[3.5] What are the best ways to be blind without seeing the problem? NEW QUESTION(S)

[A.A.King]

As the title suggests, I'm looking for the easiest way for a character to be blind yet not have it affect it's combat abilities (casting spells is my main priority). I'm not really looking for racial abilities though, because if as a race you're blind like you just don't care, then it kind of takes away the point.

Basically I'm looking for a way to have a blind man rule the land of his people instead of one-eye, something which isn't possible if all my brothers and sisters can see as well

NEW QUESTIONS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15475128&postcount=37)

[Thorvaldr]

So you're not looking for abilities like Blindsight or Blindsense? You could probably use Arcane Eye and other Divination spells to "see", although it could be pretty difficult to concentrate on the divination spells while casting other spells.

Edit: Although reading the description for Detect Magic, it doesn't seem like you technically need sight for it to work... which at least lets you know where anybody with magic (most mid-high level characters) is. Arcane Sight might be similar... but that could probably be up to interpretation. It does say the effect is similar to Detect Magic.

...You might also be able to finagle Detect Animal?

[A.A.King]

They would work, but only if I could acquire them in a way which isn't racial.

[Fable Wright]

Blindfold of True Darkness, 9000gp, in the Magic Item Compendium, gives you blindsight 60' but takes away your normal vision. Match it with people good at trigonometry to give you coordinates for distant spells, and you're set.

[Nettlekid]

Be a Shadow Sun Ninja and figure out how to plunge the land into total darkness. If you are blind and willfully ignore other senses like Blindsight, then when fighting other creatures who are blinded, you ignore the penalties for being blinded and get a bonus against them. Now, how do you find them...

[A.A.King]

Would that still work on someone who is already blind? Or does it have to take away some sight to be able to give you blindsight?

[Nettlekid]

Assuming you're talking about the blindfold, then yes. It just gives you Blindsight, and says you can't see while wearing it. It's not like "Sacrifice your sight to gain Blindsight" or anything.

[Thorvaldr]

Isn't there a Blindsight spell in on of the Faerun books? And would that work with Permanency?

[A.A.King]

Blindfold would work I guess, but I'd prefer something less obvious to my opponent. Because when you wear a blindfold it's obvious you can't see, it would also hinder Ocular Spell, which is something I would like to use.

[eggynack]

Druids can pull it off at 7th level. Wild shape into a desmodu hunting bat, cast enhance wild shape on yourself, and you have 120 foot blind sight for hours/level. Those're some cool beans right there.

[Fable Wright]

Mindsight from Lords of Madness + Telepathy from Mindbender might work.

[Xervous]

Blindfold would work I guess, but I'd prefer something less obvious to my opponent. Because when you wear a blindfold it's obvious you can't see, it would also hinder Ocular Spell, which is something I would like to use.

Has magical power in eyes, hides it beneath a piece of folded cloth...????

Is this familiar or something?

[Thorvaldr]

Or, if you don't want to do this through magic at all, you can use listen checks.

In general, a listen check at least equal to an invisible creature's Move Silently check reveals its presence. However, a Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature's location.

Since you're blind, you could consider everyone invisible. There are lots of penalties for this... but it works if an item is stolen from you, or if the magic is turned off.

Source: Wizards D&D Glossary (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_invisible&alpha=) - Read down a couple of paragraphs.

[A.A.King]

Has magical power in eyes, hides it beneath a piece of folded cloth...????

Is this familiar or something?

That is a very typical character yes, from many a fairy tale and other fables, but not what I want. Because the moment I'd stop "hiding" my power (which is by removing the blindfold) I can no longer properly aim because the guy is blind with or without magical blindfold.

EDIT: I like the listen thing, would require ways to increase my Listen Checks, but using the flaw system would already give me a bonus to Listen for being blind. But pinpointing does mean it loses its total concealment (and therefor means I lose my 50% chance) right?

[NeoPhoenix0]

The spells Permanency and Darkvision could work. By RAW you do not even need eyes to use the spell Darkvision. You can also use Permanency with Arcane Sight and Detect Magic.

[buttcyst]

or you can combine eye of grummush and legacy weapon guurgal

[Kornaki]

EDIT: I like the listen thing, would require ways to increase my Listen Checks, but using the flaw system would already give me a bonus to Listen for being blind. But pinpointing does mean it loses its total concealment (and therefor means I lose my 50% chance) right?

No, pinpoint just means you know what square they are in. You still have a 50% miss chance.

[ericgrau]

@^ Which is plenty for area spells though. Pick the right spells, like battlefield control spells, and you can have spells that are both powerful and work with only square locations.

By RAI and arguably RAW I don't think darkvision lets you see without eyes. This is more of a case of "N'uh-uh! It doesn't say I can't!" than actual RAW support.

[Thorvaldr]

No, pinpoint just means you know what square they are in. You still have a 50% miss chance.

Yup, so it's not perfect. But, if you're using AoE spells, or Magic Missile... then would it matter? Magic Missile doesn't say you have to "see" the target...

Listen checks are a good backup, but you'll definitely want something else as your main. Listen checks can have so many modifiers against you... distance, obstacles, you being distracted... Move Silent, etc.

[ericgrau]

Yup, so it's not perfect. But, if you're using AoE spells, or Magic Missile... then would it matter? Magic Missile doesn't say you have to "see" the target...

Listen checks are a good backup, but you'll definitely want something else as your main. Listen checks can have so many modifiers against you... distance, obstacles, you being distracted... Move Silent, etc.
Unfortunately you can't use Targetted (with a captial T) spells at range, such as magic missile, without sight:


Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.


Rays, however, don't have a Target line. You can use them with a 50% miss chance on your attack rolls. Still, area spells are best.

[A.A.King]

Does that mean that the only way to remove that pesky 50% miss chance is to get some Blind-sight one way or another?

I remember seeing a way to get something called "Tremorsense", was homebrew though and not sure if there are ways to get it which aren't homebrew but I'd still like to know, would Tremorsense also work to remove the 50% miss chance? Because the 50% miss chance is the thing I want to get rid of most. For all the other things I can get a guide dog or something, but in battle I like to hit as accurately a sighted person would

[ericgrau]

Tremorsense and blindsense are no better than a successful listen check, except of course that you don't need to roll. Yes, you would need blindsight. Or [quickened] true strike overcomes it too. Though I wouldn't waste rounds on it before you can quicken it at level 9.

There's also the epic version of precise shot, but you'd have to be level 21 for that.

[Thorvaldr]

Unfortunately you can't use Targetted (with a captial T) spells at range, such as magic missile, without sight:


Rays, however, don't have a Target line. You can use them with a 50% miss chance on your attack rolls. Still, area spells are best.

Good call! You learn something new everyday... even with a system that's a decade old. :P So here's my follow-up question: if he's blind and uses Detect Magic and finds the magical aura of a character, would that count for Targeting?

[ericgrau]

As far as I can tell arcane sight/detect magic aren't any better (or worse) than listen/___sense either. What's worse with detect magic is that it takes 3 rounds to line up and casting something else makes you lose concentration on the detect magic.

I gtg now but maybe someone knows/remembers/can-check if there's a blindsight spell in spell compendium?

[Thorvaldr]

So I guess for Arcane Sight / Detect Magic... I'd call that DM fiat. Maybe your DM will take a little pity on you? Arcane Sight does say that you know the location of all magical auras. I would assume this means you can pick out specific magic items on a person. If I can tell your ring from your necklace from your sword, I would personally rule that you can Target them. Or at least have a smaller miss-chance.

[A.A.King]

But the text of Arcane Sight also says:
"You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)"

"your sight", which I don't have. The logical conclusion would be that therefor I couldn't use Arcane Sight.

Another Question: If I was blind but had no problem pinpointing, how bad would that 50% miss chance be for spells other then area spells? Because although I prefer fun and semi-original characters (can hardly claim that a blind spellcaster is a totally new idea now can I? :P) I'd still like them to be a valuable asset to a team and I can't help but seem to think that an extra 50% miss chance would mean that I just couldn't be counted upon during battles.

[Thorvaldr]

Even if you have trouble hitting enemies with non AoE spells, you can still easily buff your party, do some battlefield control (you can get the location of the Wall of Fire close enough), and deliver Touch Spells with your familiar who will have no trouble seeing, and of course, cast all of your AoE spells.

[A.A.King]

That's true, I keep forgetting you don't have to blast everyone away even if you can.

I thank everyone for their suggestions and help and I'll have a good think about how to make up for his blindness :)

[Thorvaldr]

It sounds like a fun character concept, and I'd love hearing how it works out if you actually use it!

[Kuulvheysoon]

I gtg now but maybe someone knows/remembers/can-check if there's a blindsight spell in spell compendium?

I'm not sure about SpC, but there's a blindsight in Underdark. 1 minute/level, 30ft blindsight.

Touchsight (XPH) would also be a (higher-level) solution.

[inuyasha]

you cant see the problem, your blind :p
I would ask: how long has your character been blind

because if they were blind for a long time i would say they could have adapted to it, and as for recently blinded...i dont know...be trained by ninjas?

[Oontarg]

If you are a cleric with the Bestial domain (BoVD) you gain scent as its domain power. With two feats from SS, Improved Scent and and Uncanny Scent, you can smell up to 60 ft away( 120 ft if strong scent or downwind ) and can pinpoint a scent within 20ft. Scent is great for track. Also take Blindsight feat from SF for 5 foot blindsight. Blindsight require you to have Blind Fight(being blind you have to have this feat anyway) and Wisdom 19(just start you character of old to gain bonus to Wis). Once you have blindsight you are no longer blind and can move and fight without penalty even though you can't "see". Another great feat to take is Quick Reconnoiter CA. This feat lets you listen as a free action and gives you a plus 2 bonus to Initiative. Being able to listen as a free action(normally standard action) is great if blind.

[A.A.King]

The guy will be born blind, partially because like you say, it makes it easier for them to adapt to it.

Quick Reconnoiter sounds very interesting, but it would require the ruling that, as a blind person who can't make spot checks, I don't have to have the 5 ranks in spot.
I also like this Blind-sight 5-foot radius, it would help a lot with moving a round, but because the fact that I'm already kind of sold on the idea of him being a sorcerer means it will take awhile to get it because of i's pesky +4 BAB requirement.

The scent thing is also something that would work very nicely in a blindbuild, also because a cleric is more focused on melee and would benefit from the re-roll gained from Blind-Fight, but like I said: not really an option for my sorcerer

I did find something else though, the feat Kean-Eared Scout from the Player's Handbook II (page 80). It gives a lot of knowledge bonuses to someone who uses his ears for seeing anyway, gives a +5 bonus on listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures (and when you're blind, everyone is invisible). But the best thing is this:
If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you determine the precise, current position of the creature or object that caused the sound.
Which to me sounds awfully like pinpointing, although it doesn't use the word exactly, and if it does then it lowers the DC for pinpointing by 10. Given the fact that the Alertness Feat is a prerequisite (hopefully my familiars ability also qualifies) which gives a +2 on listen, the fact that the skill itself gives me a +5 and the fact that the flaw also gives a +2 on listen means I have already a +9 without skill ranks. So as long as I keep it max and have a high wisdom, which is also necessary for Blind-sight, then I should even have a chance to pinpoint rogues who maxed Move Silently and everyone else would be like an open audiobook to me.

So, am I right in thinking that "determining the precise current position of an creature" is the same as "pinpointing"?

(Btw: The flaw I'm using for my character is Born Blind because it's effects describe being blind very handily and because I don't think that my DM would mind giving me the described benefits given the fact that overcoming being blind is fun but also really annoying)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blind,_Born_(3.5e_Flaw)

[Just to Browse]

inb4 dndwiki hate

Just a warning about that flaw. The blindsense it grants, and the moderately easy mitigation of blindness, make it really only worth one feat. Just be careful.

[A.A.King]

That's good to know, and your hidden message makes it think I said something potentially disastrous...

But saying "moderately easy" makes me feel like I'm either doing something wrong or just wanting to much. When I thought of the idea I was kind of hoping of a feat which said "Yeah, even though your blind you basically have no trouble aiming" like that Toph girl from Avatar. Most of the time the only thing you notice about her blindness is the fact they forgot to color in her eyes

Right now I'm already at least three feat into being able to pinpoint as good as possible, mostly because I don't want to relay on the blind sense it grants because it's home-brew and I might not get it.

[Firest Kathon]

If Pathfinder material is allowed, an Oracle with the Clouded Vision (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses) curse gets Blindsight at 15th level. Not the best way, seeing as it comes only at a high level, but I wanted to add it for the sake of completeness.

[A.A.King]

Thanks for all the input everyone, I really appreciate it

I've decided to go for something focused on listen. Because of all the ways to pinpoint people while blind, this one said "respectable elder" where as the scent one said "Savage Wild Child". Made me think of a more agile type of character, someone who may have blinded as a child and left for dead, similar to the way Oedipus was mutilated in the hope it would die. Would probably create a very solid build, but not the kind of character I'm after, but I'm drifting of.

So want I want to create now is, like I said, a "Respectable Elder" type of character. Someone who, although he is blind, is more perceptive then his fellow party members. I've given up on perfect blind casting of doom, which might have been too ambitious to begin with anyway, and I've already grown on the idea of him being a passive Leader/Face, supporting by buffing and contributing his wisdom. Right now I have

Desert Dwarf - Middle Aged - Order of Abilities From highest to lowest:
Cha -> Con -> Wis -> Int -> Dex -> Str

Flaw: Born Blind (but as Just to Browse suggested only 1 feat, though I'm considering dumping the given Blind Sense for an extra feat)

Feats
Level 1: Earth Sense (To go with the entire "being more perceptive" idea, and it allows me to confirm that there really is nobody when I don't hear anyone)
Level 1: Blind Fight (Bonus feat from Born Blind)
Level 3: Keen-Eared Scout
Level 6: Quick Reconnoiter
Level 9: Ocular Spell

I've decided against Blind-Sight for now, because I'd rather use a feat to make sure nobody gets into that 5-feet region then use a feat to make sure I hit somebody who is already to close for comfort.

Desert Dwarf because it doesn't have a -2 Charisma and stonecunning doesn't really work if you're blind so I'd rather have +2 Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Knowledge (architecture and engineering). He will be a sorcerer and then take all the racial substitution levels of Dwarf Sorcerer.

So if you have advice on that, suggestions, ideas or think I'm doing something completely wrong and this would never help any party, just say so. I'd rather hear it now then drag the party down. But what I really want help with right now is my Guide Dog.
What are the possibilities of optimizing a War/Riding Dog (whichever is better) in such a way that 1) It's got an as high as possible spot to make up for my lack of sight 2) it can protect me without commands from enemies who get to close or other things I can't see coming (like a falling boulder). In this case being my eyes is more important then killing all who dare defy me. Would I need a high Handle Animal Check myself or could I just have it be trained for me and pay for it and how good could it ever get at being my eyes?

Your continued help is much appreciated :)

[Oontarg]

The idea of having a Gide Dog is great it will really help. As a sorcerer you also get a familiar. I suggest having a Raven because it can speak a language you choose. I recommend a obscure language that only you(and the party) know, so that enemies don't understand it. This Raven can then tell you basically whats going on(remember its still an animal).

If the party is not a very stealthy party, ask them to wear bells(or something that creates sound) on their person. That way you are always aware of were they are. When you cast spells that affect an area you will not kill them if its a damaging spell and can then buff them because you know where they are. You should also put a bell on the Gide Dog and Raven. If you have read The Dark Elf Trilogy's third book Sojourn, by R.A. Salvatore you will remember the blind ranger that teaches Drizzt. He use an owl with a bell that flies over enemies and once over them rings its bell. Do this with your Raven to find out were enemies are. I recommend that the bells make different sounds so you know who has the bell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The feat Scorpion's Sense (Sand) gives you 10ft tremorsense, if that helps (extends to 20ft if you're in an area of loose soil).