Hit points are too high?

[heavyfuel]

Context:

I'm starting a campaign with some friends in a couple weeks, so I was re-reading the DMG for anything I might have forgotten. I reached the point where they talk about building a world set in a different time.

In this section, they describe bombs. Bombs cost 150GP, take a full round action to throw (1 move action to light it, 1 standard to throw) and deal 2d6 (average 7 damage!!!) fire damage in a 5ft radius and a DC 15 reflex save halves it. As I was looking at it, all I could think was that bombs are the worst weapons in the entire game.

And this got me thinking. In Real Life, if a person was hit by a bomb, they'd probably be way more damaged than just a few scratches and first degree burns. Same goes for a heavy crossbow hit to the forehead. No one would just walk away from that.

TL;DR/Question:

I know D&D isn't real life and it's supposed to be epic. But sometimes it feels a bit too much. Is there a supplementary rule that gives (N)PCs and Monsters more grounded HP and adjusted damage?

EDIT: Some people seem to be missing the point here. I know that the average Joe in D&D would probably die from an explosion or a crowssbow hit, and I know that people don't cast spells in real life, but these things are not the point.

The point is that you're stronger than freaking superman by the time you reach level 10. As if after killing some orcs your body stopped being flesh and became steel. The point is that no matter how sturdy you are, you're still human, and no human should survive crossbow hits to the head.

I want a system where level = fighting ability, not just the ability to sleep while a kobold wacks at you because he'll be dealing for 0,5% of your HP every time he rolls a natural 20.

[ko_sct]

There's the vitality and wound point alternate rule that you can find in unearthed arcanas (or online here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm ) That I know some people like, I've never tried it myself but I keep meaning to, I just forget to bring it up every time my group start a new game.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but it's a start !

Edit: Also, all the weapons in that section a pretty badly designed, I wouldn't use them if I were you.

[Flickerdart]

And this got me thinking. In Real Life, if a person was hit by a bomb, they'd probably be way more damaged than just a few scratches and first degree burns. Same goes for a heavy crossbow hit to the forehead. No one would just walk away from that.
A real person is a 1st level Commoner or Expert, and has anywhere from 1 to maybe 8 hit points. Both a heavy crossbow and a bomb will leave them heavily injured or dying.

[Edge of Dreams]

3 key points, which I'm sure others would be happy to elaborate on:

1) A 5th level fighter is on par with Aragorn or the strongest real humans ever to live. By 10th level, you're basically Hercules. (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

2) Hit points don't necessarily represent wounds, depending on how you interpret them.

3) Small bombs are definitely survivable. Ever seen someone injured by 4th of July fireworks? Those are bombs. Not all explosives are instant death. Fragmentation grenades ("frags") for example, in real life, don't kill you by the force of the explosion. They kill you by having sharp shrapnel packed around the explosive, which flys outward and cuts into you.

[Slipperychicken]

In Real Life

People don't kill dragons or cast magic in real life, either.

[SowZ]

Context:

I'm starting a campaign with some friends in a couple weeks, so I was re-reading the DMG for anything I might have forgotten. I reached the point where they talk about building a world set in a different time.

In this section, they describe bombs. Bombs cost 150GP, take a full round action to throw (1 move action to light it, 1 standard to throw) and deal 2d6 (average 7 damage!!!) fire damage in a 5ft radius and a DC 15 reflex save halves it. As I was looking at it, all I could think was that bombs are the worst weapons in the entire game.

And this got me thinking. In Real Life, if a person was hit by a bomb, they'd probably be way more damaged than just a few scratches and first degree burns. Same goes for a heavy crossbow hit to the forehead. No one would just walk away from that.

TL;DR/Question:

I know D&D isn't real life and it's supposed to be epic. But sometimes it feels a bit too much. Is there a supplementary rule that gives (N)PCs and Monsters more grounded HP and adjusted damage?

Trust me, at high levels of play damage scales much faster than HP. It's high levels and spells and magic weapons that deal damage, not superior technology in D&D. The Vitality Point system already discussed might help you some.

[heavyfuel]

A real person is a 1st level Commoner or Expert, and has anywhere from 1 to maybe 8 hit points. Both a heavy crossbow and a bomb will leave them heavily injured or dying.

I know that, but still, the most badass of heroes - even from our myths and legends - aren't as strong as lv5 warrior.

It's certainly fun to have a single person that can take out entire armies, but it also gets old rather quickly.

[ArcturusV]

Well, you have to figure that about 95% of the NPCs in the world? Have like 4 HP. Your Bomb is likely to not outright kill them, but put them into the bleeding and probably going to die without help territory.

So a bomb being about to seriously nearly kill about 95% of the population does make it serious.

Of course they're also not talking about things pineapple frag grenades, like we think of it. What they're talking about are more like the "Grenades" of the Renaissance. They were loud, unpredictable, and hardly as deadly as we think of "Bombs". You're talking like a 1" thick pig iron shell with a fuse and a mass of black powder inside. The results are nowhere near as predictable.

The plus side is that they can be made without spellcasting like Alchemist's Fire requires by RAW.

Also you have to figure that people who even fail their Reflex save aren't just taking a bomb right to the chest. They're just caught in a blast radius. If they DIVE on a bomb, or otherwise willingly put it up next to them? Have it do something like a CDG on them. Max Damage, Crit, require a saving throw versus instantly dying. Maybe a 75% chance they lose at least one limb.

[Sylthia]

To give it a non-magical point of comparison, non-magical fire deals d6 points of damage for every 6 seconds a person is in it.

[SowZ]

I know that, but still, the most badass of heroes - even from our myths and legends - aren't as strong as lv5 warrior.

It's certainly fun to have a single person that can take out entire armies, but it also gets old rather quickly.

Actually, no. Lvl. 20 does not represent Aragorn and Conan. It is Hercules and Beowulf, people who really COULD shrug off a bomb like nothing. If you want Aragorn style heroes, try E6.

[Jeff the Green]

Actually, no. Lvl. 20 does not represent Aragorn and Conan. It is Hercules and Beowulf, people who really COULD shrug off a bomb like nothing. If you want Aragorn style heroes, try E6.

Even Hercules and Beowulf probably weren't level 20. Maybe level 10. Maybe.

[heavyfuel]

I made an Edit to the OP to clarify a few thing.


There's the vitality and wound point alternate rule that you can find in unearthed arcanas (or online here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm ) That I know some people like, I've never tried it myself but I keep meaning to, I just forget to bring it up every time my group start a new game.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but it's a start !

Edit: Also, all the weapons in that section a pretty badly designed, I wouldn't use them if I were you.

Thanks for the hint, I'll definitely check it out.

[Edge of Dreams]

Yeah, if all you're looking for is an alternate HP system, Vitality+Wounds is the way to go, especially if you have a rule like FantasyCraft uses where crits deal damage directly to your wounds score.

[JusticeZero]

Ya, if these things really bug you use E6 rules.

[SowZ]

Even Hercules and Beowulf probably weren't level 20. Maybe level 10. Maybe.

Beowulf was probably closer to 10. Hercules likely exceeds 10, he did a lot of crazy stuff. I peg him at around 14 or so based on the monsters he single handedly defeats.

[ArcturusV]

Just to pick at the edit a bit: You wouldn't sleep, even as a level 10 fighter, against a Kobold. A Coup De Grace would still be a serious enough threat. You certainly wouldn't go "eh... it was only 20 damage" and give him a second shot at it either.

The Coup de Grace rules really are your best friend for making things like that properly lethal if you are fed up with players ignoring the fact that some guy has a dagger up against their spine because "Pssh, it's only 1d4 plus what, 4 str at best?".

Especially if they didn't realize the guy with a knife was a rogue.

Speaking of which... any reason you can't Sneak Attack with a Bomb? Having some slight AoE (only would really matter against swarms, small and smaller critters, etc)? Would be kinda funny. Especially if you have metagame minded players who go "Pssh it's only 2d6" and try to tank it, to find out it was thrown by a level 20 Rogue and actually is doing 12d6 to their level 10 self, enough to not exactly be just a laugh.

[Rhynn]

I know that, but still, the most badass of heroes - even from our myths and legends - aren't as strong as lv5 warrior.

It's certainly fun to have a single person that can take out entire armies, but it also gets old rather quickly.

I heartily recommend:
1. Old editions of D&D: after 9th or 10th level, depending on class, you only get +1-3 hp/level, and if it's not AD&D, then most classes use a smaller HD; 1d8 for fighters etc. To top it off, pre-AD&D, Con modifiers are smaller, and in all of the games (except AD&D 1E with UA), high ability scores are rarer. See my sig for links to free ones.
2. Conan d20, where massive damage rules mean that death is much more likely (and, since the threshold doesn't increase, actually becomes more likely at higher levels, since the chances of the threshold being exceeded by non-criticals rise dramatically).
3. Artesia: Adventures in the Known World, where armor makes sense but an unarmored fighter can be killed by one good hit, and there's an elegant system for specific injuries.
4. HârnMaster, where injuries, well, hurt.
5. L5R, which is more abstraction than realism, but one sword-blow can kill you.
6. Rolemaster/MERP, where hit point loss is hardly ever what kills you.
7. The Riddle of Steel, with a combination of amazing realism, elegance, and playability in the best medieval/ancient hand-to-hand combat rules (and pretty good archery/early firearm rules).
8. RuneQuest (currently RuneQuest 6), where hit points do not increase (unless you actually become tougher or bigger somehow).

[SowZ]

Just to pick at the edit a bit: You wouldn't sleep, even as a level 10 fighter, against a Kobold. A Coup De Grace would still be a serious enough threat. You certainly wouldn't go "eh... it was only 20 damage" and give him a second shot at it either.

The Coup de Grace rules really are your best friend for making things like that properly lethal if you are fed up with players ignoring the fact that some guy has a dagger up against their spine because "Pssh, it's only 1d4 plus what, 4 str at best?".

Especially if they didn't realize the guy with a knife was a rogue.

Speaking of which... any reason you can't Sneak Attack with a Bomb? Having some slight AoE (only would really matter against swarms, small and smaller critters, etc)? Would be kinda funny. Especially if you have metagame minded players who go "Pssh it's only 2d6" and try to tank it, to find out it was thrown by a level 20 Rogue and actually is doing 12d6 to their level 10 self, enough to not exactly be just a laugh.

Level 20 rogues shouldn't be running around willy nilly, but I see your point. Still, throwing damage optimized dudes at the party and changing rules to make HP less enduring actually highlights weakness's in the system as opposed to highlighting its strengths.



I want a system where level = fighting ability, not just the ability to sleep while a kobold wacks at you because he'll be dealing for 0,5% of your HP every time he rolls a natural 20.

What you want is E6. A variant that scales D&D play up to 6th level wherein players cap out. Beyond level 6, you spend XP on feats. Your hit dice, base attack bonus, and class abilities cannot increase. Though you can round out your skills and gain more tricks. Which seems to be precisely what you want.

[Flickerdart]

I know that, but still, the most badass of heroes - even from our myths and legends - aren't as strong as lv5 warrior.

It's certainly fun to have a single person that can take out entire armies, but it also gets old rather quickly.
Then you've been reading the wrong myths and legends. Guys who can fight a dragon for three days straight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrynya_Nikitich), lead a small troop against a massive army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonidas_I), punch out giants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh), wield weapons that make them nigh-impossible to kill (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KingArthur), defeat monsters that no blade can harm, and its more powerful mother, underwater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf) all have a place in my D&D. I don't know about yours.

[Edge of Dreams]

8. RuneQuest (currently RuneQuest 6), where hit points do not increase (unless you actually become tougher or bigger somehow).

I'll second Runequest 6 as an excellent D&D alternative, if anyone's looking for such. Combat is freaking deadly in that game, but it also has the nice feature that going to zero HP in a location (it uses separate HP for head/chest/abs/arms/legs) only disables a limb or incapacitates you. It's not until you get to negative HP equal to your original HP that you actually risk death, so it's common for players or enemies to drop unconscious or surrender before they actually get killed.

[Emperor Tippy]

Combat is hideously deadly in D&D if you do it right.

I kill my players in D&D about as often as I do in Shadowrun.

Death just doesn't matter all that much in D&D.

I mean at level 20 we will generally have someone die every round or two of combat and then be ressed in one way or another to continue the fight. Eventually one side will run out of resses or be made impossible to res for one reason or another and that is that.

[Rhynn]

Then you've been reading the wrong myths and legends. Guys who can fight a dragon for three days straight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrynya_Nikitich), lead a small troop against a massive army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonidas_I), punch out giants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh), wield weapons that make them nigh-impossible to kill (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KingArthur), defeat monsters that no blade can harm, and its more powerful mother, underwater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf) all have a place in my D&D. I don't know about yours.

Nitpick: the scabbard of Excalibur protected from bleeding (either by forestalling death or stopping bleeding entirely). Cutting the bearer's head off, etc., would still work. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Gawain_and_the_Green_Knight)


I'll second Runequest 6 as an excellent D&D alternative, if anyone's looking for such. Combat is freaking deadly in that game, but it also has the nice feature that going to zero HP in a location (it uses separate HP for head/chest/abs/arms/legs) only disables a limb or incapacitates you. It's not until you get to negative HP equal to your original HP that you actually risk death, so it's common for players or enemies to drop unconscious or surrender before they actually get killed.

Any edition of RuneQuest is awesome. I dislike the slight HP inflation after 3E, about +2 HP to each location (so effectively +4, since before 0 is all "buffer"), although the reduction of APs (plate from 8 to 6, no 12 AP iron plate, and absolutely no stacked iron plate + iron chain for 22 AP) helps some. Of course, in 3E, you ended up needing that 22 AP at levels of play where it was possible to get that much iron armor...

RQ6 is pretty stellar, though. The continuity from Mongoose RuneQuest is nice, and they keep fixing issues that I had. Rabble/Underling HP rules speed up combat hugely, and using the same actions for attacks and defenses speeds things up, too.


I mean at level 20 we will generally have someone die every round or two of combat and then be ressed in one way or another to continue the fight. Eventually one side will run out of resses or be made impossible to res for one reason or another and that is that.

Funnily enough, I've had high-level RuneQuest play much the same. The same character got mortally wounded/killed probably five rounds in a row in one combat, and kept putting himself back together (well, he wasn't actually losing limbs, and it was his bound healing spirit doing the healing). The hilarious thing, of course, is that this fits in perfectly with the world's lore. See the short story Morden Defends the Camp by Greg Stafford himself (creator of Glorantha) in Gloranthan Visions: one hero specifically plans an attack where he will get killed in mid-air, put himself together, and deliver an unexpected mortal blow. (It gets countered.)

But that's pretty far from the standard, default, or expected RQ experience. That game will stretch.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is noone going to comment on the fact that the bomb in question is merely a wax-paper sack filled with a single pound of renaissance era black-powder and a fuze?

This is -not- a bomb like you see in movies (though neither are any real bombs, movie bombs have more fire and smoke added for dramatic effect), it's comparable to the mortar style fireworks used in professional pyrotechnics displays. It'll burn you but, unless you're holding it or throw yourself on it, the concussion from the blast isn't going to do much more than hurt your ears.

[CRtwenty]

Is noone going to comment on the fact that the bomb in question is merely a wax-paper sack filled with a single pound of renaissance era black-powder and a fuze?

This is -not- a bomb like you see in movies (though neither are any real bombs, movie bombs have more fire and smoke added for dramatic effect), it's comparable to the mortar style fireworks used in professional pyrotechnics displays. It'll burn you but, unless you're holding it or throw yourself on it, the concussion from the blast isn't going to do much more than hurt your ears.

ArcturusV mentioned it a few posts back. Though the conversation has moved onto a slightly different topic now.

[Kelb_Panthera]

ArcturusV mentioned it a few posts back. Though the conversation has moved onto a slightly different topic now.

Ah. My mistake then.

Still a valid point worth repeating.

[JellyPooga]

I've long considered implementing some homebrew rules where your Hit Dice type becomes a sort of defence roll against the base weapon damage of whatever you're being hit with to determine the severity of the wound type before deducting from HP or what-have-you.

E.g. a Barbarian with his d12 HD gets hit by a dude wielding a longsword with a base damage of 1d8. The attacker rolls his d8 for damage (he doesn't add Str or other damage modifiers) and the Barbarian rolls 1d12 (regardless of his level). If the attacker rolls less than the Barbarian, he just does normal damage (adding his Str mod and so forth to his damage roll) to the Barbarians HP. If the attacker rolls higher than the Barbarian, then the hit is treated as a Coup de Grace or the damage is multiplied by a certain factor or something (I haven't really thought about this one too much...there's a lot of factors to consider, what with the myriad class features, feats and such).

Then again, the Wound points/Vitality system achieves much the same effect without having to get a headache working out the details. I've just always wanted to have the HD-type be more important than just providing a random number generator for HP (thus making Fighter types and certain monster types, like Undead, inherently tougher than non-fighters or weaker monster types, even if they have lower HP due to poor rolling, lower Con or not taking the Toughness feat a bazillion times).

[Morty]

Hit points in D&D are most definitely bloated. There's epic heroism, and then there's being completely ridiculous, and the amount of punishment D&D characters can take swiftly heads in the direction of the latter, even before you reach high levels.

[Andezzar]

The other problem with the setting is that it arbitrarily states that the majority of NPCs are level 1 and balances some of the more mundane items around that statement, instead of balancing the damage around mid to high level PCs.

PCs can go from level 1 to 20 in under a year (254 challenging encounters), whereas commoners who (unless they are hermits) regularly encounter more difficult challenges (other level 1 commoners) are largely supposed not to level up.

The problem is the large spectrum of characters in D&D. If you balance mundane items and physics not around level 1 commoners but mid to high level PCs, the first levels get too deadly because many of those things are available at level 1. If you do it like D&D does PCs can eat grenades for breakfast.

[Kristinn]

While the "eating a black powder bomb to the face" might break verisimilitude for some, I don't think that's the point. Combat is instantaneously deadly on every single level in 3.5 DnD.

For an optimized damage dealer, be it Mailman or Charger, it should be no problem to kill most PCs in one or two rounds.

If you find combat in your games getting dragged out over more than 5 rounds, then you should consider E6 for you gaming group until they learn to optimize.

[CRtwenty]

Hit points in D&D are most definitely bloated. There's epic heroism, and then there's being completely ridiculous, and the amount of punishment D&D characters can take swiftly heads in the direction of the latter, even before you reach high levels.

Yes, but it's necessary to survive high level encounters. The system is designed based on characters having those levels of HP. If you reduce it you're going to be losing PCs left and right.

Hell, HP loss isn't even the main killer of PCs. Failing Saving Throws is.

[PersonMan]

There's epic heroism, and then there's being completely ridiculous, and the amount of punishment D&D characters can take swiftly heads in the direction of the latter, even before you reach high levels.

Replace 'ridiculous' with 'awesome' and you'll get the opinion of quite a few people, as well.

DnD is more for the crowd who thinks "epic heroes should have nothing to fear from anything but things approaching their level" than the ones who say "no matter how powerful you are, you die from a slit throat". For the latter, HP is insanely bloated and characters are absurdly tough. For the former, why should the shaking youth barely able to hold his dagger be a threat to the killer of dragons, even if the latter is asleep?

There are ways (Variants, homebrew, low levels, etc.) to twist the system towards the latter view, but it's made for the former.

It's not a bad hammer, it's a screwdriver.

[Abaddona]

For me it's quite easy - level 1 rogue is holding knife on my 20 levels fighter throat - hey, he is just a kido who saw nothing and i battled dragons, no worry - i can just grab his hand before he slits my throat, he at worst will scratch me a little.
Some guy sneaking around during my sleep preparing to finish me? Hey, i rested in caves and other places where no one dares to venture and he is just a newbie - i literaly "felt" when he unsheathed his blade and managed to shift an inch, sure - that blow hurt like hell but he missed vital organs.
Hey look - that kid throwed a bomb at me - it's just little childs toy and i survived dragons breath (and it stinked like hell... well, to be precise nine hells stink more but it was close second place) - all i need is to put my shield/sword/whatever-is-nearby that way and it will absorb all the blast.

Of course that leaves another problem - dnd is severely lacking good mundane items. You are basicaly exptected that after level three you will be using magical items and no one in the world thought about making this alchemical fire/acid stronger or making bigger more devastating bombs. As a result probably the only means to severely hurt high level heroes is through magic (or using quantity over quality - one vial of alchemical fire is 1d6, full bag with 100 vials is a little more :-) ).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Threre is at least -one- alchemical item that's on-par with a magical attack up until level 10. Secrets of Sarlona's explosive packs. A 10lb charge does the same damage in the same area as a CL 10 fireball. It can also be placed to do double or even triple damage against a stationary object. IIRC, it's 300gp per 2lbs: market price, but if you craft it yourself (hello magical training feat) it's only 500gp for a pretty impressive bomb.

[Seharvepernfan]

I have two things to say:

1. Some people are tougher than you would imagine, and can indeed take a heavy crossbow to the head and keep going. This is because they have very dense bone, tough tissues, a resistance to shock, or the bolt just didnt hit any important areas. Many people have survived spikes going through their heads, or multiple bullet wounds. Fun fact: if you are shot, you have a very high chance of surviving if you get to a hospital within one hour.

2. In my houserules, I lowered the Massive Damage threshold to (con score + 2xHD) (DC 15 +1 per 4 points over threshold). I haven't had much chance to playtest it. I also made it so that if someone rolls two twenties in a row, and confirms a third attack roll, the blow is treated as a Coup De Grace.

Maybe try something like that out?

[JellyPooga]

Threre is at least -one- alchemical item that's on-par with a magical attack up until level 10.

There's also the Ditherbombs from Races of the Dragon. They're horrifically overpriced in my opinion, but they can deal a fair amount of damage on a lucky roll.

[Invader]

While the "eating a black powder bomb to the face" might break verisimilitude for some, I don't think that's the point. Combat is instantaneously deadly on every single level in 3.5 DnD.

For an optimized damage dealer, be it Mailman or Charger, it should be no problem to kill most PCs in one or two rounds.

If you find combat in your games getting dragged out over more than 5 rounds, then you should consider E6 for you gaming group until they learn to optimize.

This really sounds like you're saying if you don't optimize your doing it wrong and shouldn't play. :smallconfused:

[PersonMan]

He's saying, I think, something more like "hit points are not a problem; there exist methods to bypass them entirely as well as just burn through them".

[Eldest]

no human should survive crossbow hits to the head

You know somebody's had an iron railroad rail go through his head and he lived for a long while after? The story of Rasputin and his assassination attempts? People fall from very high up and live?

[limejuicepowder]

Are we really having this discussion again?

The most important thing to remember when comparing DnD wounds to real life is that no one in history has exceeded level 5, and the ones that have reached that lofty peak are few and far between. Further to the point, most people who have managed to reach "level 5" didn't do so until late in life, and were never warrior-types to begin with. Thus, even many level 5's wouldn't have much more, or even less, than a hardy, strong level 1 when it comes to "hit points."

Next, the idea that "no one should survive having their throat slit, or a bolt/arrow to the head" is incredibly false. 50 cent famously got shot 9 times; according to the DMG a pistol does a minimum of 2 damage, translating to 18 damage. Since he was young and healthy, I think we can safely assume he has a decent con score of 14. A level 2 commoner with 14 con has 10.5 hit points. Taking 18 would put him at -8. Critical condition and dying, but not dead outright. Good fort save to stabilize and speedy medical attention lets him live.

The chance of rolling minimum damage 9 times in a row is incredibly small of course, but it's possible. Tweaking his levels and or con score would dramatically change that chance too. Even Expert 2 with 16 con gives him 15.5 hit points, creating a lot more latitude for damage.

My point is this: people survive crazy stuff all the time. Making blanket statements like "there's no way ANYONE could survive this, especially people who's job it is to get hurt" is absurd.

[Seharvepernfan]

no one in history has exceeded level 5

Why? Because 5th level is all you need to reach human maximums via optimization? How do you know there haven't been any level 10's who weren't particularly focused on any one thing?

I see 12th as real-life maximum (well, not "maximum", but "highest ever [probably]").

[Kristinn]

This really sounds like you're saying if you don't optimize your doing it wrong and shouldn't play. :smallconfused:

I will clarify. OP complains about hit point being to high relative to damage. I point out that using the system to its fullest extends (optimizing instead of taking Weapon Focus), this is not an issue at all, but rather, your hit point only last you one round or two.

Then I propose that as his group probably doesn't optimize, since hit points last them so long, that an alternative solution is to limit HD growth, using the E6 subsystem. Hit points stop growing at lvl. 6, but with feats you can still increase damage output.

[Flickerdart]

Why? Because 5th level is all you need to reach human maximums via optimization? How do you know there haven't been any level 10's who weren't particularly focused on any one thing?

I see 12th as real-life maximum (well, not "maximum", but "highest ever [probably]").
Do you have any evidence to back that up? The level 5 figure has been backed up over and over again, and saying "well I think you're wrong" is not really contributing anything.

[themourningstar]

What hit points represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

I had the same issue, when trying to think about why a high level fighter could take more physical punishment than a low level one. The answer is that both damage and hit points are abstractions. It isn't necessarily "My arrow goes through your eye for eight damage and you die" for a level 1 fighter vs "My arrow goes through your eye for eight damage and you jerk it out and wink at me" for a 10th level fighter.
The higher level character can't necessarily be ripped limb from limb and survive- instead, when that arrow streaked towards his eye, he doged enough that it only grazed him. That bomb that you threw at that 20th level rogue? He was doing a "Neo", twisting and tumbling through the air to avoid the shrapnel that shredded the innkeeper standing five feet away from him.

A higher level character is lucky, experienced, favored by the gods, or some other such thing that allows him to avoid or mitigate a blow that would kill a lesser being. Not to just shrug it off (though Conan and Wulfgar, for example, seem to take some purely physical punishment that defies human bounds. Sir Damien Kilcannon Vryce too, the greatest meat shield of all time!)

PS- The Fifty Cent analogy was awesome. xD

[Seharvepernfan]

Do you have any evidence to back that up? The level 5 figure has been backed up over and over again, and saying "well I think you're wrong" is not really contributing anything.

It comes from that Alexandrian article about how fantasy heroes usually only need to be 5th level to do what they do, right? My point was that you can build somebody who can match real-world maximums (like the long jump example) at level 5, but that's if those people are optimized for just that.

I wasn't contributing, btw, more like opposing authoritarian viewpoints like "no one in history has ever been more than level 5" - is there "proof" of that? Of course not.

[Flickerdart]

My point was that you can build somebody who can match real-world maximums (like the long jump example) at level 5, but that's if those people are optimized for just that.
Um, yeah. Olympic athletes optimize their ability to perform their sport. That's sort of the entire point of the Olympics.

[eggynack]

Um, yeah. Olympic athletes optimize their ability to perform their sport. That's sort of the entire point of the Olympics.
Well, I'd argue that there are also some components of nationalism, tradition, and spectacle, but yeah, it'd be pretty weird if a guy in the Olympics weren't pushing all of his skill points into the skills relevant to his sport. It'd actually be pretty weird if he didn't also take skill focus, any other relevant skill boosters, and push other skill points into synergy based boosters.

[Seharvepernfan]

Um, yeah. Olympic athletes optimize their ability to perform their sport. That's sort of the entire point of the Olympics.

I think you're missing my point.

Yes, you can match real-world "maximums" (like the long-jump record) by level 5 by optimizing, but that doesn't mean you can't be higher than 5th and still only that good at that particular thing (or worse). So, like, a 9th level fighter who can jump as well as an optimized 5th level expert (or whatever). The 9th level fighter could be better if he were optimized for jumping, but he isn't. How do you know there aren't people who are higher than 5th, but not optimized?

[Clistenes]

I have always thought that hit points should have a slower progression, while AC should have a progression just like the Bonus Attack. That way most attacks would be avoided.

Most monsters, on the other hand, should be the way they are: A lot of hit points and a low AC, because they are big and tough and you have to chop them a lot to kill them.

Saves should progress more or less the way they do.

That system would be a bit more realistic and would make experienced warriors more dangerous and relevant. A mage can kill you with a single save-or-die spell, but a fighter or barbarian power-attacking could do the same with a single critical, even at high levels. You would have to use tactics to enhance your AC and avoid being hit, like bluffs, parrying, dodging, etc., when the enemy had a higher attack bonus (hoping a friend would flank it or attack it with spells), and try to use other tactics to enhance your Attack Bonus and Damage and take the enemy down quickly when facing a foe with a lower attack bonus.

I don't like that humans can reach Strength above 18 without magic. A human with Strength 18 is so strong as a Heavy Warhorse, and clearly already above human limits. I'm okay with people using magic to become stronger than that, but a guy with natural strength 20 is like some kind of huge mutant freak.

I would go with E6, that system that allows only six hit dice, but I think characters should become more powerful than that, increasing their Attack Bonus, AC, class features, caster levels, skills and feats. Hit Points is the only thing that should get nerfed.

Of course, with those changes the system wouldn't be the same, and many people would hate it.

[themourningstar]

Wait.. What about someone that is "Olympic class" in two or more unrelated things? Bobby Fisher comes to mind- Probably the greatest chess player to ever live, and then he became a world class competitor in martial arts. Did he "retrain"?

[Flickerdart]

I think you're missing my point.

Yes, you can match real-world "maximums" (like the long-jump record) by level 5 by optimizing, but that doesn't mean you can't be higher than 5th and still only that good at that particular thing (or worse). So, like, a 9th level fighter who can jump as well as an optimized 5th level expert (or whatever). The 9th level fighter could be better if he were optimized for jumping, but he isn't. How do you know there aren't people who are higher than 5th, but not optimized?
Because then he would also be indestructible, really good at fighting, etc, etc. If you cannot conclusively demonstrate even a single outlier, then saying "oh but what if" is pointless. What if there was a 30th level commoner who put no ranks in Jump and was worse at it than an Olympian, how would we ever know? Because he couldn't have gotten there at the rate that humans gain experience if the most optimized people in the world who spend their whole lives training only get to targets that level 5 people can hit.


Wait.. What about someone that is "Olympic class" in two or more unrelated things? Bobby Fisher comes to mind- Probably the greatest chess player to ever live, and then he became a world class competitor in martial arts. Did he "retrain"?
Retrained from Expert 4 to Expert 1/Warrior 3, Able Learner so that he can keep his ranks in Profession (Chess grandmaster).

[TuggyNE]

It comes from that Alexandrian article about how fantasy heroes usually only need to be 5th level to do what they do, right?

That's one of the sources, but by no means the only discussion of it.


Yes, you can match real-world "maximums" (like the long-jump record) by level 5 by optimizing, but that doesn't mean you can't be higher than 5th and still only that good at that particular thing (or worse). So, like, a 9th level fighter who can jump as well as an optimized 5th level expert (or whatever). The 9th level fighter could be better if he were optimized for jumping, but he isn't. How do you know there aren't people who are higher than 5th, but not optimized?

Russell's teapot and Occam's Razor. If there is no meaningful way in which such an unoptimized person could be distinguished (neither by skills, by HP, by saving throws, by ability scores, nor anything else), then there is no meaningful sense in which they can exist: the leveling system is an abstraction, and real-world people do not have levels, therefore the simplest and lowest-level expression of a given person's capabilities is the best one.

Or, if you like, use Karl Popper's idea of falsifiability. Comes to the same thing; a theory that says "well, there's no way to prove this isn't right" is not an especially useful theory.