[3.P] Class Customization Idea

[Drelua]

I might be DMing E6 game for a group of only two soon, and neither of them are very good at all with the rules. I'm worried they might have trouble covering all their bases, so I had an idea to let them pick a class and customize it. It's a bit similar to gestalt, but simpler and not as powerful. Basically, I'd let them choose two of the following:

-2 extra skill ranks per level and 3 class skills, chosen freely, max of 8+INT/level. May be chosen twice.
-increase hit die by one step, to a max of d12. May be chosen twice.
-Increase BAB by one step. May only be chosen once.

This is mostly just an idea, and I can see some imbalance between the options, but I think it'll help them without overwhelming them since they can barely even make normal character. Do you guys think it could work? Do you think the options should be changed, or maybe think some should be added?

I'd also appreciate any general advice on DMing for a small group. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Fouredged Sword]

Here is what I would do.

Pick one.

1/2 progression of sorcerer magic
1/2 progression of wizard magic
Full Bab, +2 con
2 domains as a cleric of HD, cast 1st and 2nd level spell from domain 1 per domain per day.
2 extra skill points and the able learner feat.

[Drelua]

Here is what I would do.

Pick one.

1/2 progression of sorcerer magic
1/2 progression of wizard magic
Full Bab, +2 con
2 domains as a cleric of HD, cast 1st and 2nd level spell from domain 1 per domain per day.
2 extra skill points and the able learner feat.

I kind of like the idea of giving magic, but I'm not sure it's a good idea for this group. Every time one of them wants to cast a spell, they start flipping through the book. :smallannoyed: I do like your domain idea, though.

I can't quite remember what Able Learner does, but isn't it useless with the Pathfinder skill system? I probably should have specified that we use Pathfinder as a base with 3.5 content pretty much always allowed. I'm also not sure I like the +2 CON, although I was thinking of merging the BAB and HD. It's also much more powerful to give full BAB to a Wizard than a Rogue, although I guess that's a much smaller difference in E6.

What if I switched it to this list, still pick two:

-BAB and HD up one step
-2 skill points and 3 class skills (unless able learner does work with Pathfinder, then I might use that)
-Casting as a Bard, Inquisitor or Magus; this seems more elegant since it goes up every level. Not sure how Magus would work, though.
-Gain one domain. Gain domain spell of a level equal to half your ECL (minimum 1) once per day, level below that (if applicable) 3/day, and below that at will. I'd have to be careful with an at will level 1 spell, but I don't think it would be too powerful at level 6. Domain powers would function normally.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I kind of like the idea of giving magic, but I'm not sure it's a good idea for this group. Every time one of them wants to cast a spell, they start flipping through the book. :smallannoyed: I do like your domain idea, though.

I can't quite remember what Able Learner does, but isn't it useless with the Pathfinder skill system? I probably should have specified that we use Pathfinder as a base with 3.5 content pretty much always allowed. I'm also not sure I like the +2 CON, although I was thinking of merging the BAB and HD. It's also much more powerful to give full BAB to a Wizard than a Rogue, although I guess that's a much smaller difference in E6.

What if I switched it to this list, still pick two:

-BAB and HD up one step
-2 skill points and 3 class skills (unless able learner does work with Pathfinder, then I might use that)
-Casting as a Bard, Inquisitor or Magus; this seems more elegant since it goes up every level. Not sure how Magus would work, though.
-Gain one domain. Gain domain spell of a level equal to half your ECL (minimum 1) once per day, level below that (if applicable) 3/day, and below that at will. I'd have to be careful with an at will level 1 spell, but I don't think it would be too powerful at level 6. Domain powers would function normally.

Actually BAB is better on a rogue since most spells depend on caster level for accuracy rather than BAB. Plus many spells don't even need caster levels for accuracy because it's auto-hit.

As for your ideas, it seems good.
But if it's only 2 players who don't know how to build characters or play that well yet, you probably should given them some pretty powerful buffs. Expecially if you're sending CR equal to their average party level at them since the game is design to have a group of 4.

Though you might also get some good ideas off of the Generic Classes in Unearthed Arcana.
I'm also working on a class that focuses in allowing characters to grow more and be more advanced.

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15476998#post15476998)

For your ideas make sure if to keep HD at a maximum of d12, a barbarian with hd16 would be ridiculous :P.
And I would have domain spells be unlocked the same time a Cleric would learn to cast it for balance sake and so there's a table for the players to follow.

Edit: Also note, if you're having simplify spells like this because they wouldn't understand spells. Either be very careful with the monsters they face or give them a **** ton of gold/magic items, way more than usual.

Because there are many enemies who need magic to kill them pretty much.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, in E6 the difference between 1/2 and 3/4bab is the equivalent to a feat (weapon focus). Full BAB, and Full BAB alone gets you the prized iterative attack.

Maybe replace the spellcasting progression options with SLA's. You get 3/day uses of a single 1st level spell and 2/day uses of a second level spell, and know two cantrips that can have unlimited use.

Cantrips at 1st level, 1 use of a 1st level spell for levels 2, 3, and 4, and a use of a second level SLA at 5 and 6.

This prevents book diving because the spell is pre-selected.

[Drelua]

Gwazi, good point about the BAB, I hadn't thought of that. I guess none of the low BAB classes really make a lot of attack rolls. There probably won't be a lot of combat in this campaign anyway; one of the players really doesn't like it that much. I'll check out that class when I'm not on my phone at work. :smallsmile: Oh, and I'll be sure to keep everything at it's normal max. Although a rogue with 12+int skills would be pretty sweet...

Fouredged Sword, isn't average BAB 4 at level 6? Still, not a big deal. I'll probably keep the spellcasting, since I'm letting them play casters if they want to. I'd probably limit them to one casting progression, so for example a paladin could swap out his casting for an inquisitor's, probably adding paladin spells to his list. I'll definitilely encourage the domain option with domain spells as SLAs.

This going to be the sort of campaign where direct violence almost always means you screwed up somewhere, so I'm more concerned about buffing skills than combat ability, but I also think a Paladin would be a good option fluff-wise, so I'd like to encourage that choice.

Thanks for the advice!

[Gwazi Magnum]

Gwazi, good point about the BAB, I hadn't thought of that. I guess none of the low BAB classes really make a lot of attack rolls. There probably won't be a lot of combat in this campaign anyway; one of the players really doesn't like it that much. I'll check out that class when I'm not on my phone at work. :smallsmile: Oh, and I'll be sure to keep everything at it's normal max. Although a rogue with 12+int skills would be pretty sweet...

Fouredged Sword, isn't average BAB 4 at level 6? Still, not a big deal. I'll probably keep the spellcasting, since I'm letting them play casters if they want to. I'd probably limit them to one casting progression, so for example a paladin could swap out his casting for an inquisitor's, probably adding paladin spells to his list. I'll definitilely encourage the domain option with domain spells as SLAs.

This going to be the sort of campaign where direct violence almost always means you screwed up somewhere, so I'm more concerned about buffing skills than combat ability, but I also think a Paladin would be a good option fluff-wise, so I'd like to encourage that choice.

Thanks for the advice!

Personally what I did with the class I'm working on is set it so everyone has full BAB.
The way I view it is that for any weapon using class it's pretty much vital while magic or skill based classes will have little to no use for it.

Besides, they're still less accurate than the fighter like character who ramps up their Strength/Dexterity and Weapon Focus's along with enchanted weapons to increase the attack roll even further.

If there's one class feature you can afford to slip past the maximum though it's skill points. A common complaint with d&d is people don't gain enough skill points to make proper characters. Just gaining enough to cover themselves gameplay wise and none left over for personal and character reasons.

It's a fairly common house rule to just give characters 2 or 4 extra skill points per level for free just to give them that option and flexibility. That may be something you'd want to consider, expecially when it's only 2 players since those two characters will have a lot of skills of cover in a game that assumes you'll have 4 or more characters to cover them.

Also I'd suggest the following alterations skill wise.

1. Search, Spot and Listen class skills for everyone.
These were your skills for just being aware, pretty much needed to be a good adventurer and it's a real pain when your class doesn't let you be good at it.

2. Let them pick one or two skills to make class skills for free
Adds to their individual character and concept and just one more step towards breaking the stereotypical molds classes often bring with them.

3. Diplomacy class skill for Fighter
Soldiers move on to be politicians, officers or generals all the time. It makes no sense why they don't have Diplomacy as a class skill.

For spell lists, it's also important to pay attention to the tier system.
Paladins & Rangers are normally seen to be some of the weaker classes.
Letting them unlock spell trees sooner (like at level 1) would be a good way to keep them more on edge with other classes like the wizard or cleric but still not broken since it is still a weaker and slower progressing spell tree. And if you`re doing E6 it will never develop to any broken levels anyways.

Also that reminds me, I`d suggest making will saves a high saving throw for Paladins. For loyal followers blessed by their god a low will save just doesn`t make sense.

A lack of combat in a campaign is pretty common, just remember there`s ways to apply CR in ways other than monsters, like traps.

[Drelua]

Well, with the Pathfinder skill system I'm not to worried about people having enough skill points, but I'll probably just give them Perception anyway, and I certainly agree that fighter's should have diplomacy. I thought Paladins did have good will saves though, did they change that for PF?

I'll certainly be sure to have non-combat encounters, but I'm not sure I'll use too many traps. That depends on what the players want and what sort of characters they make. I probably won't use XP, so that won't be too much of a problem; I'll just tell them when I think they've earned a level, and probably be pretty liberal with the feats once they hit level 6.

[Drelua]

I just looked at your generic class, and while it looks interesting I don't think it would work for my group. They'd probably take way too long to make their characters. I'll probably stick with this to give them a simple but flexible buff, along with a high point buy and generous loot. I don't want the combat to be too easy since it'll be rare and I want it to feel like a consequence instead of an easy solution, but I don't want them to feel like they just don't have the skills to go through with whatever crazy ideas they come up with.

I'm also giving them an option to join team evil, which could be funny. See, my group doesn't randomly murder people when they're evil. They'd rather have a female PC seduce the prince while a guy seduces the princess, tell them both to meet in the same dark room and have a bunch of people walk in on them in the act. Because they can and it's funny. True Story.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, with the Pathfinder skill system I'm not to worried about people having enough skill points, but I'll probably just give them Perception anyway, and I certainly agree that fighter's should have diplomacy. I thought Paladins did have good will saves though, did they change that for PF?

I'll certainly be sure to have non-combat encounters, but I'm not sure I'll use too many traps. That depends on what the players want and what sort of characters they make. I probably won't use XP, so that won't be too much of a problem; I'll just tell them when I think they've earned a level, and probably be pretty liberal with the feats once they hit level 6.

I've never looked much at Pathfinder so it's highly possible they had fixed these things.


I just looked at your generic class, and while it looks interesting I don't think it would work for my group. They'd probably take way too long to make their characters. I'll probably stick with this to give them a simple but flexible buff, along with a high point buy and generous loot. I don't want the combat to be too easy since it'll be rare and I want it to feel like a consequence instead of an easy solution, but I don't want them to feel like they just don't have the skills to go through with whatever crazy ideas they come up with.

I'm also giving them an option to join team evil, which could be funny. See, my group doesn't randomly murder people when they're evil. They'd rather have a female PC seduce the prince while a guy seduces the princess, tell them both to meet in the same dark room and have a bunch of people walk in on them in the act. Because they can and it's funny. True Story.

I wasn't exactly suggesting the Generic Class for you to use it. I mean I don't have an issue with you using it but I was more suggesting it as something to look at for ideas. It has yet to be play tested even, I'm constantly going back and tweaking it trying to keep it as updated and fixed as possible for when I do have a chance to play test it.

Your solutions seem pretty good though too. Plus your goals and the Generic classes goals seem to vary a bit. You seem to be focused a bit more on keeping new players well prepared and able to handle what's thrown at them, while mine although potentially Tier 1 but I still see it as Tier 2, is design to allow players to make their exact character concept without being restricted by one classes features.

Note: If unsure what Tiers here click here. It's basically a way people on the forums use to rank/identify how powerful/useful certain classes are.

You're group sounds fun :P
The most creative I've found my groups getting when evil is abusing one of my past characters ridiculously high strength to tear down a city's vault door and rob their city gold blind while pulling a minecraft by digging out of the mine through the dirt. So when he came up through the ground (Note, he was an Orc) a person saw me stick my head up from the ground and ran off yelling "The Morcs are coming!".

[Drelua]

I've never looked much at Pathfinder so it's highly possible they had fixed these things.



I wasn't exactly suggesting the Generic Class for you to use it. I mean I don't have an issue with you using it but I was more suggesting it as something to look at for ideas. It has yet to be play tested even, I'm constantly going back and tweaking it trying to keep it as updated and fixed as possible for when I do have a chance to play test it.

Ah, fair enough. I do like the idea of having a sort of build your own class mechanic, but my friends aren't really that interested in having the fluff and the crunch match up perfectly, so a class based system is a good fit for them. I would like to make a character for a game where I don't have to figure out which classes are closest to my character concept and then see which one's most willing to move in the direction I want to take. I've taken to just playing a certain class with a bit of a twist lately to avoid that problem, like a Barbarian with more of a battle trance than rage.


Your solutions seem pretty good though too. Plus your goals and the Generic classes goals seem to vary a bit. You seem to be focused a bit more on keeping new players well prepared and able to handle what's thrown at them, while mine although potentially Tier 1 but I still see it as Tier 2, is design to allow players to make their exact character concept without being restricted by one classes features.

Note: If unsure what Tiers here click here. It's basically a way people on the forums use to rank/identify how powerful/useful certain classes are.

Yeah, I guess I'm aiming for customization and versatility whereas you seem to be aiming for the ability to make any character from a single class and to promote party balance. Don't worry, I'm familiar with tiers, I just don't pay too much attention to them since they don't really describe the balance problems in my group which come from two moderately good optimizers playing with two people that make characters about two inches above the optimization floor.


You're group sounds fun :P
The most creative I've found my groups getting when evil is abusing one of my past characters ridiculously high strength to tear down a city's vault door and rob their city gold blind while pulling a minecraft by digging out of the mine through the dirt. So when he came up through the ground (Note, he was an Orc) a person saw me stick my head up from the ground and ran off yelling "The Morcs are coming!".

That is a pretty good reaction from the DM, although randomly robbing a bank just because one of you is really strong doesn't sound like a great idea. You know, unless you can all run really fast.

There was also the time when we infiltrated a cult and my friends Rogue snuck into the confessional and talked a bunch of people into killing themselves while my dwarven Monk jumped anyone who didn't fall for it. Surprisingly, I wasn't needed very often. That guy had one hell of a bluff score.

Oh, and the time our level ~30 characters tricked a crazy homeless person into running up to a bunch a enemies with a fully charged staff of power, screaming ''PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!'' and snapping the thing in half. My Rogue, not knowing what was going, stood a bit too close, but luckily I rolled well on the Reflex Save. Of course, the gnome sorcerer wasn't so lucky; he rolled a 1 and just kinda stood there. Hooray for Healer cohorts!

[Drelua]

Oh, I completely forgot I was going to put in an option for saves. Would it be underpowered to let characters bump one save up from poor to good? That's basically a +3 to one save by level 6, never less than a +2. I guess since the other options are all quite a bit better than a feat, but this is about the same as Lightning Reflexes and similar. Maybe an additional +1 to all saves?