Ideas for a dwarven defender

[Samalpetey]

Hello playground, I'm looking for some advice on a dwarven defender for one of my players in my campaign. It's going to be a desert campaign, and the rest of the party is: A Ranger/Scout/Fighter specializing in ranged skirmishing, a warmage/rainbow servant, and a cleric. The only limits on this build is that it has to have dwarven defender levels (I'm letting Heat Endurance qualify for it), and it has to be a actual lockdown-y build with a spiked chain at ECL 10. Any ideas? So far I'm thinking of a fighter/deepwarden/dwarven defender with Thicket of Blades via martial stance, but I'm not too familiar with TOB

[eggynack]

I hate to ask, cause the topic seems to be specifically leading away from this question, but must he be a dwarven defender? It's a seriously terrible prestige class, and it would generally make the character worse at exactly what he's trying to do. We could certainly make a good lockdown build, and dwarven defender can technically be a part of that without ruining everything, but it seems like a sad proposition. In any case, the tripping and lockdown part of the build is sound, so there's always good stuff to do with that. You're going to want knock down, so that a single attack's routine goes hit, trip, hit. Look into some way of getting size increases, and take combat reflexes, so that the character has a crazy area of effect lockdown that applies to everyone. Ultimately, you'd probably just take a regular lockdown tripper build, and make one of the levels dwarven defender for no reason. It just doesn't seem like a good idea, given how terrible that class is.

[Spuddles]

The knockdown feat, in the divine rules section for divine feats on the srd, which first appeared in sword&fist, is amazing. Free trip attempt any time you do 10 or more damage with an attack.

[Spuddles]

Dwarven defender is only a terrible prestige class if every monster you fight gets to look at your character sheet. Otherwise, it's ok for a core prestige class.

[Waker]

The Dwarven Defender suffers from needing to stay in one spot while using their iconic ability. The player may wish to make use of teleportation effects like Anklet of Translocation or dip Wizard to grab the Abrupt Jaunt acf.
Consider changing the Toughness to Improved Toughness for the required feat.
Stand Still from Expanded Psionics is a terribly useful feat for Lockdown Builds.
Consider changing the Trapsense from both PrCs to the Complete Mage ACF to grant AC against magic attacks. Trapsense is worthless.

[eggynack]

Dwarven defender is only a terrible prestige class if every monster you fight gets to look at your character sheet. Otherwise, it's ok for a core prestige class.
Well, it's terrible in the first sense that it has three horrific feat prerequisites. It's also terrible in the second sense that it gets down the "You must defend," part, without really giving you the "You're really good at defending," part. Tripping helps a little, but the class doesn't help you with tripping very much, and the feat tax means that you'll probably be worse at that than a guy who's just a regular fighter, or maybe even a warrior. Like, there's an actual question there of whether it's worth the feats to move from warrior to the strictly superior dwarven defender, and that's probably still true if you've been using fighter up til that point to get a pile of feats.

I don't see a particular reason why a monster wouldn't just take a brief jaunt around you to hit the wizard, even if he has no idea that you're lacking in movement. The class is obviously terrible no matter what, because it just doesn't give you much. If monsters just always run up to the heavily armored fighter for no reason, the class might not fundamentally crippling to everything you do. Also, he's clearly not even in core. He mentioned vague ToB stuff, but he'd obviously be so much better as a crusader 10 that's it's crazy. Seriously though, just go crusader 10 and call yourself a dwarven defender. Those guys can tank like nobody's business.

Edit: Specifically, the comparison is between a fighter 7/dwarven defender 3, and a fighter 7/warrior 3. Just clarifying, cause I dunno if that's clear.

[zlefin]

While I've never gotten to make one myself yet, here's one thing I plan for when I do make a DD:
Get a good ranged plan. The big weakness of DD is the immobility; but if you have a good ranged weapon, even if you're not using an archer focus, then you can still use the defensive stance ability decently. Not moving isn't so much of a penalty for archery, and the defensive bonuses make you more able to resist counterattacks, and if they close to melee, well, you're pretty well set for that too.

[Samalpetey]

I hate to ask, cause the topic seems to be specifically leading away from this question, but must he be a dwarven defender? It's a seriously terrible prestige class, and it would generally make the character worse at exactly what he's trying to do. We could certainly make a good lockdown build, and dwarven defender can technically be a part of that without ruining everything, but it seems like a sad proposition. In any case, the tripping and lockdown part of the build is sound, so there's always good stuff to do with that. You're going to want knock down, so that a single attack's routine goes hit, trip, hit. Look into some way of getting size increases, and take combat reflexes, so that the character has a crazy area of effect lockdown that applies to everyone. Ultimately, you'd probably just take a regular lockdown tripper build, and make one of the levels dwarven defender for no reason. It just doesn't seem like a good idea, given how terrible that class is.

I could probably talk him out of it, and I can adjust the entry requirements (Two things I'm doing is changing toughness to +1 HP/level, like nwn toughness and changing endurance to heat endurance)

[Samalpetey]

The knockdown feat, in the divine rules section for divine feats on the srd, which first appeared in sword&fist, is amazing. Free trip attempt any time you do 10 or more damage with an attack.

Nice, I think I'll use this. With regards to books, just about everything's on the table

[Spuddles]

Nice, I think I'll use this. With regards to books, just about everything's on the table

Technically, Cleave and Improved Trip both proc after a successful knockdown attack. S&F errata says that improved trip shouldnt give you an extra attack after knockdown, but I am not sure if that errata was imported to 3.5. Presumably it is still valid RAW, as no later material contradicts it, if only by omission.

[Samalpetey]

Technically, Cleave and Improved Trip both proc after a successful knockdown attack. S&F errata says that improved trip shouldnt give you an extra attack after knockdown, but I am not sure if that errata was imported to 3.5. Presumably it is still valid RAW, as no later material contradicts it, if only by omission.
I can see that improved trip would work, but why would cleave trigger?

[Spuddles]

I can see that improved trip would work, but why would cleave trigger?

"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach."

[Rubik]

Deepstone sentinel is a 5-level prestige class from Tome of Battle that is what the dwarven defender should've been. It's the PC version of the NPC dwarven defender as the warblade is to the NPC warrior.

Look it up. It's good stuff.

[edit] Also, I'm shocked and appalled. Nobody's said this yet?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, there's Ironsoul Forgemaster from Magic of Incarnum which does an excellent job of being a very Dwarfy Defender type PrC without being afflicted by Suck, and even better can actually make a shield relevant should you ever decide to use it. Also makes you more tanky by giving you more DR/-, and there are some Incarnum Binds which can make you very Tanky (Vitality Belt, Strongheart Vest, Wormtail Belt, Crystal Helm...).

Gaining a size boost would be very important for your build, as it further increases your reach. Large size + Spiked Chain = 20' reach. Either beg Enlarge Person off of one of the casters or dip Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter and pick up Expansion.

I would second Knockdown unless you are already working to Improved Trip. On the whole, Knockdown is a little bit better, however Improved Trip can make it easier to hit opponents that you have difficulty striking.

[Spuddles]

Knockdown requires improved trip....

Psy war is a good recommendation. Psy war2+ practiced manifester gets you huge sized when you have 6 HD. Wont be able to donthat very often, though.

[herrhauptmann]

If doing a two-handed piercing weapon like the spiked chain, particularly with Knockdown in your build, wear the steadfast boots from MiC.

Extra +4 vs trip/overrun. Maybe on more than just those...
And every two-handed piercing weapon you carry is automatically set for a charge. So if someone charges you, you hit them with that set attack as soon as they come in reach. For double damage.
This triggers knockdown.
If they don't get tripped, and you've got more reach than them, they've still got to move to reach you once they're in your range.
This provokes an attack of opportunity. (The set vs charge didn't count as an AOO) No double damage on this one, but you've still got a chance of knocking them down.
Now I disagree with the idea, but if the DM agrees that knockdown/tripping triggers cleave, then you could be getting 4 or more attacks every time you get charged by someone smaller than a giant.

Remember: if get a cleave attempt on your AOO, it only used up one of your AOO attempts for the round.


Ok, so you're going for dwarven defender (for whatever reason).
Have you thought of doing an oddball dwarven defender? Say halfogre human with levels in stoneblessed:dwarf?
There's also a number of 'updates' to the dwarven defender, I think primarily using ToB mechanics. If the DM is allowing you to alter the entry prereqs, would he allow you to use one of those updated versions?

[Juntao112]

While I've never gotten to make one myself yet, here's one thing I plan for when I do make a DD:
Get a good ranged plan. The big weakness of DD is the immobility; but if you have a good ranged weapon, even if you're not using an archer focus, then you can still use the defensive stance ability decently. Not moving isn't so much of a penalty for archery, and the defensive bonuses make you more able to resist counterattacks, and if they close to melee, well, you're pretty well set for that too.

Monk/DD with the Throwing enchantment on his unarmed strikes.

[Rubik]

Monk/DD with the Throwing enchantment on his unarmed strikes.Other than the DD part, that's been my idea for Tippy's trial. It's posted now; check it out! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

You can, perhaps, adapt parts of it for your own use. Obviously not all of it, as it's a bit...high-op. But you can tweak bits of it for your needs.

[Samalpetey]

Okay, I talked with the player today and he still wants dwarven defender levlels

[Killer Angel]

That DD desperately needs some enlarge person.

[eggynack]

Okay, I talked with the player today and he still wants dwarven defender levlels
I suppose that it could basically use my standard melee setup, but geared towards this outcome. The startup is fighter 2/barbarian 2, with wolf totem, spirit lion totem (I don't care that he's not going to be moving sometimes, pounce is still good), and whirling frenzy. The barbarian levels get him free improved trip, and let's just start tossing feats at prerequisites and obvious things. At level 9, you get four feats from levels, and two feats from fighter, so subtract three from the prereqs, and two from EWP: spiked chain and knock down, and you're basically left with combat reflexes. So, that part's done. After that, you have somewhere between three and five levels of not-dwarven defender.

You don't really have any feats left for prerequisites, so I'm going to avoid that unless I find something cool. Anyways, thicket of blades calls out to you in its mightiest voice, so let's toss a crusader dip on there. You need an initiator level of five, so that means eight not-crusader levels before the crusader level. You can go make that an excuse to go fighter 2/barbarian 2/X 4/crusader 1/DD 1, or you can accede to your player's odd desires, and make it a fighter 2/barbarian 2/X 3/DD 1/crusader 1/DD 1. I'm going to stick with the latter set up, so we have three levels remaining. I've never really given much thought to those levels, but there're a few good options. I'm considering something like psychic warrior 2, to get bonus feats, expansion, maybe delay DD a bit towards my first setup with the loss of BAB, and whatever else you want. Slowed access to dwarven defender, and a second system might be a downside though.

That's mostly all I've got. The remaining three to four levels are pretty open, so you can come up with something neat, or someone else might have something to add. You could always toss on a warblade or cleric dip, because those are always neat. They suffer from some of the same basic problems as psychic warrior, but it might be worth considering. Still, I think that the basics are well laid out, and the remnants of the build shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Tripping is one of the better things you can do as a melee guy, so he won't do that badly, even with being a dwarven defender.

[Spuddles]

I would almost go with dungeoncrasher fighter over barbarian. Kinda feat starved, but there is virtually no synergy between the lawful, immobile DD and a raging, pouncing non-lawful barbarian.

Get rid of the DD reqs other than dwarf and lawful, OP. That way those 3 feats dont have to be lit on fire.

Definitely get some thicket of blades in there with crusader levels.

[Samalpetey]

Get rid of the DD reqs other than dwarf and lawful, OP. That way those 3 feats dont have to be lit on fire.

Alright, he's going to be underpowered anyway so I may as well make things better for him

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want a VERY tanky dawarfy dwarf, here is what you do.

Dwarf Incarnate 1 / Dwarf Paragon 3 / Incarnate 1-X / Iron Soul Forgemaster X / Incarnate X

Start with a 16 con before racial modifiers.

Feats
1st - Toughness
3rd - Roll with it
6th - Roll with it
9th - Roll with it
12th - Roll with it
15th - Roll with it
18th - Roll with it

At low levels bind asteral vembrances for DR 4/magic at low levels. It makes you one of the tankiest 1st level characters.

At 3rd level you get a 20 con score and start taking Roll with it in all possible feat slots. Each time it gives you a stacking DR 2/- that stacks WITH ALL FORMS OF DR. At this level you should be rocking DR 6/magic or DR 2/-

Then you go into ironsoul forge master. Get a shield. Now you start piling on the energy resistance.

By 20th level you are basicly ignoring the first 12-25 point of all incoming damage and have tons of cool soulmelds to use for combat.

[Samalpetey]

If you want a VERY tanky dawarfy dwarf, here is what you do.

Dwarf Incarnate 1 / Dwarf Paragon 3 / Incarnate 1-X / Iron Soul Forgemaster X / Incarnate X

Start with a 16 con before racial modifiers.

Feats
1st - Toughness
3rd - Roll with it
6th - Roll with it
9th - Roll with it
12th - Roll with it
15th - Roll with it
18th - Roll with it

At low levels bind asteral vembrances for DR 4/magic at low levels. It makes you one of the tankiest 1st level characters.

At 3rd level you get a 20 con score and start taking Roll with it in all possible feat slots. Each time it gives you a stacking DR 2/- that stacks WITH ALL FORMS OF DR. At this level you should be rocking DR 6/magic or DR 2/-

Then you go into ironsoul forge master. Get a shield. Now you start piling on the energy resistance.

By 20th level you are basicly ignoring the first 12-25 point of all incoming damage and have tons of cool soulmelds to use for combat.

Looks interesting, but no dwarven defender levels and my players don't know about/how to use incarnum

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, and that is because Dwarven Defender is actually a horrid class that, while it makes sense from the standpoint of a dwarf who defends a tunnel, is hard to get to function from an adventuring standpoint. Standing in one place and fighting the thing directly in front of you is not actually that common in most 3.5 games. Things tend to walk around you and eat the wizard.

Instead I gave you a dwarf who is an awesome defender. A "Dwarven" "Defender" as opposed to a "Dwarven Defender"

Incarnum is basically just free magic items you can change out every day (melds are slotless items unless you bind them, then they occupy a slot, you just can't put two slotless items over the same item location) and you get some points you can use to boost one meld or another as a swift action.

[Samalpetey]

Yes, and that is because Dwarven Defender is actually a horrid class that, while it makes sense from the standpoint of a dwarf who defends a tunnel, is hard to get to function from an adventuring standpoint. Standing in one place and fighting the thing directly in front of you is not actually that common in most 3.5 games. Things tend to walk around you and eat the wizard.

Instead I gave you a dwarf who is an awesome defender. A "Dwarven" "Defender" as opposed to a "Dwarven Defender"

Incarnum is basically just free magic items you can change out every day (melds are slotless items unless you bind them, then they occupy a slot, you just can't put two slotless items over the same item location) and you get some points you can use to boost one meld or another as a swift action.

I know the build's good, but I asked the player and he specifically wanted dwarven defender levels. I might be able to get him to play this, but it would involve me explaining incarnum to a new player when I'm not good with it as it is

[Samalpetey]

Okay, I've talked him out of dwarven defender levels. Any ideas for a mundane (Possibly with a bit of TOB) dwarf defender build?

[Fouredged Sword]

Crusader 20.

Warblade 1 / Dwarven paragon 3 / barbarian 1 / Warblade 15

Fighter 1 / Swordsage 19 with heavy armor and an extreme shield. (countercharge for the WIN)

[Waker]

Well, assuming he still wanted to be a Deepwarden (which isn't that bad a class) he could do something like
Ranger 1/Crusader 4/Deepwarden 1/Crusader 1/Deepwarden 3
That way he could get access to 3rd level Crusader techniques, specifically Thicket of Blades. Since you are allowing Endurance/Heat Endurance to be interchangeable, you might point out the Steadfast Determination feat from PHBII, to make him even more Constitution powered. Plus never failing on a 1 for a save is never a bad thing.
My suggested feats would be EWP (Spiked Chain), Endurance, Steadfast Determination and Stand Still. If he has a decent Dex score and perhaps takes a flaw, then maybe Combat Reflexes for extra AoO attempts. Otherwise Power Attack is always a good choice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let him know that Dwarven Defenders are only good in large numbers, fighting in the tunnels of their underground homes. They form an insurmountable wall of dwarves that blocks invaders from advancing any further, and outlast their foes until reinforcements arrive. Too many times a solitary dwarven defender has tried to take on adversaries alone, and his opponents easily rushed past him to murder those he was sworn to protect. For this reason, any dwarf who joins the Order of the Defenders is forbidden to go adventuring without at least three other dwarven defenders accompanying him. Luckily, there are a lot of dwarven defenders in a given community, as any who wish to join the elite Order of the Sentinels and fails their tests goes on to join the Order of the Defenders. The Order of the Sentinels trains its members as Deepstone Sentinels, capable warriors who often go in to become great adventurers. Members of the Order of the Defenders get stuck with menial guard duty until they're too old to fight.

Consider giving him Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), which he bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) for a cost of 3,000 xp. Note the Mineral Warrior pictured is a Barbed Devil, they don't all look like that. Note that multiple instances of damage reduction don't stack, so the DR X/- of Dwarven defender will only apply if opponents can overcome his DR 8/Adamantine.

He can get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd level, and thanks to its 10% xp bonus he'll still be 1,500 xp ahead of the rest of the party starting at 10th level. The item itself should probably be a ring, which he wears under a gauntlet so opponents cannot target it directly. An Item Familiar is an intelligent item, which means it's treated as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. It can start as a Ring of Protection +1 which he paid full price for, and he can upgrade it himself to a Ring of Freedom of Movement with a +1 Deflection bonus to AC (MIC p234) for a cost of 20,000 gp and 1,600 xp, putting him just 100 xp below the rest of the party.

For what classes he takes, Deepwarden from Races of Stone should be at the top of the list, though he probably won't want more than two or four levels in that. I'd have him go Ranger 2/ Warblade 3/ Deepwarden 2/ Warblade 3, and be sure he meets the prerequisites for Deepstone Sentinel at 10th level. After Deepstone Sentinel 5 he should probably go back to taking Warblade, though Bloodstorm Blade and even Master of Nine would be decent choices.

[JaronK]

Since he's insisting on Dwarven Defender, I'd say a simple dwarf with a Dwarven Warpike (note that with Complete Warrior rules he gets free proficiency) and a lot of trip centric abilities is the way to go. Standstill, Hold the Line, and Improved Trip are obvious choices. Also, wear Mechanicus Gear as the armor, since that's a +10 AC and has no real penalties for a dwarf.

Consider also Crusader levels for Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit. And as soon as he's got enough Dwarven Defender levels to feel like he is what he wants, he should jump into Deepstone Sentinel and play the class that replaced the DD.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's an idea for an area-denial tank:

Barbarian1(Pounce variant)1/Fighter(dungeoncrasher/Zhent variants)10/War Mind9

Here's what you get:

* Pounce. So you can close and make a full attack
* Swift-action Intimidate to Demoralize. Combo with Imperious Command for lockdown. Combo with Never Outnumbered skill trickfor area-effect lockdown
* A total of 5 powers up to 4th level on the PsyWar list, and enough PP to make it worth his while. That's 2 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th. That means Expansion, either Vigor or Feedback whichever you prefer, Dimension Swap or Hustle whichever you prefer, Empathic Transfer: Hostile and Dimension Slide.
* Enough feats to get Improved Trip, Knockback, and still have enough for Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack for decent damage output.
* Bonus attack against another opponent within reach whenever he hits an opponent

So what does this mean?

* You jump in, swing your chain around, and everything falls down. Anything not dead from the Shock Trooper charge is prone and about to die.
* If anything tries to close, you knock it down.
* If anything can bypass AoO, you can Intimidate lockdown
* If it hurts you, Empathic Transfer: Hostile to kill it while healing yourself

[eggynack]

I would almost go with dungeoncrasher fighter over barbarian. Kinda feat starved, but there is virtually no synergy between the lawful, immobile DD and a raging, pouncing non-lawful barbarian.
I disagree. Barbarian 2 is nice for a trip build because it's effectively another two level dip in fighter, with a bunch of bonuses on top. Wolf totem means that you effectively get to skip the prerequisites for improved trip, so you're getting two feats out of the deal, and you can skip any investment into intelligence at all. That's pretty sweet. After that, it's all upside. The bonuses from whirling frenzy and defensive stance seem to stack, and the extra attack is always helpful. You can even add in extra rage, so that whirling frenzy can work in most encounters. It's not part of the build I posted, but there's room there at some point. Finally, you get pounce. While it's a bit asynergistic with the dwarven defender's style, pounce is always great. You don't start combat off in the exact position you want to make your stand from, and killing someone on the first round is always great. I also don't see how a bullrush based build is any more synergistic with a still attacker than a pounce based one is. The alignment thing is an issue, but the mechanics of my build are sound.

Anyways, if the player is leaving the dwarven defender behind, I'd just ask him to look at a crusader 10. You could probably put something fancier together, but crusaders are among the best tanks in the game, and they can play the AoO game like noone's business. Just throw improved trip, knock down, EWP: spiked chain, and combat reflexes in as his four feats, and maybe guide him towards solid maneuver choices, and he'll be fine. He'd also be fine if he chose his own feats and maneuvers, because crusaders are cool like that. Those guys make great dwarven defenders, which is why my build had a dip in it. If I were building a tank, that's what I would do.

[Gavinfoxx]

I second Deepstone Sentinel as Dwarven Defender 2.0, The Way It Should Have Been, and Deepwarden. They are both good classes. Also remember Warblade is Fighter 2.0, and Crusader is Paladin (all the alternate alignment versions, too) 2.0.

[eggynack]

I second Deepstone Sentinel as Dwarven Defender 2.0, The Way It Should Have Been, and Deepwarden. They are both good classes. Also remember Warblade is Fighter 2.0, and Crusader is Paladin (all the alternate alignment versions, too) 2.0.
I just took a pretty good look at that class, and it seems rather cool, in the beans category. It's definitely much better than dwarven defender, and the prerequisites are mostly things you'd want to take anyway. The only downsides are BAB related. First off, he gets average BAB from the class, which is a little annoying. Not nearly enough to make it stop being cool, but it's a thing. The second problem, is that he's starting at level 10, so he wouldn't even start out with any levels in the class. That's not a big deal though, cause that just means more crusader or warblade, depending on his mood. Probably crusader, cause those guys tank like nobody's business.

[Saintheart]

"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach."

So you're saying dubstep can trigger a cleave?

[Samalpetey]

Here's an idea for an area-denial tank:

Barbarian1(Pounce variant)1/Fighter(dungeoncrasher/Zhent variants)10/War Mind9

Here's what you get:

* Pounce. So you can close and make a full attack
* Swift-action Intimidate to Demoralize. Combo with Imperious Command for lockdown. Combo with Never Outnumbered skill trickfor area-effect lockdown
* A total of 5 powers up to 4th level on the PsyWar list, and enough PP to make it worth his while. That's 2 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th. That means Expansion, either Vigor or Feedback whichever you prefer, Dimension Swap or Hustle whichever you prefer, Empathic Transfer: Hostile and Dimension Slide.
* Enough feats to get Improved Trip, Knockback, and still have enough for Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack for decent damage output.
* Bonus attack against another opponent within reach whenever he hits an opponent

So what does this mean?

* You jump in, swing your chain around, and everything falls down. Anything not dead from the Shock Trooper charge is prone and about to die.
* If anything tries to close, you knock it down.
* If anything can bypass AoO, you can Intimidate lockdown
* If it hurts you, Empathic Transfer: Hostile to kill it while healing yourself

What's the source for the Zhent fighter?

[eggynack]

What's the source for the Zhent fighter?
Check out the "download now" link on the Champions of Valor web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). There, you shall find your oddly tradeless ACF.

[Samalpetey]

Check out the "download now" link on the Champions of Valor web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). There, you shall find your oddly tradeless ACF.

Thank you, kind sir :biggrin:

[Samalpetey]

For Imperious Command, does anyone have any good ways of getting the cha prerequisite for it, like a dwarf subrace of some kind?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For Imperious Command, does anyone have any good ways of getting the cha prerequisite for it, like a dwarf subrace of some kind?

The Magic-Blooded template from Dragon 306 gives Wis -2, Cha +2, and a few minor spell-like abilities and bonuses to Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft. It replaces Darkvision with Low-Light Vision, +0 LA.

Desert Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertDwarves) gives Dex -2 instead of Cha -2.

Combine those two and you've got Dex -2, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha +2.

[Gavinfoxx]

Gold Dwarf, from... DMG, and I think Races of Faerun and Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting, has no charisma penalty.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0

[Samalpetey]

The Magic-Blooded template from Dragon 306 gives Wis -2, Cha +2, and a few minor spell-like abilities and bonuses to Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft. It replaces Darkvision with Low-Light Vision, +0 LA.

Desert Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertDwarves) gives Dex -2 instead of Cha -2.

Combine those two and you've got Dex -2, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha +2.

Desert Dwarf looks perfect, considering this is a desert campaign. Thanks!