Interesting Factotum Prestige Classes

[VGLordR2]

Hello, everyone! It's been a long time since I last made a post on these forums. I stopped around the time I started college last year. It's good to be back.

Now, down to business. I'm playing a Factotum in my friend's campaign. We just leveled up to level six, and I am really, really not too happy with the dead level that Factotums have. So, I decided that I wanted to take a Prestige Class instead. The problem is, I can't find very many options that I would like to PrC into. Everyone recommends Chameleon (which I honestly don't care for too much) and nothing else. Even the Factotum handbooks don't suggest anything interesting. So, I'm looking for a Prestige Class with most or all of the following features:

-Able to be entered at level six
-Abilities that can be used creatively in a variety of situations
-Abilities that can be used very frequently (I hate 1/day abilities)
-High skill points
-Synergizes well with five levels of Factotum
-Useful for a character who is almost completely based around skills, who is playing in a campaign that mostly takes place on airships

Right now, I'm considering a dip in Mindbender (for Telepathy), or taking all three levels of Uncanny Trickster. I'm not really too intrigued by either of them, so I'd like to see what you guys would recommend. Thanks in advance for any help!

[Waker]

What race/build do you have so far and what are your allowed/disallowed sources?

[VGLordR2]

What race/build do you have so far and what are your allowed/disallowed sources?

Good question. I'm a Human Factotum 5. All first-party books are allowed by default, and I can use any homebrew if the DM approves it.

[Nettlekid]

I highly recommend Mindbender. I played a sneaky trickster Factotum in an evil-ish campaign, and Mindsight meant that no one ever got the jump on us. Another PrC that you can't enter yet but I think is great for Factotums is Exemplar, from CAd. You get high skills, skill bonuses, and the ability to take 10 on a bunch of skills. You basically don't have to roll for anything.

But I also suggest not disregarding the so-called dead levels of Factotum, because that Cunning Surge ability is pretty fantastic.

[A_S]

The Mindbender dip is an excellent idea.
Tome of Battle classes are great to multiclass into later in your career, because of the way IL is handled for multiclass martial adepts. Dipping into Warblade (for Int synergy with Factotum) and/or Swordsage (for more of a skill focus), and then moving on into the ToB PrC of your choice could be a good path for you. Consider Master of Nine, which has heavy feat prerequisites, but is awesome.
I wouldn't stop at Factotum 5 when you're so close to the best break point the class has (Factotum 8). If you do end up going Uncanny Trickster, you could put your two levels of class features toward that, so Factotum 6/Uncanny Trickster 3.
If you want to keep up the focus on skills, consider dipping into either Binder or Incarnate. Both have some abilities available early on that can make you a lot better at using certain skills, and both also get to rearrange their abilities to some extent on a day-to-day basis, which is nice for versatility. Check out their (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0) handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.0) for more advice on that front.
Even if you don't want to go all the way to Chameleon 10, two levels of it gets you the floating feat, which is pretty friggin' awesome, again on the versatility front.

[VGLordR2]

I highly recommend Mindbender. I played a sneaky trickster Factotum in an evil-ish campaign, and Mindsight meant that no one ever got the jump on us. Another PrC that you can't enter yet but I think is great for Factotums is Exemplar, from CAd. You get high skills, skill bonuses, and the ability to take 10 on a bunch of skills. You basically don't have to roll for anything.

But I also suggest not disregarding the so-called dead levels of Factotum, because that Cunning Surge ability is pretty fantastic.

I forgot to mention that, while I will have access to Mindbender, I would rather not take Mindsight, because my DM is fairly new, and I would rather not have him deal with that. For similar reasons, I don't really want to get Cunning Surge. I'm well aware of how amazing it is, but I want to go easy on my poor DM.

Also, Exemplar is a good suggestion. I might consider switching to that later, if I can't find a better Prestige Class.

[Tvtyrant]

Assassin grants you SA, Death attack, poison use and casting. Your int should be high enough for a lot of extra spells, and you eventually get hide in plain sight.

[Emperor Tippy]

Chameleon and Exemplar are the general standbys. Assassin is also a decent pick (although fairly rarely used, Factotum 11/ Assassin 8/ Swordsage 1 is surprisingly potent).


Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Cobra Strike Monk 2/ Psion 1/ Elocater 1/ Shadowdancer 1/ Slayer 3/ Exemplar 1/ Swordsage 2.

Feats: Kung Fu Genius, Spring Attack, Skill Focus (any), Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker, Craven, Font of Inspiration (all other feats).

You manifest as a 4th level Psion (with an ML of 8 if you dump in Practiced Manifester, and thus can use Psychic Chiguery to get up to 4th level powers onto your Powers Known list), unlimited free flight (although at 10 ft. per round), Hide in Plain Sight, and a host of other useful abilities.


---
For your needs, look at Chameleon, Exemplar, and Assassin. They probably work best. Although a one level dip into Mindbender and getting the feat Mindsight is pretty close to standard on a lot of factotum builds.

[Waker]

Good question. I'm a Human Factotum 5. All first-party books are allowed by default, and I can use any homebrew if the DM approves it.

Ok, I can make a few suggestions.

Fatemaker from Planar Handbook can make a decent character. Good skill points, some spell access and several ally buffing abilities. Confidence of the Fated stacks with Cunning Insight so you wouldn't be losing it entirely. It also makes a nice commander-type if that is what your character had going for them.
Master of Masks from Complete Scoundrel has a few nice powers going for it and the entry requirements are easy.
Paragnostic Initiate from Complete Champion gives you some weird knowledge-based abilities, like aiding teammates spellcasting or giving you bonuses on saves.
Squire of Legend from CC gives you some more ally aiding abilities. Requirements are easy for a Factotum to get too.
Spymaster from Complete Adventurer works well with Factotum, since Cunning Insight can basically let you pretend to know what you are doing with just about anything.
Kellus's Alias progresses several Factotum abilities and works very well with a spy-type Factotum.

[Gildedragon]

Swashbuckler 3, not a prc but you get int to damage and other things, there's a list in the link.
As to the continuing in factotum. The dead level isn't that bad. Cunning knowledge depends on your factotum level. You could go into uncanny trickster to skip the bad level.

[Chronos]

Wait, you don't want to play factotum because of the dead levels? What do you usually play, nothing but monks and barbarians? Because those are the only classes that have fewer dead levels than the factotum (and a bunch of the barbarian's levels feature nothing but the nigh-useless Trap Sense).

Actually, it's not even really accurate to speak of the factotum's "dead levels", plural, since they only get one. There aren't any new abilities at level 18, but your arcane dilettante's maximum spell level goes up from 6 to 7 there. 6th is the only real dead level, and even there, you still get a feat and a bump to all of your saves.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum is a 1, 3, 4, 8, 11, or 19 level class.

You should pretty much never have any other number of factotum levels in a build.

----

Oh yeah, Ur-Priest is a decent PrC for Factotums. Factotum 11/ Ur-Priest 9 (well 10 at ECL 21) is good.

Factotum 8/ Domain Wizard 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theuge 9 is also hilariously good if your DM will let you get away with it. Use Precocious Apprentice plus Practiced Spellcaster to qualify for MT and then at level 20 you get 9th level Divine spells, 5th level Arcane spells, and the benefits of Factotum 8.

Spend lots of feats on Font of Inspiration for lots of Cunning Surge.

Of course, Ur-Priest is good with most things.

[SciChronic]

Not a PrC, but you could take Human Paragon.

PrCing out at level 5 is a rather awkward spot to stop taking factotum levels

Warblade is good if you want to be more melee oriented. I suggest talking to your DM about altering the stance progression, or asking for retraining stances to be allowed.

If you want to do magic chameleon is the best place to go for a factotum. you get both arcane and divine magic, and you can get turning allowing for some DMM persist shenanigans.

if you're the skill monkey, just keep powering into factotum tbh.

[Venger]

-Able to be entered at level six
-Abilities that can be used creatively in a variety of situations
-Abilities that can be used very frequently (I hate 1/day abilities)
-High skill points
-Synergizes well with five levels of Factotum
-Useful for a character who is almost completely based around skills, who is playing in a campaign that mostly takes place on airships

Right now, I'm considering a dip in Mindbender (for Telepathy), or taking all three levels of Uncanny Trickster. I'm not really too intrigued by either of them, so I'd like to see what you guys would recommend. Thanks in advance for any help!

I'll second exemplar (take a 1 lvl dip in martial for free SF diplo to get in) or spymaster

your consideration for your noob dm is admirable. I gather this is why you don't want to play chameleon. I figure this will also eliminate ur-priest/nar demonbinder/etc from the running.

you mentioned airships, so if your group isn't particularly high op (which doesn't sound like it's the case) and you can afford to rope cha into the mix (which as a skill-focused factotum may be possible) one of the following might be of interest to you:

dread pirate: somewhat miserable to enter, but you can afford all the class skills (talk to your dm about retraining. if he's open to homebrew, he'll likely be merciful with letting you put ranks in appraise and stuff)

it gives you a variety of neat little abilities for your pirate crew (you can be naughty or nice and get different sets of abilities, so see which is better for you) and the prereq feats can both be emulated using items from the MIC. complete adventurer

windwright captain: on paper, half-elf only, but it's not that important, and your dm will likely understand. all about gallivanting around in your own airship and being awesome. from the eberron explorer's handbook

thunder guide: a very flavorful class that gives you languages, skill bonuses, and various fun little abilities themed around being an explorer. stupid easy to qualify for, and has a cute little ability that says you can give lectures at colleges and be written about favorably in the newspaper. also from eberron explorer's handbook

evangelist: not powerful, but really fun. offers skill mastery with many of the good social skills. ropes cha into the mix and requires an unfortunate feat tax (which can be bought with exemplar's bonus feats, but you're really better off sticking with exemplar) lets you do a fire shield on you and your friends and talk someone into changing alignments. fun in the right kind of game. complete divine

[Gildedragon]

Problem with Human Paragon is that it gives you virtually nothing for your investment. Three levels get you +2 bab, +1 fort and ref, +3 will, a feat and +2 to an ability score; and no useful class features.
Honestly, for that, dipping fighter 1 is more bang for your buck.
If DCS is on the table, taking monk is an amazing 1 level dip.

Exemplar is good but requires 13 ranks. Thus it is normally available only after level 10.

Thunder guide needs BAB +4, thus level 7 for a factotum. But it is a cute little class.

Windwright captain is level 8 to get in

[BowStreetRunner]

Keep in mind that Uncanny Trickster can work wonders with low skill-point classes. If you take a one-level dip in Warlock, for instance, you could pick up two more Warlock levels from UT. This would allow you access to invocations like Beguiling Influence (+6 Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate), Leaps and Bounds (+6 Balance, Jump, Tumble), All-Seeing Eyes (+6 Search, Spot; comprehend languages on writing), Otherworldly Whispers (+6 Knowledge arcana, religion and the planes).

Or any other low-skill point class or PrC with a couple of interesting class features to offer in the first few levels would work with UT as well, since the UT levels give you 8 SP.

[SciChronic]

oh, something about going into ToB classes.

Due to the nature of the power of maneuvers, multiclassing into ToB classes will increase you power for mid-levels, but you end up weaker at later levels.

[Venger]

Problem with Human Paragon is that it gives you virtually nothing for your investment. Three levels get you +2 bab, +1 fort and ref, +3 will, a feat and +2 to an ability score; and no useful class features.
Honestly, for that, dipping fighter 1 is more bang for your buck.
If DCS is on the table, taking monk is an amazing 1 level dip.

Exemplar is good but requires 13 ranks. Thus it is normally available only after level 10.

Thunder guide needs BAB +4, thus level 7 for a factotum. But it is a cute little class.

Windwright captain is level 8 to get in

What is DCS?

i disagree about HP. human paragon is awesome. I've used it in probably half a dozen characters I've built and never regretted it. it's helpful in qualifying for just about anything. any feat and +2 to int (because a factotum needs it most) is great, and unique among classes in such a short time. those things are all class features, so I'm not sure what you're talking about with "no useful class features". adaptive learning can also be used if OP didn't take able learner (which, since he doesn't want to chameleon, and is gonna focus on skillful classes, seems a distinct possibility) so he might snag that to keep underwater basketweaving a class skill for himself if he doesn't end up going exemplar later in his build.

I only mentioned exemplar since it was mentioned earlier on in the thread and OP said he was interested. I've played it before and had fun with it. it's a nice class if your game's not too combat-heavy, which it sounds is the case. since that was on the table, I figured some other classes that weren't enterable straight-away might be valid recommendations.

but you calling me out on not finding things to enter at 6th lvl is valid. that was inconsiderate of me.

enterable at 6:
ardent dilettante (planar handbook): this class screams factotum. 9/10ths casting to advance your arcane dilettante, and all kinds of cool abilities. beware though, in order to keep taking levels in it, you need to "qualify" again at 4, 7, and 10, which may be difficult depending on the rest of your build. one of the only classes (besides factotum, savant, and exemplar) that has all skills as class skills, obviating able learner.

sand shaper (sandstorm) this is one of those oddball classes like mindbender or acolyte of the skin that lets you enter with an arcane caster level even if you don't, per se cast spells. advisable to get some kind of spellcasting chassis first (as the aforementioned assassin since it's so easy to qualify for and a 1 lvl dip never hurts anyone except the person you kill to join the cool kids club) in order to benefit fully from dust magic. staying in gives some free metamagic you may or may not care about and virtual immortality through your desert slumber/desert shroud abilities. a fun flavorful choice that isn't very hard to qualify for

scorpion heritor (sandstorm): the only other class (besides twisted lord, spymaster, and exemplar) I can think of that gives 8 skills/lvl. gives (but does not require) full SA progression, some bonuses to sneak skills and saves, poison, and the ability to turn into a scorpion.

enterable after 6:
exotic weapon master (complete warrior): a 1 lvl dip may be useful if you specialize in archery (as tippy is well known for saying, factota make great archers) the feat tax is easily met if you're the kind of factotum that uses a gnomish quickrazor

crimson scourge (cityscape): an oddball of a class that gives you all kinds of cool bounty-hunting related abilities. notable for making you immune to nonlethal damage at 7, one of only 3 ways i know of to get this as a class feature (bone knight and pale master both do this) which opens up all kinds of interesting doors.

master of many forms (complete adventurer): if you take at least 10 lvls of factotum (or advance its abilities to 10+ via uncanny trickster) then you'll have 4ths as SLAs. talk to your dm if this will enable you to qualify for shapeshifter (oriental adventures) a 1 level dip gives the wild shape you need for MoMF. turn into monsters and be awesome.

twisted lord (shattered gates of slaughtersgarde): a weird and extremely obscure class that's a ton of fun to play. drink magic root beer and become a horrible deformed freak on command. sneak around like a ninja, scare people, and control their bodies like a puppet master. an extremely rare 8 skills/lvl with a pretty gigantic list. super easy to qualify for.

thayan slaver (unapproachable east): what crimson scourge would be without pretending it was morally conflicted. beat people up and sell them into slavery. why you're really here though is the spells. you cast off int, get up to 4ths, and have an amazing list with really good discounts. break will isn't half bad either if you want to wintimidate

ninja spy (oriental adventures): alter self, imp evasion, a bunch of exotic weapon proficiencies, and the ability to jump like a cricket. hips and immunity to poison too.

[Gildedragon]

DCS: Dark Chaos Shuffle.

Human Paragon is an okay choice, but not awesome. It is a good choice if strapped for Int, but overall, for that +2 & Feat I'd rather get a flaw and an LA +1 template on my human. Or template and level in fighter. This gets me there quicker.

Or 3 levels in swashbuckler.

Which, again, is not to say it is a bad choice. It is one I tenuously recommend in my handbook. But there's better stuff. I feel the paragon classes ought to be templates rather than classes; especially with LA buyoff.

Ardent Dilettante looks interesting.
It advancing Arcane Dilettante is uncertain (but boy would it ever make sense). Qualifying for it sempiternally is easy with a short dip in chamaleon.
Feel a cute build coming along

[Venger]

DCS: Dark Chaos Shuffle.

Human Paragon is an okay choice, but not awesome. It is a good choice if strapped for Int, but overall, for that +2 & Feat I'd rather get a flaw and an LA +1 template on my human. Or template and level in fighter. This gets me there quicker.

Or 3 levels in swashbuckler.

Which, again, is not to say it is a bad choice. It is one I tenuously recommend in my handbook. But there's better stuff. I feel the paragon classes ought to be templates rather than classes; especially with LA buyoff.

I see. I've only ever seen it referred to as DCFS: dark chaos feat shuffle.

I do agree more factotum lvls are likely a better choice, but I was talking about HP on an absolute scale.

I wouldn't rather have a +1 la template due to having fewer HD, a lower skillcap, etc.

3 levels in swashbuckler are... a poor investment with a factotum. +int bonus to damage, even if you TWF with finesseable weapons really isn't worth 3 class levels (especially if those levels are in swashbuckler) realistically, it'll only give you a few points a round, and prevents you from THFing. if you're heavily invested in factotum, you likely don't have a reliable source of precision damage.

why do you feel racial paragon classes should be templates? templates vastly weaken a character, and aside from human paragon, the rest aren't strong enough to warrant that kind of nerf to characters who want to take them.

[Gildedragon]

Briefly, for it digresses: "the rest aren't strong enough to warrant that kind of nerf" is the reason. I feel the three levels could be rolled up into LA +1 templates.

As for my liking of swashbuckler; a good feat, a not inconsiderable boost to damage, the bonus to saves is blah, but c'est la.
-shrug- You like human paragon, I like swashbuckler.
On a side note are THF finessable weapons; though if going for finesse, Str likely isn't the strong stat.

[Venger]

Briefly, for it digresses: "the rest aren't strong enough to warrant that kind of nerf" is the reason. I feel the three levels could be rolled up into LA +1 templates.
Oh, I see. I thought you meant that they should be LA 3 templates, which I felt was excessive. human paragon imparting its class features as an LA 1 template (if I'm understanding you correctly) does seem like a better way for one to enjoy its benefits without it taking up so much space in your build. with this being the alternative, I can understand why you dislike people taking it the traditional way.


As for my liking of swashbuckler; a good feat, a not inconsiderable boost to damage, the bonus to saves is blah, but c'est la.
-shrug- You like human paragon, I like swashbuckler.
On a side note are THF finessable weapons; though if going for finesse, Str likely isn't the strong stat.

my love of human paragon is likely due to personal experience. I've competed in 19 different rounds of iron chef, and human paragon has several times aided me in qualifying for some pretty difficult to enter classes. its ability to pick your own class skills, adaptive learning, and bonus feat have really helped me out time and again. it's also 2/3 casting, which depending on your build can be a pretty big deal.

huh?

factota are so versatile, they can specialize in either style of combat depending on the player's preference. what I mean was that if you do in fact go for finesse and prioritize dex over str, it will require a more substantial investment of resources (TWF chain, precision damage, etc) as opposed to THFing, which requires very little other than a positive str mod and power atk. if one wants to finesse with swashbuckler, a daring outlaw would probably be better suited for the job due to the reliable source of precision damage.

so yes, THFing and TWFing are mutually exclusive, and I meant that one precludes the other.

[Harrow]

I suggest a level of Incarnate then going into Umbral Disciple. First two levels give you SA and some minor skill bonuses, but third level gives you permanent concealment and HiPS. And getting that third level of Incarnate, either before or after, is pretty nice to have, even if the expanded capacity doesn't work with Incarnum feats or class features. Incarnate gets access to all sorts of +skill goodies.

[Gildedragon]

Oh gods no! Those classes are so not worth LA+3. At most, and this is pushing it, LA+2. But when one considers things in the LA +1 and LA +2 categories: bonus feat and +2 to an unboosted stat is LA +1 stuff.


Fair enough. One groks what one uses.

Aaaand...
My bad. Brain bleep here. I meant "there are 2H finessable weapons"
As to the rest of that portion. I am in agreement, finesse (and by extension TWF) is indicative of a low str score; conversely 2HF is indicative of a low dex score. But technically 2HTWF are not mutually exclusive; just not very efficient featwise.

[Venger]

I suggest a level of Incarnate then going into Umbral Disciple. First two levels give you SA and some minor skill bonuses, but third level gives you permanent concealment and HiPS. And getting that third level of Incarnate, either before or after, is pretty nice to have, even if the expanded capacity doesn't work with Incarnum feats or class features. Incarnate gets access to all sorts of +skill goodies.

+1 to this. if you've got 90 minutes, shneeky will teach you how to incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723) though, incarnate's best straight. umbral disciple's good for a sneak though if thats how OP built his factotum


Oh gods no! Those classes are so not worth LA+3. At most, and this is pushing it, LA+2. But when one considers things in the LA +1 and LA +2 categories: bonus feat and +2 to an unboosted stat is LA +1 stuff.


Fair enough. One groks what one uses.

Aaaand...
My bad. Brain bleep here. I meant "there are 2H finessable weapons"
As to the rest of that portion. I am in agreement, finesse (and by extension TWF) is indicative of a low str score; conversely 2HF is indicative of a low dex score. But technically 2HTWF are not mutually exclusive; just not very efficient featwise.
gotcha.

ohhhhh. ok that makes more sense. I knew there was a word missing, I just couldn't tell where or which one.

the only one i know is the spiked chain (and it by other names: kusari-gama, etc) but thats true.

ok, while not mutually exclusive you can't efficiently do both well simultaneously

[Gildedragon]

Elven thinblades and courtblades come to the top of my head.