Knowledge checks against creature types/races

[Gargravarr]

Assuming you'd have the following character:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Archivist 1
+ Knowledge Devotion feat and Collector of Stories skill trick.

You encounter:

1 vampire undead, knowledge(religion)
1 shadow = undead, knowledge(religion)
1 phase spider = magical beast, knowledge(arcana)

So how many seperate knowledge checks do you have to do and how do they apply?

I'm confused because the Knowledge Devotion check is per creature type (and only 1 roll per type, regardless of race), yet the "Dark Knowledge" check from the Archivist is per race?

First it says

[...]Using dark knowledge requires a Knowledge check of a type appropriate to the creature faced.[...]

Then it goes on to say

[...]The archivist's dark knowledge can affect a single creature or all creatures of the same race, depending on the effect used.

Tactics: The archivist knows the general combat behaviors of creatures of that race, granting his allies a +1 bonus on attack rolls made against them. For example, an archivist confronted by corruption eaters* who succeeded on his Knowledge (dungeoneering) check would grant his allies the attack bonus against all the corruption eaters they fought in that encounter. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, then this bonus increases to +2. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, then this bonus increases to +3.[...]



Knowledge Devotion
[...]You can make only one Knowledge check per creature
type per combat. If you fi ght creatures of multiple types
during the same combat, you can make one Knowledge
check per type, thereby possibly gaining different bonuses
against different opponents.[...]

In total, do I do 3 knowledge checks or 2 because there's only 2 types?

In case you're wondering, I'm just asking to see how the attack roll bonus would apply as both the domain feat and the Dark knowledge class skill grant one if beating the DC.

[Cheiromancer]

Although they both use knowledge checks, dark knowledge is a separate ability from knowledge devotion. They have separate limitations (only 3 dark knowledge/day, and only one knowledge per creature type per encounter). I suppose by RAW you roll separate knowledge (religion) checks for dark knowledge than for knowledge devotion, but that seems odd- the DM should use the same roll.

In answer to your question; up to 3 dark knowledge rolls (one for each race), and two knowledge devotion; you have to decide whether your knowledge (religion) roll will help against the vampire or the shadow. It is DM's call whether this roll also counts as the dark knowledge roll against that race.

[Diarmuid]

While you can only make 1 roll per creature type for a given encounter, that roll applies for other creatures of the same type.

The example in the Comp Champ discusses seeing a black dragon and rolling to get +3 hit/dmg. Later a half-dragon something joins the combat. The PC cant make a KD roll against the half-dragon, but the previous +3 hit/dmg would be applied to the half-dragon the same as it had for the Black Dragon.

I have seen some arguments that Collector of Stories does not work with Knowledge Devotion, and while I agree from a RAW standpoint, my group allows it to work. YMMV.

[Gargravarr]

Although they both use knowledge checks, dark knowledge is a separate ability from knowledge devotion. They have separate limitations (only 3 dark knowledge/day, and only one knowledge per creature type per encounter). I suppose by RAW you roll separate knowledge (religion) checks for dark knowledge than for knowledge devotion, but that seems odd- the DM should use the same roll.

Understood.


you have to decide whether your knowledge (religion) roll will help against the vampire or the shadow.

Not sure I can follow. I have to make 2 dark knowledge (religion) rolls anyways (one per creature), no? Plus one Knowledge (religion) devotion roll if the DM treats them as seperate rolls?


Furthermore...am also wondering if the resulting dark knowledge bonus is also granted to the Archivist himself? Because it states:


...The archivist knows the general combat behaviors of creatures of that race, granting his allies a +1 bonus on attack rolls made against them....



While you can only make 1 roll per creature type for a given encounter, that roll applies for other creatures of the same type.

The example in the Comp Champ discusses seeing a black dragon and rolling to get +3 hit/dmg. Later a half-dragon something joins the combat. The PC cant make a KD roll against the half-dragon, but the previous +3 hit/dmg would be applied to the half-dragon the same as it had for the Black Dragon.

Yes, this one was clear to me :)
I was just wondering if the dark knowledge check results are granted to the whole creature type or just the race/individual creature.


I have seen some arguments that Collector of Stories does not work with Knowledge Devotion...

How so? It's a one-time competence bonus I add before doing the check roll, no?

[Andezzar]

According to the glossary, an ally (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=) includes the character himself unless stated otherwise.

[PersonMan]

Furthermore...am also wondering if the resulting dark knowledge bonus is also granted to the Archivist himself? Because it states:


You are your own ally. Hence Bards being able to Inspire Courage themselves and White Raven Tactictians being able to take multiple turns.

IIRC the rule is in the Inspire Courage rules, but it could be somewhere else.