Skill point efficiency

[SciChronic]

so my next character is a factotum, and i'm playing the role of both skill monkey and face. My issue is that with 108 skill points and knowledge devotion, i'm unsure of where to place my skill points efficiently.

key skills i need are:
diplomacy
disable device
gather information (kind of? i think 1 point alone should suffice)
hide
knowledges(arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, psionics?, religion, the planes)
listen
move silently
open lock
search
spot

skills i want for RP and fluff:
bluff
perform(sing)
slight of hand
knowledge (nobility and royalty)

skill tricks:
collector of stories

[Flickerdart]

What level are you?

By how D&D math works, if you're not maxing skills, you probably shouldn't bother. Factotum is the one exception, since you can add your level to any trained skill 1/day, so try to put ranks into ones you would use often (such as Hide) and only one rank in stuff you won't use almost ever (like Gather Info, Sleight of Hand, Perform, and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)).

If you need more skill points, take Nymph's Kiss.

[SciChronic]

i'm level 7 in a ECL9 starting campaign because i'm using a homebrew race with a +2 LA.

details on race located here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287972).

also, my character is a singer who moonlights as a master thief/pickpocket.

[Flickerdart]

Hm, looks like you're quite a few skill points short then. I'd max all the key skills you listed except gather info and the knowledges, then put 1 point into all the remaining skills, max the one Knowledge you think your DM is most likely to trip and then put all the remaining points into the second likeliest.

[Gildedragon]

Gotta say man, go for the lesser version.
You have spells and skills and other stuff to buff up your disguise. The stats are nice; sorta worth the LA, but barely.

You ought to be level 8 if there is LA buyoff.
if there isn't buyoff. Go for an LA 0 race. You're missing in on a feat and 2 levels.

How psionics heavy is the campaign? Just put in 1 point if it might be psionicky.

Perform (sing) just 1 point, its a fluff skill and factotumizing it you get 1 great performance a day

Kn nob: 5 (only if maxing out diplomacy)

hide: 1

UMD: Max

[BowStreetRunner]

Keep in mind that at 3rd level you will get your INT bonus to all of your STR and DEX skills. This means that you can afford to put fewer ranks into some of these skills and still have a decent, usable score.

[Mountain]

Don't throw anything at me; I'm going to suggest a truenamer feat.

Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind can give you the utterance (SLA, basically): Universal Aptitude. It adds an untyped +5 to all skill checks. This will, however, require ranks in Truespeak, but that's a class skill for you (because everything is a class skill for you) so it could be worth the investment for the return.

[SciChronic]

Oh i should've mentioned, i'm using a martial factotum variant, so i traded out Arcane dilettante for maneuvers and stances

[BowStreetRunner]

Don't throw anything at me; I'm going to suggest a truenamer feat.

Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind can give you the utterance (SLA, basically): Universal Aptitude. It adds an untyped +5 to all skill checks. This will, however, require ranks in Truespeak, but that's a class skill for you (because everything is a class skill for you) so it could be worth the investment for the return.

It's actually better than it looks. While it is an SLA with only a 5 round duration, there is no specific limit to how often you can use it. The DC to activate it goes up by 2 each time you use it in the same day is all.

Universal Aptitude can be used on others - an utterance has a 60 ft range and no saving throw (although SR applies). You can say an utterance backward, meaning you can apply a -5 to an enemy instead of a +5 to an ally.

[mattie_p]

It's actually better than it looks. While it is an SLA with only a 5 round duration, there is no specific limit to how often you can use it. The DC to activate it goes up by 2 each time you use it in the same day is all.

Universal Aptitude can be used on others - an utterance has a 60 ft range and no saving throw (although SR applies). You can say an utterance backward, meaning you can apply a -5 to an enemy instead of a +5 to an ally.

Except for the fact that it is well known that truespeaking DCs scale horribly, you'll have to invest heavily via feats and WBL to utilize that +5 regularly.

[Flickerdart]

Do note that you need to put in quite a bit of effort to get the damn thing to work reliably - the DC formula is CR*2+15, so you'd need to hit DC33 Truespeak. 10 ranks, let's say +7 Intelligence, +2 masterwork tool...you need to roll a 14 or better to activate it even 1/day. Yes, you could expend more resources on making it work more often, but those are resources you could have just put towards other skills in the first place.

[Gildedragon]

yeah the base dc is 15+level*2
so lets say taking 10, you gotta keep the skill equal to your level+1 to get the result for sure using cunning knowledge. This is taking into account the personal true-name bonus.
The skillpoint investment isn't worth it for the bonus.

[Flickerdart]

yeah the base dc is 15+level*2
so lets say taking 10, you gotta keep the skill equal to your level+1 to get the result for sure using cunning knowledge. This is taking into account the personal true-name bonus.
Unlike a Truenamer, you don't get Know Personal Truename for free.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's actually better than it looks.

Or not. Yep, not was definitely an option I intended to leave open when I wrote that post. :smallredface:

[Gildedragon]

Isn't that just delightful.

[nedz]

If your party has the means to acquire and use Wands/Scrolls of Knock then you can dump Open Lock.

Consider the feat Nymph's Kiss. If your character can stand this exalted feat then you will have more skill points to splash around. Also a Headband of Int will help, but you have to wear it all of the time — well technically for at least 24 hours before you level up, but can you predict that ?

[SciChronic]

Gotta say man, go for the lesser version.
You have spells and skills and other stuff to buff up your disguise. The stats are nice; sorta worth the LA, but barely.

You ought to be level 8 if there is LA buyoff.


my choice in a +X LA race was both for fluff and an intentional handicap so that i don't overshadow my party (as the DM and i are the only ones with much experience). That said, i'm trying to see how far i can push it under my new limitations.

I don't see how i would be level 8. As i start with 36k experience, and paid 7k xp for the first buyoff bringing me to +1 LA. 29k xp with a +1 LA should put me at 7 class levels with 1000 xp towards my next. ECL8, yes. Class level 8? no.


If your party has the means to acquire and use Wands/Scrolls of Knock then you can dump Open Lock.

Consider the feat Nymph's Kiss. If your character can stand this exalted feat then you will have more skill points to splash around. Also a Headband of Int will help, but you have to wear it all of the time — well technically for at least 24 hours before you level up, but can you predict that ?

can't do either i'm afraid. I have a rust monster wand for opening locks when i'm with my party and they can see me, but i'm a master thief, and am prone to skim off the top when they can't see me. I'll likely open a chest before i notify my party, see whats inside, snag a bit of gold, put in some lesser coins (i keep 100 of both copper and silver on me for it), close and relock the chest, then call the team over and rust monster wand the lock open and act suprised.

as for nymph's kiss, my character is far from exalted.

[Gildedragon]

By buying off your LA, you become a level lower than the rest of the party, gaining more XP per encounter.

To avoid overshadowing I'd opt for less than optimal multiclassing and conscientious playing. after all if the LA is worth it... And that way worrying about skill assignation is less a concern. But that is me. I'd advice taking speak language a number of times, skip iaijutsu (unless you were looking forward to it), keep the common creature kns at 5+,
Diplomacy: keep it high but don't go stratospheric

Don't steal from the party. Not even skimming. Keep the trust of the party sacrosanct. Provided the character has any common sense, they won't want their party members to have any reason to distrust them. Distrust and suspicions of evil lead to getting skewered by the paladin in the least euphemistic way possible.
Use an eternal wand of knock, it helps with non metal locks.

[Flickerdart]

Also a Headband of Int will help, but you have to wear it all of the time — well technically for at least 24 hours before you level up, but can you predict that ?
As a temporary bonus, it doesn't affect skill points even if you wear it when leveling up.

[Lightlawbliss]

I forget the spells, but I remember there are 2 spells that give large bonuses on spells. I belive one is +20 enhancement and the other is +15 insight. they both apply to a list of skills. you might want to take a look at them (anyone remember which spells these are?)

[Flickerdart]

I forget the spells, but I remember there are 2 spells that give large bonuses on spells. I belive one is +20 enhancement and the other is +15 insight. they both apply to a list of skills. you might want to take a look at them (anyone remember which spells these are?)
Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight, I believe, both Cleric spells that applicable to a single check.

[Gildedragon]

Master's Touch I think also grants a considerable bonus to skill checks

[Lightlawbliss]

Master's Touch I think also grants a considerable bonus to skill checks

Master's touch is the proficiency with everything you hold while casting spell

[Gildedragon]

There's 2 of them. The skill one is just +4

[Lightlawbliss]

There's 2 of them. The skill one is just +4

what book? all the versions I'm finding online are some form of the proficiency version.

[Gildedragon]

PHBII iirc

[Lightlawbliss]

ok, found it, and a +4 insight for a 2nd lvl spell isn't very good (especially if ur a cleric) divine insight is 5+caster lvl (max 15) insight bonus for a cleric 2, pali 2 spell and this version of master's touch is a flat +4 for a sor/wiz 2, bard 2, cleric 2. personally don't see any reason I would ever use it but to each his own

[Gildedragon]

Most skill boosting spells are cleric, not sor/wiz . If with access only to sor/wiz spells one works with what one's got. Unlike cleric spells it can be put into an eternal wand.

[SciChronic]

By buying off your LA, you become a level lower than the rest of the party, gaining more XP per encounter.

To avoid overshadowing I'd opt for less than optimal multiclassing and conscientious playing. after all if the LA is worth it... And that way worrying about skill assignation is less a concern. But that is me. I'd advice taking speak language a number of times, skip iaijutsu (unless you were looking forward to it), keep the common creature kns at 5+,
Diplomacy: keep it high but don't go stratospheric

Don't steal from the party. Not even skimming. Keep the trust of the party sacrosanct. Provided the character has any common sense, they won't want their party members to have any reason to distrust them. Distrust and suspicions of evil lead to getting skewered by the paladin in the least euphemistic way possible.
Use an eternal wand of knock, it helps with non metal locks.

the amount of XP i pay is a set amount though. for a +2 LA the first buyoff is 7k and the second is 9k. so since we're starting as ECL9 which is 36k xp i end up with 29k. for a +1LA with 29k i am level 7, or ECL8.

As for stealing from the party, i've run it by the group, and they're okay with me doing so. Also my character is CN with rather evil tendancies.