Low-Level One-Shot Feats

[BowStreetRunner]

A while back I came across an interview with one of the designers of 3rd edition (I don't remember which one) where he mentioned that some of the feats which people consider sub-optimal were actually left over from early play-testing where they were considered much stronger due to the play-test games being low-level one-shots.

This got me thinking. Which feats would go up in relative power-level if you knew you were building a low-level character for a one-shot game and not expecting to go past third-level before retiring the character? What feats would decline in value?

Right off the top of my head, Feats like Toughness and Open Minded become a lot better while Improved Toughness and Nymph's Kiss both go down in the rankings a bit.

[Fouredged Sword]

Toughness would be worth it for low HD characters at level one, maybe.

[Uncle Pine]

Weapon Focus could actually be useful in a world where adventurer are 1st level only. However, I think Skill Focus would still be really bad.
Power Attack would become nearly useless, mainly because at 1st level the difference between a good fighter and a dead fighter is the size of his weapon. For the same reason, Toughness wouldn't still be significant against a greatsword, but it could be at least useful against a rat.

[Miscast_Mage]

Torch and Weapon (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeonscape--63/weapon-and-torch--3101/) seems like a decent feat for someone who was going to fight one-handed anyway, essentially getting a free +1d6 fire damage, and 1d4 rounds of dazzle(same as flare spell, I assume? :smallconfused:). The kicker is that it has to a full action, which makes it a waste as soon as you get iterative attacks.

Dirty fighting is in a similar vein, from what I recall; +1d4 damage for a single attack made as a full action.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Those feats from either Complete Arcane or Mage that grant you a few low level SLAs 1/day. They'd become much more useful then.

[Barsoom]

Low-level one-shot? Well, all metamagic and item creation feats go to the dustbin. Power Attack isn't useful by itself, but I see it being taken if only as a prereq for Cleave (Fighter vs. two Orcs is a fairly common scenario).

All Wizards are Martial Wizards, replacing Scribe Scroll with a fighter bonus feat (Improved Initiative, duh).

Toughness is actually not bad, I can see it taken a lot on level 1 one-shots. A 4 hp mage has a 50% chance to drop from a random goblin arrow hit (99.5% on a crit), and a 3-hp cushion goes a long way.

And since spellcasters have so few spells per day, reserve feats are pretty good - Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, etc.

If it's a one-shot and characters aren't expected to use the loot they get, Improved Sunder becomes a lot better.

[Karnith]

Low-level one-shot? Well, all metamagic [...] feats go to the dustbin.
Well, not entirely. Easy Metamagic (or, if Dragon content is banned, the much weaker Metamagic School Focus) combined with Fell Drain means that you can get mini-Enervations out of your spell slots; a Fell Drained Sonic Snap is basically a no-save-just-die for most enemies you'd face at first level.

The trick gets much worse afterwards, of course, though the feats are acceptable and nowhere near as sub-optimal as, say, Toughness.

[Barsoom]

You're right, I forgot the Fell Drain + Sonic Snap trick.

Having said that, most enemies that are not immune to Energy Drain are also not immune to Mind Affecting, and you might as well pop them with a Color Spray - which has the advantage of being able to catch several enemies at once.

[CRtwenty]

Weapon Focus could actually be useful in a world where adventurer are 1st level only. However, I think Skill Focus would still be really bad.

Who needs Skill Focus when you could take something like Stealthy that gives you a bonus to two skills. Now that's OP. :smallamused:

[Fouredged Sword]

Sonic snap offers exactly zero chance at survival though. Color spray has at least a 1/20 chance of not knocking something out, and probibly more like a 25% chance of not working.

Assume a save DC of 17 (10+spell level+18 stat+Focus)

A good save and 10 stat means a 25% chance of making that save.

A good save and a good stat means a 50% chance of making that save (dwarf cleric with an 18 wis)

Not odds I want to deal with in a world where I have 6 HP.

[BowStreetRunner]

All of this discussion of save DCs makes me wonder how much better Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes are at this level? Is +2 to one save worth a feat now?

[Barsoom]

Sonic snap offers exactly zero chance at survival though. Color spray has at least a 1/20 chance of not knocking something out, and probibly more like a 25% chance of not working.

Assume a save DC of 17 (10+spell level+18 stat+Focus)

A good save and 10 stat means a 25% chance of making that save.

A good save and a good stat means a 50% chance of making that save (dwarf cleric with an 18 wis)

Not odds I want to deal with in a world where I have 6 HP.You're right, but Sonic Snap is less great on a 2+ HD creatures. I mean, still good, but it's just not the same. Also, only affects one enemy. Color Spray has a good chance to win outright vs. a single 4 HD enemy, as well as fell several 1 HD enemies. It's just this much more versatile.

[CRtwenty]

All of this discussion of save DCs makes me wonder how much better Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes are at this level? Is +2 to one save worth a feat now?

Probably not. There's very little at first level that usually requires you to make a saving throw anyway so you'd be better served taking something more active.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
Right off the top of my head, Feats like Toughness and Open Minded become a lot better while Improved Toughness and Nymph's Kiss both go down in the rankings a bit.

For a very low-level character, Dauntless is great. It's from Player's Guide to Faerûn, p. 37. Five extra hit points on your first-level sorcerer can do him a world of good.

Also, Luck of Heroes (same book, p. 40) gives a +1 to all saving throws and a +1 to AC, which is a nice combo for a first- or second-level character.

[Chronos]

Quoth Barsoom:

And since spellcasters have so few spells per day, reserve feats are pretty good - Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, etc.
Except that they all require at least 2nd-level spells as a prereq. So in order to use them at all, you'd need Precocious Apprentice or some other early-entry trick.

[BowStreetRunner]

Except that they all require at least 2nd-level spells as a prereq. So in order to use them at all, you'd need Precocious Apprentice or some other early-entry trick.

With flaws, a human character could start with up to four feats. Taking Precocious Apprentice with Melf's Acid Arrow and the Acidic Splatter reserve feat would give you a 2d6 orb of acid with a 10 ft range and still leave you up to two feats.

[Barsoom]

Except that they all require at least 2nd-level spells as a prereq.The thread's title is "low-level", not "first level". Level 3 is still pretty darn low.

[BowStreetRunner]

Level 3 is still pretty darn low.

Yep. As I said.


...building a low-level character for a one-shot game and not expecting to go past third-level before retiring the character?

[Venger]

A while back I came across an interview with one of the designers of 3rd edition (I don't remember which one) where he mentioned that some of the feats which people consider sub-optimal were actually left over from early play-testing where they were considered much stronger due to the play-test games being low-level one-shots.

This got me thinking. Which feats would go up in relative power-level if you knew you were building a low-level character for a one-shot game and not expecting to go past third-level before retiring the character? What feats would decline in value?

Right off the top of my head, Feats like Toughness and Open Minded become a lot better while Improved Toughness and Nymph's Kiss both go down in the rankings a bit.

shape soulmeld, martial study, and hidden talent all become much more attractive in a lvl 1 oneshot. airstep sandals are a pretty huge deal when no one else can fly yet, especially in tandem with expanded soulmeld capacity.

fey mysteries initiate (or whatever wizards use to get int to HP at lvl 1) becomes viable.

[ericgrau]

Skill focus can work under campaign or environment specific circumstances. Climb, concentration, diplomacy, disable device, disguise, handle animal, ride, survival, swim, tumble, use magic device. If you're constantly making several checks (in the right plot), heck ya it's worth it. I've heard of swim with one DM. All the recent low level animal optimizing shennanigans (or legitimate pets too) take handle animal checks just to make it attack, and training it is almost a pipe dream. Concentration is for close range casters, though there's also combat casting. UMD for level 1 wands & scrolls of course. Etc. As you get to higher levels the DCs don't really scale much on these particular skills, so they aren't worth optimizing as much anymore. And because this is for such specific circumstances the double skill feats are usually worse.

At +25% to +60% hp and the scariness that is level 1, toughness really is the best in the PHB. Good at level 2 as well, and depending on splatbooks it might be ok as far as level 5 or 6.

Besides one shots, feats from this thread can matter when retraining is allowed.

[Kuulvheysoon]

At +25% to +60% hp and the scariness that is level 1, toughness really is the best in the PHB. Good at level 2 as well, and depending on splatbooks it might be ok as far as level 5 or 6.

Besides one shots, feats from this thread can matter when retraining is allowed.

Toughness is good at levels 1-3. Anything beyond that, Improved Toughness blows it out of the water (exception: as a prerequisite).

[ericgrau]

Yeup, "depending on splatbooks". But if you're making a core level 5 melee guy for a one shot, you take 1 or 2 feats then toughness for all the rest of your feats. Well, unless you're more worried about boredom.

[elonin]

At first level skill focus UMD can be useful. 4 ranks+3 skill focus +2 stat guarantees not missing your UMD check to use a wand by 10 points or more.

[Saintheart]

All of this discussion of save DCs makes me wonder how much better Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes are at this level? Is +2 to one save worth a feat now?

While Conviction is a level one spell, no.

[ericgrau]

Oh conviction got errata'd to be permanent and/or take an immediate action to cast?
Honestly buffs and defenses are called all powerful for the sake of a witty discussion response, and yet most are the worst spells there are.

Anyway the save feats aren't any better at level 1 because even though they are permanent you only roll so many saves at any level. Now in an anti-mindflayer campaign, I said heck ya take iron will.

[Chronos]

If you're level 1-3 in an anti-mindflayer campaign, then your best feat is one that lets you get your head between your legs, to kiss your butt goodbye.

[ericgrau]

Lol, guess I should have clarified our level. Though it was only a couple more. A smidgen of mercy in the monsters for such fragile PCs may be why major saves are rare at low level, and the save feats might be even worse.

[Roguenewb]

Skill Focus gets pretty hot actually at level 1 if your character is focused on one skill. Even in a best case scenario it gives like a +36% increase to your bonus. For off class skills with middling mods, it gives like +100%. Hide for example, or gods forbid, Truenaming.

Toughness as has been said. The +2/+2s are more attractive, particularly stealthy. Martial Study gets pretty damn awesome. All the feats from later books that let you "sample" the mechanic are vastly improved because you won't be that far behind normal users of the mechanic.

I've played in a level one campaign where a player used the Precocious Apprentice/Reserve feat trick, and it is quite strong at that level. He used the fire one and was throwing mini-fireballs around way in excess of anyone else.

[BowStreetRunner]

I would guess that, since your total attack bonus is going to be fairly low, low-level combat is going to be more heavily reliant on high die rolls. Since hitting at all will be a bit more chancy, anything that takes advantage of the action economy and gives more attacks would improve your chances of killing an enemy far more than in later levels. Also, since DR is rare at levels 1-3 there is less advantage in focusing on single, powerful attacks and more advantage in multiple attacks. So feats like Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Rapid Shot, and Two-Weapon Fighting all remain strong. Power attack gets nerfed also because you are limited by your BAB. Spirited Charge is just a waste of 3 feats for a very limited chance to do extra damage.