Pun-Pun

[PaucaTerrorem]

Who is this Pun-Pun I keep seeing around?

[Arundel]

Behold Pun Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.), almighty overdiety of cheese!

Basically, Pun Pun is a conglomeration of some of the more abusable pieces of cheese to come out of 3.5. Unfortunately, I think is is one of the clearest uses of RAW in TO. Basically he serves as a figurehead for both the danger and excess of losing focus on the intention of the game in the pursuit of absolute power. It is the one and only time when the Stormwind fallacy has merit, because there is just nothing that can challenge an overdiety.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Aw jeez.... I'm gonna do it. If for no other reason to give the DM a rage embolism.

[Ignis6669]

Aw jeez.... I'm gonna do it. If for no other reason to give the DM a rage embolism.

Beware of flying books!

[Kish]

Just don't look to me for sympathy when the DM says, "There's no such entity as Pazuzu in my game." Or, "You summon Pazuzu, who laughs and tells you that, your strange delusions to the contrary, you're already Chaotic Evil and he has no reason to give you anything. And he's right. Correct your character sheet." Or, "Sarrukhs don't exist in my game." Or just whacks you over the head with the DMG.

[Hyena]

Aw jeez.... I'm gonna do it. If for no other reason to give the DM a rage embolism.
Remember - destiny made you a human and thus gave you flexible spine. Use it. Duck.

[Hamste]

Just don't look to me for sympathy when the DM says, "There's no such entity as Pazuzu in my game." Or, "You summon Pazuzu, who laughs and tells you that, your strange delusions to the contrary, you're already Chaotic Evil and he has no reason to give you anything. And he's right. Correct your character sheet." Or, "Sarrukhs don't exist in my game." Or just whacks you over the head with the DMG.

I think they would use the old version...just warning you though most DM's have heard this if they are into D&D a lot. Most of them will ban master of many forms the second you try to get it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Before the Pazazu version or the MoMF version, Pun-Pun was an egoist psion with Metamorphic Transfer, solely using straightforward rules and abilities more or less as intended. Most of the stuff people attack as why Pun-Pun shouldn't work was added in later to get earlier and earlier ascension.

[Studoku]

Before the Pazazu version or the MoMF version, Pun-Pun was an egoist psion with Metamorphic Transfer, solely using straightforward rules and abilities more or less as intended. Most of the stuff people attack as why Pun-Pun shouldn't work was added in later to get earlier and earlier ascension.
He needed the earlier ascension to stop the Omniscifier beating him.

[Telonius]

"As you finish speaking the words, a puff of smoke appears. However, instead of the demon lord you expected to see, a small kobold weaing a fedora stands before you.

'Hey, nice one! I remember when I used that trick about a hundred years ago. Now, I'm going to clue you in to something. See, I'm kind of the guy in charge here, so I get to screen all of Pazuzu's phone calls. But that doesn't really matter, because I'm not real. Neither are you, neither is everything you see around you. We're all figments of somebody else's imagination. And if you keep trying for more and more power, it ruins their fun. That's what you learn when you give yourself an arbitrary amount of intelligence and wisdom. Now, since you remind me of me, I'm going to cut you a break. We're going to rewind this a bit.'

You find yourself moving backwards through the last several minutes' actions, to right before you made the decision to give Pazuzu a call.

'That ought to do it. Now, you're going to forget about Pazuzu. And you're going to forget about me. But here's what you are going to remember: trying that kind of stunt is a Bad Idea. I have some helpers here.' He gestures to several squirrels that are suddenly at his side. 'Each of these little guys has an acorn and an Extraordinary quality of continuous True Strike. There's only enough room in this multiverse for one of me. You get hit in the head with one of those, you'll get an uneasy feeling, and you'll know you're getting too close. Now get going, and have fun.'"

[Piggy Knowles]

He needed the earlier ascension to stop the Omniscifier beating him.

Sure. I'm just saying that the core trick is still perfectly accessible even if you ban Pazazu or Candle of Invocation cheese or nerf MoMF.

The only way to stop Pun-Pun is to pretend that the Sarrukh don't exist and Manipulate Form was just a mad fever dream. And then, instead of Pun-Pun, you get a really diligent Illithid Savant or greater doppelgänger running the show, and no one wants THAT.

[pbdr]

I mean, as DM, I can just say "no" right? The first rule of D&D club is rule 0; the second rule of D&D club is rule 0....

As far as I'm concerned, possible by RAW does not grant the ability to break my game.....

[Arundel]

I mean, as DM, I can just say "no" right? The first rule of D&D club is rule 0; the second rule of D&D club is rule 0....

As far as I'm concerned, possible by RAW does not grant the ability to break my game.....

In TO it is basically assumed that the DM is a computer program bound by the RAW and logical derivations. Nothing TO is actually intended to be used in real play.

[inuyasha]

just want to know:

1. what is this Divine Minion class that pun pun has
2. Where can i find the Sarruhk

[Arundel]

just want to know:

1. what is this Divine Minion class that pun pun has
2. Where can i find the Sarruhk

Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a)
Sarruhk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Serpent_Kingdoms)

[Big Fau]

In TO it is basically assumed that the DM is a computer program bound by the RAW and logical derivations. Nothing TO is actually intended to be used in real play.

Not even. The DM is an editable text file used by Dwarf Fortress to run the game.


Seriously, some of the rules interpretations I've seen are utterly ludicrous.

[Piggy Knowles]

Not even. The DM is an editable text file used by Dwarf Fortress to run the game.


Seriously, some of the rules interpretations I've seen are utterly ludicrous.

Again, though, the scary thing about Pun-Pun is that it's based on a trick that is more or less using every ability as intended. I mean, OK, put aside the Divine Minion into MoMF cheese, or Pazazu shenanigans. And put aside some of the crazier things you have to do to pick up divine rank, etc.

But the core trick itself? It's all based on specific abilities that are designed to unlock monster abilities, combined with a monster ability that was intended to be used to create unstoppable hybrids. At it's core, that's all it is. It's not Pun-Pun's fault that the Sarruhk always thought too small, or that the game designers didn't stop and think, "hey, what happens if a player gets their hand on this ability?"

Seriously, there's not even a question of RAW versus RAI. What else are you supposed to do with feats like Metamorphic Transfer other than pick up a cool supernatural ability from one of your forms? What else are you supposed to do with Manipulate Form other than use it to create a more powerful creature?

[Emperor Tippy]

Shapechange + Sarruhk is all that need exist for Pun-Pun. With absolutely no RAW/RAI ambiguity at all.

Core+Serpent Kingdoms Wizard 17 can Pun-Pun just fine

[Someonelse]

In TO it is basically assumed that the DM is a computer program bound by the RAW and logical derivations. Nothing TO is actually intended to be used in real play.

What does TO mean?

[AuraTwilight]

Total Optimization.

[Tokiko Mima]

TO = Theoretical Optimization. It's where you test rules to their limits, and find that every rule can be interpreted in such a way as to make something the rule-bender finds cool.

[Rubik]

This:
TO = Theoretical Optimization. It's where you test rules to their limits, and find that every rule can be interpreted in such a way as to make something the rule-bender finds cool.

Not this:
Total Optimization.

[TuggyNE]

What does TO mean?

Theoretical Optimization, the abuse of strict RAW wordings, unintended consequences, unexpected interactions, and complete lack of any but the most perfunctory DM. Good TO does not rely on a permissive DM to function, and really great TO will work even with a DM who doesn't really want it to work that way (as long as strict RAW is adhered to).

TO is never intended for actual game use, and can invariably be shut down by a few suitably-chosen houserules. It has three major purposes: finding cool things, being known as a cool-thing-finder, and finding problems in the rules that need patching. Not all TO is done for all of those purposes, of course.

TO's Good twin is PO, or Practical Optimization, which is intended for actual games, relies on a sensible DM, and controls the absurdity of RAW interactions to produce a thematic character adapted to the group's chosen power level and style.

[Jack_Simth]

Sure. I'm just saying that the core trick is still perfectly accessible even if you ban Pazazu or Candle of Invocation cheese or nerf MoMF.

The only way to stop Pun-Pun is to pretend that the Sarrukh don't exist and Manipulate Form was just a mad fever dream.

Actually, it's arguable that Manipulate Form falls under the Same Effect with Differing Results (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects) clause, so that you're only ever under the effects of one invocation of Manipulate Form...

And then, instead of Pun-Pun, you get a really diligent Illithid Savant or greater doppelgänger running the show, and no one wants THAT.
... but yes, RAW manipulation and choice of interpretation is not really the method best suited for disabling cheddar, as people who are intent on shenanigans of that sort will find shenanigans of that sort.

Not this:
Total Optimization.
... although in the specific case of Pun-Pun, it really does apply.

[Crasical]

"As you finish speaking the words, a puff of smoke appears. However, instead of the demon lord you expected to see, a small kobold weaing a fedora stands before you.

Pun-Pun always struck me as more of a fez kinda guy.

[mattie_p]

Pun-Pun always struck me as more of a fez kinda guy.

You mean sort of like this? (My apologies for the terrible photoshop MS Paint job.)

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t467/pecklink/punpun_zps97c643ee.jpg

[Forrestfire]

"I wear a fez now. Fezzes are cool."

Also, I'm using that idea if I ever have a player start to think of it. Pun-pun will be the secret guardian of the universe, stopping upstart TOers from breaking his iron-fisted rule :smalltongue:

[Crasical]

You mean sort of like this? (My apologies for the terrible photoshop MS Paint job.)

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t467/pecklink/punpun_zps97c643ee.jpg

With a Hugh Hefner style smoking jacket.

[mattie_p]

With a Hugh Hefner style smoking jacket.

Okay, that one is on you.