Help! My Sorcerer is a IDIOT!

[hirojinbrodie]

Ok so maybe not that stupid, but a 8 int and a 10 wis does not a smart elf make. Anywho, I have taken the stalwart sorcerer variant from UA, and am struggling to discover a prestige class that work thematically with my questionable intellect. Also keep in mind my lack of skill points, though I know there are feats to help that. Currently I am at first level. Any additional information you need just ask. Took Fey Heritage for my first feat as it fits for my characters "unusually lucky" back story. Any suggestions?

[Flickerdart]

Malconvoker? He's not smart enough to figure out that dealing with fiends never ends well.

[ArcturusV]

Well, last time I had an Idiot Savant Sorcerer, I gave him a few Fighter levels and took him into Anointed Knight.

But you're not actually all that "Stupid". 8 is average intellect in game. 10 Wisdom is similarly average.

Of course, you could go into Arcane Archer. That could entirely fit being less than bright. :smallwink:

[hirojinbrodie]

Well at least her story would have a amusing if tragic end point. I wasn't looking to focus on summoning, though my character is kinda a Goku type of innocent kind of stupid, so being overly trusting of fiends would have interesting results. would be cutting it close in terms of requirements, though it is doable.

[Flickerdart]

But you're not actually all that "Stupid". 8 is average intellect in game. 10 Wisdom is similarly average.
8 is actually quite a bit below average. It's 0.83 standard deviations below average, in fact, which corresponds to an IQ of 87.5.

[hirojinbrodie]

Well, last time I had an Idiot Savant Sorcerer, I gave him a few Fighter levels and took him into Anointed Knight.

But you're not actually all that "Stupid". 8 is average intellect in game. 10 Wisdom is similarly average.

Of course, you could go into Arcane Archer. That could entirely fit being less than bright. :smallwink:

I know she isn't stupid, but elves tend to be especially smart, or at least think they are. Arcane Archer could work, though I wanted to keep my focus on my casting somewhat, only taking a diversion from it to explore a role play appropriate class. Where can I find Anointed Night?

[ArcturusV]

Anointed Knight is from Book of Exalted Deeds. It, like the Archer, kinda requires spellcasting (Need to be able to perform Alchemy, which requires you to have spellcasting to do), but doesn't actually enhance spellcasting. Instead you get a bunch of buffs based off level and charisma to yourself and your chosen weapon.

[Psyren]

Malconvoker? He's not smart enough to figure out that dealing with fiends never ends well.

If he were truly dumb though, he would be dealing with them normally (believing himself to have the upper hand) rather than attempting subterfuge. (Alienist would fit great with your mindset though, if only it sucked less.)

On topic - Wild Mage is a strong choice and could work - a sorcerer that relies totally on instinct and doesn't bother thinking too much about where his power comes from.

I suggest a "one-trick-pony" type of PrC. When you're not the brightest tool in the shed, you don't go for subtle or nuanced approaches - rather, you treat your power like a hammer, and all your problems are nails. Something like Force Missile Mage, Frost Mage, or Dragonheart Mage (the latter would particularly fit a dumber dragon like a White.)

Though personally I think this sort of concept fits Wilders better.

[ericgrau]

8 is actually quite a bit below average. It's 0.83 standard deviations below average, in fact, which corresponds to an IQ of 87.5.
Still not a total idiot, just a little slow. We can't all be perfectly average in everything, and I'm sure we all know people of varying intelligence who are yet normal enough.

[hirojinbrodie]

If he were truly dumb though, he would be dealing with them normally (believing himself to have the upper hand) rather than attempting subterfuge. (Alienist would fit great with your mindset though, if only it sucked less.)

On topic - Wild Mage is a strong choice and could work - a sorcerer that relies totally on instinct and doesn't bother thinking too much about where his power comes from.

I suggest a "one-trick-pony" type of PrC. When you're not the brightest tool in the shed, you don't go for subtle or nuanced approaches - rather, you treat your power like a hammer, and all your problems are nails. Something like Force Missile Mage, Frost Mage, or Dragonheart Mage (the latter would particularly fit a dumber dragon like a White.)

Though personally I think this sort of concept fits Wilders better.

I was looking at the wild mace and I certainly do like the PrC. The suggestion of looking at it in terms of a one trick pony should help me lower down my search. Not sure how people manage low into characters normally. The lack of skill points for qualifying for PrC's is brutal. Maybe just me.

[Slipperychicken]

8 is actually quite a bit below average. It's 0.83 standard deviations below average, in fact, which corresponds to an IQ of 87.5.

In-game, that's only a -1. A difference of 5% on Int based rolls; barely noticable. All else equal, it means he will make a knowledge check 5% less often than an Int 10 person.


Here's how we can illustrate this:

Assume a person with Int 10, and a person with Int 8 are both taking a History exam with 100 questions. A Knowledge (History) check DC 10 is required to correctly answer each one individually (they can't guess, it's short answer or they're under a Zone of Truth or something). Both, being avid students of history, possess 1 rank in Knowledge (History), and no other modifiers (this detail is included so they can succeed on trained checks).

The normal person with his +1 modifier would correctly answer each one on a roll of 9 or higher, which means we expect him to answer 60% of the questions correctly (and if he took similar tests a large number of times, this would be the average).

If the "idiot" with his +0 would be expected to correctly answer a question on a roll of 8 or higher, so he would answer 55% correctly.

Using anydice (http://anydice.com/) (output d20+1-d20), we can see that the "idiot" will actually score better than the normal person 42.75% of the time.

So you see, an Int 8 character is not nearly as stupid as is made out to be. He is slightly below average. Not the brightest bulb out there, but far from the brain-damaged ape which most dnd groups portray him as.

[ArcturusV]

Eh, I've had to pick up Open Minded a few times before to get enough skill points. It happens, it's not ideal. But usually a better option than waiting 2-3 levels for it.

[CRtwenty]

The normal person with his +1 modifier would correctly answer each one on a roll of 9 or higher, which means we expect him to answer 60% of the questions correctly (and if he took similar tests a large number of times, this would be the average).

If the "idiot" with his +0 would be expected to correctly answer a question on a roll of 8 or higher, so he would answer 55% correctly.


55% is a failing score in most US schools. Meaning Mr. 8 INT is going to either have to retake the class, or go into a job like Fry Cook (or Adventurer :p)

[Flickerdart]

In-game, that's only a -1. A difference of 5% on Int based rolls; barely noticable. All else equal, it means he will make a knowledge check 5% less often than an Int 10 person.


Here's how we can illustrate this:

Assume a person with Int 10, and a person with Int 8 are both taking a History exam with 100 questions. A Knowledge (History) check DC 10 is required to correctly answer each one individually (they can't guess, it's short answer or they're under a Zone of Truth or something). Both, being avid students of history, possess 1 rank in Knowledge (History), and no other modifiers (this detail is included so they can succeed on trained checks).

The normal person with his +1 modifier would correctly answer each one on a roll of 9 or higher, which means we expect him to answer 60% of the questions correctly (and if he took similar tests a large number of times, this would be the average).

If the "idiot" with his +0 would be expected to correctly answer a question on a roll of 8 or higher, so he would answer 55% correctly.

So you see, an Int 8 character is not nearly as stupid as is made out to be. He is slightly below average. Not the brightest bulb out there, but far from the brain-damaged ape which most dnd groups make him out to be.
That's not a very good example - DC 10 is "common knowledge", and would never be on an exam. Let's try that again.

Person A, 10 Intelligence. When they take 10 on a Knowledge check, they hit the "common knowledge" threshold every time. Ask this guy about foreign countries? He knows a bit about them. Mathematics? He can tell you some stuff about that. Everything you ask, he will not be totally lost.

An Intelligence 8 guy will fail the common knowledge check every time if he takes 10. Which means he has to roll. And since he is rolling, he has a 45% chance to answer any given common knowledge question. He needs that 1 rank in History or whatever, a rank that represents a significant amount of dedicated study, just to catch up, in one topic, to the guy above.

It's not a difference of 5%. It's a difference of 55%.

[Slipperychicken]

55% is a failing score in most US schools. Meaning Mr. 8 INT is going to either have to retake the class, or go into a job like Fry Cook (or Adventurer :p)

Where I come from, 65% is a passing grade. Joe Average would also be a fry cook :smalltongue:

The other modifiers don't matter, the point is that the difference is only 5%. If they both had 4 ranks (maximum for a commoner) instead, then the "idiot" would have a 75% and the normal an 80%, assuming a large number of tests.



Person A, 10 Intelligence. When they take 10 on a Knowledge check, they hit the "common knowledge" threshold every time. Ask this guy about foreign countries? He knows a bit about them. Mathematics? He can tell you some stuff about that. Everything you ask, he will not be totally lost.


I was assuming they couldn't Take 10 because it's a sufficiently stressful exam to warrant that.

The point I'm trying to make is that, all else equal, an Int 8 person isn't at such a disadvantage to an Int 10.

[Flickerdart]

Where I come from, 65% is a passing grade. Joe Average would also be a fry cook :smalltongue:

The other modifiers don't matter, the point is that the difference is only 5%. If they both had 4 ranks (maximum for a commoner) instead, then the "idiot" would have a 75% and the normal an 80%, assuming a large number of tests.
And the 8 Intelligence guy would still fail to answer simple questions like "can you point out Asia on the map" over half the time.




I was assuming they couldn't Take 10 because it's a sufficiently stressful exam to warrant that.

The point I'm trying to make is that, all else equal, an Int 8 person isn't at such a disadvantage.
What kind of stressful exam has only common knowledge questions?

"All else being equal" doesn't mean "devising specific circumstances in which the one guy only has a slightly smaller chance than the other guy and then ignoring every other possible scenario".

In fact, if you want to use level 1 Commoners as an example, remember that the 8 Int guy has four skill points to use. He can choose four areas of knowledge to study so that he can match an average person on the street, or become specialized in one at the exclusion of everything else. Every single aspect outside of that narrow field of expertise, half the time, he will be completely and utterly lost.

[Slipperychicken]

In fact, if you want to use level 1 Commoners as an example, remember that the 8 Int guy has four skill points to use. He can choose four areas of knowledge to study so that he can match an average person on the street, or become specialized in one at the exclusion of everything else. Every single aspect outside of that narrow field of expertise, half the time, he will be completely and utterly lost.

He only has 3 skillpoints, from 4+Int.

What you say is correct. I forgot about taking 10 while making that demonstration. That is a bit of a steep drop-off point, from 100% to 50%.

[Flickerdart]

He only has 3 skillpoints, from 4+Int
What? No. Commoners get 2 skill points per level, plus Int which is -1 for this guy, and then *4 for level 1.

[Jeff the Green]

8 is actually quite a bit below average. It's 0.83 standard deviations below average, in fact, which corresponds to an IQ of 87.5.

Looked at another way, the person with 8 intelligence is less intelligent than 70-80% of people, depending on whether he's a high 8 or a low 8. So while he's far from having a general learning disability, he's definitely stupider than most. According to most grading curves, this person would get mostly C-minuses to Ds, but would definitely graduate. (Assuming, of course, that academic achievement is strictly based on Intelligence. Not true, but potentially a useful comparison.)

[ArcturusV]

I suppose the tipping point here though is how people necessarily perceive Humanoids versus other things.

Take an 8 Int familiar, which he is likely to have now or soon. People presume the 8 Int familiar is reasonably intelligent. That it can reasonably figure things out as a human being of average intelligence (Or sometimes even better). Never really see anyone raise a stink about the the 8 Int familiar can tell its master something like "Oh, there are humans from Castle Brandenburg up the road", Effectively meaning he probably needs the equivalent of 15 ranks in Knowledge: Nobility to figure it out. But no one really blinks at that.

But if you're a humanoid with 8 Int people expect you to talk like some cartoonish caricature of George from Mice and Men at best.

Course it just might be a double standard thing. Because an 8 Int Owl is "One of the 100 smartest owls in the world" or something it gets away with things a creature with the same Int wouldn't.

[Slipperychicken]

What? No. Commoners get 2 skill points per level, plus Int which is -1 for this guy, and then *4 for level 1.

...

Note to self: Never post anything at 4am.

[Jeff the Green]

I suppose the tipping point here though is how people necessarily perceive Humanoids versus other things.

Take an 8 Int familiar, which he is likely to have now or soon. People presume the 8 Int familiar is reasonably intelligent. That it can reasonably figure things out as a human being of average intelligence (Or sometimes even better). Never really see anyone raise a stink about the the 8 Int familiar can tell its master something like "Oh, there are humans from Castle Brandenburg up the road", Effectively meaning he probably needs the equivalent of 15 ranks in Knowledge: Nobility to figure it out. But no one really blinks at that.

But if you're a humanoid with 8 Int people expect you to talk like some cartoonish caricature of George from Mice and Men at best.

Course it just might be a double standard thing. Because an 8 Int Owl is "One of the 100 smartest owls in the world" or something it gets away with things a creature with the same Int wouldn't.

Next time I play a character with a familiar, it's totally going to be making up stuff it has no way of knowing in order to sound smart.

[Crasical]

Next time I play a character with a familiar, it's totally going to be making up stuff it has no way of knowing in order to sound smart.

An Audio Log of an adventure I read a while back had a goblin rogue in the party listening at a dungeon door and slowly describing it's contents, eventually starting to list things that didn't make noise, like crates and barrels. I can't remember if he was just bluffing or if it was a room he'd seen before (He was living in the dungeon before joining the party).

[Epinephrine_Syn]

What? No. Commoners get 2 skill points per level, plus Int which is -1 for this guy, and then *4 for level 1.

If they're humans, the most common commoners, they get another +1*4 skill points.

[Fizban]

When they take 10 on a Knowledge check, they hit the "common knowledge" threshold every time. Ask this guy about foreign countries? He knows a bit about them. Mathematics? He can tell you some stuff about that. Everything you ask, he will not be totally lost.

An Intelligence 8 guy will fail the common knowledge check every time if he takes 10. Which means he has to roll. And since he is rolling, he has a 45% chance to answer any given common knowledge question. He needs that 1 rank in History or whatever, a rank that represents a significant amount of dedicated study, just to catch up, in one topic, to the guy above.

It's not a difference of 5%. It's a difference of 55%.
This is because the common knowledge DC is 10, not because of the 8 int. Common does not mean ubiquitous. If anything, I'd say it means that with a big enough group you're likely to find someone who knows it, and 2 people at 50% is barely even a group. If you want something everyone can do try a craft check for a wooden spoon at DC 5: so low that you could have int 1 and still do it by taking 10. Knowledge checks in DnD are meant for gaining ridiculous monster knowledge without ever seeing one, not telling people they are stupid. And I'm sure you've seen those late night shows asking people on the street questions that would be considered common knowledge, with them failing over and over.


What kind of stressful exam has only common knowledge questions?
Wrong question. What kind of exam has a bunch of questions people are expected to answer? All of them. Doesn't matter what the DC is, the questions are all based on the number of ranks you're supposed to have, and if you could take 10 then it wouldn't be a test because more than half the class would automatically get 100%. So if the test is set with DCs such that people with the appropriate number of ranks will get 70%, and mister 8 int has the right number of ranks, on average he will get 65%. He barely fails, and depending on the number of questions doesn't need very much luck to succeed. If he can wrangle a circumstance bonus for cramming or just gain an extra rank he can pass just fine. The real disadvantage of a low int score is the reduced skill points: not being able to learn about as many things as other people even if you can be as good as them.

This is a topic that bugs the heck out of me. Phrases like "IQ 80" or "less intelligent than 80% of people" are skewed to make people look worse than they are, ignoring the fact that much of that 80% are only a few %s better and aren't breaking the 50% line themselves. And the people past the line are only a few %s better than that. DnD doesn't even make a distinction between 8 and 9 int: unless you take int damage you both have the same penalty, so there's not even any difference. You could have an 11 vs. an 8, a difference of three points that only results in one between their rolls. Even if someone's ranked a bit lower than you they can still win a fair share when all things are equal. Its only a -1 modifier, you'd laugh if it were an attack bonus so why is it so crippling if it's intelligence? For a real world example: I've had people describe me as smart and my ex-girlfriend as "dumb as a rock," but in a battle of wits over something that I'm not particularly skilled in (say, facebook culture or a video game I've only started), she'd still leave me dazed and confused enough keep me off any high horses. In game of Magic the Gathering where my deckbuilding skill (most of my "ranks") is cancelled by both of us using cruddy decks, I could easily find myself admitting defeat. Obviously I can't be precise, but it happened enough for me to realize that the gap wasn't as much as my friends wanted me to think.

Assuming skill checks, especially knowledge checks, are always taking 10 is actually devising a specific scenario to suit the one with the higher bonus. A scenario where a slight penalty results in a slight average failure is in fact every other scenario, while the one where you control the environment so you can peacefully concentrate is the specific one. Taking 10 skews the system, even if we can do it in real life almost all the time please stop acting like living in a peaceful world makes people stupider than they are.

[hirojinbrodie]

Wow lol. That escalated quickly. Ok so from what I gather my character isn't a complete moron which I wouldn't disagree on. When building her, my desire was to create a character who despite low int (among elves I'm assuming a low int is more likely to be a observable disadvantage) was able to inexplicably rise above and do great things. Part of this would have to do with her unknown fry heritage. The rest being a representation of her instead abilities as a sorcerer.
My trouble steams from findind PrC's that I can qualify for. If DND is a skill point system (which in some ways it is) then my low int score does offer a real disadvantage. There are PrC's that I just wont be able to qualify for in a reasonable amount of time.

[Malimar]

Wow lol. That escalated quickly. Ok so from what I gather my character isn't a complete moron which I wouldn't disagree on. When building her, my desire was to create a character who despite low int (among elves I'm assuming a low int is more likely to be a observable disadvantage) was able to inexplicably rise above and do great things. Part of this would have to do with her unknown fry heritage. The rest being a representation of her instead abilities as a sorcerer.

Ohhh, so you're saying she lacks a delta brainwave.

[Deophaun]

I was assuming they couldn't Take 10 because it's a sufficiently stressful exam to warrant that.
Stress has nothing to do with whether you can take 10 or not. It doesn't matter if the cliff you're climbing is 10 feet high or 200, you can take 10 even if the fall would kill you, just like it doesn't matter if the test you're taking is for lols or to determine if you're worthy to continue living.

What does matter is if you are threatened (there is a guy with a sword standing next to you who will try to hit you if you take your attention off of him) or you're distracted (the room you're taking the test in also has an infestation of wasps). But just answering questions, no matter the stakes, will never prevent you from taking 10 on the knowledge checks to answer those questions.

[MrBanana]

8 is actually quite a bit below average. It's 0.83 standard deviations below average, in fact, which corresponds to an IQ of 87.5.

How are you centering the ND on D&D intelligence?

I think each +1 (or every 2 points) being one SD above the average makes a lot of sense, so a character with 16 INT is remarkable but not outside possibility, while 18 INT is Nobel Prize material.

[hirojinbrodie]

Ohhh, so you're saying she lacks a delta brainwave.

Fey heritage. Damn auto correct.
So what are some easy requirent PrC's that I could qualify for, though wild mage is a real contender?

[Flickerdart]

Assuming skill checks, especially knowledge checks, are always taking 10 is actually devising a specific scenario to suit the one with the higher bonus. A scenario where a slight penalty results in a slight average failure is in fact every other scenario, while the one where you control the environment so you can peacefully concentrate is the specific one. Taking 10 skews the system, even if we can do it in real life almost all the time please stop acting like living in a peaceful world makes people stupider than they are.
I'm sorry, what? You realize that you have to weight scenarios by frequency of occurrence, and not just count how many possible scenarios in total there are, right? Most people, throughout their daily lives, are faced with things from various fields that can be solved with common knowledge. The fact that they do not screw up half the time means they are taking 10. It doesn't "skew the system". It's built into the system.


How are you centering the ND on D&D intelligence?

I think each +1 (or every 2 points) being one SD above the average makes a lot of sense, so a character with 16 INT is remarkable but not outside possibility, while 18 INT is Nobel Prize material.
The average result on 3d6 is 10.5, which is why the "standard array" all monsters use by default is 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11. Using http://anydice.com/ lets us determine that the SD is 2.96.

[ddude987]

Ohhh, so you're saying she lacks a delta brainwave.

THIS!

Other than that what I have to say has been said. You're character isn't very far below average. She has enough Wis and Int to know common things and make generally wise decisions. Not much worse than the rest of the population. Also since she is a sorcerer her force of personality could always attract an entourage to make her knowledge checks for her :smallwink:

[Fizban]

Most people, throughout their daily lives, are faced with things from various fields that can be solved with common knowledge. The fact that they do not screw up half the time means they are taking 10. It doesn't "skew the system". It's built into the system

No, the reason they don't screw up all the time is because DCs don't always start at 10. That's only for knowledge checks, on things you haven't had any training in and don't already know. You don't have to make a skill check for something you already know, and I think you also vastly overestimate how many so called problems in daily life are solved with this "common knowledge." Most of those would in fact be untrained checks for other skills if you're actually solving a problem. Taking 10 was added to the game in order to reduce die rolling as a convenience, so yes, it does skew the system. For any other skill with DCs that are allowed to go below 10 (such as Ride or Craft) there's no problem which only makes it more obvious.

[Yael]

I suggest you dumping your Sorcerer levels and start taking farmer levels, go and buy a farm and have a lot of livestock.

I never run a character without 14 or less Int because it would be difficult (for me) to run it, it's not like I'm on 14 of Int (me, the real me), but I like to think about every step because I have time to do so, not my characters.

And the farmer levels would help :P

[Fizban]

Was thinking about this some more and oh man do those skill points really hurt, especially without the human bonus. Assuming you want concentration, the only skill required to cast spells more effectively, you've got no other skills. That's the part I'd play up: while the rest of the party, including any brutes with ToB classes, could easily have 4-5 skills maxxed, all you can do is concentrate. You don't bring anything to the table aside from sorcerer spellcasting, so focus only on the spellcasting. Grab as many extra spells as you can with Bloodline feats (Dragon Magazine, lists aren't that good but they're something), and the Pathfinder version of Extra Spell if you can swing it. Ancestral Relic (masterwork staff->custom runestaff) is also great. The feats Extraordinary Concentration and Mobile Spellcasting in Complete Adventurer require only concentration and give you some options you could try to leverage. If you absoultely must have more skill points, the exalted Nymph's Kiss feat gives you 1 per level after you take it so it might be better than Open Minded.

Also, which variant were you using exactly? Stalwart is from Complete Mage and gives hit points, while Battle Sorcerer is from Unearthed Arcana and also includes the BAB and light armor. Sadly I can't think of any good 1 skill sorcerer PrCs. I'd really recommend just going without and saving your feats: burning a bunch of feats to get into a PrC that doesn't give any back isn't really going to help. One of the ways to offset/conserve higher level spells known is relying on metamagic'd spells for your damage (which are better anyway), which means you'll want Empower Spell on top of anything else.

[hirojinbrodie]

I'm using the stalwart sorcerer varient. I have already done a battle sorcery before. I was planning on taking the Fey heritage line of feats which I have already started doing. It will land me some extra spell like abilities and some other goodies. There is a PrC called ruathar from RoW. I can qualify for it easily and will offer some minor bonuses. Still wish I had more options open to me. There is also dragon desciple which would help alleviate my bad stats but would cost me major spellcasting. My stats are str 8, Dec 18, con 14 (effectively 18 for HP), int 8, Wis 11, and cha 16.

[HalfQuart]

I've built a Stalwart Sorcerer with a 6 Int for a group I play with... not sure if he'll see play, but if he does he'll probably be introduced at around level 6-8. He's currently aimed at Abjurant Champion (CM 50) which he won't qualify for until after 10th level due to the BAB requirement. Stalwart Sorcerer gives him the martial weapon proficiency, so he just had to take Combat Casting, which is pretty bad but not totally useless. (Ruathar might not be an option due to some campaign-world constraints.)

He's got a 12 Wis, so I plan to play him book-dumb but ends up making the "right" decisions just because it seems like the right thing to do even though he doesn't know why.

Besides Ruathar, I really couldn't find any other PrC that worked with so few skill points without dipping in another class and losing a caster level, which I'm not too keen on doing.