Speak with Dead's been eating at me.

[AstralFire]

Shouldn't the party have tried a wee bit harder to ask more questions of other corpses with less vague questions? That jumps out at me every time people talk about the rift/cheeks thing.

[Jasdoif]

Shouldn't the party have tried a wee bit harder to ask more questions of other corpses with less vague questions? That jumps out at me every time people talk about the rift/cheeks thing.It would depend on if Durkon had the spell prepared more than once, or if they were willing to wait long enough for Durkon to get a new allotment of spells.

[Madfellow]

Durkon said he'd prepared it at least one more time, but Roy didn't want him to waste the spell slot on it, figuring any further attempts would be equally as futile as the first. I kinda agree that better questioning could have worked in the party's favor, but I also know why that didn't happen.

1) The party was pressed for time.

And

2) Getting all the answers they needed would have reduced the amount of conflict and tension in this encounter.

[Porthos]

Reading back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) on the strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html) in question, it looks like they got interrupted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html) by Tarquin's attack before they could decide to ask any more questions.

[denthor]

After looking at the title of this thread.

Astralfire,You need to stop hanging out with Zombies.

Really all they do is eat at you.

[Lvl45DM!]

Shouldn't the party have tried a wee bit harder to ask more questions of other corpses with less vague questions? That jumps out at me every time people talk about the rift/cheeks thing.

Ok. You come up with better questions. Nah really its hard to do on the fly

[The Giant]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

[Yendor]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

Just enough so the complaint switches from "Why aren't they trying this?" to "Why are they still trying this?" :smalltongue:

[137beth]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

It's clear, isn't it? Since they didn't try very hard on it, the forum will declare that it is a "dues ex machina" (totally wrong usage) in favor of the bad guys...
if you spent any more time on it, it would have become "filler."
The only question now is:
Is the act of creating a false dichotomy where anything-the-poster-expects is filler and anything-the-poster-doesn't-expect filler, a morally justified act?:smalltongue:

[CRtwenty]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

Being that this is a comic based on a game where PCs regularly tear apart entire dungeons brick by brick to find any secret rooms they missed. I'd say an entire books worth would have been appropriate.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Shouldn't the party have tried a wee bit harder to ask more questions of other corpses with less vague questions? That jumps out at me every time people talk about the rift/cheeks thing.


How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

The Order didn't get any actual clues about the location of the actual rift in the fabric of reality (just some ass comedy) from their four (!) speak with dead questions, and wouldn't have gotten any clues from more questions. The Draketooth corpses can't lie, but they are strongly motivated to be as unhelpful as possible.

[AstralFire]

How many pages would you have preferred that I spend showing a tactic that was not going to work?

Not necessarily pages, so much as another panel or two. It just felt a little bit odd to me that they asked one question that could be easily twisted and didn't try to play any literalism games when they previously had with the oracle. But I accepted Porthos' take on the matter which is why I didn't push my question further.

Mind, this was more of a minor "hm, I've been wondering" thread and less of a "OMGWTFBBQ YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" thread, and I hope you didn't take it as the latter.


Just enough so the complaint switches from "Why aren't they trying this?" to "Why are they still trying this?" :smalltongue:


It's clear, isn't it? Since they didn't try very hard on it, the forum will declare that it is a "dues ex machina" (totally wrong usage) in favor of the bad guys...
if you spent any more time on it, it would have become "filler."
The only question now is:
Is the act of creating a false dichotomy where anything-the-poster-expects is filler and anything-the-poster-doesn't-expect filler, a morally justified act?:smalltongue:

Please point out to me where I've made any of these arguments ever. :smallmad: I'm sorry that I had the gall to ask a question about the story that I didn't really 'get' because it clearly automatically means that I have a complaint. Won't happen again. :smallsigh:

[Morquard]

What I'm wondering about Speak with Dead and it's usage is this:

Could they have tried to use it to convince one of the Draketooths (preferably one who looks like he has cleric levels or so) that the illusions are failing, that the entire clan has been slaughtered, and that yes while Durkon is LG he's not a Paladin, and that he please accepts to be resurrected?

I know that by D&D Rules that's not possible as you're not actually talking to the actual dead person's soul in the afterlife. But in #15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) Eugene implies that it's a perfectly viable way of contacting dead family members in OotS-World.

Even if you say that was just a joke, or Eugene messing with Roy because he figured Roy has no clue how Speak with Dead really works (or Eugene having no clue, as it's not "real magic" or so), shouldn't Speak with Dead have given them more questions than just three to ask?
It gives 1 question per casterlevel, Durkon is 15 or 16, so that's 7 or 8 questions. Shouldn't they at this point have said "Ok, this line of questioning isn't working, let's actually think how we formulate the last 4 questions we have?"

[AstralFire]

I tried not to include "speak with dead mechanically doesn't work this way" confusion (though I must confess it leaped out at me too) because this comic runs on plot and internal consistency first, D&D's rules only as a convenience.

But hey, what do I know, I'm the person "complaining" here or whatever. :smallmad:

[pearl jam]

The fact that they are in a hurry probably plays a role here, too, and that's without even knowing how imminent Xykon's arrival could actually be. Yes, it's theoretically possible that, had they taken the time, they could have crafted a question more likely to force a helpful answer. But, as has been noted, that task can be more difficult than it appears. Also, as you noted, they did, indeed, try this tactic vs. the Oracle, so it could be argued that they could be expected to do so again, here, but, then again, that joke has already been told. I think Roy weighed the likelihood of crafting a perfect question vs. the likelihood that further questions would be greeted with similar replies and decided the chance wasn't worth the time & effort.

[Tass]

I know that by D&D Rules that's not possible as you're not actually talking to the actual dead person's soul in the afterlife. But in #15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) Eugene implies that it's a perfectly viable way of contacting dead family members in OotS-World.

Don't forget that Xykon said that Speak with dead conjured the goblins immortal soul, in #95 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html)

[Lvl45DM!]

I tried not to include "speak with dead mechanically doesn't work this way" confusion (though I must confess it leaped out at me too) because this comic runs on plot and internal consistency first, D&D's rules only as a convenience.

But hey, what do I know, I'm the person "complaining" here or whatever. :smallmad:

Heyy i don't think they were ripping on you that hard. Both had poking out tongue faces. They were just joking Astral :smallsmile:.

There is a valid complaint to be had that the OotS seemed less effective than they have been in the past but remember when Roy played the literal game it backfired pretty hard and the Oracle was far less invested in making life difficult for the OotS than the Draketooth.

[The Giant]

Not necessarily pages, so much as another panel or two. It just felt a little bit odd to me that they asked one question that could be easily twisted and didn't try to play any literalism games when they previously had with the oracle.

But that's literally not what happened. They asked four questions: three in #845, and one in #846. Two were answered by unhelpful literal interpretations, one was answered by a deliberate joke and one was answered by a cryptic riddle. So if your argument is that I should have had the Order ask more than one question to show that the corpse was simply going to stonewall them no matter what they did...that's exactly what I did. It's just that you're only remembering the "buttcheeks" question.

I think four questions is enough to get the point across, and since I didn't have any more plot or joke reasons to keep going, I don't see what purpose another two panels would have served.


Mind, this was more of a minor "hm, I've been wondering" thread and less of a "OMGWTFBBQ YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" thread, and I hope you didn't take it as the latter.

When you start a question with "shouldn't," the implication is that what you're saying is the right way, and what happened was the wrong way. As in, Roy should have done it this way, and the fact he didn't was an error on his part (or mine). That likely informs the nature of the responses.


Please point out to me where I've made any of these arguments ever. :smallmad: I'm sorry that I had the gall to ask a question about the story that I didn't really 'get' because it clearly automatically means that I have a complaint. Won't happen again. :smallsigh:

No one claimed you were making those arguments. They're mocking the fact that there are people who make those arguments, and that there's very little room for me to make one group (including you) happy without making the other group (including them) unhappy. Which is true.

[AstralFire]

As in, Roy should have done it this way, and the fact he didn't was an error on his part.

The only error I meant to be implying was an error on Roy's part, not yours, Mr. Burlew. You're right that I was misremembering, which is part of why I was fairly satisfied with Porthos' answer - they asked more questions than I'd recalled, and then they ran out of time. Regarding the other responses, I've been kind of deliberate about not piping in during a lot of the recent "Mr. Burlew should have shouldn't have" debates, so getting the comparison irked me.

[The Giant]

I think a lot of people around here are quick to jump from "character made a mistake" to "Rich made a mistake by having character make a mistake." To the point that I think many think it's implied even when it's not explicitly stated. I do it, too. There are a lot of threads, and reading every day about how I'm DOING COMICS WRONG tends to make me defensive. Sorry about that.

So, yeah. Lessons for everyone.

[Stella]

There are a lot of threads, and reading every day about how I'm DOING COMICS WRONG tends to make me defensive.

Let's see...

Award winning comic;
Massive readership;
Highly successful Kickstarter;
Mindbogglingly active forums.

I'd say the only thing you're doing it ALL wrong applies to is taking the criticism too seriously. :biggrin::tongue:

[Magnasword2]

I would imagine all the Draketooth clan hang out together in the afterlife. Bring one back then he goes back and tells them someones after the gate. After which they either refuse to come back or simply just repeat "Giriads buttcheeks" A thousand times. Not to mention the scarce time the party has with numerous gribblys after the gates

[Tragak]

Let's see...

Award winning comic;
Massive readership;
Highly successful Kickstarter;
Mindbogglingly active forums.

I'd say the only thing you're doing it ALL wrong applies to is taking the criticism too seriously. :biggrin::tongue: When you say "Highly successful Kickstarter" surely you mean "Set the record for "Setting The Most Records" on Kickstarter" :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Amphiox]

What I'm wondering about Speak with Dead and it's usage is this:

Could they have tried to use it to convince one of the Draketooths (preferably one who looks like he has cleric levels or so) that the illusions are failing, that the entire clan has been slaughtered, and that yes while Durkon is LG he's not a Paladin, and that he please accepts to be resurrected?

I know that by D&D Rules that's not possible as you're not actually talking to the actual dead person's soul in the afterlife. But in #15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) Eugene implies that it's a perfectly viable way of contacting dead family members in OotS-World.

Even if you say that was just a joke, or Eugene messing with Roy because he figured Roy has no clue how Speak with Dead really works (or Eugene having no clue, as it's not "real magic" or so), shouldn't Speak with Dead have given them more questions than just three to ask?
It gives 1 question per casterlevel, Durkon is 15 or 16, so that's 7 or 8 questions. Shouldn't they at this point have said "Ok, this line of questioning isn't working, let's actually think how we formulate the last 4 questions we have?"

I think the only way this would have had a chance of working would be to use a necromancy spell to bring one of the Draketooths back as a self-willed undead, like Darth V did to the mother Black Dragon. Speak with Dead only conveys words, does it not? No amount of words would have likely worked on someone conditioned into a lifetime of paranoia like all the Draketooths likely would have been.

As a free willed undead, the target could see with its own eyes what had happened.

[Amphiox]

I suppose The Giant could have put in one blank panel, all black, with the text "3 HOURS LATER...." followed by another variant of the buttcrack joke, but that would be just extended the same joke longer, and even a single extra panel means changing the sizes and positions of all the other panels, which in a visual medium like a comic is no trivial thing. It could change for the worse how the reader views and perceives the whole strip.

And the he'd be dealing with complaints about Durkon wasting his precious spell slots on futile castings if Speak With Dead.

[Jay R]

{SCRUBBED}

[Stella]

When you say "Highly successful Kickstarter" surely you mean "Set the record for "Setting The Most Records" on Kickstarter" :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:Are you saying that it's a META superlative? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[AstralFire]

I suppose The Giant could have put in one blank panel, all black, with the text "3 HOURS LATER...." followed by another variant of the buttcrack joke, but that would be just extended the same joke longer, and even a single extra panel means changing the sizes and positions of all the other panels, which in a visual medium like a comic is no trivial thing. It could change for the worse how the reader views and perceives the whole strip.

And the he'd be dealing with complaints about Durkon wasting his precious spell slots on futile castings if Speak With Dead.

...


{SCRUBBED}

really? REALLY? I-

Really?

You know what, at this rate, I'm just going to ask this thread to be locked.

Much kudos to Mr. Burlew, was cool to talk out a misunderstanding. :) But I don't want to repeat this umpteen billion times.

[137beth]

Please point out to me where I've made any of these arguments ever. I'm sorry that I had the gall to ask a question about the story that I didn't really 'get' because it clearly automatically means that I have a complaint. Won't happen again.
I didn't think you were...in fact, I don't think anyone has. I have, however, seen people who deride anything that they, personally, anticipated as "filler." I have seen other, unrelated, people who deride anything they didn't anticipate as "dues ex machina". And I was making a joke about how if you got those two groups of people on the same forum, then everything ever written would be either "filler" or "dues ex machina" (or both, if one person expects it and another doesn't). I didn't say, or mean to imply, that you were in either of those two groups.

[The Giant]

First, unacceptable posting is still unacceptable. If you don't like the idea of discussing the obvious topic of the thread, then don't post in the thread. Don't threadcrap with stuff like, "This discussion is boring." Go read something else.

Second, we generally do not lock threads by user request, even if the user is the person who started the thread. People are allowed to continue discussing the topic after original poster is done, because we have a "one topic, one thread" rule that prevents people from starting new threads on the same topic—especially when that topic has been locked. If you feel like you're done talking about this, then stop reading this thread. Please don't change the name of the thread to "Please lock thread," as that makes it difficult for others to find it and possibly continue the discussion, should they so wish.

And third, while I know it's really rare for someone on the internet to concede an argument, when they do? It would be nice if everyone could avoid piling on after the fact. It's rude and unnecessary. If you have something new to say about the topic, that's one thing. If you just want to repeat points that have already been made in an argument that has already been won, that's not cool.

[AstralFire]

Noted on all points, and thank you on the same. :smallsmile:

[Sunken Valley]

Hold on, Rich just confirmed that the gate Roy has found is the real gate and not a fake gate in another thread. Does this mean that the joke about "Girard's Buttcheeks" was an anus joke and not a sneaky clue.

[jere7my]

Hold on, Rich just confirmed that the gate Roy has found is the real gate and not a fake gate in another thread. Does this mean that the joke about "Girard's Buttcheeks" was an anus joke and not a sneaky clue.

YES.

It is, and always has been, a joke.

[mrzomby]

Hold on, Rich just confirmed that the gate Roy has found is the real gate and not a fake gate in another thread. Does this mean that the joke about "Girard's Buttcheeks" was an anus joke and not a sneaky clue.

It is still possible that

1. The walls of the room are called "girard's butt cheeks"

2. The family(or younger generations) didn't KNOW what they were guarding, just that they were guarding something

3. butt joke lolololol

4. something else even.

[jere7my]

It is still possible that

1. The walls of the room are called "girard's butt cheeks"

2. The family(or younger generations) didn't KNOW what they were guarding, just that they were guarding something

3. butt joke lolololol

4. something else even.

It's just a joke. It's the same joke as "Where does Napoleon keep his armies? In his sleevies!" If the corpse could answer the question technically correctly without giving anything away, and make Roy look like an idiot to boot, why would it want to add a clue to the gate's actual location?

[Akari Itagami]

It is still possible that

1. The walls of the room are called "girard's butt cheeks"



Well that's a funny joke but it will never be possible because common sense of drama tells me recurring of such joke at this point of event is just anti-climaxing! :smallyuk:

[137beth]

It is still possible that

1. The walls of the room are called "girard's butt cheeks"

2. The family(or younger generations) didn't KNOW what they were guarding, just that they were guarding something

3. butt joke lolololol

4. something else even.

Option 3 is the answer: it was a joke:sigh:

[FlawedParadigm]

Option 3 is the answer: it was a joke:sigh:

In a comic??

[denthor]

Hold on, Rich just confirmed that the gate Roy has found is the real gate and not a fake gate in another thread. Does this mean that the joke about "Girard's Buttcheeks" was an anus joke and not a sneaky clue.



We do not know where the final room is. My guess is directly under the coffin with Girards remains.

So yes it may litterally be between his buttcheek$. That makes that joke gold

[B. Dandelion]

anti-climaxing!

...that sounds painful. :smalleek:

Might want to go with "anti-climactic" there, given the alternate meanings of "climax" as a verb....


So yes it may litterally be between his buttcheek$. That makes that joke gold

I honestly fail to see how that joke gets funnier if Orrin was being helpful-but-cryptic as opposed to a deliberate smart-ass. It was humorous that he found a way around Roy's question and made him the butt of the joke. If he wasn't cracking wise you lose that... aspect.

[rodneyAnonymous]

So yes it may litterally be between his buttcheek$. That makes that joke gold

The ass comedy was not a real clue. Why would a defender help an invader?

[Dracon1us]

The ass comedy was not a real clue. Why would a defender help an invader?

kindness?

how rude is not to help someone from seizing world domination... tsk tsk

[Throknor]

OK, this dead horse isn't beaten enough. In their world it would be obvious that one possible invading tactic is to kill a defender and use Speak with Dead afterwards. Having true but useless answers prepared to obvious questions gives them an out.

I even have a method of setting this up over multiple generations. Once the gate was hidden none of his people really needed to know what it was. If he only ever referred to what the Gate as 'the warble-blaster', no one could be interrogated for Gate or Rift or any other obvious term. Then having a standing joke about Girard's Rift being between his butt-cheeks is icing on the cake for such a situation.

Convoluted? Sure. But possible, and frankly it's a method I would try. If your defenders don't really know what they are defending then they can't accidentally give it away in life either, and using a inside joke as a diversion seems like something Girard could think of.

[brionl]

Speak with Dad spell:
"Hey dad, can I borrow 20 GP and the carpet tonight?"
"When I was a kid we had to go out and kill monsters with a Treasure Class K if we wanted 20 GP."