or thri-kreen raiders attack the siege crabs, the entire town dies in about three days (more if they have big cisterns, but it's still a vulnerability). And if the area's secure enough that you're not worried about that, just do your farming over by the river and haul the food to town. Which brings us back to asking why the town isn't at the river in the first place. Which isn't to say there aren't valid reason that it wouldn't be, but it's something to think about.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but the idea of a town with no ready water supply jumped out at me as a more pressing question than how farming would work.

[Spuddles]

If you're using constructs to carry water, you may as well use the constructs to irrigate.

Heck, an undead or warforged bard strumming a lyre of building could irrigate the Sahara in under a year. Well maybe not. I'd have to do the math. But it would be a lot of irrigation. Each hour of strumming the loot produces 4800 man hours of labor.

The biggest problem with long term irrigation of deserts is the creation of saltpan. The Nile used to flood every year, and in doing so, would deposit fresh nutrients on the banks and flush out salts.

In ancient Sumer, elaborate irrigation systems made the desert bloom. Unfortunately, evaporation of mineral laden water led to a build up of ecosystem collapsing salts. Iraq's been a desert ever since.

California is currently having the same problem. Entire rivers are diverted into desert regions. Water goes in, but doesn't flow out, gradually leading to salt accumulation.

[CaladanMoonblad]

So... giant siege crabs (MMIII), which live in warm aqautic terrains... are turned into automatons... vs. an Everful Basin or Decanters of Endless water...

Is Divine magic just entirely not allowed in this setting?

Because usually people choose the cheapest method possible.

I would ditch the water bearing crabs, and make them food bearing. Rome for instance, was unable to feed itself and imported huge barges of grain from Egypt during the reigns of Julius and Octavian Caeser (the whole reason Marc Antony hooked up with Cleopatra because he wanted to control Rome's food source).

Your desert culture is either going to be big and martial relying on conquered lands to feed their capital, or your desert culture is going to be small, nomadic tribes involved in gang fighting for control of the local oases. But since this is DnD, with an Underdark, I'd suggest an underground trading partner.

[Tvtyrant]

It would take 17 Decanters of Endless Water on maximum setting to match the river that goes by my house. It would take 34 trips a day for your crabs to accomplish the same thing. Assuming you can get good soil that isn't too bad, except that the crabs cost a lot more than the decanters do a piece.

[Samalpetey]

It would take 17 Decanters of Endless Water on maximum setting to match the river that goes by my house. It would take 34 trips a day for your crabs to accomplish the same thing. Assuming you can get good soil that isn't too bad, except that the crabs cost a lot more than the decanters do a piece.

Touche, I just prefer the concept of giant crabs carrying water across the dessert as opposed to a few magic flasks producing infinite water. I didn't really consider how little sense it all made though, and I think I might just change the cities to be built near water and have a raiding group of some sort use the crabs, since my players and I think they're awesome. Also, on the subject of cost, I'm having the crabs be on the order of some long lost technology, so cost isn't much of a problem.

[Tvtyrant]

Touche, I just prefer the concept of giant crabs carrying water across the dessert as opposed to a few magic flasks producing infinite water. I didn't really consider how little sense it all made though, and I think I might just change the cities to be built near water and have a raiding group of some sort use the crabs, since my players and I think they're awesome

Or you could have the crabs defend the desert city, and have the city be deep in the desert and run on flasks. The reason for having the city in the desert is pretty sound; you want to keep it isolated and therefore safe. Armies don't like crossing deserts very much, and if you are deep enough in you are more isolated than on an island.

[Spuddles]

You could also put the town at a desert spring. An oasis.

Of course, the oasis is connected to the underdark, and siege crabs full of derro, sent by aboleths, come scuttling out. Or something like that.

[Berenger]

Oh... or just make the majority of those desert dwellers intelligent undead ruling over mindless undead and a small number of mortal slaves. They went there on purpose because water sources are easy to control or because water is too scarce to support, say, crusading armies led by paladins over the time of an extended siege.

[TheStranger]

Touche, I just prefer the concept of giant crabs carrying water across the dessert as opposed to a few magic flasks producing infinite water. I didn't really consider how little sense it all made though, and I think I might just change the cities to be built near water and have a raiding group of some sort use the crabs, since my players and I think they're awesome. Also, on the subject of cost, I'm having the crabs be on the order of some long lost technology, so cost isn't much of a problem.

Siege crabs would work great for nomads or caravans. They can travel long distances across the desert, and can carry plenty of food, water, trade goods, etc. to make a trip of almost any length trivial. They can also carry the very young, very old, or infirm. They beat wagons hands-down because they can cover rough terrain and you don't need to feed draft animals. And unlike camels, they aren't pure evil.

[Samalpetey]

Siege crabs would work great for nomads or caravans. They can travel long distances across the desert, and can carry plenty of food, water, trade goods, etc. to make a trip of almost any length trivial. They can also carry the very young, very old, or infirm. They beat wagons hands-down because they can cover rough terrain and you don't need to feed draft animals. And unlike camels, they aren't pure evil.

I like what you did there :biggrin:

[zorenathres]

not yet mentioned here, but as I was reading this thread I was reminded of Frank Herbert's Dune, where the Fremen had countless vast underground reservoirs. If there are cities, they could build tunnels & reservoir systems across the desert, with protected access points leading to the desert above. While you maintain the desert world setting, you can still get what you are looking for, & keep it a little further out of view of the players (& who doesn't like a mystery?, just where does that BBEG/ King/ Dictator get all that food & water?)

[Gildedragon]

I'll second the building of a city near water. Need not be an oasis, but maybe a planar breach to the elemental plane of water, to a non salinated portion of it. Or a manifest zone for the plane of water (create water works remarkably well in the area, a single casting makes water well up for an hour or somesuch).

Individual palaces far from water might be viable. Nobles that refuse to live near the cities; taking pride in the desert itself as a source of status or socially-valuable-characteristics.

A city far from water might be the result of a very valuable resource being found, or a defense project of a megalomaniac. The latter: instead of constructs use aqueducts. It's cheaper and faster in the long run. You could power them by having a single construct pump the water to them.
With the former, you can expect a haphazard gold-rush-esque encampment city; construct bucket chain is reasonable. But so is a diversion of food caravans to the area.

[Samalpetey]

Alright, I've decided to change most of the towns to being near water. Any ideas on what sort of valuable materials/objects would encourage people to live away from the towns?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alright, I've decided to change most of the towns to being near water. Any ideas on what sort of valuable materials/objects would encourage people to live away from the towns?

The typical precious and semi-precious gems and metals; exotic plants and animals that can only be found in the desert for meat, spices, and byproducts; and though it's not technically a trade-good, land located on or near a high-traffic trade route or intersection of moderate traffic trade-routes.

[Frosty]

I think the answer is obvious. In a desert, farmers farm moisture :smallbiggrin:

[RFLS]

I think the answer is obvious. In a desert, farmers farm moisture :smallbiggrin:

I hear blue milk is delicious.

[Spuddles]

Alright, I've decided to change most of the towns to being near water. Any ideas on what sort of valuable materials/objects would encourage people to live away from the towns?

Salt.



fdghogfdsjnodadhaf

[JaronK]

Note that even without Create Food and Drink or similar, you can use Stone Metamorphosis to turn any existing stone into Rock Gourds. Rock Gourds are linked with the Plane of Water and leak one gallon of water per 10 lbs of the stone. If you don't nerf that, I'd imagine you'd see statues of mighty kings made out of Rock Gourds and used to provide an artificial oasis.

JaronK

[SiuiS]

It could also presuppose the location of a particular valuable resource, provided that food and water can be obtained at the city without undue hardship. This, in turn, depends on how loosely one defines "city."

City, as by the system, is what? 50,000 people? You'd have a village for this sort of thing. Maybe a town.


Note that even without Create Food and Drink or similar, you can use Stone Metamorphosis to turn any existing stone into Rock Gourds. Rock Gourds are linked with the Plane of Water and leak one gallon of water per 10 lbs of the stone. If you don't nerf that, I'd imagine you'd see statues of mighty kings made out of Rock Gourds and used to provide an artificial oasis.

Where's that from?

[Karoht]

Mushrooms and used Coffee Grounds
Seriously, you don't need anything other than a small amount of water each day. Like a spritz and you're good. Soil not required at all. Look it up, it's totally legit. They even sell portable sized kits.

Compost turns into perfectly useable soil in about 6 months, especially with heat from the sun, but will require additional moisture and a covered area.

Put both together, you can grow mushrooms AND create useable soil. With all the biological waste from a city (people waste and animal waste as well), and depending on the growth rate of the mushrooms, you could probably create enough soil for a decent plot of land in under a decade. Maybe as little as 3 years, with no magical support. With magic helping it along, even just a little bit, two years, easy. But the coordination of biological waste would be challenging, depending on the existing sewer system of the settlement.

[Spuddles]

Note that even without Create Food and Drink or similar, you can use Stone Metamorphosis to turn any existing stone into Rock Gourds. Rock Gourds are linked with the Plane of Water and leak one gallon of water per 10 lbs of the stone. If you don't nerf that, I'd imagine you'd see statues of mighty kings made out of Rock Gourds and used to provide an artificial oasis.

JaronK

Could you sauce me on that? Looks interesting.

[Abemad]

I think its from Underdark, a Forgotten Realms book

With a proper desalination plant the city could export salt and base its food production on hydroponics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics)?

[Kelb_Panthera]

City, as by the system, is what? 50,000 people? You'd have a village for this sort of thing. Maybe a town.



Where's that from?
Actually, the DMG calls anything bigger than 5000 people a city. 50000 is double the lower limit for a metropolis.

The spell is from underdark according to a quick googling.

Mushrooms and used Coffee Grounds
Seriously, you don't need anything other than a small amount of water each day. Like a spritz and you're good. Soil not required at all. Look it up, it's totally legit. They even sell portable sized kits.

Compost turns into perfectly useable soil in about 6 months, especially with heat from the sun, but will require additional moisture and a covered area.

Put both together, you can grow mushrooms AND create useable soil. With all the biological waste from a city (people waste and animal waste as well), and depending on the growth rate of the mushrooms, you could probably create enough soil for a decent plot of land in under a decade. Maybe as little as 3 years, with no magical support. With magic helping it along, even just a little bit, two years, easy. But the coordination of biological waste would be challenging, depending on the existing sewer system of the settlement.

Not counting a few select cities from antiquity, sewers as we know them are a fairly new concept. They'd also be largely impossible in a sandy desert; the type of desert most people mean when they don't qualify the word.

Much more importantly, in a number of ancient civilizations the collecting of communal "waste" for fertilizer was either an affair handled by the community as a whole or was a job handled by a certain group or class of people.

It's disgusting but well-established practice that a bit of research can get you details on.

Some eco-nuts in private communities here in the US are even reviving the practice within those communities.

[Coidzor]

not yet mentioned here, but as I was reading this thread I was reminded of Frank Herbert's Dune, where the Fremen had countless vast underground reservoirs. If there are cities, they could build tunnels & reservoir systems across the desert, with protected access points leading to the desert above. While you maintain the desert world setting, you can still get what you are looking for, & keep it a little further out of view of the players (& who doesn't like a mystery?, just where does that BBEG/ King/ Dictator get all that food & water?)

Problem being, the more people you involve in something, the easier it is to find out that it's happening even if you can't get all the details.


Note that even without Create Food and Drink or similar, you can use Stone Metamorphosis to turn any existing stone into Rock Gourds. Rock Gourds are linked with the Plane of Water and leak one gallon of water per 10 lbs of the stone. If you don't nerf that, I'd imagine you'd see statues of mighty kings made out of Rock Gourds and used to provide an artificial oasis.

JaronK

Are Rock Gourds in the same book(Underdark) as Stone Metamorphosis?


I think its from Underdark, a Forgotten Realms book

With a proper desalination plant the city could export salt and base its food production on hydroponics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics)?

Stone Metamorphosis is in Underdark, at least.

Heh. Desert city on the shore of a salty, salty sea?

[TripleD]

Does the town have to be human? There are plenty of races in Sandstorm or the Monster manual that are better adapted to life in the desert than humans.

Or if you want to get crazy: how about a town where humans and mummies live side by side? Mummies are lawful more than evil, and have no desire for flesh, blood, etc. Only to guard and protect what they were charged with protecting. Mummy cleric and rangers could take care of food and water for the relatively small living population ( who may or may not be allowed to leave by their "guardians").

[koboldish]

On the subject of non-humans, elans are completely non-magical and can spend their natural power points to require no food or drink.

[Spuddles]

On the subject of non-humans, elans are completely non-magical and can spend their natural power points to require no food or drink.

Psionics is just magic with a different window dressing.

[Tuki Tuki]

Throw some oasis's in there and make some npc's that can give player characters food and water.
Also you can homebrew plants that are like cactus's where if someone drinks from them they aren't thirsty anymore but they have to make a con check to not go crazy for a bit :smalltongue:

[Unusual Muse]

not yet mentioned here, but as I was reading this thread I was reminded of Frank Herbert's Dune, where the Fremen had countless vast underground reservoirs.

The Dune books (especially the first three) go into a lot of detail about the ecology, sociology, and politics of life in a desert ecosystem, as well as the principles involved in "greening" it. Herbert really did his research! It's a lot of reading just to help flesh out a campaign, but highly worthwhile in its own right.

[TuggyNE]

On the subject of non-humans, elans are completely non-magical and can spend their natural power points to require no food or drink.

Repletion is Su. Not very non-magical.

[Spuddles]

The Dune books (especially the first three) go into a lot of detail about the ecology, sociology, and politics of life in a desert ecosystem, as well as the principles involved in "greening" it. Herbert really did his research! It's a lot of reading just to help flesh out a campaign, but highly worthwhile in its own right.

Herbert came up with the idea of the book when writing about the ecology of desertification in Californian sand dunes.

[JaronK]

Where's that from?

Underdark Handbook, which has both the spell and the rock gourd thing.

JaronK

[Mutazoia]

Alright, I've decided to change most of the towns to being near water. Any ideas on what sort of valuable materials/objects would encourage people to live away from the towns?

Not much. Bedouins live out side of towns but they move around constantly and trade for food/supplies. There wouldn't be much out in the desert unless you made something up, or imported Spice from Dune or had a series of great pyramids that people excavate/rob and sell their findings back in the cities. Then you could have a few cults living in some pyramids worshiping ancient mummies...some just raisins, some actually powerful undead ancient kings...

For references on Desert campaigns I recomend checking out

The Al Qadim 3.5 setting (http://www.al-qadim.com/)
The Desert of Desolation (http://kestrelarts.com/text/Pharaoh.pdf) 2e adventure

[Rhynn]

I'm having water being constantly transported from oases and rivers by constructs to towns

Why would they build their towns away from the rivers and oases?

Anywhere, towns will only be found by a steady supply of water; usually a river, but a lot of wells (i.e. over an aquifer) works too. This is doubly true of deserts. The area around the river is going to be more fertile - deserts aren't all sand dunes, after all. Towns aren't just built on a whim in a place, they're born at the "nexus" of farming communities, when one market village grows and grows (although they often form around a castle or keep built to control the region, since it offers natural safety). As the town gets bigger, walls are built around it, often several times.

[BowStreetRunner]

Alright, I've decided to change most of the towns to being near water. Any ideas on what sort of valuable materials/objects would encourage people to live away from the towns?

Spice!

Seriously, it's a fantasy setting. So create a fantastic resource that the people are focused around. The book Sandstorm lists a bunch of supernatural types of sand - any of these could exist as a commodity that someone in the world is willing to trade for, even if just as a component for spellcasting.

[Rhynn]

Generally, resources don't create towns, they create villages (except in the Wild West, where circumstances were pretty specific; in a pseudo-medieval setting, someone almost certainly owns the land the resources are found on - the king, if no one else); farming and markets create towns. Resources probably wouldn't create settlements much bigger than the work crew needs (plus some guards, maybe), maybe their families, in an area where water is not available. You've got all the usual resources: metal is a big one, no doubt. Salt was mentioned.

[Gildedragon]

Black sand: used for glass-wares that are always cold and prevent rot

gold, silver, mithril, adamantium, cyrite, other magical metals or deep crystal

diamond dust is part of the components of certain sandstone structure. It is THE source of resurrection components.

psychoactive subsurface fungi that bloom only once a year. Too much moisture kills them, and thus they survive only in the driest of unirrigated desert lands.

[ArcturusV]

Well, there's the other way a town springs up as well. Not because it's fertile, or because there's gold in them thar heeels, but because it was a military outpost. If there's some reason why a Fort needs to be somewhere, a town is likely to spring up there at some point.

And a few people will probably try to farm because almost anywhere has farmers. And there's gonna be people that figure if they can just make the desert bloom SOMEHOW, and be... the only guy in 500 miles who grows fresh fruit? They'll make a mint.

[Rhynn]

Well, like I said, a fortification (a castle or keep) is a natural centerpiece for a settlement (in part because they were frequently at the heart of a fief), but those already need water. Water isn't going to mean it's exceptionally fertile, but it is going to be more so than trackless sand waste.

[Coidzor]

My understanding is that it's rather difficult to build on sand dunes anyway.

[Gildedragon]

It is, but one could clear down to the rock. Problem is the movement of the sand possibly burying it.
it would likely be built on the rocky edges of the sand basin,

[Rhynn]

Yeah, I'm trying to find an example of how you'd build your castle/keep on a rocky outcrop (you want to build them on those anyway!), but all the crusader castles in Outremer I can find have decidedly green surroundings... :smallamused:

I guess Kerak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerak) is more brown and olive - that still looks like fairly dry ground.

Anyway, lots of castles in the "desert" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Crusader_castles) (desert isn't all sand dunes, and not all of what we think is desert is actually desert).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Generally, resources don't create towns, they create villages (except in the Wild West, where circumstances were pretty specific; in a pseudo-medieval setting, someone almost certainly owns the land the resources are found on - the king, if no one else); farming and markets create towns. Resources probably wouldn't create settlements much bigger than the work crew needs (plus some guards, maybe), maybe their families, in an area where water is not available. You've got all the usual resources: metal is a big one, no doubt. Salt was mentioned.
This actually depends on the overall quantity of the resource in question. If you stumble across a massive lode of precious metal or gems that will take decades to excavate, when digging under an rocky outcropping near a river or large oasis, a fairly large settlement could build up around it before it hit peak production and started to experience a population collapse.

This does bring up an important point, though. If the resource the settlement is built around is finite, you need to decide if the settlement is still in its growth period, near peak production, or in decline.

As a large mining operation approaches the point of non-viability (most of the resource has been removed) the settlement that sprang up around it can rapidly become a collection of mostly empty buildings. This is great for amping up the creepy if you're into that sort of thing.

My understanding is that it's rather difficult to build on sand dunes anyway.

It very much is. You have to build either very light structures from mud and oasis plants drawn from a nearby body of water or you have to accept that your foundation is going to sink into the sands until it hits bedrock. Whether the latter is even an option is determined by finding the depth of the bedrock under the area you intend to build and hoping that it's relatively even.

In any case, if you're building in an area where the dunes are fairly large, anything higher than about knee-high between peaks and valleys of the dunes, you'll also have to build wind-breaks around the structure to keep out the sand most of the time and realize that a wind storm can outright bury the structure if it's not particularly large.

Frankly, the resources near the build site have to be fairly valuable to put up with having to build on mostly loose sand.

[Gildedragon]

Yeah, I'm trying to find an example of how you'd build your castle/keep on a rocky outcrop (you want to build them on those anyway!), but all the crusader castles in Outremer I can find have decidedly green surroundings... :smallamused:

I guess Kerak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerak) is more brown and olive - that still looks like fairly dry ground.

Anyway, lots of castles in the "desert" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Crusader_castles) (desert isn't all sand dunes, and not all of what we think is desert is actually desert).

Doing a search for umayyad castle shows castles in a pretty "typical" desert environment. rocky with traces of sand. In fact a problem for the investigation of these castles is that they get swallowed by the sand.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I'd figure the real reason you wouldn't build a castle (Or any fortifications really) on Dunes isn't that it's hard to do. Sure, it is... but you build Castles due to controlling important terrain. So you don't build a castle in the middle of a vast, featureles plain. Unless that spot is something like the point here 5 different cross country trade routes all meet. (In which case you probably sprung up as a Trading Post, rather than a Military Outpost originally). But you'd build a fort near something like the only natural harbor on the coastline. Or on a pass through the mountains, etc. Or near the only oasis for 250 miles. The location of Forts is all about protecting resources, or cutting off avenues a force might use to get at your resources (Thus why places like Wake Island are military bases).

[Rhynn]

Yup. Fortifications are for defense and control: you force any invading army to stop and besiege you, or at least leave a considerable part of its force to invest the fortification while the rest move on, or you'll be attacking their rear and their supply route as they move. Anywhere that's on a major route will work, generally; this may actually give a subtler reason you wouldn't bother in the desert, if there are no set routes through the dunes, it's futile to try to control all the possible ones.

[nedz]

Obviously you need water.

There are several real world solutions.

Pumping water out of an underground aquifer. This is a fairly modern development.

Taking water from rivers and using canals. Check out the qanat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat) system used in Iran and Western China — this uses underground canals (to reduce evaporation) to bring water from the mountain aquifers to the desert.

[zorenathres]

Problem being, the more people you involve in something, the easier it is to find out that it's happening even if you can't get all the details.

well, the BBEG may be using constructs, undead, or other mindless labor to do dig the tunnels, or he may just be paranoid & kill his slave workers once they have completed the job, including the architect to keep the knowledge a secret...