Erudite and Prestige Classes

[Yogibear41]

Does the Erudites "Exception" rule apply to psionic prestige classes that simply add a +1 to your effective psionic casting level aka +1 to your erudite casting level?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

By very strict RaW a psionic prestige class can be seen as 'a different psionic class'. I believe that is a bit harsh so I would rule against that, but I also like to read the 'unique powers per day' in a strict (not RaW) way. So, yes, 11 unique powers per day (not per character level or per power level per day).

In the end the best advice is: Contact your DM and have a good conversation about how you guys think the Erudite works. RaW/RaI debates about this class will last untill eternity.

My take on the Erudite (StP Erudite does not exist in my world):
-Knows 'all' psionic powers by default.
-Is limited to 1 to 11 unique powers per day over his career.
-Can take PrC's freely, it is moot anyway given the above rules.

Edit: My take on the Erudite is far from RaW, but I like it as it gives the Erudite a niche without copying the psion or breaking the game.

[Yogibear41]

There is another way to interpret the number of unique powers per day? How so? I was under the impression it was exactly the way you said, say you have 5 unique powers per day no matter how many spells you had you could cast a maximum of 5 different kinds. What other way is there to interpret this?


As far as spell to power that is what I was going to go for actually, but I wanted to make a gish not a strait caster I think I would end up with 13th level casting by level 20 and only 4th level by level 10 if I go with the build I'm thinking of, still waiting on DM approval for the base race/class I want to use also so there is a chance I'm waisting my time anyway lol.

[Feint's End]

I don't know if you guys mean 1 to 11 unique powers per powerlevel or all together but RAW is pretty clear here and I suppose it's also RAI to rule that way.

ergo you are level 6 for example so you can use 4 unique powers of each 1st, 2nd and 3rd level. To say it in other words all together have a limit of 12 different powers today.

[Yogibear41]

Oh I completely miss read it I thought the number on the table was the total number each day, but instead it is the number of each level, so at level 5 for example instead of 3 powers each day it is 3 level 1s 3 level 2s and 3 level 3s. Thats much better than I thought!

[erikun]

My take on the Erudite (StP Erudite does not exist in my world):
-Knows 'all' psionic powers by default.
-Is limited to 1 to 11 unique powers per day over his career.
-Can take PrC's freely, it is moot anyway given the above rules.
This is how I assume the class works. (Although not all psionic powers - how does that work, being able to access Ardent/PsyWar powers at sometime lower levels?)


There is another way to interpret the number of unique powers per day? How so? I was under the impression it was exactly the way you said, say you have 5 unique powers per day no matter how many spells you had you could cast a maximum of 5 different kinds. What other way is there to interpret this?
One way to interpret it is 5 unique powers per power level per day. That is, 5 unique 1st-level powers, 5 unique 2nd-level powers, 5 unique 3rd-level powers, 5 unique 4th-level powers, and 5 unique 5th-level powers. This is due to some interesting interpretation of the text description and mostly ignoring the table.

There's also the idea that only the first power manifested with the Linked Power metapsionic feat counts towards the unique powers per day, and the second power somehow does not.

:smallyuk: Don't give me that look. I'm just reporting what has been said; I neither made nor promote such ideas.

[Feint's End]

One way to interpret it is 5 unique powers per power level per day. That is, 5 unique 1st-level powers, 5 unique 2nd-level powers, 5 unique 3rd-level powers, 5 unique 4th-level powers, and 5 unique 5th-level powers. This is due to some interesting interpretation of the text description and mostly ignoring the table.

There's also the idea that only the first power manifested with the Linked Power metapsionic feat counts towards the unique powers per day, and the second power somehow does not.

:smallyuk: Don't give me that look. I'm just reporting what has been said; I neither made nor promote such ideas.

That is how unique powers work and not some weird interpretation of the text and ignoring table (even if it would be ... text trumps table).

Complete Psionics page 153
Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his classlevel

The table just indicates how high this number is and not how many unique powers you got all together. I also suppose this is perfectly RAI since the Erudite would otherwise be hardnerfed compared to the psion (except using StP cheese)

I call bollocks on the second part (so I agree with you). You still manifest the second power and therefor it counts against your number of unique powers per day. You just pay the powerpoints round before it goes of and you don't have to spend an action on doing it but it still counts as manifested (read Linked Power description in CP).

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I don't know if you guys mean 1 to 11 unique powers per powerlevel or all together but RAW is pretty clear here and I suppose it's also RAI to rule that way.

ergo you are level 6 for example so you can use 4 unique powers of each 1st, 2nd and 3rd level. To say it in other words all together have a limit of 12 different powers today.

I agree that is RaW, can't really deny that. But I read it as a designer brainfart. More unique powers per day than a wizard or cleric have unique spells per day? For the higher level powers even as much as wizard and cleric combined (4+4+1domain+2x1bonus)? There aren't even enough 9th level powers in CPsi to pull 11 unique powers off....

Add the access to discipline powers to that and I seriously wonder why the psion even exists. With 1-11 unique powers per day, the free psicrystal and the advantage of learning outside the Psion/Wilder list I believe the erudite fits nicely in with the psion and wilder. The RaW reading is just silly in my opinion.


This is how I assume the class works. (Although not all psionic powers - how does that work, being able to access Ardent/PsyWar powers at sometime lower levels?)


To make up for the low amount of unique powers per day I just give them access to all powers. Powers from other classes and disciplines come a level later, and if a power appears on the Psion/Wilder list it uses that power level.

[Feint's End]

I agree that is RaW, can't really deny that. But I read it as a designer brainfart. More unique powers per day than a wizard or cleric have unique spells per day? For the higher level powers even as much as wizard and cleric combined (4+4+1domain+2x1bonus)? There aren't even enough 9th level powers in CPsi to pull 11 unique powers off....

Add the access to discipline powers to that and I seriously wonder why the psion even exists. With 1-11 unique powers per day, the free psicrystal and the advantage of learning outside the Psion/Wilder list I believe the erudite fits nicely in with the psion and wilder. The RaW reading is just silly in my opinion.


To make up for the low amount of unique powers per day I just give them access to all powers. Powers from other classes and disciplines come a level later, and if a power appears on the Psion/Wilder list it uses that power level.

Yeah I agree that the numbers are a bit high though I have to say that it just really kicks in at level 20 where we talking CoD cleric and Incantatrix Wizard. It isn't that good for low-mid op since up to level 10 it is still a setback (I've played Erudite before and eventually you really run out of unique powers at that level)

Limiting to 11 Power over all level and allowing automatic access to all Powers is kinda wonky. See ... everywhere you start limiting things people have to/will eventually optimize to keep on par with everyone else and start overdoing it.

I'd probably talk to my Dm to make a custom list of unique Powers per Level rather than all together (lets just use the Sorceros spell known list?) since both ways to rule it are pretty out of balance in their own way.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Yeah I agree that the numbers are a bit high though I have to say that it just really kicks in at level 20 where we talking CoD cleric and Incantatrix Wizard. It isn't that good for low-mid op since up to level 10 it is still a setback (I've played Erudite before and eventually you really run out of unique powers at that level)

Limiting to 11 Power over all level and allowing automatic access to all Powers is kinda wonky. See ... everywhere you start limiting things people have to/will eventually optimize to keep on par with everyone else and start overdoing it.

I'd probably talk to my Dm to make a custom list of unique Powers per Level rather than all together (lets just use the Sorceros spell known list?) since both ways to rule it are pretty out of balance in their own way.

Aye, working it out with the DM is the best option. I'd personally go for a bit less than sorcerer spells known, because the erudite has the freedom to change that list every day. The class combines the strength of wizards (can change his role every day....better even, he doesn't need to decide in advance) and that of sorcerers (can cast the spells he knows freely, without deciding in advance). The fact that the power list is not as versatile as the arcane spell list tones it down a bit, but this is the pinnacle of casting versatility.

We also have to make sure that there is still a point in playing a psion who has, more or less, an amount of spells known equal to that of a sorcerer. Would 1 unique power per day per class level not already result in a very versatile and very playable class?

[Feint's End]

Aye, working it out with the DM is the best option. I'd personally go for a bit less than sorcerer spells known, because the erudite has the freedom to change that list every day. The class combines the strength of wizards (can change his role every day....better even, he doesn't need to decide in advance) and that of sorcerers (can cast the spells he knows freely, without deciding in advance). The fact that the power list is not as versatile as the arcane spell list tones it down a bit, but this is the pinnacle of casting versatility.

We also have to make sure that there is still a point in playing a psion who has, more or less, an amount of spells known equal to that of a sorcerer. Would 1 unique power per day per class level not already result in a very versatile and very playable class?

1 unique power per day per class level would make the class pretty weak actually. I played an Erudite once by RAW up to Level 11 and I eventually ran out of unique powers. Also there is psychic Chirurgy for Psions don't forget that. Depends on your optimization Level I guess. Hmm I honestly think on the same level of Optimization Erudites are not overpowered using a high list of unique powers per level (assuming of course they still have to know the powers). At low op they will never make a lot out of their versatility and at high op, well, as long as we don't use StP it's still supbar compared to a wizard or maybe even a sorceror (Arcane Order or Incantatrix).

So I personally wouldn't change it as a dm since at the point it becomes really irrelevant how many different powers you manifest other classes have their own goodies. I'd probably limit the list a bit (Maybe use Sorcerorlist and adapt the numbers a bit).

[Psyren]

The most likely intent of the table is total unique powers per day. The editing however is extremely poor, thus leading to the "unique powers per level per day" interpretation. I feel the former is a bit too restrictive (crossing the line from "meaningful limitation" to "unfun") but conversely I feel the latter is too loose - you end up with more powers known than PP to spend on them that way.

My personal solution is to compromise - make it total UPD, but instead of 11 at 20, I give them the Ardent's progression (2 at level 1, then add one each level to a max of 21 at level 20.) I feel that is small enough that the limitation matters, but large enough that the Erudite doesn't become a one-trick pony at low levels.

[Feint's End]

The most likely intent of the table is total unique powers per day. The editing however is extremely poor, thus leading to the "unique powers per level per day" interpretation. I feel the former is a bit too restrictive (crossing the line from "meaningful limitation" to "unfun") but conversely I feel the latter is too loose - you end up with more powers known than PP to spend on them that way.

My personal solution is to compromise - make it total UPD, but instead of 11 at 20, I give them the Ardent's progression (2 at level 1, then add one each level to a max of 21 at level 20.) I feel that is small enough that the limitation matters, but large enough that the Erudite doesn't become a one-trick pony at low levels.

Yeah I agree on that. Especially the "meaningful limitation" to "unfun" part.
21 Powers (with 2 at first level) all together are a good idea ... you got less unique powers than a psion but you have a greater pool of powers so more general versatility.

Gonna add that to my houserule document.