[3.5] White Dragonspawn, worth it?

[Yael]

I was checking the DragonLance Campaign Seting and I saw the Dragonspawn, it looks pretty cool, it gives nice things and that powerful class level of sorcerer, I though about using it because it doesn't interrupts the sorcerer's spellcasting progresion, worth it?

I would say yes, what do you playground folks think?

[GilesTheCleric]

I'd say go for it, especially with buy-off. But, I'm not sure to what extent it allows for sorcerer progression to continue. Even though it's wotc, the language is different: "effective sorcerer level increases by +1". I would personally take this to mean that you cast as a sorcerer +1 level, but don't gain spells as if you had leveled. But, someone may correct me. If you're not gaining extra spells, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Sorcs are cramped for spells enough as it is.

[Yael]

I'd say go for it, especially with buy-off. But, I'm not sure to what extent it allows for sorcerer progression to continue. Even though it's wotc, the language is different: "effective sorcerer level increases by +1". I would personally take this to mean that you cast as a sorcerer +1 level, but don't gain spells as if you had leveled. But, someone may correct me. If you're not gaining extra spells, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Sorcs are cramped for spells enough as it is.


Well, it gives you an efective level (of sorcerer) just by taking the template (without CFs) I would say that if the class prevented from gaining spellcasting from it, it would specify.

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't think so. Spells gained are much like BAB or saves or a bonus feat. You only get them when you actually take a level in the class. If you're effectively sorcerer+1, then you're certainly not gaining the BAB and saves of a sorcerer. It makes much more sense for it to increase your sorcerer CL by 1, and by 1 for all other effects that require x sorc levels, eg. damage dice.

RAW is additive. If something isn't stated, then it isn't the case.

[NeoPhoenix0]

You know funny thing about RAW, it doesn't play well with ... anything really. This template is a fine example. Especially Death Throes, it gives you a radius, a DC, and a table reference for effect. The table gives you type and amount of damage. This is clearly lacking any actual effect. Yes the example makes it abundantly clear that people in the radius take that damage, save for half, when the dragonspawn dies, but that isn't RAW, its an example which are also notoriously wrong a lot of the time. By RAW even if it did this it is a save to negate because the actual description in the template says save to avoid effects.

To the point, ask your DM because the text is extremely vague.

@GilesTheCleric: According to your interpretation if you take sorcerer levels you really only add one to your effective sorcerer level. That doesn't do anything because it doesn't state what it raises your effective sorcerer level for like a ranger's animal companion does for effective druid level. RAI i think it should increase you spells, spell slots, and caster level because it is in a ability that lets you cast as a level 1 sorcerer if you didn't have any sorcerer levels.

Edited for spelling and clarity

[Spuddles]

Yes, absolutely take it if you are allowed to. 7 natural AC, natural flight, no loss to sorc spellcasting, +2 dex & con, darkvision 60', and a mediocre blast you get to use once or twice per combat.

Re: spellcasting progression:

"Spellcasting (Su): All spawn gain the ability to cast spells as 1st-level sorcerers. If the base creature already possessed levels in sorcerer, the dragonspawn’s effective sorcerer level increases by +1."

It doesn't say caster level, it explicitly comes out and says effective sorcerer level increases by +1. This should also advance familiar benefits and anything else tied to levels in the sorcerer class (but not HD dependent, like skills or saves).

[NeoPhoenix0]

It doesn't say caster level, it explicitly comes out and says effective sorcerer level increases by +1. This should also advance familiar benefits and anything else tied to levels in the sorcerer class (but not HD dependent, like skills or saves).

Not quite in all cases of increasing effective class level it states what it increases it for. Effective class level is not a term that is defined anywhere either so RAW the statement means nothing. I don't think it was intended to increase familiar level either but it is hard to tell with this template. WoTC didn't put a lot of effort into this book compared to other books, at least it isn't as bad as Tome of Magic.

[GilesTheCleric]

-snip-
@GilesTheCleric: According to your interpretation if you take sorcerer levels you really only add one to your effective sorcerer level. That doesn't do anything because it doesn't state what it raises your effective sorcerer level for like a ranger's animal companion does for effective druid level. RAI i think it should increase you spells, spell slots, and caster level because it is in a ability that lets you cast as a level 1 sorcerer if you didn't have any sorcerer levels.

Edited for spelling and clarity

I'm not sure how that's what my post says? I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I thought that my explanation was clear (or at least hopefully more precise than the DCS). Please explain my lack of clarity?

RAI, I disagree, but that's RAI. To each their own. My reasoning: wotc is clear in cases like in heirophant vs thaumaturgist to say when spells per day are granted, and when it is only caster level. Unfortunately, DCS is, as you said, terribly written, so there's really no way to know. I have looked for other uses of the word "effective" in places like paladin (turn), and in various items that grant turning bonuses, but those are all written extremely precisely. PrCs of course always take three paragraphs to describe the process of granting spells and CL.

[NeoPhoenix0]

After rereading your posts i must apologize. Everything you said is fine.

I now believe by RAW a sorcerer with this template gets effective sorcerer level+1 which does absolutely nothing.

[GilesTheCleric]

No problem. Thank you very much for the apology - that's mature, something that's pretty rare here on the internet. I think you're right - this template doesn't really do anything for sorcerer. Too bad, because otherwise every sorcerer ever would take it. Free level, and not a single drawback. Unless there's a spell specifically for smiting creatures with wings or breath weapons that I'm not aware of ^^

[NeoPhoenix0]

Don't forget the awesomeness that can be had from a 30 ft'\ cone breath weapon and a few metabreath feats.

I'm gonna go see what the guys in the dysfunctional rules thread think of this template.

[Feint's End]

Aside from the awkward wording (and the resulting RAW interpretations though the RAI seems to be pretty clear here) White Dragonspawn is considered one of the most powerful if not cheesy races because of this sorcerorlevel increase. Pretty much on par with a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold.