Sword Lock damage

[Yuukale]

We had some swordmage|warlock threads but something is still a bit unclear to me: as a swordmage|warlock that's hellbent on dishing out dmg, what's the best route? Should he focus on his SM powers with feats or should he just build a charge-spammer? (which would then sound like he's better off as a rogue, exec|lock)

[Dan Arcueid]

Honestly your best bet with warlock is getting eldritch strike so you have a melee basic. generally you can be quite evil with swordmage by locking enemies down with aegis of assault, getting the white lotus feats that firstly make it take damage for attacking you, another that let's you shift after attacking, and using booming blade to make them take damage for moving.

All together you will then have your curse and warlock at-will ready to punish them hard for violation of that mark.

Otherwise i would try to get daylies from lock like crown of stars and such that gives you a sustain minor attack every turn.

Generally issue is lock isn't amazing damage but can do some nice controlling while swordmage is a defender so they're Sol on damage also.

With the way i mentioned it's not huge damage but huge potential punishment if a enemy does anything making you a threatening nuisance

Though in this case I've reduced the warlock to providing a mba and a couple nice daylies making it only a minor part and not the focus.

[Tegu8788]

You can make an insane defender from what I hear as a Swordmage|Warlock, and do very good damage, through curse and marking.

Though if you just want damage, a Warlock|Executioner is hard to beat, in at least low levels. Eldritch Strike is a Warlock power, so you get Curse damage, which can be boosted to 2d8 in heroic for two feats, but the power is also an MBA so it gets to add on all the Executioner features, and its also a chargeable attack so all that goodness gets tacked on. If you want you can also throw frost cheese onto it pretty easily. A human at level one can do 4d8 at-will, which is nothing to sneeze at.

However, it'll be like many Ranger builds, at-will over and over again. Mechanically it's a tad boring, but I'd say very powerful. It can even be built ignoring Dex entirely, using Assassin Strike and Daily Poisons, and just ignoring the two Executioner at-wills.

[Rhaegar14]

While I dunno what books you have access to, honestly, if you want a damage-dealing Swordlock, the answer is Hexblade, because that's pretty much exactly what Hexblade is.

[ghost_warlock]

I'll second what's been said before in that you want to grab Eldritch Strike for an MBA. However, I'll add that swordmage has access to a few decent immediate action attacks that you'll definitely want to take if you want to dish out damage. Warlock has a few of these as well, but they're few and far between (and, iirc, scattered between Con- and Cha-primary, so you'll probably only have access to about half of them).

Of course, if you care at all about your curse damage (which you will for opportunity attacks as well as your standard action attacks), you should probably go with Sorcerer King pact for the Mindbite Scorn feat. If you make it to deep paragon there's a couple warlock powers that grant your allies attacks with your curse damage as extra damage so everything you can do to add curse die is good (there's a level 16 daily utility that adds two dice, Vile Resonance, for a total of five at that level if you have Mindbite Scorn).

In low levels, of course, focus on stuff that buffs your MBA (Iron Armbands of Power) and grab some charge boosters, as well. Vanguard Weapon, Badge of the Berserker, etc.

[vasharanpaladin]

While I dunno what books you have access to, honestly, if you want a damage-dealing Swordlock, the answer is Hexblade, because that's pretty much exactly what Hexblade is.

Except a Swordlock does practically everything better in every possible way.

[Rhaegar14]

Except a Swordlock does practically everything better in every possible way.

I think that's a biiiit of an overstatement. With a starting 18 in your secondary OR an ED that boosts it, a Hexblade's Pact Reward does more damage than Warlock's Curse (unless you take both Mindbite Scorn and Killing Curse, but I'm trying to avoid assuming specific pacts because of a point I'm going to make later, and even then it's close), and that's without having to curse targets. The encounter powers are, admittedly, a loss, but Eldritch Bolt can be retrained into any Warlock At-Will (at least, according to Character Builder), and Summon Warlock's Ally can be retrained into any Warlock Daily. On top of that, the encounter powers might not be special, but you still have three of them (well, two with two uses of one), and one is an Interrupt. All of the Pact Blade At-Wills can be used as MBAs, so you still get as much of your chargecheese as your Ability Scores will let you qualify for, and I'd argue that several of them have better effects than a slide adjacent.

To me, though, the biggest argument in Hexblade's favor is simplicity. There's a lot to be said for not having to jump through hoops to make a build work; a Hexblade can work with any Pact, whereas any standard Warlock Pact but Sorcerer-King is going to be heavily lacking in melee powers that fit the whole "swordsman" theme, and Charisma pacts are going to suffer from a lack of stat synergy. On top of that, a Swordlock is down at least three feats on a Hexblade to outdamage the latter round-by-round with At-Wills; Killing Curse, Mindbite Scorn, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency, since the Pact Blades are all as good as Exotic weapons. You'll probably want a fourth feat for Hybrid Talent, too.

Admittedly, though, if you want some Defender in the mix, the choice is undoubtedly Swordlock. Another concession I'll make is that in my personal experience, my DM violates my marks with a frustrating lack of frequency (I'm our party's main Defender). So I might not be giving the extra damage from Aegis of Assault enough credit.

[vasharanpaladin]

The catch, though, is that the Pact Reward has zero support in feats, PPs or equipment. Warlock's Curse has all that.

As for simplicity... no comment. Having played a hexblade before I can argue that yes, it is simple, and yes, it's hard not to put up some pretty impressive numbers round-by-round... but it's so boring. Hexblades, like the other melee subclasses given us in Essentials, focus on their at-wills, sometimes to the detriment of their other powers. They can't spike, they can barely nova, the only way they can come close to matching pre-E Strikers on their spike rounds is to charge. Every round. All the time.

And that's only if they're using the Fey Pact of the Winter Court.

Meanwhile, the Swordlock? Feats aside (I won't argue they're a bit hungry in that regard), I'm looking at a veritable treasure trove of options. Close burst at-will. MBA at-will. Encounter powers for ranged damage, ranged control, melee swording, melee touch with buffs. Daily powers with similar. I might not be as good with all-out damage, at least per-round, but at least I can handle situations where control or buffing would be more helpful!

...But with that said, I'm willing to agree to disagree here. Hexblades aren't my thing, Swordlocks don't seem to be yours, but surely we can agree they're both viable ways to express the concept? Though, personally, I see the Swordlock as more like 3.5's duskblade, while the hexblade seems more like the old soulknife. Eh. You play yours, I'll play mine, just try not to run each other through in the process, no? :smallbiggrin:

[Rhaegar14]

I don't hate the Swordlock at all, I think it's an awesome concept, if you're looking for some Defender mixed with your Striker, and I'd love to try one some time. But:


...as a swordmage|warlock that's hellbent on dishing out dmg, what's the best route?

My argument is that Hexblade is the better choice if all you want is damage. As far as options go, the Swordlock is unquestionably winning.

[Zaq]

A well-made Swordlock has far higher damage output than any Hexblade, at least past the very lowest levels. Between double-tap powers, better access to immediates, and far and away better feat support, the Swordlock blows the Hexblade out of the water. That's not even getting into access to elemental fun.

Essentials strikers can be decent at low levels, but real classes far and away out damage them in the long run. Even by late Heroic, classes with real encounter powers are going to be bringing far more to the table than the basic attack spammers are.

[vasharanpaladin]

My argument is that Hexblade is the better choice if all you want is damage. As far as options go, the Swordlock is unquestionably winning.

And those options are what make the Swordlock superior, as evidenced above. My argument came from the experience of a Leader-inclined hybrid, there's clearly more than one way to go about it. Unlike a hexblade. :smallwink:

[Yuukale]

A well-made Swordlock has far higher damage output than any Hexblade, at least past the very lowest levels. Between double-tap powers, better access to immediates, and far and away better feat support, the Swordlock blows the Hexblade out of the water. That's not even getting into access to elemental fun.

Essentials strikers can be decent at low levels, but real classes far and away out damage them in the long run. Even by late Heroic, classes with real encounter powers are going to be bringing far more to the table than the basic attack spammers are.


What would be your recommendations? I've come to think that charging is underusing the SM's aegis, given that most dmg will come from Eldritch Strike and charge-op.

Here's what I came up with:

The idea is to maximize my teleports and the charging. I believe there are lots of room to improve this guy's damage, not necessarily with teleport shenanigans.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sword|Lock Charger, level 16
Eladrin, Swordmage|Warlock, Long Night Scion
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Fey Pact (Hybrid)
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Hybrid Warlock: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Eladrin Subrace: Sun Elf (Eladrin)
Select option: Eladrin Skill Bonuses
Select option: Wizard Implement Proficiency
Select option: Eladrin Education

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 14, Dex 17, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16.

AC: 29 Fort: 23 Reflex: 25 Will: 29
HP: 102 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +16, History +18, Intimidate +19, Arcana +18, Thievery +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +11, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +10, Heal +8, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +11, Streetwise +14, Athletics +9

FEATS
Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 2: White Lotus Evasion
Level 4: Sneak of Shadows
Level 6: Renewed by Blood
Level 8: Nimble Blade
Level 10: Wintertouched
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 12: White Lotus Master Evasion
Level 14: Surprising Charge
Level 16: Eladrin Swordmage Advance

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Booming Blade

ITEMS
Frost Rapier +3, Shadowrift Blade Accurate dagger +3, Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier), Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Badge of the Berserker +3, Cloak of Translocation +3, Horned Helm (paragon tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Eladrin Ring of Passage (paragon tier), Eladrin Braidmail Armor +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[ghost_warlock]

I'm pretty sure that Light Blade Expertise doesn't apply to implement powers, only weapon powers, so you might want to consider swapping it out for War Wizard's Expertise (from Dragon 402). It applies a feat bonus to attack rolls (like any other expertise feat) to both weapon and implement attacks with a light or heavy blade, while also applying a -5 penalty to hit your allies. Stacks with War Wizardry (if you ever feel like you'd need that).

Also, unless you need to qualify as a rogue for some reason, Practiced Killer (assassin multiclass) might be better than Sneak of Shadows as it doesn't require you hit with any particular weapon or with combat advantage. Also, the skill training won't be redundant with what you already get from warlock (thievery). In addition, since you then qualify as an assassin and a warlock, you can nab the Cursed Shadows feat to get Shadow Walk.

BTW, I don't see a Hybrid Talent feat anywhere in your build. You might want to consider picking that up - I think you need it to get your swordmage aegis defensive bonus.

You should also probably rework your ability scores - you seem to have applied your bonuses from leveling to Dex rather than Int. You need Int to hit with your swordmage powers and at 16th level you should probably have at least a 20-22 Int. Absolutely do not sacrifice +2 to-hit for +2 to Initiative and thievery skill checks.

[Yuukale]

Surprising Charge feat needs fighter or rogue and 17 dex. I get to deal an extra 1[W] on a charge to someone who's granting combat advantage.

[ghost_warlock]

That's a lot of dubious hoops to jump through for 1[W] damage. =| Especially considering you can get a level 3 weapon that does the same thing (Vanguard weapon deals +1d8 damage on any charge, and you don't even need combat advantage).

[Kurald Galain]

Surprising Charge feat needs fighter or rogue and 17 dex. I get to deal an extra 1[W] on a charge to someone who's granting combat advantage.

That's still worth less than +1 to hit. If you don't hit on your charge, you deal zero damage.

[vasharanpaladin]

That's still worth less than +1 to hit. If you don't hit on your charge, you deal zero damage.

Surprising Charge is usually gold for those who qualify.

I say "usually" because stacking [w]'s is better when using bigger weapons. The rogue (thief) and assassin (executioner) can only optimize their DPR by charging, so they want it. Fighter (slayer) and most pre-E "big weapon" Strikers have access to the gouge, and so they'll look hard at the charge-op package whenever they consider their options.

The swordmage? Has other ways to trick out damage (read: Aegis of Assault), and further, is Int-primary. Surprising Charge is not only unnecessary, but detrimental.

[Kurald Galain]

Surprising Charge is usually gold for those who qualify.
Yes, and by "those that qualify" we mean "those that can afford the feat while still boosting their primary stat at every opportunity".
:smallbiggrin: