Mechanics Issues with Undead PC's

[Cheiromancer]

I am curious about what kind of issues arise when there is an undead player character in a party. In no particular order


Is vulnerability to rebuking a problem?
How about to turning? (turn undead is easy to optimize)
Is the lack of a death's door buffer an issue? (I.e. they are destroyed at 0 hp)
Do the various immunities make it too easy for the character?
Does the LA and lack of Con make them too fragile?
Are special abilities unbalancing? (spawn, energy drain...?)
Are monster classes used? LA buyoff?


In theory some of the immunities match up to some of the vulnerabilities. A necropolitan is immune to dominate person, but he can be rebuked. A wight is immune to finger of death but a cleric with the sun domain can ruin his day. But in practice it seems to me that a DM who provides encounters where an undead PC can be rebuked or destroyed will seem to be acting unfairly. But if the DM is under restraint, the PC gets off too easily.

So I thought I would ask the playground what their collective experience has been. Particularly if there were particular house rules that had to be adopted in order to deal with these (or other) issues.

[GilesTheCleric]

I played a 3.5 mummy in a PF game once, and it worked alright. Really, the roleplaying was the most difficult part. As long as you build the undead to make up for its weaknesses, it really shouldn't be a problem. And even in that case, a mummy is much more difficult than your standard wight/skellington.

I think if you want to make any houserules, the best one to make might be a feat that allows undead to heal from positive energy (the reverse of the one that lets mortals heal from negative energy, tomb-touched soul IIRC).

In my case, I did a bit too much charop on my mummy, so he ended up being far too powerful, but in a game with others who know what they're doing, it should be very balanced, or the undead might even lag behind.

Addressing your points:

rebuking: Nope. DMs probably don't optimize this. It's not too difficult to counter-op anyway, and at high levels you can become immune.

turning: Same as above.

destruction at 0: This affected my roleplay a lot, probably the most of anything besides the whole not-having-flesh thing. But, again you can get around it with various means - contingency, fast healing, DR, etc.

immunities: Yes. But, there's still destruction at 0. I think it's balanced at low levels, at least.

LA, no con: Many undeads have no LA, and picking something with LA is the same no matter what it is. The lack of con can be overcome by switching it to cha, but otherwise, d12 is the same as d10 +1 or d8 +2. Just take average hp every level and you're fine.

special abilities: Yes, at least initially. If they have fixed DCs, though, they won't scale well.

monster classes: Apparently the ones in LM don't have to be taken for all of the levels before multiclassing. I thought it was the same as always (like in SS), but if multiclassing is actually allowed early, then undead PCs become incredibly more powerful, and able to take advantage of casting. Essentially, they're not stuck with a charging, tripping, or other melee/martial build. LA buy-off is DM specific as always, but personally I like it. It will help to keep their abilities from hampering them late game.

[mabriss lethe]

I DMed an undead heavy party once, it had some problems, but nothing insurmountable. The party was a mix of undead and living characters with Tomb tainted soul. The undead in the party were very fragile due to LA and RHD issues, and on top of that, the melee-centric undead had trouble hitting and damaging level appropriate encounters.

[ArcturusV]

The biggest problems I've had with Undead in the party have been:

Aura/always on sort of abilities: This came up with a Mummy PC as his Aura of Fear thing basically meant he couldn't really participate in any social encounters with NPCs without blowing it for the party (Yeah, no one likes being sidelined), and that there were random chances throughout the day that his own teammates were going to get feared. So we stopped using Mummies.

The other problem was when I had people who wanted to play Vampires. Sunlight is an issue. Running Water is an issue. Lugging around their coffin and finding a place to stash it everyday is an issue. Vampires just aren't really built for Travel all that well. And they have enough weaknesses that they make for fragile, annoying PCs in the average party.

The third issue is one not really undead centric, but it doesn't help. Is there's always that guy who wants a half a dozen templates applied. And that applies to guys wanting to play Undead as well. There's eventually going to be the guy who has something like +10 LA and think he's badass because he has all these shiny powers he got with his LA...

... until he realizes he only has something like 20 HP, is VERY fragile compared to what they all are facing (And can't even get a rez without losing all his powers he bargained so hard for), and that a couple of Commoners with Holy Water can dust his superior being in a single round.

[Psyren]

Unless you're doing a full undead campaign, I would limit undead PCs to Necropolitan to avoid any possible hiccups, and possibly force them to go around town heavily hooded or disguised lest they attract attention. You get the undead feel that way (immunities and lack of con) without any of the massive, massive amounts of baggage most other undead carry with them. (Insatiable hunger, light vulnerability, fear auras, draining touches, spawn creation etc. etc. etc.)

[7thW1ckedness]

... until he realizes he only has something like 20 HP, is VERY fragile compared to what they all are facing (And can't even get a rez without losing all his powers he bargained so hard for), and that a couple of Commoners with Holy Water can dust his superior being in a single round.

HA! Love it.
Seen it happen in a game once.


Truthfully, I've often seen undeath grievously abused by minR-maxR players generally as a way to avoid biological dooms (like starving and drowning) as well as critical hits, sneak attack damage, some spells ect and other nasty combat related dangers, add some natural armor and darkvision and whatnot and depending on which undead template, it can significantly spike the character into a different league.
Even with character creations, some players will prefer to dump a few levels to get rid of a low ability score by dumping it into CON - for example, most commonly with spellcasters and the litch template.

Is vulnerability to rebuking a problem?
How about to turning? (turn undead is easy to optimize)
NPC turning/rebuke abilities become a reasonable threat for the undead player, I find though its more difficult for players to overcome at low levels, and not exceptionally dangerous at all at higher levels.

Is the lack of a death's door buffer an issue? (I.e. they are destroyed at 0 hp)
being destroyed at 0 HP is kind of a problem, and undeath doesn't leave many option for res. that allow the PC to keep their undeathy-ness (aside from liches and such things that can come back on the own) Most smart players will adjust their combat tactics accordingly to compensate for the lack of deaths door though.

Do the various immunities make it too easy for the character?
Does the LA and lack of Con make them too fragile?
Mostly I find undead PCs end up trading simple vulnerability (like starving) for a few fairly empowering traits (no crits.) and a few potentially crippling social conditions, (vampires and sunlight, water, everything, or ghouls and the need to feed on living flesh and the spawns and whatnot) So depending on the world and how the DM exploits those conditions, I'd say overall it doesn't make them too fragile, but fragile in different ways.
The immunities I find make a lot of encounters significantly less dangerous, unless up against specific threats (clerics, magic weapons, blessed water, holy ground, fire, ect.)

Are special abilities unbalancing? (spawn, energy drain...?)
This I find really depends on how the player uses the special abilities. Some can be really overpowering if used correctly, For example the vampire ability to create spawns can be used almost as a replacement for the leadership feat, and the ghouls ability to paralyse things can be very lethal if pared with the right feats (death blow from sword&fist for example) which can reduce many NPCs to "claw attack, <paralysed> and I eat their throat as a coup-de grace" if they dont have killer fortitude saves.

Are monster classes used? LA buyoff?
Depends on the circumstances I'd imagine, I prefer LA buyoff on creation, but if the change to undead occurs during play, monster classes feel more appropriate.

As a side note; because alot of CON based things get shifted over to the CHA score (fortitude saves for example), and all undead creature special abilities are CHA based (like ghouls touch, most araus of bad-stuff) undead characters tend to be very reliant on having high CHA scores to get the most use out of their undeadness.

Undead can be a nice variant to round out a concept too.
I had a human ghoul fighter/barbarian played as a soldier that treated his condition as a curse by the gods for living a sinful and bloody life previously (actually, he was just killed by a ghoul, but one has to rationalise such things right?) and sought redemption thru battle and possibly release and glory.

His occasionally poorly timed "snack-attacks" in combat really added some good horror to the parties encounters. RP-wise; the worst thing I had to do was take minor steps to hide the undead nature of the character and make him seem more mad and crazy than supernatural.

[mangosta71]

A hat of disguise will take care of the problems that many undead have in social situations.

Turning/rebuking are only a problem at high level if the DM specifically designs an NPC to counter an undead character. At low level, it's not really any more dangerous than an NPC with charm person or cause fear.

The death's door buffer is only 10 hit points. That's a pretty small window, especially with the amounts of damage getting thrown around by level 5 or so. Most things that will bring a PC down by that point will do it by a large enough margin to straight up kill him anyway.

For the most part, the immunities aren't to things that matter. Living PCs can get immunity to the few that do, so no big deal.

LA can make a difference, depending on which template is being used. Lack of CON, well... most of the classes that would choose to be undead have small enough hit dice that they'd need a significant CON modifier to make up the difference that upgrading to a d12 makes. A wizard needs an 18 to make up that difference and a 20 to actually lose hp; a cleric breaks even with 14 (which is reasonable) but needs a 16 (less reasonable before mid-level) to gain hp on his d8.

Most special abilities don't scale. Even the ones that do don't scale anywhere near as well as spells.

LA buyoff, as an optional rule, is up to the DM's discretion. If you want to go long-term for PC progression, the monster classes are almost universally a bad prospect.

[ArcturusV]

Actually 7th, Undead don't get CHA bonus to Fort saves at all that I can find. Exception being particular monsters in PF do (Like the PF version of the Lich), but as a general rule they don't. It's just that they're flat immune to a ton of Fort Saves (Anything that isn't Creature and/or Object on the target line).

[Alex12]

In the campaign I'm currently playing, my backup character is going to be a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer, possibly with some Pale Master.
I'm already talking with the DM about ways to modify the DN so I can replace the "you get traits that undead have" class abilities.
And he's making me pay for any bonuses from stuff like Corpsecrafter.

Given that I'm the only one who does any optimizing in the party (our tank is more optimized than my current character, but that's because I basically built that one, plus it's hard to screw up tank with a Goliath Crusader) I expect to be the most powerful one in the group. Especially since we don't have any casters.

[7thW1ckedness]

Actually 7th, Undead don't get CHA bonus to Fort saves at all that I can find. Exception being particular monsters in PF do (Like the PF version of the Lich), but as a general rule they don't. It's just that they're flat immune to a ton of Fort Saves (Anything that isn't Creature and/or Object on the target line).

I stand corrected. Seems I mixed that up with the concentration check rule.

[Cheiromancer]

How easy would it be for an undead PC to pass as a member of their former species? Would it take Knowledge (religion) to recognize them? Or Knowledge (local) to recognize that "they aren't from around here"?

For necropolitans and vampires I don't think it should be very difficult. I am not sure about ghouls, wights or awakened zombies (assuming the bodies are fresh).

[Psyren]

How easy would it be for an undead PC to pass as a member of their former species? Would it take Knowledge (religion) to recognize them? Or Knowledge (local) to recognize that "they aren't from around here"?

There's no check necessary to realize "you're not human/elf." Recognizing exactly WHAT you are would take Religion (as you would have to know what a Necropolitan/Vampire/etc. even is) but not recognizing what you're not, if that makes sense. As for passing for a specific race, that's where Disguise, shapeshifting or illusions come into play.



For necropolitans and vampires I don't think it should be very difficult. I am not sure about ghouls, wights or awakened zombies (assuming the bodies are fresh).

Necropolitans are white as a sheet. It would be pretty difficult to find a normal human or elf with that kind of coloring. Vampires have a number of tells as well, including hardened predatory features, the various weaknesses they have to take pains to conceal, and of course the everpresent fangs.

[Cheiromancer]

So the disguise DC would be somewhere between +5 (minor details) and -2 (other race)... but does becoming a Necropolitan change your race? It gains the augmented subtype, but I don't think it loses any subtypes- and isn't "elf" or "human" a subtype?

I am still uncertain that it is obvious that a given creature is undead rather alive. Or if it is, what skill (and what DC modifier) is required to address the problem.

[Psyren]

So the disguise DC would be somewhere between +5 (minor details) and -2 (other race)... but does becoming a Necropolitan change your race? It gains the augmented subtype, but I don't think it loses any subtypes- and isn't "elf" or "human" a subtype?

"Elf" and "human" are humanoid subtypes. Necropolitans are undead, so those subtypes no longer apply. It's the same reason you don't have "elf zombies" or "elf skeletons."



I am still uncertain that it is obvious that a given creature is undead rather alive. Or if it is, what skill (and what DC modifier) is required to address the problem.

Telling they are undead is obvious. The check only comes into play when trying to figure out exactly what kind of undead they are. Are they vampires? Wights? Newly-created Liches? That's where Knowledge (Religion) or other avenues of study come into play.

If you want a fluff justification, here is LM's description of them: "A necropolitan’s skin is dry, withered, and powdery. Its eyes are as pale as driven snow, and as lifeless." Not very elven, or human for that matter.

[Cheiromancer]

Telling they are undead is obvious.

Well, Malack is not obviously undead. And neither is Dallia Thistledown (LM 153).

I just don't see where your confidence is coming from, rules-wise, that it is easy to identify a necropolitan gray elf (say) as undead, as opposed to an old, sickly elf.

[Psyren]

Well, Malack is not obviously undead.

The Giant is specifically using a houserule where Malack is concerned, to hide his fangs and whatnot until he "vamps out," so he is a poor example.

Dallia's story is easily explained by her +22 to Disguise.



I just don't see where your confidence is coming from, rules-wise, that it is easy to identify a necropolitan gray elf (say) as undead, as opposed to an old, sickly elf.

Did you not read the description I posted? You'd have to be an elf who witnessed the fall of Myth Drannor to look like that.

[drack]

Are special abilities unbalancing? (spawn, energy drain...?)
This I find really depends on how the player uses the special abilities. Some can be really overpowering if used correctly, For example the vampire ability to create spawns can be used almost as a replacement for the leadership feat, and the ghouls ability to paralyse things can be very lethal if pared with the right feats (death blow from sword&fist for example) which can reduce many NPCs to "claw attack, <paralysed> and I eat their throat as a coup-de grace" if they dont have killer fortitude saves.


Correction. Vampires cap at what clerics get through rebuking, I'd suggest a similar cap on other ones that the player plays. Remember that LM says that unintelligent are obedient, intelligent are essentially frenetic, so spawn of my spawn may dislike how I treat the bestest guy n the world :smalltongue:

[Alex12]

"Elf" and "human" are humanoid subtypes. Necropolitans are undead, so those subtypes no longer apply. It's the same reason you don't have "elf zombies" or "elf skeletons."



Telling they are undead is obvious. The check only comes into play when trying to figure out exactly what kind of undead they are. Are they vampires? Wights? Newly-created Liches? That's where Knowledge (Religion) or other avenues of study come into play.

If you want a fluff justification, here is LM's description of them: "A necropolitan’s skin is dry, withered, and powdery. Its eyes are as pale as driven snow, and as lifeless." Not very elven, or human for that matter.
I like to call this situation "The Elan problem" since Elans run into a similar problem, being Aberrations despite being created from humans and having no visible difference
I always figured you stack the "Minor Details" and "Other Race" modifiers for disguise. You're trying to imitate "yourself as a human (or whatever you used to be)." Pretending to be what is, essentially, a past version of yourself shouldn't be too hard.

[Devas]

"Elf" and "human" are humanoid subtypes. Necropolitans are undead, so those subtypes no longer apply. It's the same reason you don't have "elf zombies" or "elf skeletons."

Necropolitans have the augmented subtype though, so an elf necropolitan is an Undead (Augmented Humanoid), which muddies the waters a bit.

Not that I disagree with your main point though, my elf necropolitan employs both magic (Disguise Undead, Undetectable Alignment, and soon Permanent Arcane Sight) and mundane (Disguise Kit and a fully covering outfit, including a veil where appropriate) means to keep her undeath a secret and stay in a party with paladins and the like. :smallcool: