Help me Plan my 3.5 Melee Cleric

[Kioras]

I am currently playing in 3.5 campaign, and I currently have a level 2 cleric, and I plan on going down the melee/ordained champion line.

I made a optimal feat choices at level 1, before I started reading things, and my DM does not allow retraining. The given stats are a bit excessive, but i'll take them. (18,17,16,15,14,12)

Note, my character is currently level 2, so not really able to change any choices already made.

str : 17
dex : 12
con : 14
int : 16
wis : 18
cha : 15
male human
diety : heironeous
alignment : lawful Good
feats :
extend spell metamagic
Scribe Scroll


My current plan is like this.

1-3 Cleric (good and war) lv 3 feat : Craft wonderous Item(to feed party magic toys)
4 Church Inquisitor, trade inquisition domain for knowledge devoition(get knowledge nature)
5-9 ordained Champion : get law domain, trade for law devotion, trade good domain power for power attack.
Feat level 6 : extended turning,
feat level 9 : holy warrior
10-19 : Knight of the Raven, not sure on feats
20 : some unknown class

The DM will possible allow us to pick up feats and some skills over time with good rp/in game reasons. I am not sure about the leveld past 10. I am not able to get Radiant servant of Pelar for fit/diety reasons, and the DM is not allowing Prestige Paladin class.

The DM has stated the game will go to Epic levels, so I want to make sure I only give up 3 caster levels max. I want to use DMM persist as some point, however not sure how I can properly fuel it.

Edit 6-19-13, added note

[Malvanis]

If your DM allows Farun gods, be a dwarven cleric of Dumathoin and pick then the Metal domain. It grants free weapon profeicency with any martial or exotic hammer. That helps to offset the clerics poor weapon choices.

[Starmage21]

I am currently playing in 3.5 campaign, and I currently have a level 2 cleric, and I plan on going down the melee/ordained champion line.

I made a optimal feat choices at level 1, before I started reading things, and my DM does not allow retraining. The given stats are a bit excessive, but i'll take them. (18,17,16,15,14,12)

str : 17
dex : 12
con : 14
int : 16
wis : 18
cha : 15
male human
diety : heironeous
alignment : lawful Good
feats :
extend spell metamagic
Scribe Scroll


My current plan is like this.

1-3 Cleric (good and war) lv 3 feat : Craft wonderous Item(to feed party magic toys)
4 Church Inquisitor, trade inquisition domain for knowledge devoition(get knowledge nature)
5-9 ordained Champion : get law domain, trade for law devotion, trade good domain power for power attack.
Feat level 6 : extended turning,
feat level 9 : holy warrior
10-19 : Knight of the Raven, not sure on feats
20 : some unknown class

The DM will possible allow us to pick up feats and some skills over time with good rp/in game reasons. I am not sure about the leveld past 10. I am not able to get Radiant servant of Pelar for fit/diety reasons, and the DM is not allowing Prestige Paladin class.

The DM has stated the game will go to Epic levels, so I want to make sure I only give up 3 caster levels max. I want to use DMM persist as some point, however not sure how I can properly fuel it.

You cant really go wrong with Cleric 15/Ordained Champion 5.

You'll have the war domain, or at least you better, because the class lets you cast War spells as quickened actions, and one of the spells that is part of the Divine Trio are in the War domain. That means it never takes you more than 2 rounds to buff for combat time (Standard Righteous Might, Swift Divine Power, Move + Standard Divine Favor + Move + Another War spell!).

*edit*
Attribute-wise I'd roll 16STR, 12Dex, 17 CON, 14 Int, 18Wis, 15CHA, and take your first +1 and stick it in CON. You are a front-line fighter, act like it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read these?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1329
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4622
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10556

[Kioras]

Have you read these?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1329
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4622
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10556

Yes, before I started trying to plan long term, but of course after I actually locked in my stats/starting race/class/diety, I reviewed what handbooks and other information that I could.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, before I started trying to plan long term, but of course after I actually locked in my stats/starting race/class/diety, I reviewed what handbooks and other information that I could.

Why don't you talk to your GM? Just say, "Hey, I think I messed up, can I change things?"

[Gwendol]

You'll be fine: it's really hard to mess up a cleric, especially with those stats. I'd try to fit in cleave along the way, since you'll be up close and personal a lot. Your spells are your main asset anyway. Ice axe is really good for a melee cleric, strikes against touch AC, which for you means max PA.

[Mountain]

If getting 9th level spells is not as important to you as bashing things in melee, a level or two of crusader (or the martial study feat) could get you a handful of Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and still fit flavor-wise.

[DMVerdandi]

Two feats you may want to pick up are power attack, and intuitive attack.
It will boost your damage by quite a bit.

as far as cool spells, think about Ice Axe for melee.
There are tons more of course. Just look through them from book to book.

[Kioras]

You'll be fine: it's really hard to mess up a cleric, especially with those stats. I'd try to fit in cleave along the way, since you'll be up close and personal a lot. Your spells are your main asset anyway. Ice axe is really good for a melee cleric, strikes against touch AC, which for you means max PA.

I see the potency for Ice Axe, and power attack, not to mention if i blow someone up with it, getting a second attack would be good with cleave.


Why don't you talk to your GM? Just say, "Hey, I think I messed up, can I change things?"

Talked to my DM, he believes that mistakes are a learning experience :D. Not to mention since hw will feel quite fine handing out bonus stuff, like feats or such, he does not see the point in bothering to retrain/change things.


If getting 9th level spells is not as important to you as bashing things in melee, a level or two of crusader (or the martial study feat) could get you a handful of Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and still fit flavor-wise.

It is less of an issue now, since he stated that he will allow caster class spell progression in the epic levels, until caster class equivelant of level 20(full spell books).

So now I am less worried about giving up a few more spell levels.

[Mountain]

There's also a feat: Holy Warrior, that anyone with the war domain should pick up, if they have room. Holy Warrior is a reserve feat from Complete Champion that adds a bonus to weapon damage as long as you have a War spell of 4th level or higher available to cast.

Edit: I second the motion for Intuitive Attack (BoED), but be aware that it is limited to simple or natural weapons. If you're intent on a martial or exotic weapon, it's useless to you.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to use simple weapons, some of the best simple weapons are:

Heavy Sickle
Morningstar
Gauntlet
Longspear
Fauchard

Remember, that you can make weapons entirely out of, say, Bronzewood, and you can then cast spikes or brambles on them...

[Kioras]

There's also a feat: Holy Warrior, that anyone with the war domain should pick up, if they have room. Holy Warrior is a reserve feat from Complete Champion that adds a bonus to weapon damage as long as you have a War spell of 4th level or higher available to cast.

Edit: I second the motion for Intuitive Attack (BoED), but be aware that it is limited to simple or natural weapons. If you're intent on a martial or exotic weapon, it's useless to you.

I fully plan on grabbing Holy Warrior at level 9, to take advantage of always having a level 4 or higher war spell in memory.

I don't see the advantage of intuitive attack, as the attack gain for the feat is rather small, on a base 17st vs a 18wis, or even if wis gets a few points higher.

I have a question on crusader, it sounds like an interesting class to dip, but is it worth the dip if Ruby Knight Vindicator is not available? I don't have to worry about max spell levels, as they will come around eventually.

[Mountain]

I have a question on crusader, it sounds like an interesting class to dip, but is it worth the dip if Ruby Knight Vindicator is not available? I don't have to worry about max spell levels, as they will come around eventually.

We all know how incredibly powerful RKV is, but even without it, a single level of crusader gets +1 bab and a stance, plus some other good stuff.

[herrhauptmann]

I don't see the advantage of intuitive attack, as the attack gain for the feat is rather small, on a base 17st vs a 18wis, or even if wis gets a few points higher.

I have a question on crusader, it sounds like an interesting class to dip, but is it worth the dip if Ruby Knight Vindicator is not available? I don't have to worry about max spell levels, as they will come around eventually.
1)Probably not necessary, not with your stats. But a good thing to keep in mind for future clerics.

2)I'd say it'd be less awesome without RKV, but still worthwhile. Don't forget how your non-ToB classes still advance IL.... cleric4/Crusader1 gets to pick from 2nd level maneuvers and stances like all the third level crusaders.

Regarding weapons, I'd suggest looking at the Executioners Mace if you go Crusader and get the 'all martial weapons.' It's in dungeon magazine somewhere. 2d6 damage. x3 crit on a 20. BP or BS.

[Kioras]

2)I'd say it'd be less awesome without RKV, but still worthwhile. Don't forget how your non-ToB classes still advance IL.... cleric4/Crusader1 gets to pick from 2nd level maneuvers and stances like all the third level crusaders.

Regarding weapons, I'd suggest looking at the Executioners Mace if you go Crusader and get the 'all martial weapons.' It's in dungeon magazine somewhere. 2d6 damage. x3 crit on a 20. BP or BS.

Looked over crusader, seems to be a class that really gets more awesome at higher levels, or if you are with a lot of melee's.

My game group is a War Mage, a Ninja, a Fighter and a Favored Soul/Sorcerer build.

I was looking over various other classes, and the one thing I've been looking for is some sort of feat that will raise effective turning level, if there is one.

[chronomatophobe]

Was gonna say something, but if this is a half-high-op game, then your party is going to need you to carry them on your back. It seems like your character's power potential isn't anywhere near to it's party members'.

If you're worried about falling behind in your party or not being able to shine, don't. You're the only tier 1 character. You can decide to be full a spellcaster (on full-ish casting progression) and still occasionally hit things without worrying about the downsides in a party like that. You will always be an imperative addition to it if you just make reasonable choices. Kinda seems like you could do just about anything you want to and still be objectively more powerful than the rest of the party.

Also, don't worry about raising your turning level. There really isn't a good reason to do so. The optimal use of your Turn Undead attempts is toward use of the Divine Metamagic feat--A Cleric's most OP friend.

[Kioras]

Was gonna say something, but if this is a half-high-op game, then your party is going to need you to carry them on your back. It seems like your character's power potential isn't anywhere near to it's party members'.

If you're worried about falling behind in your party or not being able to shine, don't. You're the only tier 1 character. You can decide to be full a spellcaster (on full-ish casting progression) and still occasionally hit things without worrying about the downsides in a party like that. You will always be an imperative addition to it if you just make reasonable choices. Kinda seems like you could do just about anything you want to and still be objectively more powerful than the rest of the party.

Also, don't worry about raising your turning level. There really isn't a good reason to do so. The optimal use of your Turn Undead attempts is toward use of the Divine Metamagic feat--A Cleric's most OP friend.

Yes, after another game session, yesterday that's what I have been thinking. I selected a cleric because their was not healer and they needed someone to heal and this was before I had done any research into the class.

As such the party expected me to spend my time healing in combat, which if they noticed yesterday, is a real junk way to spend actions, as healing needs a free hand regardless, so either drop a weapon or shield.

At the moment I am having trouble trying to decide on what spells would be useful to memorize(level 1 spells, ,still just level 2), and I have tried several to mediocre effect currently.

[herrhauptmann]

[QUOTE=Kioras;15486412

As such the party expected me to spend my time healing in combat, which if they noticed yesterday, is a real junk way to spend actions, as healing needs a free hand regardless, so either drop a weapon or shield.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like support for going with a two-handed weapon. Remove your hand as a free action.
A light shield or buckler should work as well. Buckler lets you use a weapon, light shield lets you carry things in your off hand. SHOULD be able to use the shield hand for either of those.

However, yeah, healing in combat sucks. Especially if you're not building to be the best healer possible. You'd be better off usually by just killing the enemy faster.
Last game I was in (pf) the DM had a houserule for healers. Standard healing spells were only swift actions. Or you could use your healing spell (or cleric type healing burst) as a standard action for an empowered version of your healing spell. It meant that clerics could heal, and still feel like they were having a positive effect on the game. The downside? They blew through their spells almost twice as fast.

If you're going to go healbot, I would recommend radiant servant of pelor from complete divine. Also lets you turn all undead into dust. Built right, with some Divine Metamagic:Persist+nightstick shenanigans, you'll only have to buff yourself for melee once in the morning. The rest of your spells can go to keeping the party alive.
And since you're making a character that the party wants you to play, rather than the character you want to play, the DM should let you retcon your character build.

[Gavinfoxx]

For a melee cleric, you want to perhaps make a cleric that can't heal in combat. Just a thought, if they want you to be the healbot.

[Kioras]

For a melee cleric, you want to perhaps make a cleric that can't heal in combat. Just a thought, if they want you to be the healbot.

What I was thinking, hopefully when i get to ordained champion they will realize that.

I was wondering if there is a feat to change the target of a smite, from smite undead to smite evil?

The other is a long term planning question, as will it be better to go for Fist of Raziel for 10 levels, or Knight of the Raven for 10 levels? classes seem pretty close.