Worst 200,000gp longsword?

[sonofzeal]

Simple challenge: create the worst longsword you can out of legal weapon enchantment. Why a longsword? Just so it doesn't turn into an argument about whether Clubs are worse than Sais or Gauntlets. This is just about reverse-optimizing enchantments.


My submission:
+1 Vorpal Gnollbane Gnomebane Airbane Plantbane Longsword

[Saph]

My submission:
+1 Vorpal Gnollbane Gnomebane Airbane Plantbane Longsword

And then the DM sends you up against the Fortress Of Air Gnomes And Their Gnoll Servants Who Are Only Vulnerable To Decapitation. :smalltongue:

[Svata]

Just off the top of my head?
+1 Vorpal Harmonizing Sundering Merciful Ki Focus Longsword

[Roog]

+1 Allying Benevolent Cunning Thrown Repositioning Bloodfeeding Sacrificial-Smiting Longsword

[TuggyNE]

+1 psychic* longsword with Spellblade × 20, keyed to various obscure and pointless spells. (Will fill out in a bit once I've figured out the worst ones.) The remaining 3000gp I'm not sure what to do with.

*For, of course, a non-psionic character.

[Rhynn]

Everyone seems to be going for +1... I'd think +5 would be a sure start for a useless longsword, given that any bonus above +1 is worthless and a waste of GP; not only is it weak, it's easily replicated by greater magic weapon.

So +5 vorpal longsword. Poor ability, no utility, too much enhancement bonus. Not even situationally useful, unlike situationalbanes.

[Lord Vukodlak]

+1 Vorpal halflingbane, Gnomebane, verminbane, ki focus.

How often do you fight halflings? really or gnomes? Aside from crazy-evil campaigns where you slaughter whole villages. Vermin are rather weak and the strongest of them come in swarms that are immune to weapon damage anyway.

[Rubik]

Everyone seems to be going for +1... I'd think +5 would be a sure start for a useless longsword, given that any bonus above +1 is worthless and a waste of GP; not only is it weak, it's easily replicated by greater magic weapon.

So +5 vorpal longsword. Poor ability, no utility, too much enhancement bonus. Not even situationally useful, unlike situationalbanes.Make it a +1 keen vorpal merciful bane (construct) bane (undead) longsword for mine. Constructs and undead are completely immune to the extra damage from the sword.

That, and I'm fairly sure it's logically impossible to cut anything's head off via nonlethal damage since you literally can't kill anyone or anything with it.

[Svata]

But the merciful quality can be suppressed, negating the extra 1d6, but making it lethal again.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Everyone seems to be going for +1... I'd think +5 would be a sure start for a useless longsword, given that any bonus above +1 is worthless and a waste of GP; not only is it weak, it's easily replicated by greater magic weapon.

So +5 vorpal longsword. Poor ability, no utility, too much enhancement bonus. Not even situationally useful, unlike situationalbanes.
As was pointed out in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288667), Power attack users often find great benefit out of the bonus to hit. An extra +4 to hit can easily equal +8 to damage. And +5 to hit and damage is always useful while situational bonus are only useful in certain situations.


Add in merciful for the +1 you're missing. I'm fairly sure it's logically impossible to cut someone's head off via nonlethal damage
By RAW a merciful vorpal weapon can still decapitate people and RAW is the only thing we care about.
Also vorpal is a +5 ability so he isn't missing anything.

[Rhynn]

Everyone seems to be going for +1... I'd think +5 would be a sure start for a useless longsword, given that any bonus above +1 is worthless and a waste of GP; not only is it weak, it's easily replicated by greater magic weapon.

So +5 vorpal longsword. Poor ability, no utility, too much enhancement bonus. Not even situationally useful, unlike situationalbanes.

Follow-up:

A +1 vorpal longsword costs 72,315 gp. A +5 vorpal longsword costs 200,315 gp. That's +4 to attacks and damage bought at 32,000 gp per plus.

I did think of +4 merciful vorpal longsword, too, but a merciful weapon is situationally useful if you need to deal nonlethal damage... I think an extra +1 is even more useless.

Although the price difference between a +1 merciful vorpal longsword and a +4 merciful vorpal longsword is 102,000 gp, so you're paying 34,000 gp per plus of enhancement bonus.

[Rubik]

What about a +1 holy unholy axiomatic anarchic ki focus one? Monks are non-proficient, and everyone's going to be taking negative levels for wielding it.

[edit] Add in the -2 cursed sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#swordCursed) thing where you can't get rid of it for an extra 1.5k.

[Rhynn]

As was pointed out in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288667), Power attack users often find great benefit out of the bonus to hit. An extra +4 to hit can easily equal +8 to damage. And +5 to hit and damage is always useful while situational bonus are only useful in certain situations.

Yup, but the bigger point is that it's effortlessly and close to costlessly replicated by greater magic weapon.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Follow-up:

A +1 vorpal longsword costs 72,315 gp. A +5 vorpal longsword costs 200,315 gp. That's +4 to attacks and damage bought at 32,000 gp per plus.

I did think of +4 merciful vorpal longsword, too, but a merciful weapon is situationally useful if you need to deal nonlethal damage... I think an extra +1 is even more useless.

Although the price difference between a +1 merciful vorpal longsword and a +4 merciful vorpal longsword is 102,000 gp, so you're paying 34,000 gp per plus of enhancement bonus.

The problem is that +5 to hit and damage is always useful while our situational bonuses come up in only the most unusual of circumstances. Thus you've designed the least useless 200,000gp weapon.


Yup, but the bigger point is that it's effortlessly and close to costlessly replicated by greater magic weapon.

Doesn't matter most any "useless" weapon can be improved via spells. Fires of purity, the disrupting weapon(spell) the list goes on. If we count the fact that someone can cast spells on the weapon the exercise is rather pointless.

[Saph]

Yup, but the bigger point is that it's effortlessly and close to costlessly replicated by greater magic weapon.

But you're not always going to have someone on hand to cast that spell for you (or you might just have gotten dispelled) and for those situations a +5 vorpal longsword is actually a pretty good weapon.

I think tuggyne is the winner so far. (Though I do like the all-alignments sword of contradicting itself.)

[Erik Vale]

What about a +1 holy unholy axiomatic anarchic ki focus one? Monks are non-proficient, and everyone's going to be taking negative levels fro wielding it.

[edit] Add in the cursed sword thing where you can't get rid of it for an extra 17.5k.

So find a way to remove the curse long enough for you to give it to another, then laugh as they accept it and die [or become weak enough to kill].

Or leave it on the road for travellers, then kill them after they pick it up. Clean the bodies, leave the sword were it fell. Repeat.

[GreenSerpent]

Perhaps something like...

+1 Merciful Wounding Brilliant Energy Construct Bane Undead Bane Longsword

Undead and Constructs are completely immune to brilliant energy weapons, Wounding weapons, and nonlethal damage.

[eggynack]

Perhaps something like...

+4 Brilliant Energy Construct Bane Undead Bane Longsword

Undead and Constructs are completely immune to brilliant energy weapons.
It's a nice thought, but the brilliant energy part and the +4 part seem to make it a reasonably viable weapon. The banes are obviously a waste, but that doesn't seem like enough to warrant worst status.

[GreenSerpent]

It's a nice thought, but the brilliant energy part and the +4 part seem to make it a reasonably viable weapon. The banes are obviously a waste, but that doesn't seem like enough to warrant worst status.

Updated it.

[Der_DWSage]

True, but it's still a Brilliant Energy weapon, which is fairly useful. Overpriced by a +2, but fairly useful.

I think I'd prefer...let's see. A +1 Flaming Burst, Keen, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst, Thundering, Defending longsword that's been Cursed to never get a critical hit.

Behold-a 200,000 GP +1 Defending Longsword that you can't crit with.

[eggynack]

Updated it.
That's definitely closer to horrible, because you got rid of the power of generic enhancement bonuses. Still, I can't help but feel like brilliant energy is halfway useful. Maybe if you replaced that with vorpal, and got rid of one of the other +1's, you'd have something neat. I mean, vorpal doesn't hurt undead either, so you've still got the component of asynergy. I'd probably get rid of one of the banes, though the other two you added seem ripe for destruction.

[Svata]

I think I'd prefer...let's see. A +1 Flaming Burst, Keen, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst, Thundering, Defending longsword that's been Cursed to never get a critical hit.

Behold-a 200,000 GP +1 Defending Longsword that you can't crit with.



Drop defending, pick up Heavenly Burst. There ya go, a 200,000 gp +1 longsword.

[eggynack]

True, but it's still a Brilliant Energy weapon, which is fairly useful. Overpriced by a +2, but fairly useful.

I think I'd prefer...let's see. A +1 Flaming Burst, Keen, Shocking Burst, Acidic Burst, Thundering, Defending longsword that's been Cursed to never get a critical hit.

Behold-a 200,000 GP +1 Defending Longsword that you can't crit with.
I dunno if curses are fair game, but even if they are, you've still got a +1 flaming, shock, acidic, defending longsword. It's only the bonus critical effects that you're mitigating.

[Der_DWSage]

So it is. (I've always ignored those particular bonuses, because 'activates on crit' is usually a rather horrible way of going about things, and overlooked that they also function as their lesser selves.)

Give me a little bit of time to find some truly horrible bonuses.

[GreenSerpent]

That's definitely closer to horrible, because you got rid of the power of generic enhancement bonuses. Still, I can't help but feel like brilliant energy is halfway useful. Maybe if you replaced that with vorpal, and got rid of one of the other +1's, you'd have something neat. I mean, vorpal doesn't hurt undead either, so you've still got the component of asynergy. I'd probably get rid of one of the banes, though the other two you added seem ripe for destruction.

+1 Merciful Vampiric Wounding Mindcrusher Necrotic Focus Longsword.

Deals nonlethal damage, 1 CON damage, drains 1d6 HP from living creatures, deals WIS damage to nonpsionic creatures and can deal ability or energy drain if you have a natural ability to do so.

AKA "sword of doing many things undead are immune to"

[Pilo]

+1 holy axiomatic intelligent Longsword with a CE personnality (Ego: 34)
Int:10 Wis:19 Cha:19

10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Anauroch)
10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Chult)
10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Cold lands)
10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Savage Frontier)
Item can use detect thoughts at will
Item has continuous detect scrying effect
Item can use rusting grasp as touch attack
Special purpose: Bring and protect the Tarrasque
Special: Ornated with a ruby which cost 4700 gp.

Personnality : refuse to help his wielder except if he try to follow the purpose of the sword.

[eggynack]

+1 Merciful Vampiric Wounding Mindcrusher Necrotic Focus Longsword.

Deals nonlethal damage, 1 CON damage, drains 1d6 HP from living creatures, deals WIS damage to nonpsionic creatures and can deal ability or energy drain if you have a natural ability to do so.

AKA "sword of doing many things undead are immune to"
I like necrotic focus a lot for this, because it's trivial to make completely useless, but the overall challenge certainly isn't, "make the worst 200,000 GP longsword for fighting in Ravenloft." Unless you can come up with a way to make this sword unable to hit living creatures, these enhancements are still going to be at their ordinary level of usefulness most of the time.

[GreenSerpent]

I like necrotic focus a lot for this, because it's trivial to make completely useless, but the overall challenge certainly isn't, "make the worst 200,000 GP longsword for fighting in ravenloft." Unless you can come up with a way to make this sword unable to hit living creatures, these enhancements are still going to be at their ordinary level of usefulness most of the time.

+1 Necrotic Focus Resounding Maiming Sundering Sweeping Knockback Mighty Smiting Longsword.

Bonuses:

Channelling ability drain/energy drain.
+1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear for 1 round on hit.
+1d6 damage on critical hit.
Allows use of Improved Sunder and deals +1d6 damage when Sundering.
+2 competance bonus on STR checks to Trip.
3/day on hit DC 19 FORT save or be pushed back 5 feet, only works on creatures your size or smaller.
+2 bonus on smite attack and damage rolls, 1 more smite each day.


I call it "The Sword with the Needlessly Long Name".

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about a +1 holy unholy axiomatic anarchic ki focus one? Monks are non-proficient, and everyone's going to be taking negative levels for wielding it.

[edit] Add in the cursed sword thing where you can't get rid of it for an extra 17.5k.


So find a way to remove the curse long enough for you to give it to another, then laugh as they accept it and die [or become weak enough to kill].

Or leave it on the road for travellers, then kill them after they pick it up. Clean the bodies, leave the sword were it fell. Repeat.

Yeah..... except anyone who's true-neutral can use it just fine and wail on anyone of an extreme alignment.

Bonus points: if a chain devil, for example, disarms him all he's got to do is try to draw an arrow to use as an improvised weapon and POP! curse kicks in and his "screw extremism" sword is back in hand. (If I'm thinking of the right curse.)

[GreenETC]

A Colossal Cold Iron +1 Illuminating Throwing Illithidwrought Drowcraft Longsword.

A Giant Longsword that is constantly glowing while being best used in the Underdark by creatures far too big to fit inside the caves, and it vaporizes out in the sun. But at least you can throw it.

Cold Iron still sucks though.

[eggynack]

Yeah..... except anyone who's true-neutral can use it just fine and wail on anyone of an extreme alignment.

This and GreenSerpent's posts actually raise some good questions. Are we making a sword that's horrible, and then designing the character who could best use that sword, or are we just assuming that the character is approximately average, and is thus a bit unlikely to be true neutral? I think that the former case makes more sense, so things like necrotic focus might not be as good for this as I thought, as long as there's a good way to make use of it out there.

[GreenETC]

This and GreenSerpent's posts actually raise some good questions. Are we making a sword that's horrible, and then designing the character who could best use that sword, or are we just assuming that the character is approximately average, and is thus a bit unlikely to be true neutral? I think that the former case makes more sense, so things like necrotic focus might not be as good for this as I thought, as long as there's a good way to make use of it out there.
I think we should go for the niche case. We want the single most worthless sword ever, so obviously we need to make it completely useless to everybody. I still think Cold Iron like mine is the best place, since it doubles costs, letting us get even less benefits.

[Xervous]

I think we should go for the niche case. We want the single most worthless sword ever, so obviously we need to make it completely useless to everybody. I still think Cold Iron like mine is the best place, since it doubles costs, letting us get even less benefits.

Cold iron only doubles the base cost of the weapon and adds 2k per enchantment

[GreenETC]

Cold iron only doubles the base cost of the weapon and adds 2k per enchantment
Woops, nevermind then.

[nedz]

What about a +1 holy unholy axiomatic anarchic ki focus one? Monks are non-proficient, and everyone's going to be taking negative levels for wielding it.

Unless you're an Elven Monk. There's even a feat which allows you to flurry with it.

A normal longsword enchanted with a Nystul's Magic Aura — which you paid 200,000 gp for.

This one's listed as a Greatsword, but I'm sure that's just fluff.
Sword, berserking with Brilliant Energy, Speed, Keen, Flaming Shock
The secondary enchantments are moot, only there's supposed to be useful.
Like frenzied berserker but without the will save.

[sonofzeal]

I think we should go for the niche case. We want the single most worthless sword ever, so obviously we need to make it completely useless to everybody. I still think Cold Iron like mine is the best place, since it doubles costs, letting us get even less benefits.
^ this. A balance has to be struck between "least powerful on average", "fewest niche uses", and "least useful even in niche cases".

[GreenSerpent]

I'd say my latest suggestion is pretty terrible.

[Green Leviathan]

Don't know what else would go with this, but Duststorm form Sandstorm book is a +3 modifier to use a 3rd lvl spell useable 3/day activated as a full-round action that provokes AoO's.:smalleek:

[Der_DWSage]

Alright...let's try this again.

1)One could argue that a Blue Ice Longsword with the Flaming enchantment would melt after a certain number of uses, so a +8 Flaming Burst would destroy itself after a while. Not technically legal, but fun to think about.

2)For the 'useless without a critical hit' weapon, let's go for a +1 Bodyfeeder Cursespewing Doom Burst Heavenly Burst Longsword. (Magic Item Compendium for all of these.)

3)For a 'this is useless by the time you'd afford it' weapon, how about a +1 Knockback Mindcrusher Paralyzing Resounding Dislocator Dispelling Domineering weapon, for ALL the low DCs?

4)A perfectly mundane Longsword that's had a handful of Permanencied Magic Mouths cast on it, so it shouts insults at your opponents while you swing it. 10 gold for each Magic Mouth, and then a boatload for the Permanency that I don't feel like figuring out.

[TypoNinja]

Everyone seems to be going for +1... I'd think +5 would be a sure start for a useless longsword, given that any bonus above +1 is worthless and a waste of GP; not only is it weak, it's easily replicated by greater magic weapon.

So +5 vorpal longsword. Poor ability, no utility, too much enhancement bonus. Not even situationally useful, unlike situationalbanes.

Actually you want to keep it +1, weapon augment crystals require either Masterwork, +1 or +3 for least lesser and greater, so being +3 or greater gives the weapon more utility value.

Sundering and brilliant energy seems like a good combo of useless. +1 Brilliant Energy, Sundering, construct bane, undead bane, vorpal. Brilliant energy makes the sundering and bane useless, and vorpal is terrible for your money. so even agaisnt things that brilliant energy works on its still just a +1 vorpal long sword.

Might be able to swap out vorpal for other things more useless, but not sure.

[Der_DWSage]

Yeah, but I'd argue that being able to use your weapon to make touch attacks is good enough to counter most of those things. Brilliant Energy is one of the few bonuses that I feel lives up to deserving a +4 bonus, even if it can't affect objects.

Now if you make a Brilliant Energy weapon that can't hurt living creatures, THEN you have my attention.

[Roguenewb]

I think the all low save-DC weapon given earlier probably takes the cake among actual functional weapons.

[sonofzeal]

I think the all low save-DC weapon given earlier probably takes the cake among actual functional weapons.
I don't know... stack up seven of those, then full attack for four hits... that's up to 28 saves, and a 76% chance that they'll fail at least one even if they succeed on 1's. On a character whose offence doesn't really depend on a particularly awesome weapon, which kind of has to be assumed here, that's actually not half bad. Probably not worse than my all-sorts-of-useless-banes sword, which functions as a +1 bane sword against a tiny fraction of the monsters out there and a mere +1 sword against the vast majority.


The "Magic Mouth" one probably wins, technically, although I was kind of hoping for something that actually used the weapon enhancement system. "Cursed to never crit" has potential, but I don't know of any RAW way to put that on a weapon. Not that there isn't one, but I'd want a source cited or we could just go with "XYZ sword cursed never to hit".

[Zubrowka74]

My first reflex was something like "+1 Keen Vorpal Oozebane" but that's been somehow covered with other stuff.

I'm AFB at the moment but what's the cost for intelligence ? An intelligent sword that's only intelligent enough to communication via empathy is pretty useless if it doesnt have any other powers.

[sonofzeal]

My first reflex was something like "+1 Keen Vorpal Oozebane" but that's been somehow covered with other stuff.
It's not even that bad. "Keen" is useful against most stuff, "Vorpal" is useful against a lot of stuff, and "oozebane" is useful against... well, a few things at least. You don't get to apply all three at the same time, but each applies separately to different things. When you're attacking humans you've still got a +1 Keen Vorpal longsword, y'know? And there's worse things you could have.

Basically - the uselessness of the sword is limited by its most useful component. Keen is entirely decent (if easy to replicate elsewhere), so you're better off with something else.

[Negher]

My idea (PF rules):

+1 seaborn,phase locking, defending, defiant, huntsman, guardian, throwing longsword.

200K gp that you can use to hunts an enemy, find him (in water if it's necessary, but remember that you have a swim bonus but not waterbreathing!!), throw your sword on his face, block him in the material plane (so you are sure that he can't escape) and wait until he kills you now that you are without your weapon and its defensive abilities.
If you are intelligent enough to keep the sword in your hand you can use its brutal damage and attack bonus (+1) or become an indistructible defending machine increasing your AC or (note, OR not AND) saving throws by 1.
Power in your hands!!!

[Telonius]

Cursed +1 Holy (+2) Heavenly Burst (+1) Keen (+1) Vorpal (+5). Two curses: Drawback (Alignment changes to any Evil), Opposite Intended Effect (attacks target self instead of enemy).

[nedz]

There are a number of contradictory conditions you can apply with curses.

Examples:

<+ whatever>
Intermittent Functioning: In the hands of a Spellcaster
Drawback: Character cannot cast any spells

+1 Flaming Burst, Bane (outsiders, air), Bane (outsiders, fire), Shocking Burst, Mighty Cleaving
Intermittent Functioning: Underwater

<+ whatever>
Intelligent Item ... Special Purpose: Defeat/Slay Elves
Drawback: Character is polymorphed into an Elf

[Der_DWSage]

Hold on a moment. Lemme go into more detail on this low DC weapon of mine, since I was too lazy to the first time. One of the big things that knocks down its usefulness is the fact that they're stupid, stupid uses per day.


3)For a 'this is useless by the time you'd afford it' weapon, how about a +1 Knockback Mindcrusher Paralyzing Resounding Dislocator Dispelling Domineering weapon, for ALL the low DCs?

Knockback:3/day, DC 19 Fort save or be pushed back 5 feet.

Mindcrusher:Psionic creatures will lose 1d8/2 PP on hit. Otherwise, DC 17 Will save or 1 wisdom damage. (Keeping in mind that most things by this point will make the save even on a 1, or are immune to wisdom damage.)

Paralyzing:1/day DC 17 Will save or be paralyzed.

Resounding:This one made me giggle on its own merits. When you hit a foe, you gain a +1 morale (IE, nonstacking) bonus vs. Fear effects for one round.

Dislocator:3/day, DC 17 will save or be teleported 10 feet.

Dispelling:3/day CL 5 Dispel Magic on hit.

Domineering:DC 16 will save or be Shaken. Does not stack with itself or other fear effects. At this level, Shaken doesn't do much at all.

So once you take out the effects per day, you have a weapon that gives +1 vs. Fear if you successfully hit someone with it, can make people shaken (Maybe) and do Wisdom damage (Maybe.)

So...the Domineering effect is still potentially useful, even if it is a bit of a corner case. Perhaps it should be replaced with Paralytic Burst. (On a confirmed critical, even if immune, DC 17 will save to not be paralyzed...for one round.)

[koboldish]

A normal longsword enchanted with a Nystul's Magic Aura — which you paid 200,000 gp for.

Awww.... Swordsaged :smallsmile:

[Talderas]

+1 Merciful (+1) Mighty Cleaving (+1) Ki Focus (+1) Sundering (+1) Throwing (+1) Keeper's Fang (+4)

Merciful - All damage is non-lethal.
Might Cleaving - You get an extra cleave each round if you have cleave. So useless to anyone without cleave. If you do have cleave then Merciful makes this very unlikely to trigger.
Ki Focus - Useless to anyone who isn't a monk and a monk takes a -4 non-proficiency penalty when using it and also cannot use flurry with it.
Sundering - Merciful pretty much negates this since objects ignore non-lethal damage.
Throwing - Throw away your longsword. Not having your weapon does make it pretty useless.
Keeper's Fang - Requires a killing blow to activate to trap the soul. Once again, Merciful helps negate it.

The uselessness of the weapon is, of course, dependent on having Merciful active.

[Vknight]

Masterwork Longsword from ancient legends worth 200,000gp.

If you mean by the rules hmmm.

I'd say probably a mix of all of the following.

Take the various Bursts along with merciful, dispelling, and resounding.

The sword on a rare crit does small amounts of elemental damage.
It also only does non-lethal, and tries to dispel as CL 5 caster which is useless against most things, resoundings tiny benefit is pointless

So on the rare fight against a low level caster with no energy resistance and who carries a lot of Fear Effect Spells does it become useful

[Jigokuro]

I'm going to keep it simple with a
+1 Vorpal Tentacle longsword.
On a crit, it forces a DC 21 fort save to resist brain extration, but if that crit is a 20 the head is cut off anyway, so it only meaningfully comes up on a 19, and then it still isn't that good.
I think I at least have the best(or worst) ratio between name length and usefulness.:smallbiggrin:

[virgileso]

+1 Halfling Dread Longsword = 1.28 million gold

[Rubik]

A Fine-sized alchemical silver -2 cursed longsword with the defending (+1), mighty cleaving (+1), Disarming (+2), Fleshgrinding (+2), precise throwing (+1), spellstrike (+1), morphing (+1) and whirling (+1) abilities, plus spellblade x6 x7 (Targeted Dispel Magic, Targeted Greater Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle, 6,000 gp each), and a Twinned Repeating Contingent Greater Bestow Curse on it prevents the wielder from ever letting go of it under any circumstances.

It's disguised as an hor d'oeuvres toothpick at a fancy party. Someone eats the olive on it and then he's stuck with it when he fails his save. It deals 1 damage natively, so the -2 (-3 with the alchemical silver) means you only ever deal 1 damage, which is minimal damage even on a critical. Defending and spellstrike would apply a penalty to your AC and saves, respectively. Mighty cleaving is also useless since it deals virtually no damage and will likely never kill anything (and the creatures of the size to wield it can't even threaten, meaning it's double-useless). Disarming means it can't be taken from you ever. And fleshgrinding can't be used because the wielder can't let go of the weapon. Precise Throwing is useless as well, because the wielder cannot throw it. Morphing does virtually nothing, because it's so tiny. Even on a x4 critical, that's still only 1 damage: (1 x 4) - 3. Whirling means that you can attack everything within reach of the weapon. For Tiny creatures it's useless, and it deals so little damage that even for larger creatures it's virtually useless. Oh, and the spellblade components mean that the curse, and therefore the sword, can't be removed.

It's about as good as we can get, I think.

[Clistenes]

The Merciful property can be supressed if you want to deal non-lethal damage, and use it when you want to take your foe alive. Taking into account how many classes and prestige classes lose their features if they kill the wrong creature or individual, I don't think the Merciful property is ever a waste.


A Fine-sized alchemical silver -2 cursed longsword with the defending (+1), mighty cleaving (+1), Disarming (+2), Fleshgrinding (+2), precise (+1), spellstrike (+1), morphing (+1) and whirling (+1) abilities, plus spellblade x6 (Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle, 6,000 gp each), and a Twinned Repeating Contingent Greater Bestow Curse on it prevents the wielder from ever letting go of it under any circumstances.

It's disguised as an hor d'oeuvres toothpick at a fancy party. Someone eats the olive on it and then he's stuck with it when he fails his save. It deals 1 damage natively, so the -2 (-3 with the alchemical silver) means you only ever deal 1 damage, which is minimal damage even on a critical. Defending and spellstrike would apply a penalty to your AC and saves, respectively. Mighty cleaving is also useless since it deals virtually no damage and will likely never kill anything (and the creatures of the size to wield it can't even threaten, meaning it's double-useless). Disarming means it can't be taken from you ever. And fleshgrinding can't be used because the wielder can't let go of the weapon. Precise is useless as well, because the wielder cannot throw it. Morphing does virtually nothing, because it's so tiny. Even on a x4 critical, that's still only 1 damage: (1 x 4) - 3. Whirling means that you can attack everything within reach of the weapon. For Tiny creatures it's useless, and it deals so little damage that even for larger creatures it's virtually useless. Oh, and the spellblade components mean that the curse, and therefore the sword, can't be removed.

It's about as good as we can get, I think.

Thanks Boccob for Disjunction.

[Gildedragon]

Hahahaha. Love the toothpick of doom. Question though. How did it get to the platter?

I'm surprised drowcraft hasn't made it into these swords so far

[PrinceOfMadness]

A Fine-sized alchemical silver -2 cursed longsword with the defending (+1), mighty cleaving (+1), Disarming (+2), Fleshgrinding (+2), precise (+1), spellstrike (+1), morphing (+1) and whirling (+1) abilities, plus spellblade x6 (Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle, 6,000 gp each), and a Twinned Repeating Contingent Greater Bestow Curse on it prevents the wielder from ever letting go of it under any circumstances.

It's disguised as an hor d'oeuvres toothpick at a fancy party. Someone eats the olive on it and then he's stuck with it when he fails his save. It deals 1 damage natively, so the -2 (-3 with the alchemical silver) means you only ever deal 1 damage, which is minimal damage even on a critical. Defending and spellstrike would apply a penalty to your AC and saves, respectively. Mighty cleaving is also useless since it deals virtually no damage and will likely never kill anything (and the creatures of the size to wield it can't even threaten, meaning it's double-useless). Disarming means it can't be taken from you ever. And fleshgrinding can't be used because the wielder can't let go of the weapon. Precise is useless as well, because the wielder cannot throw it. Morphing does virtually nothing, because it's so tiny. Even on a x4 critical, that's still only 1 damage: (1 x 4) - 3. Whirling means that you can attack everything within reach of the weapon. For Tiny creatures it's useless, and it deals so little damage that even for larger creatures it's virtually useless. Oh, and the spellblade components mean that the curse, and therefore the sword, can't be removed.

It's about as good as we can get, I think.

You've got Spellblade x6 on there, but you've only designated 5 spells for it (Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle). I would also add in spellblade enchantments for Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Disjunction. You always could walk into an Antimagic Field, I suppose.

[nedz]

I was thinking that there might be some mileage in the Throwing enchantment. Now if you could make the sword only function when thrown, and not be available again afterwards, then you would have a one use Sword. I'm drawing a blank on this one though, any ideas ?

[Clistenes]

You've got Spellblade x6 on there, but you've only designated 5 spells for it (Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle). I would also add in spellblade enchantments for Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Disjunction. You always could walk into an Antimagic Field, I suppose.

You can't use Spellblade against an area spell, so Disjunction and the area version of Dispel spells are out of the question.

Also, the Spellblade property only allows you to hold a single spell until discharging, so several people casting Remove Curse, Break Enchantment and Greater Dispel Magic simultaneously could overload the weapon and break the curse and dispel the Repeating Contingent Curse.

[Marnath]

+1 holy axiomatic intelligent Longsword with a CE personnality (Ego: 34)
Int:10 Wis:19 Cha:19

10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Anauroch)
10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Chult)
10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Cold lands)
10 ranks in Knowledge(local: Savage Frontier)
Item can use detect thoughts at will
Item has continuous detect scrying effect
Item can use rusting grasp as touch attack
Special purpose: Bring and protect the Tarrasque
Special: Ornated with a ruby which cost 4700 gp.

Personnality : refuse to help his wielder except if he try to follow the purpose of the sword.

Intelligent items have to share alignment traits with whatever special abilities they have. This sword can only be LG.

[Rubik]

Added an additional spellblade property to include targeted Dispels and Greater Dispels. Changed the Precise ability to Throwing, because the former didn't work.


Hahahaha. Love the toothpick of doom. Question though. How did it get to the platter?Unseen Servant.

[Talderas]

The Merciful property can be supressed if you want to deal non-lethal damage, and use it when you want to take your foe alive. Taking into account how many classes and prestige classes lose their features if they kill the wrong creature or individual, I don't think the Merciful property is ever a waste.

Outside of the Vow of Nonviolence, I'm unaware of any prestige classes that you have a target and killing anything outside that target causes you to lose features.

The one thing I neglected to mention about the Merciful weapon I posted was that Keeper's Fang is an evil enchantment so that will potentially lock out certain characters from using it, including all exalted characters. However, as I stipulated in my post it does require the merciful enchantment to be active to suck.

[Gildedragon]

Haha! and also had a US forge it on a forge of thautam so as to avoid contact with such a noxious thing

[137beth]

Hmmm...couldn't we just make an intelligent item with insanely high intelligence/wisdom/charisma but no actual capabilities?
Each point of intelligence/wisdom/charisma bonus increases the price by 400, so a +1 intelligent longsword with no communication or powers but that has 340 intelligence, 340 wisdom, and 340 charisma would cost 200,000:smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Hmmm...couldn't we just make an intelligent item with insanely high intelligence/wisdom/charisma but no actual capabilities?
Each point of intelligence/wisdom/charisma bonus increases the price by 400, so a +1 intelligent longsword with no communication or powers but that has 340 intelligence, 340 wisdom, and 340 charisma would cost 200,000:smalltongue:But a +1 intelligent longsword is still a +1 longsword, though I suppose it would basically Dominate any character that touches it.

[Callin]

A regular Longsword with with 199985 in assorted gems adorning it with all the gems stolen out of it.

[Clistenes]

Outside of the Vow of Nonviolence, I'm unaware of any prestige classes that you have a target and killing anything outside that target causes you to lose features.

It depends on how tolerant your DM is, but a paladin or Exalted Prestige Classed character who kills good-aligned people, celestials, good creatures like couatls or gold dragons or unicorns can easily lose his class features and have to seek atonement.

So, if you really need to enter the Temple of Tharidzum to rescue your teammate, but the Celestial/Couatl/Golden Dragon/Celestial Lamassu the gods have commanded to never let anybody in blocks your path, you will feel lucky to be able to defeat it without destroying a servant of the Good Gods who was fulfilling its divine mission.

[137beth]

But a +1 intelligent longsword is still a +1 longsword, though I suppose it would basically Dominate any character that touches it.

Make it chaotic evil (or the opposite alignment of the player) so that it conflicts with them...
it has an ego score of 496, so it would bestow 49 negative levels on anyone who holds it, which cannot be overcome in any way, killing most characters instantly.

Alternatively, just make it true neutral. That way, it can be used by anyone, and really won't do anything except act as a +1 longsword.
Or, we could decide that its goal is to "just stay still all day", so anyone who touches it would be stuck. Permanently:smallbiggrin:

[TypoNinja]

Oh, and the spellblade components mean that the curse, and therefore the sword, can't be removed.

Your toothpick of doom is both awesome and well made, but as far as removal, couldn't I just get somebody to cut off my hand, and then have it regenerated?

[Clistenes]

Your toothpick of doom is both awesome and well made, but as far as removal, couldn't I just get somebody to cut off my hand, and then have it regenerated?

I think that, if it's cursed, it will come back even if you cut your hand. You just will be cursed with a Toothpick of Doom and a rotting severed hand (but, if you are smart enough, you won't touch the thing and will let it in your backpack, unless the curse makes it appear in your hand).

[Saito Takuji]

any sword that is magical would be verry usefull to an artificer to discorporate it, or whatever is the exat way that works where they break down the sword for the extra XP pool

[AmberVael]

Intelligent items have to share alignment traits with whatever special abilities they have. This sword can only be LG.
I was going to make the same kind of item, and so I had looked up this issue. Technically all it really spells out is that randomly generated items must have their special abilities and alignment match.

Admittedly it does make a broader implication, but it doesn't actually restrict it.


On another note, I feel like there could be some use of Profane and Sacred enchantments in this thread. Technically they're command word activated so you don't have to have them on, but if you can figure out a way to make them active constantly, you can deal ability damage to anyone who tries to use the weapon.

[zlefin]

It may've been said already, didn't read pages 2-3. But i'd say an intelligent item of some sort is best.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm
I'm going to go with a +1 brilliant energy intelligent weapon.
Special Purpose: destroy undead. (which it can't harm because it's brilliant energy).
It also has dedicated powers like Phantasmal Killer and others, all of which are useless against undead because they're mind-affecting.
So it's dedicated powers are almost completely unuseable as they cannot effect the targets of its dedicated purpose.

[TypoNinja]

any sword that is magical would be verry usefull to an artificer to discorporate it, or whatever is the exat way that works where they break down the sword for the extra XP pool

Good point, we need to include a retributive strike so breaking it is a bad idea too.

[Slipperychicken]

So find a way to remove the curse long enough for you to give it to another, then laugh as they accept it and die [or become weak enough to kill].

Or leave it on the road for travellers, then kill them after they pick it up. Clean the bodies, leave the sword were it fell. Repeat.

Plant the -2 sword near the corpse of an adventurer. Ideally one who looks like a warrior. Woe betide the one who picks it up.

[eggynack]

I'm not that familiar with the system, but aren't legacy weapons often horrible? There's probably something amusing we could be doing with that.

[TuggyNE]

I think tuggyne is the winner so far.

Woo!

OK, getting back into the swing of things, I'm dropping Psychic (the chance of being found by a melee Psion or high-Wis PsyWar is just too high, even though it's funny to have a magic weapon that for most people doesn't even break DR/magic or add to damage) and replacing it with more Spellblades. So now we're up to 33 separate spells; can we get them all?

Yes, we can! Aid, air walk, bear's endurance, death ward, delay poison, eagle's splendor, endure elements, find the path, fly, fox's cunning, guidance, heroism, imbue with spell-like ability, jump, magic fang, greater magic fang, neutralize poison, owl's wisdom, permanency, protection from arrows, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, regenerate, resistance, lesser restoration, restoration, greater restoration, sanctuary, shield other, stoneskin, true seeing, undetectable alignment, virtue. Actually, there were too many to include, so I cut down the potentially slightly harmful ones. Pretty sure there's nothing in here you wouldn't want, and nothing in here you could make use of the redirection to do, well, much of anything.

Not sure if this is actually worse than the toothpick of doom, but it has the advantage of being uniformly worse than useless rather than actively blocking some spells that could be harmful.

[Der_DWSage]

I'm not that familiar with the system, but aren't legacy weapons often horrible? There's probably something amusing we could be doing with that.

Nah. (And they're only horrible because the ones in the book are horrendously unoptimized.) The problem with Weapons of Legacy is that they don't cost enough for this little discussion-or if you go into epic levels, they cost too much. Not much middle ground for them. (The most expensive set of legacies I could find was for a total of 75k GP. Not quite there.)

[NeoPhoenix0]

1)One could argue that a Blue Ice Longsword with the Flaming enchantment would melt after a certain number of uses, so a +8 Flaming Burst would destroy itself after a while. Not technically legal, but fun to think about.

I suppose that one could argue that, but the argument seems weak since it says that it "only melts under intense and direct application of heat, similar to iron", unless you're also saying a +1 flaming longsword melts over time.

my submission is +1 hunting ki focus soulbound Psychic Dancing longsword

I believe you have to be wielding the sword to benefit from most of those so dancing is either all you use it for or crippling. You also need to multiclass like crazy to get any where near your gold out of it, quite probably ruining your actual character.

EDIT: I name the sword Dyslexic Schizophrenia, with epilepsy.
To cover my tracks here i do not mean to offend anyone with this name.

[TiaC]

Has no one used deathless bane yet? There are around 6 of them and half are Ebberron only.

[Jeff the Green]

Has no one used deathless bane yet? There are around 6 of them and half are Ebberron only.

Combine it with brilliant energy, maybe. Granted it's still brilliant energy, but there's got to be a way to make that useless.

[TypoNinja]

Combine it with brilliant energy, maybe. Granted it's still brilliant energy, but there's got to be a way to make that useless.

Considering brilliant energy only ignores armor and shields, and still has to contend with natural armor, its pretty useless in my opinion.

[TuggyNE]

Considering brilliant energy only ignores armor and shields, and still has to contend with natural armor, its pretty useless in my opinion.

Well, there's a fairly high (low?) bar here. So far, it looks like the one to beat for sheer vicious anti-optimization is Rubik's effort, although it has some notable good points that could be exploited by the proper build. I think mine has a sort of nasty deadness to it: it's a +1 sword, that makes you immune to the most innocuous spells possible, and that's all it does. In comparison, "isn't as good as most +3 swords" seems a little weak. :smalltongue:

[kulosle]

The main problem i have with a lot of these builds is that they use curses. As nedz point out, you can make any weapon useless. And things like the toothpick of doom can be used to kill you enemies. "I gift you this sword, friend." So i think we should set rules to this. Curses shouldn't be allowed and neither should decorations. The spirit of the challenge is to try and find the bad combinations and enhancement. I find spell blade to be questionable because you could just stack it for only bad/beneficial spells like cure spells.

It should obviously be made out of cold iron because it makes you need 1 less enhancement.

I like putting resounding disarming and throwing on it. They don't do anything. I also like knock back. Moving someone 5 feet almost never does anything and that's if it succeeds.

If it's allowed to be a weapon of any size then putting mighty cleaving and whirling on a weapon is useless and you could put the enhancements that give you bonuses to bull rush. then your fine sized creature would be able to bull rush diminutive creatures. But i'm not fond of using a fine sized sword.

I also think we should consider how awesome this sword would be in the hands of a peasant (who for what ever reason doesn't sell it). Like they would love a sword that kills someone ever 20th swing (vorpal). And dancing is an extra attack, which any bard can make awesome.

[Der_DWSage]

Good points, Kulosle-so let's tighten up the requirements a bit.

Challenge:Make the most useless non-cursed +10 (or cost equivalent) Longsword in the hands of a level 1 Commoner (Or if the weapon actually assists a particular class, such as Psions-a level 1 [That Thing]) that took Weapon Proficiency:Martial.

Let's also analyze some of the bonuses that are being thrown around as just generally worthless, and should've been money bonuses. No particular order, but the truly worthless ones in my eyes are getting marked in red, mostly useless in green, and kinda-potentially useful in blue.

Cold Iron - Doubles the cost of your basic longsword, and adds +2000 to the cost of every individual enchantment.

Resounding - Self and allies get a +1 morale bonus vs. Fear if you successfully hit an opponent. +1 bonus.

Knockback - 3/day DC 19 fortitude save to knock a target 5 feet. Only works on targets of your size or smaller. +1 bonus.

Brutal Surge - Activate a Bull Rush (Con+1) times per day. +1 bonus.

Disarming - You cannot be disarmed of this weapon, and you get a +2 to disarm others. +1 Bonus.

Dislocator - 3/day DC 17 Will save or be moved ten feet. +1 Bonus. (Blue only because you could potentially move someone UP, and deal 1d6 falling damage.)

Dispelling - 3/day, CL 5 Dispel on hit. +1 bonus. (Only blue because of that chance of it being a REALLY low caster level to dispel.)

Domineering - DC 17 Will Save or be Shaken. +2 Bonus.

Doom Burst - On critical hits, target becomes Shaken, even if immune to critical hits. +2 Bonus.

[Rare thing] Bane/Fiercebane - Some honorable mentions to Halfling-Bane, Gnome-Bane, Vermin-Bane, etc. from wayback. +1 bonus, +2 total for Fiercebane.

Necrotic Focus - Channel your negative energy effects through the longsword, add its enhancement bonus to the DC. +3 bonus.

Whirling - Made useless by making the sword smaller than Small. +1 Bonus.

Throwing - Throw away your weapon! Hooray! (Can't weapons be thrown as improvised weapons at a -4 penalty anyway?) +1 Bonus.

Explosive - Added because I love the idea. 2d4 damage to all within a 5 foot burst of the target-including the attacker. Reflex DC 15 for half. +2 bonus.

Light Burst - On a critical hit, Dazzle opponent for 5 rounds. If they have a weakness to sunlight, affected as though they had Daylight cast on them and suffer their weakness for one round. (However, Undead are still immune, as this doesn't specify that this works even if they're immune to critical hits.) +1 bonus.

And...that's all the weapon properties I feel like going through. Have fun.

Another special mention should go to making weapons that only add to useless skill checks-a Longsword that adds +20 to Profession(Dirt Farming), Knowledge(When my Anniversary is), and +10 Truespeech costs 202.5k by itself, and wouldn't even require the +1 bonus. (The +1 bonus is only needed for those melee properties!)

Did I miss anything? I don't think I missed anything. I'm sure I missed something though, and someone will point it out.

EDIT:Oh yeah, that's what I forgot. One thing people keep throwing out there-weapons like Constructbane, Undeadbane Brilliant Energy longswords.

This is an example of very poor synergy, but is not a hideous weapon on its own merits. It's still bad, but we're going for something so cringe-inducing that you'd rather pick up a basic +3 weapon than this +10 equivalent monstrosity. And don't forget that many non-cursed weapon abilities can be turned off.

[eggynack]

Well, you have the stuff that'd only be good on a very specific character, and is actually of low utility even then. This includes stuff like mighty smiting, and hunting. Hunting seems like the worst thing ever on a non-ranger, and is only mediocre on a ranger. Also, I kinda like the idea of using the holy/unholy thing, and tossing mighty smiting on that. It's suffering from the whole asynergystic rather than bad problem, but mighty smiting can apparently go on any weapon, so if we can find an easy way to make this thing unusable by paladins, this would be a good addition.

[Svata]

Anarchic? Give the poor pally who tries to wield it a negative level, maybe?

[eggynack]

Anarchic? Give the poor pally who tries to wield it a negative level, maybe?
That's about what I was figuring, but anarchic isn't all that bad on a non-paladin, and he can always just be a paladin of freedom or slaughter. That's why I suggested working opposing enchantments into it, though the whole thing falls under the issue of being asynergystic rather than bad. Still, mighty smiting isn't all that great on its own, and I think that there must be a way to make it useless, without using things that're useful. That path is rather self defeating.

[Der_DWSage]

Unfortunately, while there are a few enchantments that would do the trick (Ones that work with poisons are the ones that come to mind) most of them can still be turned off or need an activation...and a single negative level can be ignored at higher levels.

Perhaps it'd be better to go for some of the weapons that introduce binary variables, and try to make them off/off. Such as the Brilliant Energy conundrum, where making it unable to deal damage to living creatures would render it 100% useless. Perhaps something to do with ethereal?

[Ernir]

Hmmm...couldn't we just make an intelligent item with insanely high intelligence/wisdom/charisma but no actual capabilities?
Each point of intelligence/wisdom/charisma bonus increases the price by 400, so a +1 intelligent longsword with no communication or powers but that has 340 intelligence, 340 wisdom, and 340 charisma would cost 200,000:smalltongue:
That's insanely useful! It's a conscious, charismatic, weapon-shaped supercomputer.

Good gawd, I have plot ideas now.

[Somensjev]

inteligent anarchic cold iron longsword of throwing, returning, ki-focusing, and mercifullness



Intelligent cold iron longsword
Int 10, wis 19, cha 19
Ego 50
Alignment: N
Purpose: kill/slay all (except weapon and wieder)
Requirement: must be held onto, at all times (all rolls with sword become Nat 1's for 1 hour/minute it wasn’t held onto)
Drawback: all enchantments cannot be supressed
Personality: refuses to injure someone with spells, but it wants everyone, and everything, dead. Refuses to commune with/help wielder until they complete it's purpose
Minor powers:
10 ranks knowledge (religion): +5000
10 ranks knowledge (geography): +5000
10 ranks knowledge (arcane): +5000
10 ranks decipher script: +5000
Greater powers:
Detect thoughts: +44000
Locate creature 3/day: +30000
Arcane eye 1/day: +10000
Dedicated power
10d6 fireball +60000


Merciful +4000
Throwing +4000
Returning +4000
Ki-focus +4000
Anarchic +4000

Long sword: 310 (620)
Cold iron: base price x 2, enchantments +2000
Intelligent: +15000


Total price =199620

i think i got that right..?
it's the first time i've made my own enchanted weapon, so i have probably stuffed up somewhere..

[TuggyNE]

The spirit of the challenge is to try and find the bad combinations and enhancement. I find spell blade to be questionable because you could just stack it for only bad/beneficial spells like cure spells.

I'd consider terrible Spellblade attunement choices on a slightly different level from deliberately making or improving a cursed weapon; sure, they're worse than useless, but you can just not use the weapon if you want them. Cursed weapons, however, are either of negative utility, or are rather useful in niche cases, especially if you get past the curse. (Incidentally, blocking cure spells would actually be more useful: undead don't want positive energy getting in, after all.)

So, on a scale of "as close to 0 utility as possible, without going negative, for as close to all characters as possible", this gets pretty far.

Also, I'm not going to include cold iron: bypassing DR/cold iron is just too useful.

[TypoNinja]

I feel like Disruption should be in the running for nearly useless.


Disruption

A weapon of disruption is the bane of all undead. Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be destroyed. A weapon of disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)

Will is actually the good save on quite a few undead, and anything weak enough to lose a DC 14 save consistently isn't going to be something you needed magical assistance killing.

All this for a +2 enchantment.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Also, I'm not going to include cold iron: bypassing DR/cold iron is just too useful.

How about kheferu? It's from Sandstorm, and has the same price obstructions that cold iron does. It does, however, automatically bypass the DR of anything with the [earth] subtype... but how many of those creatures have anything that's not DR/magic (which the competition would automatically get through anyways)?


I feel like Disruption should be in the running for nearly useless.

Will is actually the good save on quite a few undead, and anything weak enough to lose a DC 14 save consistently isn't going to be something you needed magical assistance killing.

All this for a +2 enchantment.

Isn't Disruption for bludgeoning weapons only?

Actually, on that route, maybe make a morphing weapon that has a bunch of abilities that aren't synergistic (like... Disruption and Vorpal)?

[SinsI]

Just make it out of platinum. With 1pp being worth 10 gp, and 9 gramm/piece you would need about 180kg of it, so it is going to be an incredibly unwieldy bar of precious metal that is not only useless - but acts as a strong hindrance to the party.

[awa]

Make it chaotic evil (or the opposite alignment of the player) so that it conflicts with them...
it has an ego score of 496, so it would bestow 49 negative levels on anyone who holds it, which cannot be overcome in any way, killing most characters instantly.

Alternatively, just make it true neutral. That way, it can be used by anyone, and really won't do anything except act as a +1 longsword.
Or, we could decide that its goal is to "just stay still all day", so anyone who touches it would be stuck. Permanently:smallbiggrin:

this assuming legal seems to be the worst possible long sword infinitely worse then one that is merely inefficient.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just make it out of platinum. With 1pp being worth 10 gp, and 9 gramm/piece you would need about 180kg of it, so it is going to be an incredibly unwieldy bar of precious metal that is not only useless - but acts as a strong hindrance to the party.

There's rules for Heavy weapons (made out of gold, platinum, the like) in... the Player's Guide to Faerun? Regardless, they have a purpose and aren't completely useless. I believe that they do damage as if they were a size larger.

[TypoNinja]

Isn't Disruption for bludgeoning weapons only?

Actually, on that route, maybe make a morphing weapon that has a bunch of abilities that aren't synergistic (like... Disruption and Vorpal)?

Yea bludgeoning only. And you might be on to something with the morphing weapon.

[137beth]

That's insanely useful! It's a conscious, charismatic, weapon-shaped supercomputer.

Good gawd, I have plot ideas now.

Nope, its mind is extremely powerful, but it has no communication or perceptive abilities, so it is a super computer which cannot give output and cannot be given input. And it makes the wielder stand still all the time unless they can beat an ego of 495.
Or we make it chaotic evil so it gives 49 negative levels to anyone who uses it:smalltongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

+1 disruption morphing returning vorpal longsword?

None of it's abilities (except the +1 morphing) can be used in conjunction. Disruption has a low-will save (DC 14 Will), Returning is, well, Returning and Vorpal is of very little use.

Possible replacements for Returning, maybe, to make it even less useful?

[Lightlawbliss]

longsword with audible alarm (cl 100) cast on itself continuously set for anyone coming within range (no pass code).

[kulosle]

as close to 0 utility as possible, without going negative, for as close to all characters as possible

So i'm pretty sure this is what we're going for. Thank you.

I think a good way of thinking about this, is that the sword should be less useful than a +2 longsword. Since it has to be at least +1.

And i think that we should probably prohibit metals other than steal just becuase making it out of something so expensive it doesn't even need to be magical sounds like cheating.

[Devronq]

A regular Longsword with with 199985 in assorted gems adorning it with all the gems stolen out of it.

Damn you i was gunna say that :P

[Alex12]

As far as I can tell, constant effect Antimagic Field is worth 132k, unless I'm doing something wrong.
Put whatever other effects you want on it.

[NeoPhoenix0]

As far as I can tell, constant effect Antimagic Field is worth 132k, unless I'm doing something wrong.
Put whatever other effects you want on it.

That sword is a masterwork longsword that is insanely good at killing mages that you sneak up on (good luck sneaking up on your standard wizard who according to the playground is so paranoid he won't touch a toothpick that he didn't carve himself after divining the multitude of possible futures it could create.) It is also really specially effective against vampires, pretty good against most undead, deadly to all animated objects, makes you immune to summoned creatures, etc..

Edit: If the above stated wizard wasn't paranoid about toothpicks before he will be now, especially if his DM reads these threads.

[nedz]

Disruption is a legacy thing. A Mace of Disruption was actually quite good in AD&D because saves worked differently.

As for the materials question — why not make your longsword out of chocolate ?

[TuggyNE]

How about kheferu? It's from Sandstorm, and has the same price obstructions that cold iron does. It does, however, automatically bypass the DR of anything with the [earth] subtype... but how many of those creatures have anything that's not DR/magic (which the competition would automatically get through anyways)?

Earth elementals have DR/-. Does it get through that? If so, it is SO OP!


Actually, on that route, maybe make a morphing weapon that has a bunch of abilities that aren't synergistic (like... Disruption and Vorpal)?

That's amusing, but that generally leaves at least one of them functional, and (in the case of Disruption and Vorpal) the ability to switch between "living mode, cut off its head sometimes" and "undead mode, dust it sometimes" is actually pretty handy. Well, in a relative sense. Sure, it'd be nice to have both for vampires, but eh.


So i'm pretty sure this is what we're going for. Thank you.

I think a good way of thinking about this, is that the sword should be less useful than a +2 longsword. Since it has to be at least +1.

Yeah, I think that's a good baseline. If you can make it, to some reasonable approximation, actually less useful than a standard +1 sword that's even better, but if it's as good as or better than a +2 sword then that's just lame.


And i think that we should probably prohibit metals other than steal just becuase making it out of something so expensive it doesn't even need to be magical sounds like cheating.

I don't think there's any RAW way to make a 200kgp weapon that isn't magical in some fashion. Except maybe the gem decoration thing, which kind of defeats itself.

[Alex12]

That sword is a masterwork longsword that is insanely good at killing mages that you sneak up on (good luck sneaking up on your standard wizard who according to the playground is so paranoid he won't touch a toothpick that he didn't carve himself after divining the multitude of possible futures it could create.) It is also really specially effective against vampires, pretty good against most undead, deadly to all animated objects, makes you immune to summoned creatures, etc..

Edit: If the above stated wizard wasn't paranoid about toothpicks before he will be now, especially if his DM reads these threads.

Hm. Maybe modify it so that it's use-triggered, where use is "swinging the sword" and it triggers before you actually make the roll.
So it's got a whole bunch of awesome magical abilities up until you actually try to use it, at which point an AMF activates for a short time.
Actually, depending on the AMF duration, that sounds pretty cool.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I got the worst right here; a titanic non-masterwork longsword made out of the quivalent of 20.000.000 copper pieces in copper.

1) It can't be enchanted.
2) It confers no bonuses whatsoever.
3) It is too large to be wielded by any creature of less than gargantuan size with significant feat expenditure.
4) It weighs 20 tons and thus cannot be carried by anyone whose lift equivalent is less than strength 55, at least not without expending magic to resize it.
5) It is made of a soft metal (copper), thus taking penalties to attack/damage as appropriate for softer materials.
6) It requires much more work to craft than a weapon of normal size.
7) It is too physically large to allow anyone who carries it to go through most doors and dungeons.
8) Anyone who carries it has too much load to be teleported.

[Khay]

I have no idea if I'm doing this correctly, because I don't actually know the rules, but - could one make an item with Special Purpose Item Dedicated Powers that cannot possibly work on its Special Purpose? Like, making the item be a hunter of the undead and giving it stuff like Phantasmal Killer, Mass Inflict Light Wounds and Song of Discord as special powers?

Though I guess these are marginally useful when dealing with a lich's mortal servants or somesuch.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You could make an intelligent item with a purpose of killing its wielder. :smallamused:

[Khay]

Well, that's not listed as a possiblity on the page, so I'm not sure how that works with RAW. Though I suppose "kill everything that isn't undead" would work and make the sword only usable by the undead - and then you could give it special powers like casting Cure Moderate Wounds on the wielder. Yeah, thanks a lot, sword. :smallsigh:

[Invader]

The correct answer is a mundane longsword with a decorative 199,985gp gem in the pommel.

[NEO|Phyte]

The correct answer is a mundane longsword with a decorative 199,985gp gem in the pommel.

Too useful, that gem could be used to Trap the Soul of a creature with up to 199 HD.

[Clistenes]

You could make an intelligent item with a purpose of killing its wielder. :smallamused:

I'm sure there is some God of Suicide, or Gamble or Madness or Bravado who would favor you just for using that.

[SinsI]

I got the worst right here; a titanic non-masterwork longsword made out of the quivalent of 20.000.000 copper pieces in copper.

1) It can't be enchanted.
2) It confers no bonuses whatsoever.
3) It is too large to be wielded by any creature of less than gargantuan size with significant feat expenditure.
4) It weighs 20 tons and thus cannot be carried by anyone whose lift equivalent is less than strength 55, at least not without expending magic to resize it.
5) It is made of a soft metal (copper), thus taking penalties to attack/damage as appropriate for softer materials.
6) It requires much more work to craft than a weapon of normal size.
7) It is too physically large to allow anyone who carries it to go through most doors and dungeons.
8) Anyone who carries it has too much load to be teleported.
A gold one is worse - it is all of the above plus it serves as a bright flashing sign "I'm a rich idiot, please assault/rob me".

[Khay]

Couldn't you - theoretically - cast Shrink Item, throw the thing, then dismiss the spell in mid-air for funtimes? It'll still be Large even post-shrunk, so maybe that's more of a "siege weapon/flatten cities" thing, but, you know, it's a potential use.

[Invader]

Too useful, that gem could be used to Trap the Soul of a creature with up to 199 HD.

199,985gp worth of useless gem chips then.

[eggynack]

I think we've covered the whole, "sword that's arbitrarily expensive for a reason separate from its enhancements" thing already. It's just not a very productive area of analysis. I mean, we could talk about which specific jewels are least valuable, or optimal ways to attach those jewels to the sword, but by that point this feels off topic. The same goes for cursed weapons, because it's just so obvious.

[Invader]

I think we've covered the whole, "sword that's rarily expensive for a reason separate from its enhancements" thing already. It's just not a very productive area of analysis. I mean, we could talk about which specific jewels are least valuable, or optimal ways to attach those jewels to the sword, but by that point this feels off topic. The same goes for cursed weapons, because it's just so obvious.

That's the topic though, no matter what enchants you put on it is going to be at least situationally usual.

Really there is no "least valuable" because 200,000 is the same value whether it's gems or bales of straw.

[Knaight]

On special materials, it seems like a few things (that have been numerically codified) have been overlooked. Specifically, the DMG lists ancient materials, most notably stone, bone, and bronze. Bone is basically worthless, and unlike chocolate or similar is within the rules.

[eggynack]

That's the topic though, no matter what enchants you put on it is going to be at least situationally usual.

Really there is no "least valuable" because 200,000 is the same value whether it's gems or bales of straw.
Sure, but it's kind of pointless. This is like a suboptimization challenge. Bejeweling is just kinda bypassing the whole thing. Also, it's been said before,
here:

A regular Longsword with with 199985 in assorted gems adorning it with all the gems stolen out of it.
and here:

Just make it out of platinum. With 1pp being worth 10 gp, and 9 gramm/piece you would need about 180kg of it, so it is going to be an incredibly unwieldy bar of precious metal that is not only useless - but acts as a strong hindrance to the party.
so it's not entirely new. I think that what we're going for is approximately this:


Yeah, I think that's a good baseline. If you can make it, to some reasonable approximation, actually less useful than a standard +1 sword that's even better, but if it's as good as or better than a +2 sword then that's just lame.

I don't think there's any RAW way to make a 200kgp weapon that isn't magical in some fashion. Except maybe the gem decoration thing, which kind of defeats itself.
which actually does bring up the gem thing. We're basically trying to put enchantments on a weapon that are as bad as possible, or some equivalent kind of weapon thing. Stuff like intelligent weapons, or the apparently non-viable legacy weapons. Sticking jewels on a weapon just doesn't seem like an interesting line of inquiry, and it's not really a new one either.

[Invader]

Sure, but it's kind of pointless. This is like a suboptimization challenge Bejeweling is just kinda bypassing the wholoriginal e thing. Also, it's been said before,
here:

and here:

so it's not entirely new. I think that what we're going for is approximately this:

which actually does bring up the gem thing. We're basically trying to put enchantments on a weapon that are as bad as possible, or some equivalent kind of weapon thing. Stuff like intelligent weapons, or the apparently non-viable legacy weapons. Sticking jewels on a weapon just doesn't seem like an interesting line of inquiry, and it's not really a new one either.

I didnt read through all 4 pages of posts but just because it's not an interesting or clever idea doesn't mean it's not the best option to the original question.

[eggynack]

I didnt read through all 4 pages of posts but just because it's not an interesting or clever idea doesn't mean it's not the best option to the original question.
Fair enough on not reading everything, but technically a cursed weapon could be worse than a jeweled sword. Thus, there exists a worse option. Also, some folks came up with weapons that are basically unusable, or have a high ego score and thus cause problems for the wielder. Basically, there are weapons that are worse than just a regular mundane longsword, because they serve as active hindrances. Still, it's just not as interesting of a topic as figuring out cool combinations of bonuses that are pointless both alone, and sometimes even in tandem. It's also kinda neat figuring out ways for those awful weapons to be useful.

[Rubik]

I've never really read up on Weapons of Legacy, but from what I've read on some of the examples I've seen online, many of them seem at least as bad as the accursed toothpick.

Anyone feel like optimizing a legacy weapon?

[eggynack]

I've never really read up on Weapons of Legacy, but from what I've read on some of the examples I've seen online, many of them seem at least as bad as the accursed toothpick.

Anyone feel like optimizing a legacy weapon?
I mentioned it, and apparently they're universally outside the price range for the challenge.

[Rubik]

I mentioned it, and apparently they're universally outside the price range for the challenge.And you can't add anything to them?

[eggynack]

And you can't add anything to them?
I have absolutely no idea. I should do some eye viewing of my own. I mostly tossed out the possibility, it was said to be ineffective for the challenge, and we kinda moved on. It might theoretically be worth looking into though, until someone says what the main problems are again, at which point we'll be about back to where we were.

Edit: Looked it up. You can't add anything to them. Specifically, on page 11 of weapons of legacy, it states, "The power of a legacy item cannot be further enhanced using any regular process (such as magic or psionic item creation feats). " Ah well. Legacy weapons are kinda dumb though, so I'ma keep looking to make sure that you can't create a legacy weapon that's priced that high, without going over.

[Noneoyabizzness]

A wooden longsword crafted by a master artisan and involved in a historic battle over 100 years ago . all its value is based on it's history but no practical use. and given it's market value the laws of magic dictate that it cannot be enchanted.

[TuggyNE]

That's the topic though, no matter what enchants you put on it is going to be at least situationally usual.

I beg to differ! My ssssspellblade-combo sword has no situation in which it is unusually useful — it's always a +1 sword at best, and sometimes worse than that. What's more, it achieves this pinnacle of mediocrity without anything but weapon special abilities: no special materials, no size shenanigans, no decoration, no curse, no fiated historic value, no nothing.


Really there is no "least valuable" because 200,000 is the same value whether it's gems or bales of straw.

More precisely, "least valuable" for anything other than reselling to the next chump you can find.

[Rubik]

I beg to differ! My ssssspellblade-combo sword has no situation in which it is unusually useful — it's always a +1 sword at best, and sometimes worse than that. What's more, it achieves this pinnacle of mediocrity without anything but weapon special abilities: no special materials, no size shenanigans, no decoration, no curse, no fiated historic value, no nothing.



More precisely, "least valuable" for anything other than reselling to the next chump you can find.Your multispellblade would be good occasionally for those who would find some of those spells less than desireable at times (like a golem that doesn't like some of those buffs, for instance), so resale is an option.

My toothpick? Nobody will want that one.

[Der_DWSage]

Yes, but your toothpick is a cursed item-granted, one of the less extreme curses, but still cursed.

Frankly, it wins fewer 'win' points than the 'immune to beneficial spells' sword just by value of being less desirable than a regular weapon while still having the choice of being given to someone else.

[Rubik]

Yes, but your toothpick is a cursed item-granted, one of the less extreme curses, but still cursed.

Frankly, it wins fewer 'win' points than the 'immune to beneficial spells' sword just by value of being less desirable than a regular weapon while still having the choice of being given to someone else.Question: Which fulfills the stated topic better? IE, which is "worst"?

[eggynack]

Question: Which fulfills the stated topic better? IE, which is "worst"?
We could always just say that both are cool, and come up with more stuff. The definition of "worst", and the parameters of the competition, are a bit ill defined, so we might as well succeed in as many ways as possible.

[Rubik]

We could always just say that both are cool, and come up with more stuff. The definition of "worst", and the parameters of the competition, are a bit ill defined, so we might as well succeed in as many ways as possible.More than fair enough.

[eggynack]

I think I found the cheapest way, effectiveness wise, to make a weapon incapable of being wielded by an evil creature. That method is the least fiendslayer crystal. It only gives you an extra 1d6 against evil outsiders, which is rather minor, and it gives a negative level to evil folks who wield it. This might help out for plans that involve barring the weapon from certain alignments, which came up awhile back. It's certainly less intrinsically powerful than holy, though it has the disadvantage of only costing 1000 GP. If there's some way to make an augment crystal stick to a weapon, like maybe sovereign glue, this could be neat.

[Rubik]

I think I found the cheapest way, effectiveness wise, to make a weapon incapable of being wielded by an evil creature. That method is the least fiendslayer crystal. It only gives you an extra 1d6 against evil outsiders, which is rather minor, and it gives a negative level to evil folks who wield it. This might help out for plans that involve barring the weapon from certain alignments, which came up awhile back. It's certainly less intrinsically powerful than holy, though it has the disadvantage of only costing 1000 GP. If there's some way to make an augment crystal stick to a weapon, like maybe sovereign glue, this could be neat.Or just add the power to the sword itself for 1.5x the cost, just like the MIC says.

[eggynack]

Or just add the power to the sword itself for 1.5x the cost, just like the MIC says.
Ooh, snazzy. I didn't know about that one. This should probably help with some sort of thing. The lack of +1 on it is a bit problematic, but if you give the weapon some kinds of effects that can only be used by evil folks somehow, this'd be great. It's also neat if you can find a cheap way to make the weapon unwieldable by good folks too, the holy smiting effect comes free.

Edit: The crystal doesn't seem to make the weapon good aligned either, even at the lesser and greater levels, so that should make it easier to stick stuff on it. I don't remember anything specific, but I think that there must be a restriction on that basis.

[Rubik]

According to all the items I've looked at, granting a bonus feat costs an average of 10,000 gp. In fact, most of them cost that exactly.

So, with that in mind, how's this for an insidious weapon? A backbiting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#spearCursedBackbiter) thinaun (+15,000 gp) +1 dispelling (+1), greater dispelling (+1) ghost touch (+1), whirling (+1), vorpal (+5) longsword. It grants the Better Lucky Than Good feat (Complete Scoundrel, 74, +10,000 gp). It allows the wielder to turn one roll per day from a natural 1 to a natural 20. The feat granted by this weapon can be used without its normal prereqs, but it only works on attack rolls with the weapon.

This insidious weapon is amazing...until the wielder hits a nat 1, which activates the accursed backbiting ability. And, of course, the character wielding it will immediately use the Better Lucky Than Good feat to turn it into a natural 20. The ghost touch property means that all attacks with it are considered touch attacks, meaning it bypasses most forms of armor and will likely confirm the critical, thus killing the wielder. The rest of the abilities are to make everyone who touches it want to keep using it until they roll a natural 1. And then their soul is consumed by the weapon. Bye bye.

[Kuulvheysoon]

According to all the items I've looked at, granting a bonus feat costs an average of 10,000 gp. In fact, most of them cost that exactly.

So, with that in mind, how's this for an insidious weapon? A backbiting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#spearCursedBackbiter) thinaun (+15,000 gp) +1 dispelling (+1), greater dispelling (+1) ghost touch (+1), whirling (+1), vorpal (+5) longsword. It grants the Better Lucky Than Good feat (Complete Scoundrel, 74, +10,000 gp). It allows the wielder to turn one roll per day from a natural 1 to a natural 20. The feat granted by this weapon can be used without its normal prereqs, but it only works on attack rolls with the weapon.

This insidious weapon is amazing...until the wielder hits a nat 1, which activates the accursed backbiting ability. And, of course, the character wielding it will immediately use the Better Lucky Than Good feat to turn it into a natural 20. The ghost touch property means that all attacks with it are considered touch attacks, meaning it bypasses most forms of armor and will likely confirm the critical, thus killing the wielder. The rest of the abilities are to make everyone who touches it want to keep using it until they roll a natural 1. And then their soul is consumed by the weapon. Bye bye.

That's... not what Ghost Touch does (assuming that we're talking about the one in the DMG).
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, plane shift; Price +1 bonus.

[Rubik]

That's... not what Ghost Touch does (assuming that we're talking about the one in the DMG).It's treated as incorporeal whenever it would benefit the wielder.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype:
Incorporeal Subtype

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. According to the above, you ignore armor, shields, natural armor, and the presence of solid cover (assuming you can see your opponent in some way).

So suck on that, Brilliant Energy weapons!

[TuggyNE]

Your multispellblade would be good occasionally for those who would find some of those spells less than desireable at times (like a golem that doesn't like some of those buffs, for instance), so resale is an option.

Which of those would a golem not want? I deliberately left resist energy and protection from energy out, just in case. (Also, a golem can just choose not to lower its SR immunity/forego its saves for those buffs anyway if it doesn't want them; the sword doesn't give them much, if anything.)

Seriously, if there are any spells at all on the list that are ever potentially harmful, I'd like to see them. (I guess freedom and freedom of movement could be harmful if you're currently being kept from danger by a confining spell, and blur might be annoying to a Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit build, so I took them off.)


My toothpick? Nobody will want that one.

Until it's uncursed and used as protection from dispels and what-not, you mean. :smallwink::smalltongue:


We could always just say that both are cool, and come up with more stuff. The definition of "worst", and the parameters of the competition, are a bit ill defined, so we might as well succeed in as many ways as possible.

Fair enough. :smallcool:

Anybody want to separate out the different possible criteria for possible detailed evaluation?

[eggynack]

It's treated as incorporeal whenever it would benefit the wielder.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype:According to the above, you ignore armor, shields, natural armor, and the presence of solid cover (assuming you can see your opponent in some way).

So suck on that, Brilliant Energy weapons!
Well, even if that's true, which I'll have to do more research to prove or disprove, your combo wouldn't work. The weapon only counts as incorporeal if that would benefit the wielder, and if it's easier to stab yourself if the sword is incorporeal, it would benefit the wielder more to have the weapon count as corporeal. Thus, the ghost touch weapon wouldn't work for this.

[NeoPhoenix0]

It's treated as incorporeal whenever it would benefit the wielder.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype:According to the above, you ignore armor, shields, natural armor, and the presence of solid cover (assuming you can see your opponent in some way).

So suck on that, Brilliant Energy weapons!

Read the ghost touch weapon entry again. It doesn't have the ability to materialize while it is incorporeal and it doesn't have the ability to count as both corporeal and incorporeal at the same time. It is either corporeal or incorporeal ant any given time.

[Rubik]

Read the ghost touch weapon entry again. It doesn't have the ability to materialize while it is incorporeal and it doesn't have the ability to count as both corporeal and incorporeal at the same time. It is either corporeal or incorporeal ant any given time.Yes, so you make incorporeal touch attacks. Note that incorporeal things don't ignore living tissue beyond natural armor.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yes, so you make incorporeal touch attacks. Note that incorporeal things don't ignore living tissue beyond natural armor.

Ok but that only works for incorporeal creatures. It is corporeal when a corporeal creature wields it, because corporeal creatures can't wield incorporeal weapons.

[Rubik]

Ok but that only works for incorporeal creatures. It is corporeal when a corporeal creature wields it, because corporeal creatures can't wield incorporeal weapons.Except when it's incorporeal, such as when you're hitting something with it.

[eggynack]

Except when it's incorporeal, such as when you're hitting something with it.
I think that my point stands on this one, even if you're correct on the mechanics of the weapon. If you're hitting yourself with a weapon, it's more beneficial to you if you do so poorly. Thus, even if ghost touch can make touch attacks, you can't force someone to make touch attacks against themselves with it. I mean, if they want to suicide, I guess that would change things, but that's not exactly relevant to this discussion.

[Rubik]

I think that my point stands on this one, even if you're correct on the mechanics of the weapon. If you're hitting yourself with a weapon, it's more beneficial to you if you do so poorly. Thus, even if ghost touch can make touch attacks, you can't force someone to make touch attacks against themselves with it. I mean, if they want to suicide, I guess that would change things, but that's not exactly relevant to this discussion.I suppose we can call it a bigger draw for whomever is using it, then.

Still a really nasty trick though, I think.

[NeoPhoenix0]

One final question before i drop the matter. Can a corporeal creature manipulate an incorporeal object?

If not it has to remain corporeal so the creature doesn't drop it. Hit ghosts without miss chance doesn't depend on corporealness it is an inherent and independent property of both the ghost touch weapon property and the incorporeal subtype.

On topic, i think the challenge would be better if we where trying to find the least useful +10 non-epic steel longsword. No materials, no gems, not non-weapon enhancement magical effect (except maybe a specific weapon ability,) and maybe no weapon crystals because weapon crystals don't have to stay with the sword.

[eggynack]

On topic, i think the challenge would be better if we where trying to find the least useful +10 non-epic steel longsword. No materials, no gems, not non-weapon enhancement magical effect (except maybe a specific weapon ability,) and maybe no weapon crystals because weapon crystals don't have to stay with the sword.
I kinda like things as they are. There's a whole component of this thread devoted to the exact thing you're discussing, and I don't really see the harm in also having some people talk about cursed weapons, or having some people talk about intelligent weapons, or even having some people talking about what types of gems they want to adorn their mundane weapon, and the patterns that shall be formed by them upon its surface. Additionally, Rubik mentioned that it's possible to add the weapon crystals to the sword inherently, though I don't know where the book says that, so I could use a citation. If all else fails, I can always fall back on good old fashioned sovereign glue.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I kinda like things as they are. There's a whole component of this thread devoted to the exact thing you're discussing, and I don't really see the harm in also having some people talk about cursed weapons, or having some people talk about intelligent weapons, or even having some people talking about what types of gems they want to adorn their mundane weapon, and the patterns that shall be formed by them upon its surface. Additionally, Rubik mentioned that it's possible to add the weapon crystals to the sword inherently, though I don't know where the book says that, so I could use a citation. If all else fails, I can always fall back on good old fashioned sovereign glue.

You're not the OP, but he hasn't chimed in for a while and you have a good point.

I believe this is what he is thinking about with the weapon crystal thing.

Multiple Different Abilities

Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

[Courier6]

A +1 drowcraft doomstrike sundering keepers fang profane profane burst longsword is really bad for PC's but really good against PCs.

Characters killed by this blade cannot be resurrected(Keeper's Fang, Eberron Campaign Setting pg. 266)

The weapon dissolves in sunlight (Drowcraft, Underdark pg.68)

It lets you sunder really well (Sundering, MIC pg.44 and Doomstrike, Champions of Ruin pg. 42

It deals constitution damage to the user unless he is undead (Profane and Profane Burst, MIC pg. 40

So unless the user is an undead melee character who likes to destoy his own loot and never goes outside it's worse than a regular +1 sword. But it could be really dangerous if a DM used it against his party(and useless as loot.)

[AlexanderRM]

What about a +1 holy unholy axiomatic anarchic ki focus one? Monks are non-proficient, and everyone's going to be taking negative levels for wielding it.


Problem here: True Neutral characters wouldn't take any negative levels. That weapon would actually be *perfect* for Concordant Killers, except that they get a replaceable one automatically as a supernatural ability. There's also those people in the Outlands who preserve the balance.
Other than that, though, most Neutral characters won't be attacking angels... although Axiomatic, Anarchic, and Unholy would actually be potentially useful for a planar traveler who wants to be able to bypass DR without having to cast Align Weapon; make it Cold Iron and get some Silversheen for even better effect.
Also, an ex-monk/class with Longsword proficiency could potentially make use of it.

Still, it's definitely a good one, and interesting; certainly one of the more creative ones. Worth at *minimum* a guaranteed Honorable Mention. And to the majority of characters it's probably worse than any of the other examples.


Edit: Yeah, sorry, I hadn't gotten to the cursed items before writing this. I'd like to say that for the majority of characters it's probably worse than any of the other non-cursed examples. I mean, Cursed items are supposed to be negative, so it feels a bit like cheating, plus it's useful to trap your enemies with if you can acquire it without picking it up. Still, definitely also interesting. It's like the equivalent of interesting cheese for our reverse optimization challenge.

[Rubik]

Problem here: True Neutral characters wouldn't take any negative levels. That weapon would actually be *perfect* for Concordant Killers, except that they get a replaceable one automatically as a supernatural ability. There's also those people in the Outlands who preserve the balance.
Other than that, though, most Neutral characters won't be attacking angels... although Axiomatic, Anarchic, and Unholy would actually be potentially useful for a planar traveler who wants to be able to bypass DR without having to cast Align Weapon; make it Cold Iron and get some Silversheen for even better effect.
Also, an ex-monk/class with Longsword proficiency could potentially make use of it.

Still, it's definitely a good one, and interesting; certainly one of the more creative ones. Worth at *minimum* a guaranteed Honorable Mention. And to the majority of characters it's probably worse than any of the other examples.I think you'll like The Accursed Toothpick of DoomTM a bit more.

[AlexanderRM]

Cold iron only doubles the base cost of the weapon and adds 2k per enchantment

Oh... huh. I've been doing it as Cold Iron increases the cost by 2k if you enchant it at all, but only once. That way does make more sense, in some ways, but on the other hand it's an odd mechanic if all enchantments add the same 2k regardless of how many points they're worth, and the way it's described... feels like they should have said "per enchantment" or the like.

Although, per enchantment is definitely more thematic for the magic resistance, rather than essentially having a fixed price that's no different from the other special materials once you enhance it, which is what happens with how I've been doing it.

[AlexanderRM]

Good points, Kulosle-so let's tighten up the requirements a bit.


Personally, I don't think we should have tight requirements, but I would like to see some... differentiation. I enjoy seeing ideas involving curses or intelligent items. Let's say we can have a contest of:
The worst Longsword which has +10 worth of special abilities, is made for Medium creatures, and is otherwise completely normal in every way, by selecting abilities that are simply bad.



We can *also* have people suggesting ways to make a Longsword extra-useless in *creative* ways, which no-one in the thread had mentioned to that point, like abilities that don't synergize well with one another, specific ways of making curses disable enhancements, or making it different-sized in a useless way (like the conflicting alignments, the -2 defending, or the Colossal Underdark), or creative ways of making it cost extra.

Basically what people have been doing, but specifically with a challenge added to also use *just* +10 of special abilities, if you want to.



Edit: actually, eggynack suggested essentially the same thing, better. I probably should have finished reading the thread before I started posting. >_>


We could always just say that both are cool, and come up with more stuff. The definition of "worst", and the parameters of the competition, are a bit ill defined, so we might as well succeed in as many ways as possible.

[AlexanderRM]

Has no one used deathless bane yet? There are around 6 of them and half are Ebberron only.

Well that's perfect. Make it non-Ebberron and combine it with Holy so Evil creatures can't use it... although Holy by itself is fairly good. Something that prevents Evil creatures from using it would be good, though.

Ooh! Could you perhaps make an Intelligent item where the intelligence is, say, Good-aligned while all the special abilities are Evil-aligned, and the backstory is that it was made Intelligent to prevent it from being used for evil? (don't ask why they couldn't just destroy it, this is just a fun backstory. Or maybe the Good energy/soul/whatever just happened to have the bad luck to inhabit the sword). The special qualities can be Unholy, combined with, say, at least 6 different bane qualities- Deathless, Outsider (good, Angel, Archon, Eladrin, Guardinal), and another +1 of something which is useless or negative to nonevil characters (if there's any other only-good Outsider subtype, that would be best). Oh, and don't give it any Intelligent-item special abilities, just lots of mental stats to ensure dominance.
That way it bestows negative levels on any Good character attempting to wield it, is only useful for attacking Good characters or creatures, and prevents any Evil creatures from using it (or Neutral creatures from using it for Evil ends). The only use I could see for it would be fighting an unusual Good outsider which had turned to evil and retained it's subtypes, which are exceedingly rare, and even then it'd have to be used by a Neutral character or accept a negative level.

I don't think this is the worst of the thread by any measure, but I think it's an idea that hasn't come up yet and an interesting one. I also made the full 200k price in special abilities only, and had the intelligence *on top of* that.

[NeoPhoenix0]

What about Quasi-Deity Bane?

Am i missing something or is it possible to have a humanoid bane weapon? The text just says type or subtype and the chart is just there for random generation.

Edit: I only see 3 Quasi-deities. Better yet electricity bane. The only creature I can find with the electricity subtype is the Song Dragon in Monsters of Faerun and there is only a dragon and an elemental series with the shadow subtype.

so a +1 deathless fiercebane electricity fiercebane quasi-deity fiercebane shadow fiercebane longsword. Need a +1 ability still.

It is moderately dangerous with an almost decent but not worth it critical against 2 dragons, a series of elementals, 3 quasi-deities, and a half dozen deathless.

Since deathless aren't subject to criticals, deathless fiercebane is bane that costs +2 that glows when a deathless is within 60 ft..

Further Edit: +1 deathless fiercebane electricity fiercebane quasi-deity fiercebane shadow fiercebane sundering longsword

Another Edit:Here is an interesting table I made for the cost of a mithral longsword
{table=head]Base Cost (gp)|Steel Weight (lbs)|Cost with Mithral (gp)|Mithral Weight (lbs)|Size of Intended Wielder

15|4|2015|2|Medium

30|8|4030|4|Large

60|16|8060|8|Huge

120|32|16120|16|Gargantuan

240|64|32240|32|Colossal

480|128|64480|64|Colossal+

960|256|128960|128|Colossal++[/table]
I think you might have to add 300 gp for making it masterwork.

So have a colossal++ +5 mithral longsword with 41.48 lbs of platinum (can't figure out the size if i use 414.8 lbs of gold) designs built into the blade (so they can't sell it without destroying the weapon.) It can't be reasonably wielded by a character, and even if it wasn't magical a shrink would only reduce it to huge.

128960+300+50000+41.48*500=200,000

[TuggyNE]

The weapon dissolves in sunlight (Drowcraft, Underdark pg.68)

How much does that cost?

[TypoNinja]

Am i missing something or is it possible to have a humanoid bane weapon? The text just says type or subtype and the chart is just there for random generation.

Yes but it needs to be a subtype, so Human, Goblinoid, Elf, Dwarf, ect.

Just like Outsiders the category of Humaniod is too broad, and is broken up into subgroups for balance. Lot like the Ranger Favored Enemy that way.

[Talderas]

Let's also analyze some of the bonuses that are being thrown around as just generally worthless, and should've been money bonuses. No particular order, but the truly worthless ones in my eyes are getting marked in red, mostly useless in green, and kinda-potentially useful in blue.

Keeper's Fang from Eberron Campaign Setting hops between truly worthless and mostly useless. First of all, it's a +4 enhancement. The benefit it confers is that any creature that is killed by the weapon has its soul trapped by the Keeper (no bringing back from the dead). Finally, it's an evil enchantment.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yes but it needs to be a subtype, so Human, Goblinoid, Elf, Dwarf, ect.

Just like Outsiders the category of Humaniod is too broad, and is broken up into subgroups for balance. Lot like the Ranger Favored Enemy that way.


Bane

A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table.

It doesn't say it needs a subtype. Unless it is stated somewhere else then the table for randomly determined bane weapons just contains suboptimal banes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It doesn't say it needs a subtype. Unless it is stated somewhere else then the table for randomly determined bane weapons just contains suboptimal banes.

Did you look at the table you roll on? All of the Outsider and Humanoid have subtypes, while things like Undead or Dragon don't.

[cerin616]

I wish the alignment sword would work, its just comedic to think of a sword only a true neutral character can use, but sadly there is no way to craft such a thing...

[Rubik]

I wish the alignment sword would work, its just comedic to think of a sword only a true neutral character can use, but sadly there is no way to craft such a thing...I'm fairly sure you could have multiple casters adding enhancements, one each for Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil.

[cerin616]

I'm fairly sure you could have multiple casters adding enhancements, one each for Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil.

Would it be a reasonable thing to add in? possibly.
Does it work by RAW? no.

MIC 233
"The character improving the magic item must meet the same prerequisites as if he were creating the item from scratch."

[Rubik]

Would it be a reasonable thing to add in? possibly.
Does it work by RAW? no.

MIC 233
"The character improving the magic item must meet the same prerequisites as if he were creating the item from scratch."There's always the Lawful Good succubus paladin.

[cerin616]

Ah the finagling of RAW...

I don't think she would be able to help here though. you need to be of the alignment to create an alignment effect, and you cant be more than one at once.

[eggynack]

Well, at the very least my augment crystal method continues to work. You can get a weapon that evil folks can't wield, without adding any difficulties with making it impossible for good folks to wield. Getting law and chaos on there is another issue, but you can at least get good and evil issues. Does anyone know a way to make a weapon specific to evil folks? I haven't really found anything, so it might be impossible.

[cerin616]

I really want to make the sword in the game though and name it something like "Passion Breaker" where it is focused on fighting anyone who feels strongly about things.

[eggynack]

I really want to make the sword in the game though and name it something like "Passion Breaker" where it is focused on fighting anyone who feels strongly about things.
This thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxK_nA2iVXw). It seems relevant.

[Drelua]

Couldn't someone make it by UMDing some scrolls? I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for a cleric to get a decent UMD modifier, or it could even have been made by a Beguiler since they get it as a class skill. I'm not sure though, can you use scrolls to craft items? I'm pretty sure you can in Pathfinder, but they changed a few things about magic item creation.

Edit: The Holy Axiomatic Anarchic Unholy sword I mean, just to be clear.

[cerin616]

Opinions? people still have those?

*draws sword*

EDIT:

Couldn't someone make it by UMDing some scrolls? I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for a cleric to get a decent UMD modifier, or it could even have been made by a Beguiler since they get it as a class skill. I'm not sure though, can you use scrolls to craft items? I'm pretty sure you can in Pathfinder, but they changed a few things about magic item creation.

Its not about being unable to use the spell or anything,b ut you must be lawful to create an axiomatic sword, you must be good to create a holy sword, you must be evil to create a corrupt sword, and you must be chaotic to create an anarchic sword. It is in the item creation prerequisites.

and so if you are lawful good you cant apply anarchic or corrupt to a weapon, and thus cant improve a weapon with either of those qualities.

Now, maybe if there is a way to remove the property temporarily somehow.... Come play grounders! let us finagle the rules!

[Lightlawbliss]

Opinions? people still have those?

*draws sword*

EDIT:


Its not about being unable to use the spell or anything,b ut you must be lawful to create an axiomatic sword, you must be good to create a holy sword, you must be evil to create a corrupt sword, and you must be chaotic to create an anarchic sword. It is in the item creation prerequisites.

and so if you are lawful good you cant apply anarchic or corrupt to a weapon, and thus cant improve a weapon with either of those qualities.

Now, maybe if there is a way to remove the property temporarily somehow.... Come play grounders! let us finagle the rules!

artificer + UMD to fake having an alignment while you are the oposite, what that work?

[AlexanderRM]

Ah the finagling of RAW...

I don't think she would be able to help here though. you need to be of the alignment to create an alignment effect, and you cant be more than one at once.

I would say a Concordant Killer should be able to qualify (although sadly they don't actually have all four alignment subtypes as I'd heard), although I don't see why they would since they get such a sword automatically, and they'd have trouble getting the spellcasting.

[Drelua]

I'm pretty sure alignment subtypes would work. As long as there's a creature out there with two alignment subtypes and the ability to cast those spells/use those scrolls, all you need is a caster that can manage that creature's Will Save and cast Mindrape. Oh, and he has to be crazy enough to expend considerable resources to make a terribly useless sword. It's not a likely scenario, but it's entirely possible that it happened sometime in the last few millennia.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Did you look at the table you roll on? All of the Outsider and Humanoid have subtypes, while things like Undead or Dragon don't.

Allow me to clarify. I am talking strict RAW right now. Tables mean nothing unless the text references them. The text only references the table for random generation of bane weapons. Therefore by RAW you can craft a humanoid bane weapon, outsider bane weapon, evil bane weapon, or fire bane weapon just fine.

Edit: on the anarchic axiomatic holy unholy sword front, what if the crafter crafted an +1 axiomatic unholy longsword and then was sanctified and driven mad. He then improves it to be +1 anarchic axiomatic holy unholy longsword.

It would probably be best if it was an ancient sword with a great history behind it.

[Courier6]

How much does that cost?
It's a +1 enchantment that also gives +2 to damage and attack in a specific underdark city.

[nedz]

No madness required — He could just don a Ring of Opposite Alignment; but then he wouldn't qualify to have made the item in the first place and so cannot enchant it further.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's a +1 enchantment that also gives +2 to damage and attack in a specific underdark city.Actually, it gives a +2 luck bonus to the weapon if it's in an area of faerzress or in an earth node.


No madness required — He could just don a Ring of Opposite Alignment; but then he wouldn't qualify to have made the item in the first place and so cannot enchant it further.

Would Hellbred's Evil Exception come in handy here?

[NeoPhoenix0]

No madness required — He could just don a Ring of Opposite Alignment; but then he wouldn't qualify to have made the item in the first place and so cannot enchant it further.

You can improve any item/weapon you created. You don't have to qualify to create it in order to improve it. In this case the biggest problem is the spells are all in the alignment domains so you probably want to hire clerics to provide the spells.

[TypoNinja]

You can improve any item/weapon you created. You don't have to qualify to create it in order to improve it. In this case the biggest problem is the spells are all in the alignment domains so you probably want to hire clerics to provide the spells.

You just aren't paying attention are you? You need to qualify to create it in order to improve it, somebody said so, just a few posts ago.


MIC 233
"The character improving the magic item must meet the same prerequisites as if he were creating the item from scratch."

Also, the bane list shows you can't have a "humanoid" bane.


To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table.

The table is a complete listing of acceptable targets.

While there is no line saying something nice and definitive as "You may only choose these", using the table as an example we can see that it is intended that you pick a subtype to match up with the extremely large Outsider and Humanoid Types.

And its easy to see why, such choices would be too good. With categories so large why would you ever choose any others?

Its only ambiguous if you ignore common sense, the idea of Outsider Bane weapons fails the ballistic source book test.

Also, there are printed adventures with weapons in them that have more than one bane, for example my favorite adventure includes a bow with both Chaotic Outsider Bane and Evil Outsider Bane. This would be completely redundant if it were possible to make an Outsider Bane weapon. RAW example of subtyped Outsider Bane over Typed Outsider Bane.

[eggynack]

It's obvious that the RAI supports the idea of humanoid bane being illegal, but it seems to be alright according to the RAW. If you're crafting a weapon, you're not randomly choosing the type of creature, so that text does not apply.

[TypoNinja]

It's obvious that the RAI supports the idea of humanoid bane being illegal, but it seems to be alright according to the RAW. If you're crafting a weapon, you're not randomly choosing the type of creature, so that text does not apply.

You're applying the "It doesn't say I can't" kind of logic, which doesn't work. There's no rule forbidding you to set things on fire with your mind, you wouldn't claim that ability would you?

Or look at it the other way, there is a list of bane types, where is the rule saying you are allowed to pick? By Strict RAW you must use the random table since there is no text saying you get to pick what its Bane against.

[Rubik]

It's obvious that the RAI supports the idea of humanoid bane being illegal, but it seems to be alright according to the RAW. If you're crafting a weapon, you're not randomly choosing the type of creature, so that text does not apply.Plus, having to pick subtypes of humanoids suck, since you're bound to fight a wide variety of humanoids in a lot of games, and if you only fight three or four humans in such a campaign, Humanoid Bane would be damned near worthless.

[edit] Not to mention that you could pick up everything-bane for about 4k off the raptor arrows in the MIC.

[TypoNinja]

Plus, having to pick subtypes of humanoids suck, since you're bound to fight a wide variety of humanoids in a lot of games, and if you only fight three or four humans in such a campaign, Humanoid Bane would be damned near worthless.

[edit] Not to mention that you could pick up everything-bane for about 4k off the raptor arrows in the MIC.

Like Favored Enemy, Bane is something you are supposed to work with your DM on, not pick blindly. What kind of campaign you are running will influence your choices. A game consisting mostly of random dungeon crawls is going to need different choices that a site based adventure, where you never leave one city.

This is kind of off the point though, if the idea is to make the least useful weapon clearly we don't want Humanoid or Outsider bane anyway.

[mattie_p]

OK, so this is my first stab at this.

+1 Skillful (CArc 144, +2) Sparkling (DotU 96, +2) Revealing (MIC 42, +1) Masterslaying (BoVD 112, +1) Morphing (MIC 39 +1) Last Resort (CW 135, +1). Throw in Sizing from MIC for an extra 5000 gp if you like.

It grants proficiency with it, makes the enemy glow with faerie fire for 5 rounds when struck (useful only against invis foes), can change form into any other one-handed weapon (I guess useful against certain DR), has a grapple bonus that can't be used as its not light, and can be turned against you.

EEP: One short. I have it in my notes, Sundering (+1, SRD). So you can destroy all the other weapons you might grab instead.

[NeoPhoenix0]

You just aren't paying attention are you? You need to qualify to create it in order to improve it, somebody said so, just a few posts ago.


Also, the bane list shows you can't have a "humanoid" bane.



The table is a complete listing of acceptable targets.

While there is no line saying something nice and definitive as "You may only choose these", using the table as an example we can see that it is intended that you pick a subtype to match up with the extremely large Outsider and Humanoid Types.

And its easy to see why, such choices would be too good. With categories so large why would you ever choose any others?

Its only ambiguous if you ignore common sense, the idea of Outsider Bane weapons fails the ballistic source book test.

Also, there are printed adventures with weapons in them that have more than one bane, for example my favorite adventure includes a bow with both Chaotic Outsider Bane and Evil Outsider Bane. This would be completely redundant if it were possible to make an Outsider Bane weapon. RAW example of subtyped Outsider Bane over Typed Outsider Bane.


You're applying the "It doesn't say I can't" kind of logic, which doesn't work. There's no rule forbidding you to set things on fire with your mind, you wouldn't claim that ability would you?

Or look at it the other way, there is a list of bane types, where is the rule saying you are allowed to pick? By Strict RAW you must use the random table since there is no text saying you get to pick what its Bane against.

I'll give you the improvement argument. I didn't notice that sentence.

This is not a case of it doesn't say i can't. This is a case of it says i can have a weapon the targets type or subtype. It does not further limit the choice of types or subtypes. The chart is only mentioned as a why to generate random banes. It says i can have a type bane weapon so i have a humanoid bane weapon. It does not restrict any types or subtypes.

The list makes it clear that it is intended to only target humanoid subtypes, but it doesn't say that. If anyone isn't paying attention it's you i stated i was looking at strict RAW.

As for creating horrible weapons, using subtypes not listed is kinda the point. It lead me to the idea of the +1 deathless fiercebane electricity fiercebane quasi-deity fiercebane shadow fiercebane sundering longsword idea, which i think is a pretty good try at making a horrible weapon.

[TuggyNE]

It's a +1 enchantment that also gives +2 to damage and attack in a specific underdark city.

It's tempting, especially since it only displaces one of the spellblades, but I think I'll give it a miss this time. +2 luck attack/damage is too nice, even potentially, for the Sword of Great Mediocrity. *coughacornoffartravelcough*

[TypoNinja]

snippy.

I still think you are making a leap to assume that, and being selectively strict.

You say strict RAW lets you make a bane Humanoid weapon (I don't agree, since the text is so brief its lacking a lot of detail), but then stop using strict RAW to let you choose. I think if you want to go strict RAW to the exclusion of even common sense you need to stick with it. Nowhere in Bane's text did it give you permission to do anything other than randomly generate a Type. It never mentions choosing the Type of bane at creation, by strict RAW you can only randomly generate Banes.

If you are going to allow common sense and RAI long enough to pick your Type, you need to allow the same, that you are not supposed to get Bane's that are that broad. You can't take one clause as super strict, then the next as not. Your standards for rule interpretation should be consistent.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I'm going to break down the text and my argument piece by piece, then I am going to blatantly ignore all further arguments because you seem to be taking this way to personally and we are unlikely to see eye to eye so it would be pointless. Let us take a +1 (insert foe) bane longsword.


Bane

A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature...

Ok, here we see that bane targets a type or subtype of creature. So we replace the word foe in the sword above and have +1 (insert type or subtype) bane longsword.


...Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus...

Here we see that against (insert type or subtype) this weapon is a +3 longsword.


...It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe...

Now it also deals an extra 2d6 damage to (insert type or subtype) in addition to the +3 enhancement bonus and bonus from strength.


...Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition...

Projectile weapons confer the bonus on their projectiles. This doesn't concern our sword.


...To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table.(Table can be seen here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane))

We can randomly determine the foe this weapon targets with this table. In RAW text always trumps table. This was arbitrarily determined because tables and text often disagree and errata often favors the text. I think it might be stated somewhere that text trumps table too but I'm not sure. This table seems to violate the type or subtype clause in the text with type and subtype pairings. In RAW we must consider all definitions of words. "Or" can mean one, the other, or both; or can also mean one or the other but not both. The second definition must be used in D&D because if we used the first definition many classes would get a large number of abilities at certain levels. A human humanoid bane weapon is against the rules in RAW. You can have a humanoid bane weapon or a human bane weapon. Our +1 (insert type or subtype) longsword must have a type as a foe or a subtype as a foe. what types and subtypes are available are not limited anywhere in the text.

Finally when talking RAW it is convention to consider the DM as a text file containing all the rules written in books. nothing more and nothing less. Is this useful for actual game play? No, much of the discussion on these forums is a bunch of thought exercises to determine how much WotC fail in their mission to create a balanced game that makes sense. The discussions are also useful for creating your groups own set of house rules to make a playable and enjoyable game. Would I ever use a humanoid bane weapon in an actual game? No. Can I have one according to the text? I think so, but like many things in RAW it could be much clearer.

I apologize if i came across as condescending or patronizing that was not my intention.

edit: forgot to mention if you ignore interpreting the definition of "or" you have to use all the definitions and human humanoid still fails to satisfy all definitions.

[Knaight]

Now, maybe if there is a way to remove the property temporarily somehow.... Come play grounders! let us finagle the rules!
Warlock's have an ability that lets them craft items they totally aren't qualified for. That could work.

[Icewraith]

Othar Swordvassen, Gentleman's Adventuring BladeIntelligent +1 longsword
Minimum int, wis. Cha: lots.
Special Purpose: Destroy all magic items.
Abilities:
At will: Detect Magic, tongues
3/day: Disjunction
3/day: Gate (Balor), command "Destroy all magic items in this area."
Telepathy (maximum range possible)
Speech
One rank in all knowledge skills.
Othar barrages all intelligent beings in the area with an endless telepathic stream of near-useless trivia.

The sword's special abilities are designed to be as potentially self-destructive and annoying as possible. Upon detecting any sort of magical item or aura, Othar will immediately attempt to snuff it out. Any adventurer attempting to use these abilities against a foe cannot be wearing any magical items himself or Other will attempt to disjoin them, or any allies who wander within range of Othar's aura. IIRC detect magic's maximum range may still put the wielder and Othar within Disjunction's area.

The sword makes it presence and purpose known telepathically to all intelligent beings within range and hearing, eliminating the possiblity of surprise and stealth on the part of the wielder.

Othar is still a magic item and is ineligible for Vow of Poverty users. The vast majority of monsters do not actually use magical items, so Othar will not use his abilities against such foes. His wielder is likely to be the first person attacked should he summon a Balor. However, since the sword announces itself to everyone within range, it is almost impossible to pawn off to an unsuspecting paragon of virtue or evil, anyone approaching the stronghold of a powerful adventurer with this sword is likely to be killed on sight.

Numbers may need to be adjusted to fit under 200k gp, but you all get the idea.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Warlock's have an ability that lets them craft items they totally aren't qualified for. That could work.

I think that only works for spell requirements. However, artificer can ignore alignment requirements with a UMD check.

[nedz]

Warlock's have an ability that lets them craft items they totally aren't qualified for. That could work.

Imbue Item (Su) Warlock 12 CArc p8
Only allows the warlock to obviate the need to cast any spells which may be required — nothing else.

[TuggyNE]

Othar Swordvassen, Gentleman's Adventuring BladeIntelligent +1 longsword

Oh my, this definitely wins the "best name/concept" award. :smallbiggrin:

Sad thing, though, is that it would work just fine for SKR's interpretation of PF VoP: "one … of some value", meaning "one magic item of arbitrary value, cheesed to the max". Also, [I]Nystul's magic aura neatly avoids that troublesome detect magic, at the cost of considerable annoyance.

[Icewraith]

I specifically didn't give it spellcraft ranks, so it can't tell the difference between buffs, persistent effects, naturally occurring magical auras, and magic items.

There must be a way around the Nystul's Magic Aura thing. Does Arcane Sight work without spellcraft ranks?

It may not have contrary enchantments, but it is a sword that talks telepathically endlessly, ruins stealth and attempts at diplomacy, has a good shot at disjoining itself and everything else in the area or calling a Balor down on the wielder with badly-worded commands. Even if you use mind blank to try and escape its telepathy if it's got uses per day left it'll attempt to disjoin everything in the area. It would make a great cursed item, but we're not using the cursed item rules and as a cursed item it would need to be less self-destructive in order to prolong the curse.

While yes, you can use it as a +1 longsword, it has no other enhancement bonuses and its very presence is harmful to the bearer. Considering the number of counterspells, nystul's magic auras, banishments, and the like you would need to keep the sword around "safely", it probably has negative GP value. Safely negating the sword's baseline offensive abilities wihout destroying it costs six ninth-level spell slots per day, at which you have essentially paid six 9th level spell slots for persistent detect magic without the ability to identify detected auras, and you have just angered the least intelligent telepathic sword on the planet. Note that if I remember the item rules correctly, with a sky-high cha and no int or wis to speak of, the sword has very high save dcs and a poor will save, and either a very small or no bonus or perhaps even a penalty on knowledge checks. Evening out the cha and wis results in a more durable sword.

Also note that I'm pretty sure it's impossible for spellcasters to rest with this thing in telepathy range. However, planting it in an enemy's stronghold is unwise, as the sword will most likely give the inhabitants its current location and the identities of the people who placed it there, makes audible noise, and can be triangulated via the range of its telepathy.

Alternatively you could have the +1 longsword of disintegration. On command word ("yes"), the longsword attempts to disintegrate itself, as per the spell, n uses per day at m caster level, where n is the number of uses and m is the caster level required to stay under 200k. However, while this sword is likely only to negate its value and cost the wielder 200k gp, Othar is likely to destroy half of the character's other gear and sic a Balor on him before he can get rid of it or the sword accidentally destroys itself before completing its intended purpose.

[ArqArturo]

Alternatively you could have the +1 longsword of disintegration. On command word (yes), the longsword attempts to disintegrate itself, as per the spell, n uses per day at m caster level, where n is the number of uses and m is the caster level required to stay under 200k. However, while this sword is likely only to negate its value and cost the wielder 200k gp, Othar is likely to destroy half of the character's other gear and sic a Balor on him before he can get rid of it or the sword accidentally destroys itself before completing its intended purpose.

If someone were to craft that item for me, well, I'll quote someone else from the WoTC forums:

There will be hell to pay. In an hell-paying installment system which makes the Abyssal tax system look more reasonable than a Mechanus Vending Machine Golem Paragon.

[Icewraith]

If we could break the 200k gp ceiling you could have a +1 longsword of chained disintegrate. The longsword targets itself and 4-5 targets in the area (such as the wielder, the 10-foot cube of matter the wielder is standing on, and anyone adjacent.)

Edit: I suppose you could also call it a "+1 Disintegrating Longsword", but that's a little more obvious.

[TuggyNE]

There must be a way around the Nystul's Magic Aura thing. Does Arcane Sight work without spellcraft ranks?

Nope. Nystul's magic aura changes the apparent school, and can't be detected without identify or analyze dweomer.


Considering the number of counterspells, nystul's magic auras, banishments, and the like you would need to keep the sword around "safely", it probably has negative GP value.

Well, if you burn out its capabilities at the beginning of every day by using a few eternal wands of mage armor out of range, wandering into range, and then repeating the process, it'll probably be manageable. The need for Nystul's magic aura castings and balor handling is still pretty annoying.

[Erik Vale]

If someone were to craft that item for me, well, I'll quote someone else from the WoTC forums:

There will be hell to pay. In an hell-paying installment system which makes the Abyssal tax system look more reasonable than a Mechanus Vending Machine Golem Paragon.


I know your quoteing someone else, but can I sig that?

[Icewraith]

Nope. Nystul's magic aura changes the apparent school, and can't be detected without identify or analyze dweomer.



Well, if you burn out its capabilities at the beginning of every day by using a few eternal wands of mage armor out of range, wandering into range, and then repeating the process, it'll probably be manageable. The need for Nystul's magic aura castings and balor handling is still pretty annoying.

It alerts everyone within hearing/telepathy distance to your presence and will annoy anyone within that range in short order. It requires special handling, several eternal wands, and dealing with Balor attacks just to function as a +1 longsword with detect magic for a day. It is trained in a bunch of knowledge skills but has no bonus to speak of on rolls. Since it doesn't shut up it's likely casters will be unable to rest and regain spells within range, but trying to use this against an opposing spellcaster is almost guaranteed to fail horribly because of the nature of the sword.

Is it possible to make this thing hinder the wielder significantly more without being outright malicious (like the Disintegrating Longsword)? I was thinking of casting Solid Fog or similar centered on the object but that is very tactically useful with Freedom of Movement.

[ArqArturo]

I know your quoteing someone else, but can I sig that?

I guess you can, just make sure it was taken from the WoTC forums, to avoid confusion :smallbiggrin:.

[Phaederkiel]

I think we can still explore the ability to give feats via the sword.

a) there are some feats which are absolutely useless (as in: putting for example some weapon specific feat upon it which cannot be use with a longsword)

b) I think there should be really awful feat combinations, which neatly make any character who has the sword worse off than dead. The abberation feats that make fat, for example, or something like tomb-tainted soul, etc.
The true masterpiece would be to get VoP upon a cursed sword...

[eggynack]

Is there a RAW way to give feats to a sword? I don't think that a logical pricing structure, or equivalencies with other items, is enough justification.

[137beth]

Is there a RAW way to give feats to a sword? I don't think that a logical pricing structure, or equivalencies with other items, is enough justification.

Agreed: feats are not all equal. I'd be perfectly happy allowing a bonus-feat-granting item in my home games, but the price would have to be determined based on how powerful it actually was, not based on what a supposed generic "bonus feat price" was. And that isn't really relevant to a RAW forum debate (plus, if we are allowed to set price estimates based on power/what makes sense, then this entire discussion would be moot:smalltongue:)

[Lightlawbliss]

Agreed: feats are not all equal. I'd be perfectly happy allowing a bonus-feat-granting item in my home games, but the price would have to be determined based on how powerful it actually was, not based on what a supposed generic "bonus feat price" was. And that isn't really relevant to a RAW forum debate (plus, if we are allowed to set price estimates based on power/what makes sense, then this entire discussion would be moot:smalltongue:)

If we used anything even remotely resembling real economics, this discussion is moot. At that point, we would be quickly at the least valuable thing that someone values at 200,000 gp.

[137beth]

If we used anything even remotely resembling real economics, this discussion is moot. At that point, we would be quickly at the least valuable thing that someone values at 200,000 gp.

Who said anything about real economics:smallconfused:?

[NeoPhoenix0]

If there was a RAW way to have a sword grant a feat I would just post a sword that granted the feat Elf. Assuming there was a way to get around prerequisites. Elf is an april fools feat from either online or dragon mag. It's prerequisite is kobold. It turns you into an elf and then a pack of kobolds appear and kill you. It also has a special text that says you can't take the feat on purpose. This sword would be a good way to do it, and a sword that kill it's wielder when picked up would be pretty bad no matter how good it was otherwise.

[TuggyNE]

If there was a RAW way to have a sword grant a feat I would just post a sword that granted the feat Elf. Assuming there was a way to get around prerequisites. Elf is an april fools feat from either online or dragon mag. It's prerequisite is kobold. It turns you into an elf and then a pack of kobolds appear and kill you. It also has a special text that says you can't take the feat on purpose. This sword would be a good way to do it, and a sword that kill it's wielder when picked up would be pretty bad no matter how good it was otherwise.

Make the sword polymorph you first, possibly using Bluff/Disguise or something to pretend it's more awesome. Then doom!