Improving Crit Range

[OMG PONIES]

I'm using a weapon that has a 19-20 crit range. Making it keen yields a 17-20 crit range. Is there anything that will stack with the weapon and property I'm already using to increase it further? I know there are weapons with better ranges, but for flavor reasons I won't be interested in those...just looking to expand the threat range of my weapon.

Also, I was glimpsing a lot of weapon properties and feats that add on rider effects or extra damage only when you critical. With a 17-20 range, would you be scoring crits enough to make these worthwhile? Or would a basic 3/day enhancement that can be activated as I choose see more use?

[7thW1ckedness]

I believe the feat is called "Improved critical range".

Aside from that, not much out there aside from homebrew.

as for effects requiring a crit, That really depends on how often you roll the dice, 17-20 is effectively a 1 in 5 chance of a critical hit, so if you tend to roll less than five attacks in any given game session, the 3/day power isn't too bad, however if you tend to see lots of combat, possibly multiple lengthy combats in a day, then the effect based on the crit can be much more useful.

[Grayson01]

Improved crit doesn't stack with Keen I wish it would had a Keen Rapier once with a Rouge with telling blow used to be a crit daemon! What classes are you I think there might be some PrCs that might stack with Keen. But I would have to look. I am always more partial to not having limited uses per-day but that's just a personal Bieist.

[A.A.King]

I might be wrong but I believe Improved Critical doesn't stack with a Keen weapon. Pretty much all official ways to improve the threat range seem to have the added line: "This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon"

EDIT: One Minute too late to be relevant, oh well

[Phippster]

If you're evil, Disciple of Dispater improves your critical range through its class abilities. It's a 3.0 PrC, but it never got updated so its technically 3.5 legal assuming you qualify. The only other way I know of that stacks with things like Improved Critical or Keen is from the Mercenaries book, which is 3rd party.

[kreenlover]

If you're evil, Disciple of Dispater improves your critical range through its class abilities. It's a 3.0 PrC, but it never got updated so its technically 3.5 legal assuming you qualify. The only other way I know of that stacks with things like Improved Critical or Keen is from the Mercenaries book, which is 3rd party.

This guy is right. disciple of dispater (from BoVD), plus improved critical adds up to a quadruplling of the crit range. for you, thats 13-20. Not bad all around, but I once got a guy where every single hit was an instant critical (although it involved 23 levels, and some dubious shenanigans).

Only other option is ask your dm to reflavour the disciple of dispater. They may allow it to be a good themed guy who gets mastery over iron (the whole shtick of the disciple of dispater) via some god or another. Replace summon demon with summon angel, and you are good to go

[Vaz]

Disciple of Dispater explicitly requires that it stacks with Improved Critical at 8th level, but not keen. Note that the class doesn't not provide it as a bonus feat, and requires that it's an iron or steel weapon (which I'm guessing as a 19-20, it is), so no Heavy Metal/Aurorum/Pandemic Silver etc.

The Weapon Master from OA at 7th level (some fantastic prerequisites as well; Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus and Whirlwind Attack (Which requires Spring Attack but forgot to mention it) gains Improved Critical as a bonus feat (unless he already has it, in which case he gains +2 to the threat range, explicitly applied after any other multipliers.

Evil Human Fighter
- Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (X)

2 Flaws
- Combat Expertise, Power Attack

2nd Level Fighter Bonus
- Mobility

3rd
- Disciple of Darkness

4th Fighter Bonus
- Spring Attack

5th - Any Full BAB class to fit, reach moderate taint
- Whirlwind Attack

6th - Weapon Master 1
- Improved Critical

9 - Weapon Master 4
- ANY Feat

12th - Weapon Master 7
- Any Feat, +2 to critical threat range after Multiplication

13th - Disciple of Dispater 1

15th - DoD 3
- Any Feat

16th - DoD
- Double Threat Range (triple with Improved Critical, then add 2)

18th - DoD 6
- Any Feat

20th - DoD 8
- Triple Threat Range (quadruple with IC, then add 2).

So, Stump Knife (17-20 if you meet a certain prereq, IIRC, or 4, become 16+2 = 18 critical range. On a 1 you miss, on a 2 you hit, on a 3+ you critical.

[The Viscount]

The Streetfighter ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) will increase it by one, but 7 levels of barb is a pretty heavy price.

[Fates]

The only way I can think of that hasn't already mentioned is the barbarian Streetfighter Alternate Class Feature. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) It's really an excellent choice all around- much better than the core barbarian abilities.

EDIT: Bah! Viscount, you sly dog!

[thethird]

AFB but I think there is a prc that does that in OA

[GutterFace]

i know its 3.0 but doesn't Sword and Fist have it printed that the bladed gauntlets have a crit range of 17-20? with Keen or Imp Crit that's a 14-20...a nice 35% crit range on rolls.

if you have twf, well thats money ;)

[Fouredged Sword]

A barbarian 7 / disciple of Dispater X, with improved critical, dual wielding kukri can get something like 4-20 crit range. 18-20 becomes 17-20, and that then multiplies by 4.

Then you take martial study and martial stance for blood in the water and get a stacking +1 to attack and damage with each crit.

Warblade also gets int to confirming criticals, so that works out a a good way to cap off the build.

[BowStreetRunner]

Mythic Exemplar (Sunyartra) at level 2 gets a supernatural ability to increase the critical threat range of one weapon by +1 and it explicitly does stack with other abilities such as keen and improved critical. It takes a swift action to invoke and lasts a number of rounds equal to your Mythic Exemplar level. While you can only use it once per day to begin with, at 4th, 6th and 8th levels you get new abilities that you can also use to activate your 2nd level ability an additional time if you prefer.

[Vortenger]

No love for the psycic weapon's master from the Minds Eye web enhancement from WoTC? Its a 5/10 manifesting, full BAB PRC designed for psychic warriors. It doubles crit range or adds +2 to it if you already have Impr. Crit or Keen. On a 18-20/x2 crit weapon (Jovar is my personal favorite) that gets you down to 13-20. Also has a crit multiplier increase and a built in Kensai-like weapon mechanic. 2d6 dmg, 13-20/x3, anyone? Got a few other goodies, and can still maintain manifesting if used correctly. (I like pairing it with War Mind or Ardent, myeslf) Makes for a wicked Tashalatora monk, too.

[BowStreetRunner]

No love for the psycic weapon's master from the Minds Eye web enhancement from WoTC? Its a 5/10 manifesting, full BAB PRC designed for psychic warriors. It doubles crit range or adds +2 to it if you already have Impr. Crit or Keen. On a 18-20/x2 crit weapon (Jovar is my personal favorite) that gets you down to 13-20. Also has a crit multiplier increase and a built in Kensai-like weapon mechanic. 2d6 dmg, 13-20/x3, anyone? Got a few other goodies, and can still maintain manifesting if used correctly. (I like pairing it with War Mind or Ardent, myeslf) Makes for a wicked Tashalatora monk, too.

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a) looks awesome - particularly since it not only expands the crit range but also increases the crit multiplier. I so want to put this on my current build - a Blood in the Water TWF rapier wielding crit-beast that would make this PrC rock...but my DM doesn't allow web sources, even from WOTC.

[Kuulvheysoon]

No love for the psycic weapon's master from the Minds Eye web enhancement from WoTC? Its a 5/10 manifesting, full BAB PRC designed for psychic warriors. It doubles crit range or adds +2 to it if you already have Impr. Crit or Keen. On a 18-20/x2 crit weapon (Jovar is my personal favorite) that gets you down to 13-20. Also has a crit multiplier increase and a built in Kensai-like weapon mechanic. 2d6 dmg, 13-20/x3, anyone? Got a few other goodies, and can still maintain manifesting if used correctly. (I like pairing it with War Mind or Ardent, myeslf) Makes for a wicked Tashalatora monk, too.

Keep in mind that the Psychic Weapon Master is 3.0e, back when keen weapons stacked with the Improved Critical feat.

And that's a hell of a lot of prerequisite feats. 6!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that the Psychic Weapon Master is 3.0e, back when keen weapons stacked with the Improved Critical feat.

And that's a hell of a lot of prerequisite feats. 6!

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is actually 3.5, and since you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order:
Falchion: 18-20
Psychic Weapon Master 7: 16-20
Improved Critical: 11-20

[mattie_p]

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is actually 3.5, and since you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order:
Falchion: 18-20
Psychic Weapon Master 7: 16-20
Improved Critical: 11-20

I don't think that applies here. There's also the fact that the class feature specifically states if you already have improved critical, then you apply the plus two.

In other words, if you choose not to apply the feat first, you then get the base benefit for that class feature (not the enhanced benefit), meaning you have the feat twice.

If you don't like that, there's PEMDAS.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is actually 3.5, and since you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order:
Falchion: 18-20
Psychic Weapon Master 7: 16-20
Improved Critical: 11-20

My apologies - BowStreetRunner linked to the 3.0e version, and I wasn't aware that it was updated.

Carry on.

[Spuddles]

i know its 3.0 but doesn't Sword and Fist have it printed that the bladed gauntlets have a crit range of 17-20? with Keen or Imp Crit that's a 14-20...a nice 35% crit range on rolls.

if you have twf, well thats money ;)

Errata nerfed it to be as useless as 90% of exotic weapons.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think that applies here. There's also the fact that the class feature specifically states if you already have improved critical, then you apply the plus two.

In other words, if you choose not to apply the feat first, you then get the base benefit for that class feature (not the enhanced benefit), meaning you have the feat twice.

If you don't like that, there's PEMDAS.

You can apply your effects in the most beneficial order, the order in which you gain the sources of those effects is absolutely irrelevant.

Whether or not you possess the Improved Critical feat does not hinge on what order you apply its effect in. You have the feat when you gain PWM 7, and that class feature is locked in at +2 threat range regardless of which order you choose to apply those two effects in.

[BowStreetRunner]

My apologies - BowStreetRunner linked to the 3.0e version, and I wasn't aware that it was updated.

Carry on.

I wasn't aware either...I still want it. :smallsigh:

[TuggyNE]

I'm using a weapon that has a 19-20 crit range. Making it keen yields a 17-20 crit range. Is there anything that will stack with the weapon and property I'm already using to increase it further?

3.5 goes to some lengths to sharply control crit ranges, so there isn't much. 3.0 was a lot sloppier.


If you're evil, Disciple of Dispater improves your critical range through its class abilities. It's a 3.0 PrC, but it never got updated so its technically 3.5 legal assuming you qualify. The only other way I know of that stacks with things like Improved Critical or Keen is from the Mercenaries book, which is 3rd party.

It's 3.5 legal, yes, but unfortunately it assumes the 3.0 regime of crit-range-stacking, so it may or may not really work in 3.5, where it was all tightened up.


If you don't like that, there's PEMDAS.

What does PEMDAS mean?

[nyjastul69]

What does PEMDAS mean?

I had never heard this before reading it here. It's an acronym mnemonic for the order of operations in mathematics. Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction

[TuggyNE]

Mnemonics:
I had never heard this before reading it here. It's an acronym mnemonic for the order of operations in mathematics. Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction

Ah. I prefer just remembering orders of precedence per various programming languages. :smalltongue: It's more accurate* and it's also more immediately useful.

*I remember reading a thread some time ago in Friendly Banter that mentioned the various acronyms used, as well as the problems that come if you think you should do multiplication across the entire equation before division, for example.

[mattie_p]

You can apply your effects in the most beneficial order, the order in which you gain the sources of those effects is absolutely irrelevant.

Whether or not you possess the Improved Critical feat does not hinge on what order you apply its effect in. You have the feat when you gain PWM 7, and that class feature is locked in at +2 threat range regardless of which order you choose to apply those two effects in.

You're missing a component. From the FAQ:


As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature.

I don't see how the special ability can get stipulate any more than if you have the feat, then you get +2.

More off-topic:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/mnemonics.png

[Jigokuro]

On coding:
Mnemonics:

Ah. I prefer just remembering orders of precedence per various programming languages. :smalltongue: It's more accurate* and it's also more immediately useful.

*I remember reading a thread some time ago in Friendly Banter that mentioned the various acronyms used, as well as the problems that come if you think you should do multiplication across the entire equation before division, for example.

I'm a software engineer and work in a variety of different languages; I SPAM parentheses. Literally every step in the OoO gets its own set, because the coded order varies between languages and is just not worth looking up every time.:smallsigh:

On topic: 3.5 offical has extremely few ways to increase crit range. I think that barb ACF is actually the ONLY one. Disciple of Dispater and other 3.0 material that wasn't updated is all covered under the blanket 'work with your DM to update it' rule. Acting as though clearly removed from 3.5 abilities such as heavy crit stacking would be fine with a knowledgeable DM and that the class is fine to op with exactly as is isn't doing newbies any favors to say the least.:smallannoyed:

[BowStreetRunner]

I think that barb ACF is actually the ONLY one.

I am pretty sure that the Psychic Weapon Master Prestige Class (v.3.5) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) has been updated from 3.0 to 3.5. (Else why would they call it v.3.5???)

Mythic Exemplar ((Sunyartra) is from Complete Champion which is an official 3.5 sourcebook.

So your assertion that the barbarian ACF is the ONLY one is probably a bit too strong.

[Platinum Piece]

I believe there is a "mundane" weapon enchantment in one of the Dragon Mags that also increases the crit range by +1.

[Asteron]

My group just rules that they stack... It keeps us from searching for all of these off the wall ways to do it and it isn't especially game-breaking because magic exists. Also, it does kinda break the rule about bonuses from separate sources (we consider the enchantments to be an enhancement bonuses to your crit range and the Imp. Crit feat to be an untyped bonus...)

Also, sometimes melee just needs nice things.

[The Viscount]

Bah! Viscount, you sly dog!

And they called me a fool for taking those ninja levels. May I sig this?