Z's Locate Object

[LokiRagnarok]

Sorry if this was mentioned in the main thread.

Why does Z cast Locate Object?

You sense the direction of a well-known or clearly visualized object. You can search for general items, in which case you locate the nearest one of its kind if more than one is within range. Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails. You cannot specify a unique item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination).

What does he hope to find? As far as I understand, the Rift/Gate is more akin to a portal or probably a blob of energy, without necessarily being a physical manifestation, so to speak. Imho, it wouldn't be an object any more than a fire or a spark. So it's likely they cannot find it. :smallconfused:

[Copperdragon]

Either Zz'dtri knows more or it was a stupid spell to use. I think it's the latter.

[factotum]

As far as I understand, the Rift/Gate is more akin to a portal or probably a blob of energy, without necessarily being a physical manifestation, so to speak.

The rift may be that, but every Gate we've seen so far has been a physical object--it hasn't always been the *same* physical object (e.g. Dorukan used an actual gate, whereas the Azure City one was a sapphire), but it's always been one.

[Shred-Bot]

Maybe that was the only divination spell he had currently prepared? (Or maybe he also had true seeing and detect magic but didn't want to duplicate efforts.) Their plan was to let the heroes trip all the traps and beat all the illusions, so maybe he went light on the utility and heavy on the combat for his spell list today.

[theinsulabot]

The rift may be that, but every Gate we've seen so far has been a physical object--it hasn't always been the *same* physical object (e.g. Dorukan used an actual gate, whereas the Azure City one was a sapphire), but it's always been one.

this is my interpretation. he wasn't trying to home in on the rift, he was trying to find the gate, which arguably would have worked. At least, its a reasonable attempt for him to try.

[HanKhalifa]

I did a quick check of the srd, and it seems to indeed be a poor usage of the spell, despite the rules loosely/not-at-all being followed. The wall itself would be enough to block the spell, as long as it's thicker than a thin sheet of lead, and I doubt Z is familiar enough with the gates/rifts to have a clear picture of it in his mind, which would technically be necessary to find a specific gate. So the gate could easily be right behind the wall, and in front of their faces.

However, it does come to mind that a) it's probably the only spell he had to use in such a situation and b) being a wizard, since he had it prepared, it would otherwise go to waste, so why not at least try?

I'm also still entertaining the idea that the group dynamic (or lack thereof :P) is causing treachery and/or dissent. It's worth noting, though, that Z has shown unfaltering loyalty to Nale, despite having no well-explained reason for doing so.

[Kazyan]

Maybe Z was Locating the rock, not the gate, to check if it was real or not.

[Reddish Mage]

Maybe Z was Locating the rock, not the gate, to check if it was real or not.

that's the only use that makes any sense.

[Hopeless]

Is that block made of the same stone as the rest of the pyramid?

If not he could have been trying to detect if there was something inside the stone block like a secret entrance which might have been built of the pyramid's stuff rather than the stone block?

If that block is a puzzle stone in that you need to touch certain words to open it maybe Z was trying to discern anything different, maybe he noticed what the deceased member's of Girard's family line were wearing and was trying to discern if any of them were either within or below the block since that would suggest a secret entrance?

[King of Nowhere]

I think Z assumed all the gates are equal (he knows no better) and so he would try to locate the nearest gate, imaginign it to be like Dorukan's one. Of course it failed.
There's already been plenty of discussion that all the spells cast would not detect anything if the gate was inside the stone block, even without magic to hide it

[jere7my]

I did a quick check of the srd, and it seems to indeed be a poor usage of the spell, despite the rules loosely/not-at-all being followed. The wall itself would be enough to block the spell, as long as it's thicker than a thin sheet of lead, and I doubt Z is familiar enough with the gates/rifts to have a clear picture of it in his mind, which would technically be necessary to find a specific gate. So the gate could easily be right behind the wall, and in front of their faces.

A wall will only block the spell if it contains a thin sheet of lead (or a thick one). Any thickness of stone, up to 400 feet + 40 feet per level, would not. If Zz'd'tri searched for "the nearest gate-like thing", it should have worked just fine. Sure, there might have been lead in the stone, and maybe casting it again to detect lead sheets would've been smart, but it was still worthwhile.

[Copperdragon]

I doubt "the nearest gate-like thing" is specific enough.

The rift is no "gate", but a rift in existence as well. The gate is also no real "gate", but a spell that keeps the rift closed. It might look like a gate, but it does not have to and even if it does, I very much doubt it's an actual "gate" in the physical sense.
And even IF it was that, it'd not be an object but more an ongoing spell.

[Amphiox]

The rift may be that, but every Gate we've seen so far has been a physical object--it hasn't always been the *same* physical object (e.g. Dorukan used an actual gate, whereas the Azure City one was a sapphire), but it's always been one.

All the gates seen so far have been crystalline. The only real differences have been size and perhaps the type(s) of crystals used.

The Azure City gate was likely not a sapphire, but the same crystalline material of all the other gates, only crafted to look like a sapphire.

[Amphiox]

Perhaps one big clue that the Gate must be nearby, within this pyramid, and the rock is a bluff/double/triple/quadruple/quadratic/imaginary of some kind is the title of the strip.

This is "The Last Room".

[Copperdragon]

This is "The Last Room".

It could also be what any invaders believe to be the last room. Or the Obviously Last Room. Or the Seemingly Last room.

[KillingAScarab]

Glad to come back and find I am not the only one who considered this aspect of #894. I see a lot of thinking along the same lines I had, but then there was this.


Maybe Z was Locating the rock, not the gate, to check if it was real or not.This I had not considered. It goes along well with a spellcaster being too reliant on magic, as Roy hopes in Start of Darkness, especially since Roy just confirmed his suspicions of what was beneath the stone and lead in #895 using his knowledge of architecture. Zz'dtri considers the possibility of the stone concealing something, but only in a magical way; Zz'dtri might be smart enough to cast phantasmal killer, but his knowledge is too specialized.

[Psyren]

Sorry if this was mentioned in the main thread.

Why does Z cast Locate Object?


What does he hope to find? As far as I understand, the Rift/Gate is more akin to a portal or probably a blob of energy, without necessarily being a physical manifestation, so to speak. Imho, it wouldn't be an object any more than a fire or a spark. So it's likely they cannot find it. :smallconfused:

The rift is a portal, but the gate is an object - as we saw most clearly with the Azure City gate, which took the form of a gem. So Z could have thought "gate!" and been notified of one in the vicinity.

It's worth noting that the sapphire is the only gate the LG ever saw (specifically, Nale.) Therefore, Z could also have made the incorrect assumption based on Nale's intel that all the rifts are housed in gems.

[pearl jam]

The rift is a portal, but the gate is an object - as we saw most clearly with the Azure City gate, which took the form of a gem. So Z could have thought "gate!" and been notified of one in the vicinity.

It's worth noting that the sapphire is the only gate the LG ever saw (specifically, Nale.) Therefore, Z could also have made the incorrect assumption based on Nale's intel that all the rifts are housed in gems.

It's been suggested that Nale, who was working for Xykon, and Z, who is working for Nale, likely saw Dorokan's gate off-camera at some point.

[rodneyAnonymous]

What does he hope to find?

I don't know, but whatever it was, he didn't find it, because of the lead sheeting.

[toapat]

All the gates seen so far have been crystalline. The only real differences have been size and perhaps the type(s) of crystals used.

The Azure City gate was likely not a sapphire, but the same crystalline material of all the other gates, only crafted to look like a sapphire.

This is DnD, It is most likely in order of destruction: Actual Topaz, Actual Ruby, Actual Sapphire, Actual Diamond, and Actual Emerald. (we have not yet seen Kurgan's gate, this leaves only 2 options: Emerald or Jet/Onyx, and i doubt it would be a black gate because of difficulty of differentiating the surface)

however, because of the wording of Locate Object, the spell wouldnt even be able to find the gate, unless Z was specifically thinking of the diamond gate of the desert.

[jere7my]

however, because of the wording of Locate Object, the spell wouldnt even be able to find the gate, unless Z was specifically thinking of the diamond gate of the desert.

Locate Object can find general classes of things, like "Find the nearest crystal" or "Find the nearest gem":

"You can search for general items, in which case you locate the nearest one of its kind if more than one is within range."

[toapat]

Locate Object can find general classes of things, like "Find the nearest crystal" or "Find the nearest gem":

"You can search for general items, in which case you locate the nearest one of its kind if more than one is within range."

its technically a unique item however, as well as Z not having a clear image of what it is.

[jere7my]

its technically a unique item however, as well as Z not having a clear image of what it is.

You can't use Locate Object to find a particular crystal, but you can use it to find the nearest crystal. If the gate happens to be the nearest crystal (and isn't blocked by a sheet of lead), then the spell will find it; if it finds a ruby a hundred yards back, they know the gate isn't there (or is blocked by a thin sheet of lead).

Everything larger than a neutron is technically a unique item.

[toapat]

You can't use Locate Object to find a particular crystal, but you can use it to find the nearest crystal. If the gate happens to be the nearest crystal (and isn't blocked by a sheet of lead), then the spell will find it; if it finds a ruby a hundred yards back, they know the gate isn't there (or is blocked by a thin sheet of lead).

Everything larger than a neutron is technically a unique item.

sure, you can use it to find the nearest diamond.

The gate isnt exactly diamond, its Planar Reinforcing Diamond, unique to the gate, and fused with all other parts of the gate.

in other words, still a unique item.

[jere7my]

sure, you can use it to find the nearest diamond.

The gate isnt exactly diamond, its Planar Reinforcing Diamond, unique to the gate, and fused with all other parts of the gate.

in other words, still a unique item.

When the spell says it can't find a unique item, it means you can't say "Find me the Sword of Pathaflax!" and expect it to work, if you've never actually seen the Sword of Pathaflax. You can say "Find me the nearest bladed object over two feet in length!" and, if that happens to be the Sword of Pathaflax, it'll find it, even if it has wacky magical properties and is embedded in its magical scabbard. (More likely, it'll find the rusty sword the orc on the next level down is carrying.)

Similarly, you can use it to find the nearest crystalline mass bigger than your head, whether or not it's magical or special. Since they were standing right next to where they expected the gate to be, the gate probably would've pinged (if it hadn't been coated in lead).

Again, every object is unique. If the spell couldn't find unique objects at all, it'd be useless.

[toapat]

Again, every object is unique. If the spell couldn't find unique objects at all, it'd be useless.

you, however, are ignoring multiple things:

Z does not know any specifics of the physical nature of the gate

The gate is not a Gemstone, it is Planar Fabric Cement. Looking for a gem wouldnt even locate it that way. Just because it was built into a gem doesnt mean that it is still a gem.

Each gate we have seen uses a different material. it is doubtful that Shojo actually described the form/materials of the gates to Nale.

Each gate, due to how they were constructed, is a unique object.

[jere7my]

you, however, are ignoring multiple things:

Z does not know any specifics of the physical nature of the gate

The gate is not a Gemstone, it is Planar Fabric Cement. Looking for a gem wouldnt even locate it that way. Just because it was built into a gem doesnt mean that it is still a gem.

Each gate we have seen uses a different material. it is doubtful that Shojo actually described the form/materials of the gates to Nale.

Each gate, due to how they were constructed, is a unique object.

I'm assuming that Zz'd'tri expects the gate to be some sort of shiny crystalline thing. Regardless of what the gate is actually made of, telling Locate Object to find the nearest shiny crystalline thing would indeed turn up the gate, if the gate was a shiny crystalline thing (and not encased in lead).

Your interpretation of the spell would be much more powerful, because it could be used to determine whether objects were not what they seemed to be. "Find me the nearest ring," under your interpretation, would be able to pick the One Ring out of a lineup, because it would be the only one that the spell couldn't locate. The spell states specifically that it can be fooled by Polymorph Any Object; if something is shaped like X, "Find me X" will ping it, regardless of what it really is or whatever mystical forces it contains.

If Zz'd'tri isn't assuming that the gates are crystals, then he's assuming something else (perhaps "Find the nearest archway"), and used Locate Object to check that assumption instead.

[toapat]

Your interpretation of the spell would be much more powerful, because it could be used to determine whether objects were not what they seemed to be. "Find me the nearest ring," under your interpretation, would be able to pick the One Ring out of a lineup, because it would be the only one that the spell couldn't locate. The spell states specifically that it can be fooled by Polymorph Any Object; if something is shaped like X, "Find me X" will ping it, regardless of what it really is or whatever mystical forces it contains.

The One Ring did not need to be altared into a Planar Abutment in order to serve its purpose. it is mearly a cursed magic item.