Lvl 100 Halfing Fighter/Monk/PrC does avg 8839.5 per round. [Archive]

visigani

2013-06-21, 06:44 PM

Flickerdart

2013-06-21, 06:56 PM

We have a thread on the first page of this forum where a level 20 Monk/Factotum does over 2000 damage per round. You're going to have to do a lot better than just 8839.5 with an 80 level lead.

eggynack

2013-06-21, 06:58 PM

I don't think it's generally difficult enough to deal that much damage in a round at that level to warrant a mystery. Just, y'know, find a way to become large, like a template of some kind, and go hulking hurler. You get 25 stat boosts, just because you're level 100, so that's a base of 43 strength. Add 6 inherent, and 6 enhancement, and you're looking at about 55 strength, plus whatever the template is giving you. Maybe it's a little off, cause you're buying off some LA in there, or missing a stat boost, but that's probably dealing much more damage than you've got there. I haven't looked at the math on hulking hurlers recently, but they're pretty crazy.

Vaz

2013-06-21, 07:01 PM

Well Done guys. It's a challenge.

It requires 1 book, some funky parents, and interpreting one feat.

What I'm understanding is how you can have a Monk, Fighter and PrC when you're only allowed one book. At the very least, there's two there, the PrC and the two core books.

BowStreetRunner

2013-06-21, 07:05 PM

You need at minimum the PHB (Fighter/Monk) and DMG (PrC/Lvl 100). That's 2 books.

Flickerdart

2013-06-21, 08:01 PM

You need at minimum the PHB (Fighter/Monk) and DMG (PrC/Lvl 100). That's 2 books.
The DMG doesn't contain Epic rules; those are in the ELH. So three books.

visigani

2013-06-21, 08:10 PM

SO far off. Wow. I expected it to be solved by now...

eggynack

2013-06-21, 08:12 PM

The DMG doesn't contain Epic rules; those are in the ELH. So three books.
The ELH isn't even in core, so if one book meant core+1, it's all used up just in the setup. Still, I've gotta think that it's not that hard to pull this off. He's still got the amount of strength I said, and you apparently get attack bonus on odd levels, so that gives you a basic iterative set of +60/+55/+50/+45. I dunno. I just have the impression that this wouldn't be too hard to pull off, especially if you started using magic item creation guidelines. Y'know, what I'd really like to do is give the guy some kind of item of continuous divine power. Your base attack bonus caps at 20, and is subsequently boosted by regular attack bonuses, so you'd be looking at an increase to attack bonus of +80. It doesn't look like you'd get extra iteratives, because iteratives are explicitly based on hitting those exact amounts of BAB, but it'd help for power attack purposes. In the meantime, we probably need a better definition of terms from the OP.

eggynack

2013-06-21, 08:13 PM

SO far off. Wow. I expected it to be solved by now...
Well, you were very vague about the terms of the challenge, and the possible solutions are rather broad. I'm inclined to think that this wouldn't be that hard to do, with even modest cheese, so it's really more of a mind reading challenge than an optimization challenge.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-06-21, 08:19 PM

It doesn't really matter how many (or few) books you use for a given build. The characters themselves don't know that different classes, feats, etc. came from different books, or that those metagame concepts even exist, so why should we?

I built a level 26 character a while back for an actual game, he was an Illithid Savant. That character could charge and leap attack for ~500 damage per hit for eight attacks, then make five swift action teleports with Shadow Pounce for five more full attacks for ~500 damage per hit for eight attacks, then White Raven Tactics himself and do it all again before the opponents even got to act. He also had a bag of ~20 tiny size Spellstitched undead, each of which had Benign Transposition.

RFLS

2013-06-21, 08:22 PM

SO far off. Wow. I expected it to be solved by now...

Given that your terms are vague and self-contradictory, I don't know why you're surprised. Clarification would be appreciated and necessary for any actual attempts.

Tvtyrant

2013-06-21, 08:29 PM

The ELH isn't even in core, so if one book meant core+1, it's all used up just in the setup. Still, I've gotta think that it's not that hard to pull this off. He's still got the amount of strength I said, and you apparently get attack bonus on odd levels, so that gives you a basic iterative set of +60/+55/+50/+45. I dunno. I just have the impression that this wouldn't be too hard to pull off, especially if you started using magic item creation guidelines. Y'know, what I'd really like to do is give the guy some kind of item of continuous divine power. Your base attack bonus caps at 20, and is subsequently boosted by regular attack bonuses, so you'd be looking at an increase to attack bonus of +80. It doesn't look like you'd get extra iteratives, because iteratives are explicitly based on hitting those exact amounts of BAB, but it'd help for power attack purposes. In the meantime, we probably need a better definition of terms from the OP.

Or UMD a scroll of divine power for tons of attacks

eggynack

2013-06-21, 08:37 PM

Or UMD a scroll of divine power for tons of attacks
But that's the effect I'm specifically talking about in that quote, and the exact outcome that I'm pretty sure is incapable of occurring. The SRD states, "A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher." There's no mention of a 5th attack gained at +21, a 6th at +26, and etcetera. The only real benefit I can see from divine power, is that it gives you the BAB to make crazy power attacks, and anything else you'd do with a high BAB.

Kazyan

2013-06-21, 08:42 PM

I think the feat OP is refering to might be Perfect TWF, considering how Monk is involved for possibly 2 extra attacks, and Fighter is there.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-21, 08:44 PM

I think the feat OP is refering to might be Perfect TWF, considering how Monk is involved for possibly 2 extra attacks, and Fighter is there.

I was thinking Perfect MWF myself, based on the "funky parents" line.

Snowbluff

2013-06-21, 09:36 PM

But that's the effect I'm specifically talking about in that quote, and the exact outcome that I'm pretty sure is incapable of occurring. The SRD states, "A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher." There's no mention of a 5th attack gained at +21, a 6th at +26, and etcetera. The only real benefit I can see from divine power, is that it gives you the BAB to make crazy power attacks, and anything else you'd do with a high BAB.

Well, at 1000 BaB and 6 attacks (flurry) with Power Attack, you do 6000 damage.

If the PrC is Eternal Blade, you'd be able to Time Stands Still for far more.

EDIT: Or Avalanche of Blades for potentially far more attacks.

eggynack

2013-06-21, 09:44 PM

Well, at 750 BaB and 6 attacks (flurry) with Power Attack, you do 4500 damage.
How do ya get to 750 BAB anyways? I'd figure that you'd be limited to 100 BAB, which would convert to 200 damage per hit. You'd probably have to make up the difference with multipliers of some kind, unless I'm missing something. I mean, you can get triple damage with spirited charge, so you'd want dire charge to get an effective pounce. That'd get you up to 600 damage per hit, on five attacks if you use a lance of speed. That's 3000 damage already, which is a pretty good start.

Snowbluff

2013-06-21, 09:47 PM

How do ya get to 750 BAB anyways? I'd figure that you'd be limited to 100 BAB, which would convert to 200 damage per hit. You'd probably have to make up the difference with multipliers of some kind, unless I'm missing something. I mean, you can get triple damage with spirited charge, so you'd want dire charge to get an effective pounce. That'd get you up to 600 damage per hit, on five attacks if you use a lance of speed. That's 3000 damage already, which is a pretty good start.

:smalltongue:

My brain is adding zeroes.

We only got one book, right?

eggynack

2013-06-21, 09:56 PM

:smalltongue:

My brain is adding zeroes.

We only got one book, right?
I guess, though that term has been ill defined. Just based on the terms of the challenge, the OP is already using at least core, as well as the epic level handbook. I'm inclined to think that it may be SRD+1, but I'm mostly just using SRD stuff for now. I could probably advance the whole ubercharger thing with other books, but hulking hurler is probably just the answer to everything if I can just pick a book. It can't be that hard to get this halfling permanently large.

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-21, 10:00 PM

I shall be stupid. Fighter 20/ Monk 19/ Cosmic Descryer 7.
I shall qualify for Cosmic Descryer with scrolls.

I shall use SRD+Tome of Battle for sources.

I shall then use Cosmic Connection.
I shall then Manifest Timeless Body from a Time Buttress Shield.
I shall then use Insightful Strike (courtesy of Martial Study).
I shall then use CC to apply +100 trillion or so to my AB (so I shall only miss on a natural one).
I shall also use CC to apply +100 trillion or so to my Concentration check which Insightful Strike has me roll for damage.

You shall then die while I shall take no damage thanks to Timeless Body.

I can do this at ECL 27.

I believe that Tippy shall Win as he has an arbitrarily high attack bonus and damage roll.

The only non SRD source used is Tome of Battle.

eggynack

2013-06-21, 10:05 PM

I believe that Tippy shall Win as he has an arbitrarily high attack bonus and damage roll.
Well, this is technically inaccurate. You have already won, prior to even posting, just by your very nature. Thus, due to winning being your general state, it's basically impossible for you to alter your state to a winning one. It's rather tragic, really.

Snowbluff

2013-06-21, 10:08 PM

Flickerdart

2013-06-21, 10:12 PM

Let's give it a shot using SRD.

At level 100, your WBL is well over a billion GP. You can use this money to purchase a +223 weapon and still have quite a bit of scratch remaining. We will get a stack of any throwing weapons, it doesn't matter.

Using your leftover money, hire a caster to make a simulacrum of a hecatoncheires, and make the simulacrum lower its immunity to mind-affecting spells. Hire a psion to manifest true mind switch on the simulacrum and then on you. Now you permanently occupy its body.

A hecatoncheires can make four hundred ranged attacks per round, for a total of 89,200 damage before applying base weapon damage, class features, or something like half of our WBL.

Your move, OP.

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-21, 10:13 PM

Let's give it a shot using SRD.

At level 100, your WBL is well over a billion GP. You can use this money to purchase a +223 weapon and still have quite a bit of scratch remaining. We will get a stack of any throwing weapons, it doesn't matter.

Using your leftover money, hire a caster to make a simulacrum of a hecatoncheires. Hire a psion to manifest true mind switch on the simulacrum and then on you. Now you permanently occupy its body.

A hecatoncheires can make four hundred ranged attacks per round, for a total of 89,200 damage before applying base weapon damage, class features, or something like half of our WBL.

Your move, OP.

Mine's better :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2013-06-21, 10:16 PM

Mine's better :smalltongue:
Yeah, but how much better could it be if it were a hecatoncheires?

BowStreetRunner

2013-06-21, 10:18 PM

The DMG doesn't contain Epic rules; those are in the ELH. So three books.

Um...check again...DMG page 206-210 under the heading EPIC CHARACTERS.

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-21, 10:19 PM

Yeah, but how much better could it be if it were a hecatoncheires?

None, because hecatoncheires only gets extra attacks and not extra strikes and Cosmic Descryer can't directly boost damage.

Better with being a Choker through Shapechange so that you can also throw out Greater Insightful strike to be able to do it twice in a round.

Phelix-Mu

2013-06-21, 10:43 PM

Well, this is technically inaccurate. You have already won, prior to even posting, just by your very nature. Thus, due to winning being your general state, it's basically impossible for you to alter your state to a winning one. It's rather tragic, really.

But would it not be win, if by some bizarre permutation of RAW, Tippy could so alter his nature?

And since it would be win, Tippy can so do.

Tippy simultaneously can and can not do so. Paradox. The universe collapses under the weight of logical inconsistency, and is replaced by the lone Tippy, bastion of win amid a universe of fail.

eggynack

2013-06-21, 10:57 PM

Thri-kreen Fighter 6/Monk 11/Assassin 80 with any weapon of Speed, MWFing with unarmed strikes, gets 28 attacks and then 5 more from natural weapons. Throw in full PA for +56 damage to all hits, +40d6 from Sneak Attack. Assuming everything hits and without even bothering with weapon or strength damage, we get something like 6500 damage. I'm sure that throwing in extra damage from the base weapon dice and Strength can make up much of the difference, but honestly, there are so many variables in this that it doesn't matter; we're not going to exactly hit the magic number.
You can probably make up some of the difference with my divine power thing. That'd pump your BAB to 100, so you get 100 damage on each hit from power attack. I haven't run the numbers, and am just assuming that yours are accurate, so that'd be an extra 44 damage per hit, for 1,452 damage spread across all 33 hits. That adds up to 7,952, so it's still off by like 900 damage, but it's certainly closer. The extra variables you mentioned probably push it over the top.

Edit: Well, that was an odd thing. I guess I could delete it, or toss the correction post into the quote post as an edit, but by this point, I'd probably just be better off keeping it as is, and having everyone mentally edit the whole thing in the way they find most suitable. You could imagine this post being sent into oblivion, or with more logic, or you could just keep it as is, as a reminder of a simpler time. You, my humble reader, know your heart better than I ever could.

Kazyan

2013-06-21, 10:58 PM

And I just noticed the "halfling" restriction in the title. Herp.

thethird

2013-06-22, 04:10 AM

How much health do enemies have at that level? because a rock skipping halfling loaded with aboleth mucus might drown them and actually do that damage in a round. :smalltongue:

TuggyNE

2013-06-22, 05:20 AM

How much health do enemies have at that level? because a rock skipping halfling loaded with aboleth mucus might drown them and actually do that damage in a round. :smalltongue:

Not that much.

Not, of course, that there are even any CR 100 enemies I know of outside of perhaps the Immortals Handbook or something.

Also, the idea is not to "meet or beat" the target; the idea is to reverse-engineer the precise build given a few vague constraints. Essentially, the knapsack problem. I won't say it's insoluble, but I hold no particular hope of anyone solving it before the heat death of the universe.

eggynack

2013-06-22, 05:27 AM

Also, the idea is not to "meet or beat" the target; the idea is to reverse-engineer the precise build given a few vague constraints. Essentially, the knapsack problem. I won't say it's insoluble, but I hold no particular hope of anyone solving it before the heat death of the universe.
Well, I figure that any build that manages to exactly hit the average 8839.5 damage of the OP, while remaining within something like his constraints, has succeeded at the challenge. Fortunately for us, we've got an enormous 100 level knapsack to work with, so as long as we get close, it's just a matter of shuffling around some of the specific feat choices. Unfortunately for us, we've got a ridiculously specific number to hit, and a ridiculously non-specific set of parameters. Like, are we not allowed more than one item, or are basic statistical enhancers OK? What the hell does "one book" mean? Seriously, what does one book mean? I just have no idea. This is a weird thread. I figure that a secondary goal is approximately coming up with the OP's combo, even if it doesn't get all the numbers just right. It's a bit close to mind reading, and depending on the definition of "one book", the combo could be just about anything. Sometimes, this thread makes me want to cry.

Elric VIII

2013-06-22, 05:33 AM

PersonMan

2013-06-22, 06:00 AM

But how do you get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill outside Core + ToB?

I'd imagine that's covered with "I shall qualify with scrolls".

shaikujin

2013-06-22, 08:19 AM

While working out a build, I find that even a straight monk ubercharger with just 4 monk levels can do 1.5 k damage per hit on average, and can get 5 flurry attacks, that's 7.5 k. Requires a few books though.

With only 1 splat book and min levels -

An 18 year old level 1 commoner with Festering Anger (BoVD) that spends all 18 years having a full rest at home.

13140 bonus to Str, that's +6570 to hit, +6570 to damage. Mounted charge with a lance = 13140 bonus to damage.

Feint's End

2013-06-22, 09:00 AM

then White Raven Tactics himself and do it all again before the opponents even got to act.

That doesn't work because every ability with "target: one ally / allys" has to explicitely state you also can target yourself with it to use it on yourself. White Raven Tactics on oneself is not possible by RAW and RAI.

Snowbluff

2013-06-22, 09:02 AM

No, you are your own ally.

Chronos

2013-06-22, 09:03 AM

RAW, it does work, since you are your own ally. RAI, that almost certainly wasn't intended, and so it's often houseruled to not include yourself, but even then, you can still have multiple characters in the party with WRT who use it on each other.

Feint's End

2013-06-22, 09:45 AM

eggynack

2013-06-22, 10:00 AM

Yeah you guys are right. Had to double check several sources now ... strange I could have sworn there was something preventing that but the only thing is the (inofficial) FAQ.
Anyways it's obivously so far from RAI that I don't know a single sane dm allowing that.
Outside of that one corner case, I don't think that counting yourself as an ally is a rule reserved only for insane DM's. It's really more of a problem with white raven tactics than a problem with the rules for allies.

drack

2013-06-22, 10:31 AM

The DMG doesn't contain Epic rules; those are in the ELH. So three books.

:smallsigh:DMG. It has the old epic rules before ELH was published, and it has basic templates for base classes

Um...check again...DMG page 206-210 under the heading EPIC CHARACTERS.
Bow street runner mentioned.

I was thinking Perfect MWF myself, based on the "funky parents" line.
Or parents that play with him? :smalltongue:
While not many feats, there are feats metnioned. Could lean on fighter for extra feats, could probably take a hurler PRC and get crazy, though my guess i that because there is monk in there he's going for more attacks. Think like fighter 16/monk 20 or something to get 7 attacks, then two weapon fight for 9-14 (multiweapon fight with a leg too or something if parents are that funky monks using their whole bodies and all...)

Assassiney PRCs give +1d6/2levels, so (100-36)/2=+32d6=+32*3.5=114, so a free 112 on each attack a schnazie item that either activates to do damage on a hit, or boosts something like str to add more damage. Power attack for +100, 25 ability boosts, so +at least 12 damage there, that makes it +226 damage before the item with an unknown number of attacks.

Anywho not really sure which way you'd wanna go from there, but my guess is that you did something relatively straightforward, and that because there is monk you were going for many heavy attacks. Could have used ELH but that'd be a pretty loose interpretation of what's "in the book". I could probably go further, but capping just over 8000/round (or several hundred for an attack) is pretty restrictive, and even had I known your interpretation of the whole multi/two weapon fighting thing, chances are I'd use another method to get the exact damage since there are way too many ways to do that in there. :smalltongue:

PersonMan

2013-06-22, 10:49 AM

Anyways it's obivously so far from RAI that I don't know a single sane dm allowing that.

Yeah, man, letting Bards benefit from Inspire Courage is just way too powerful for any sane DM to allow and totally not intended. Referring to "you are your own ally" in general.

Feint's End

2013-06-22, 11:21 AM

Yeah, man, letting Bards benefit from Inspire Courage is just way too powerful for any sane DM to allow and totally not intended. Referring to "you are your own ally" in general.

Man ... have you seen what bards do when they get THAT big of an advantage? They start becoming halfway decent melees! Now tell me that was intended

BowStreetRunner

2013-06-22, 01:06 PM

Only need one item, one book, some funky parents and a lot of time on our hands, and a reasonably liberal interpretation of the $%p#* @!?#*%&?& Feat.
My math might be off a bit, but if you folks know the game as well as you think you do, I suspect you should have this mystery solved in no time. =)
How'd I do it? Grand Prize is Patrick Stewart's gleaming forehead.
Go!

Are we supposed to take this literally, or as a riddle? Think about it...

Only need one item...This seems obviously to suggest the build only uses a single magic item.

...one book...Most of us are reading this to mean one source-book. I would think that something like the Manual of Gainful Exercise would count as an item, but since it is a use-and-discard item, the OP might not count it as a second item in that way.

...some funky parents...Are these the OP's parents? Or are we talking heritage feat?

...a lot of time on our hands...Again, time on the OP's hands, or is this a venerable halfling?

...a reasonably liberal interpretation of the $%p#* @!?#*%&?& Feat...So there is at least one feat that is prone to arguments regarding RAW/RAI.

Karnith

2013-06-22, 01:23 PM

DMG. It has the old epic rules before ELH was published, and it has basic templates for base classes
Small side note: the Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 book, and was published about a year or so before the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide came out, so it's actually the ELH that has the old epic rules.

drack

2013-06-22, 01:27 PM

Well if we're gong that rout we may as well point to 4th edition and call it all "old rules". In any case there is an eratta updating ELH to 3.5.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-22, 01:31 PM

I thought about making a multi-armed halfling monk/fighter/master thrower with Perfect MWF that would do EXACTLY 8839.5 damage per round throwing shurikens, but then I got bored and decided to refresh the same webpage a dozen times.

The really tricky part was trying to get something to do exactly .5 points of damage. The best I had thus far was to build something that did exactly 8838 damage (18 attacks at 466 a pop), followed by a bird pecking the enemy for 1d3 1d2 damage.

Flickerdart

2013-06-22, 01:33 PM

followed by a bird pecking the enemy for 1d3 damage.
The average of 1d3 is 2. The average of any even-sided die has a .5 in it.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-22, 01:35 PM

The average of 1d3 is 2. The average of any even-sided die has a .5 in it.

Gah, you're right, sorry. I was thinking one stage down from a d4, since 1d4 averages to 2.5. But since most dice are even sided, one stage down would be to 1d2.

Anyhow, that means a tiny bird won't need Improved Natural Attack, so it should make things easier...

Emperor Tippy

2013-06-22, 02:35 PM

But how do you get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill outside Core + ToB?

It's not a class skill. Just tons of HD. I shall alas have to use a Shapechange scroll to become a Barghest and then use scrolls of Gate to bring in creatures with ton of HD to feed upon so that I get the extra 9 HD that I need. I shall then use Psychic Reformation to move the correct number of ranks into Knowledge (The Planes).

I shall then have 9 levels drained "permanently".
I shall then get hit with a Restoration spell.
I shall thus get to move those HD into Cosmic Descryer.

Elric VIII

2013-06-22, 04:58 PM

It's not a class skill. Just tons of HD. I shall alas have to use a Shapechange scroll to become a Barghest and then use scrolls of Gate to bring in creatures with ton of HD to feed upon so that I get the extra 9 HD that I need. I shall then use Psychic Reformation to move the correct number of ranks into Knowledge (The Planes).

I shall then have 9 levels drained "permanently".
I shall then get hit with a Restoration spell.
I shall thus get to move those HD into Cosmic Descryer.

Ah, Barghest. It's like the prototype for Dusk Giant. Carry on.