Character Idea Extremes

[Everynone]

So. My friends and I are about to start a new campaign, and for character ideas, I'm either gonna go one of two way: a (hopefully) totally optimized controller-style wizard, or a straight-up archer-fighter (see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15472951#post15472951)).

Because of the previous thread, I now have some good ideas about how I might go about building that guy. I've played an archer (a ranger) before, but I've never played a really powerful caster. So can I get some help building one? I was thinking PrCs like Archmage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Incantrix. As well as doing feat spreads and skill spreads and all that...I was thinking Sun Elf for a race, because we're starting with a stat spread of 18|16|14|12|10|8 before racials, so an Int of 20 at 1st level sounds very nice. :smallsmile: Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

[ArcturusV]

Well, the key is less in Class Levels and more in Spell Choice. I mean yeah, class levels can matter. But when you're talking Wizards, really the Optimization is more like: 85% Spell Loadout, 13% Feats, 1% Classes, 1% Stats.

Starting with 20 Int isn't all that important. What's more important if finding races that have goodies you either really need or can parlay into something else.

For example: Elves are good because of Elven Generalist ACFs, and the ability to Chaos Shuffle the four feats they get at level 1 (Racial Feats of Longsword, Longbow, Shortbow, and Rapier Proficiency).

So the better advice is to look towards Optimized Spells first and foremost. Which in part depends on what levels you're talking about starting out at.

[HalfQuart]

A good place to start would probably be to read TreantMonk's A Guide to Wizards: Playing a GOD (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570.0). Then you should probably read Dictum Mortuum's The Wizard's Handbook Part I (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/wizards-handbook-part-one-attributes.html).

[Emperor Tippy]

So. My friends and I are about to start a new campaign, and for character ideas, I'm either gonna go one of two way: a (hopefully) totally optimized controller-style wizard, or a straight-up archer-fighter (see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15472951#post15472951)).

Because of the previous thread, I now have some good ideas about how I might go about building that guy. I've played an archer (a ranger) before, but I've never played a really powerful caster. So can I get some help building one? I was thinking PrCs like Archmage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Incantrix. As well as doing feat spreads and skill spreads and all that...I was thinking Sun Elf for a race, because we're starting with a stat spread of 18|16|14|12|10|8 before racials, so an Int of 20 at 1st level sounds very nice. :smallsmile: Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

Never combine Incantatrix and IotSV pre-epic. Go Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 4/ Mindbender 1.

If you are starting before level 20 then move the Mindbender level up to somewhere more useful.

Domain Wizard (Anti-magic or Abjuration Domain's are the best choices) Gray Elf Generalist with Faerie Mysteries Initiate 5 with Spontaneous Divination for the base.

When you go epic, take 11 levels of Factotum and 7 levels of Cosmic Descryer.

Persist your whole buff list. Play a mailman + Battlefield control. It's pretty much impossible to go wrong at this point.

[eggynack]

Those two character ideas are rather problematic in tandem. I can't actually imagine a single game where I'd feel alright bringing either a single classed fighter archer, or a highly optimized wizard who enters things like incantrix. Anyway, I'll just toss a quick second towards that treantmonk guide. It's basically got just about everything you need for being a great wizard. Just so I'm not entirely critical and unhelpful, I'll post you some more handbooks. Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0) is a great guide to metamagic, which will serve you well if you go the incantrix route. Additionally, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) is logic ninja's guide to wizards. It's not quite as good as the treantmonk one, and the tone is a little on the caustic side, but it's a classic, and I think that it's well worth a read.

[Emperor Tippy]

Those two character ideas are rather problematic in tandem. I can't actually imagine a single game where I'd feel alright bringing either a single classed fighter archer, or a highly optimized wizard who enters things like incantrix. Anyway, I'll just toss a quick second towards that treantmonk guide. It's basically got just about everything you need for being a great wizard. Just so I'm not entirely critical and unhelpful, I'll post you some more handbooks. Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0) is a great guide to metamagic, which will serve you well if you go the incantrix route. Additionally, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) is logic ninja's guide to wizards. It's not quite as good as the treantmonk one, and the tone is a little on the caustic side, but it's a classic, and I think that it's well worth a read.
I really should get around to finishing my wizard guide. Being a Wizard 101 by Professor Tippy.

[eggynack]

I really should get around to finishing my wizard guide. Being a Wizard 101 by Professor Tippy.
Yes. Yes you should. That sounds pretty frigging amazing.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes. Yes you should. That sounds pretty frigging amazing.

That means getting it off the hard drive in dead laptop number #4 for the year.

It's honestly probably the only thing on that hard drive worth recovering actually. Might give it to tech support on Monday.

[Everynone]

Why shouldn't I combine Incantatrix and Initiate pre-epic?

And also, why is a Gray Elf so good? What are their stats?

[Karnith]

And also, why is a Gray Elf so good? What are their stats?
Gray Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) get -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, and +2 Int, making them pretty well-suited to be wizards based on stats alone (and probably better for most wizards than the Sun Elf's -2 Con, +2 Int). As elves, they qualify for the Elven Generalist ACF, which gets you the main benefit of specializing (more spell slots) without losing access to any schools (and, as a side benefit, it doesn't disqualify you from also being a Domain Wizard). And at higher op-levels (i.e. what Emperor Tippy plays at), gray elves get normal (high elf) traits, which means they get 4 free Weapon Proficiency feats to Chaos Shuffle away.

They are essentially the same as any +Int elf subrace, they just get recommended the most because they're in Core.

I really should get around to finishing my wizard guide. Being a Wizard 101 by Professor Tippy.
Tippy, you are my hero and if you do this, no one will ever again be able to question that you do, in fact, win.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why shouldn't I combine Incantatrix and Initiate pre-epic?
For one, you can't finish off both.

For two, the feats become an issue as IotSV requires 3 feats and a pre epic Incantatrix is already very feat hungry.

For three, most of IotSV can be fairly easily and completely replicated with other spells and magic items.

Taking IotSV in epic, when you can Shuffle virtually all of your Meta reducers into multiple iterations of Improved Metamagic (take it four times and in conjunction with Incantatrix 10 you can use any non epic meta in the game for only +1 spell level. Combine with Arcane Thesis and its +0) and the excess into its prerequisites makes sense. The defensive abilities also become a lot more relevant in epic.

But until then your Incantatrix persistent buffs and regular spell list is pretty much as good.


And also, why is a Gray Elf so good? What are their stats?
It gets +2 Int and +2 Dex along with letting you take the feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate for Int to HP instead of Con and take the Elf Generalist racial sub level.

Combine with Necropolitian and you have more HP than the party barbarian, far more efficient PB and you are pretty much pure SAD, and you have 4 extra feats to play with (which is gold on an Incantatrix).

[HalfQuart]

Gray Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) get -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, and +2 Int, making them pretty well-suited to be wizards based on stats alone (and probably better for most wizards than the Sun Elf's -2 Con, +2 Int). As elves, they qualify for the Elven Generalist ACF, which gets you the main benefit of specializing (more spell slots) without losing access to any schools (and, as a side benefit, it doesn't disqualify you from also being a Domain Wizard). And at higher op-levels (i.e. what Emperor Tippy plays at), gray elves get normal (high elf) traits, which means they get 4 free Weapon Proficiency feats to Chaos Shuffle away.
The other big thing is that the 3rd level of the Generalist Wizardry ACF (RoW 157) gives the Natural Link class feature which doubles the bonus of that a familiar gives... and if Dragon (#323) content is legal, then you can take Hummingbird which normally gives +4 Initiative, so in this case you'd get +8 Init. Which stacks with Dex and Improved Initiative, so you could easily have a level 3 character with a +14 Initiative modifier if you really wanted to.

I think Hummingbird is kind of broken in this regard, but even standard familiar bonuses get pretty good when doubled.

[Karnith]

Actually, barring some errata that I'm unaware of, Natural Link only doubles bonuses to skill checks, saves, or hit points, so a wizard with a hummingbird familiar gets no special bonus from the Natural Link ability. Hummingbird is still a really good choice if you're keeping a familiar, but that particular trick doesn't work.

[HalfQuart]

Actually, barring some errata that I'm unaware of, Natural Link only doubles bonuses to skill checks, saves, or hit points, so a wizard with a hummingbird familiar gets no special bonus from the Natural Link ability.
Huh, good catch, I never noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out.