What's a good/fun melee class for high levels?

[Nettlekid]

In the fall I'm taking part in a low-Epic (level 21) campaign with two of my closest friends, with another close friend as DM. It's shaping out to be very exciting, based on dragonhunting and the Great Game of Xorvintaal (from MMV). Since the party is three people, we're all going to have to pull our weight (or have our weight collectively pulled by one member) to survive in this low Epic world. The world doesn't have Epic spells or anything too crazy, for the sake of the DM, so it's not quite as huge a threat. But still, there's going to be a lot to take care of.

I'm planning to be a Sublime Chord, and I'm cheesing the heck out Unfettered Heroism, Wand Surge, and a stack of staves with powerful spells and only one charge left. As far as casting and spellcaster support goes, I think I'll be able to cover it, which means the rest of the party can be more relaxed about filling roles, which is good because neither likes casters. One other member has taken an interest in Binder, so he's likely to do that. (On a side note, how do you make the Binder capable of Epic play? It seems to be little tricks and things, but not so much geared toward ever being able to decimate something.) The last party member likes brutish melee types who hit things hard. It's this character archetype that I'd like advice on. She's already played a Frenzied Berserker, so although she enjoyed it, she's not likely to do it again. I know Dervish is a good melee fighter, but it's more of a "lightly slice your opponent to ribbons" as opposed to "make a crater with your sword" type class. What do you think she'd enjoy?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Binder I can't speak for since I have no experience with it.

But for your other friend Warblade would be my suggestion. Same HD value, you treat it's class level as 2 lower for fighter feat requirements so you can stack on the focus and specialization if you want.

Full BAB which is vital for melee and as you level up you learn new maneuvers which are like powers, and you learn stances where you pick one to be in and it gives you a boost. A Warblades capstone level 20 power is being in two stances at once, so she can start off with two really kick ass stances.

Manuevers she could get some that just flat out boost damage, or if she wants to go Constitution heavy can invest in the maneuvers that allow you roll your concentration check instead of a saving throw so all your saving throws are now effectively your concentration skill which is much better. Plus there are maneuver attacks that do damage equal to your concentration or your concentration x 2, and since that's a skill off Constitution it means her Constitution will be going directly into her damage out-put.

[Gwendol]

Crusaders hit things hard, very hard in fact.

[Nettlekid]

Mm, Tome of Battle is always an excellent go-to for melee, but I'm not sure if it would be her style. A bit surprisingly, she actually enjoys the "I charge it again" style of combat, and I don't know if she'd be into picking out/keeping track of maneuvers. I could see maybe Warblade, since you've got them all, tick them off as you use some, and then get them all back at once. Crusader would be annoying for her I think, with the random distribution every turn.

I also don't think she'd like Crusader because it's too defense-oriented. Tank damage and heal, while slicing back when you get the chance. She wouldn't like that, I don't think, and it's a great way to get killed in a high offense Dragon campaign. As far as actual abilities go, straight Warblade is pretty good, if not lacking in particularly "cool" class features. Apart from the useful Dual Stance, it doesn't really get anything snazzy. Snazzy features are why I love Prestige Classes, like Eternal Blade's Island in Time or the Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw (WHY DOESN'T IT PROGRESS IL? WHYYYY). Unfortunately, the ToB PrCs aren't all that spectacularly cool compared to some others. Like they're okay, but not great. But yeah, maybe Warblade would do. Any other suggestions, though?

[Gwendol]

Warhulk, hulking hurler, dungeoncrasher fighter, etc. There is other things to do in melee.
I'd say that if you think crusaders can't deal damage though, that's not my experience.

[Feint's End]

A good Binding build can definitely keep up with you other guys without a problem especially if online vestiges are in (Generally considered to put binder up to t2 for unlimited summoning).

As for the melee Warblade is definitely the best start if you want to go ToB since it got the least maneuvers to keep track of, the easiest restoration and the most straight forward schools (except for Diamond Mind maybe). She probably would enjoy a TWF build going for the Tiger Claw PRC.
On the other hand what about Runescarred Berserker? A close to broken Barbarian PRC bringing the Barbarian to high t3.

[Psyren]

Totemist and Psywar are a lot of fun at high levels as well. Basically any T3 and up primarily martial class.

[Nettlekid]

Suggestions noted. I do believe she prefers the "strike hard" approach to the "strike many times" approach, which is why I didn't want Dervish, and I think things like Totemist won't go over too well.

Any interesting, unique PrC suggestions?

[thethird]

If she is into charging it again I feel that Ranger 2 / Warblade 3 / Revenant Blade 5 / Eternal Blade 10 is really fun, rewarding and easy to play. It has some good adaptability too.

[Nettlekid]

Ah, now that's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. It's cool, decent with melee and improves melee capability, and somehow the fluff for the Revenant Blade (especially meditating with ancestors to get the feats) synergizes with Eternal Blade. "The Eternal Revenant Blade." Pretty cool.

Any other PrC suggestions in that same vein?

[Khatoblepas]

One other member has taken an interest in Binder, so he's likely to do that. (On a side note, how do you make the Binder capable of Epic play? It seems to be little tricks and things, but not so much geared toward ever being able to decimate something.)

There was an Epic Binder article that WoTC had on their website once. It's long gone, but I think the full text is in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9589080). Along with the Summoning vestige, they should be fine. Though the epic vestiges do seem a little underwhelming.

For the "I want to hit hard" player, Warhulk is actually the best prestige class for epic play. Since you don't get BAB as an epic character, and the Warhulk gets +2 Strength every level and the ability to attack multiple characters in one fell swing. By RAW, you lose all your mental skill ranks, so make sure to get a permanent item of Trait Removal, maybe in a magical headband, so you can still contribute to non-combat. It would only be 100,000gp, a good investment. This means they can continue being a character even while they're kicking three asses each way to Sunday on each attack. That's only if they want to play a huge buff character, though.

[thethird]

Dervish and Champion of Corellon also mesh well with that build. Specially if you houserule slightly the Champion of Corellon abilities to work with a double scimitar.

[Andezzar]

At high levels? DMM Persist Cleric.:smalltongue:
SCNR

[Nettlekid]

I've seen those Epic Vestiges, and they're okay, but not great. It's moot though, because none of those feats can be taken by level 21.

Since this game is starting at level 21 and is not likely to level up too often, War Hulk's lack of BAB is still an issue. Also, the brutishness of it *might* appeal, but it might not. Being a formidable warrior is different than being an idiot with a club.

Champion of Corellon Larethian is okay, but it's mostly just little +pluses here and there, isn't it? Nothing too staggering. And like I said, Dervish, while really good, is too lightweight for the type of fighter this girl likes. She's into like, wielders of a giant sword. BFS type. She was a Vampire Duskblade in a campaign I DMed for a while, and she liked the "delicate-looking girl with a big weapon" thing. Very Seras Victoria, if anyone here has seen Hellsing.

And yeah, yeah, Clerics and Wizards do it better. She just finds spellcasting really boring (unless it's melee-based, like Duskblade. And I think even the Ordained Champion's channeled spell would be annoying in that she'd have to still prepare spell lists and all that.) I was thinking of suggesting some sort of Paladin 2/something 3/Ur-Priest 1/Bone Knight 10/something 5, to net 9th level spells and DMM stuff, as well as being quite open to melee improvement. I would think that stuff like Divine Power would appeal to her. But it's too complicated, and she just doesn't like spells. Most builds of hers so far have been just a straight class. Duskblade 13, Dragon Shaman 15, Barbarian 6/Frienzied Berserker 4, etc. She's not big on all sorts of dips and multiclassing, though PrCs are fine. And I'm sure she's not AGAINST dips, just they seem more annoying than they're worth. She's not the type to obsess over a build like some of us on the Playground.

[thethird]

Divine based I always found (Cleric 4 / Ordained Champion 1 / Prestige paladin 1 / Ordained champion +4) a good chasis, from there both bone knight and knight of the raven are good PrCs. If going bone knight I would top it off with horned harbringer.

On more melee for the eternal revenant thing, switching the ranger levels to barbarian and/or taking levels in frenzied berserker might be a good thing.

She can also go exotic weapon master since the double scimitar is an exotic weapon. Flurry of strikes is nice.

On a complete different direction, what about a punchbarian?

Barbarian 4 / Fist of the forest 3 / Frostrager 4 / Thayan Gladiator 10?

---

Also on making binder capable at epic level... A Binder 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Knight of the sacred seal 5 / Anima mage 8 With tenebrous as the patron vestige, and some persistomancy would be my go to town build. Persistomancy just means that he can improve the chasis with some buffs, and if he gets regeneration from the epic vestiges getting immunity to both fire and acid is easy and fun.

[inuyasha]

the most awesome thing you can do: Barb 10/Frenzied Berzerker 10. My uncle 2 hit big T with that combo once

[Nettlekid]

Steer away from the divine caster stuff; I was saying that that's what I'd WANT to suggest, but it's just not her style.

I wonder if there could be some build using Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (because boy will you need feats)/Revenant Blade 5/Frenzied Berserker 10? And one more level, since we're at 21. With the Valenar Double Scimitar counting as a two-handed weapon you can TWF with, with BAB 16 or higher you'll get like 9 attacks at least, all with about +300 to damage from Power Attack alone. That's pretty good. I'll keep it in mind to suggest. I've made a similar hypothetical build using a Thri-Kreen dual-wielding spiked chains, and that was....very effective.

[Psyren]

If she doesn't want to prepare spells, Ur-Priest will be just as annoying as Cleric.

If it's "one big attack" she wants, your choices are probably a charger build (and even they strive for pounce to get more than one hit), or porting in something like Vital Strike from PF. But generally, more attacks is the better way to go for melee, because boosting the chance to hit for multiple attacks is easier than boosting the damage of just one.


the most awesome thing you can do: Barb 10/Frenzied Berzerker 10. My uncle 2 hit big T with that combo once

Followed by 2-hitting the party :smalltongue:

[thethird]

Revenant (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872270/The_Revenant_Blade_Handbook) to your interests (lame pun is lamentable)

Okay.... then on making binder an effective thing on epic without getting casting at all. How about tricking the anima mage to work with warlock or dragonfire adept? That might be fun.

[Nettlekid]

Right, I wasn't actually suggesting Ur-Priest. It's what I think would make a good build, but not one that I think she's actually like. Bone Knight is still decent for melee, just because of the immunities. Pretty cool. Maybe a Favored Soul=>Bone Knight, because she didn't seem to mind the Duskblade Spontaneous list.

This Binder player has been a Warlock before, and quite liked it, so Binder/Warlock/Anima Mage (with a sprinkle of Hellfire Warlock) might be pretty good. I dunno if he'd want to go evil, though. He's usually neutral.

[thethird]

I didn't actually suggest Ur-Priest for her, I suggested basic cleric, with prestige paladin, ordained champion and either knight of the raven or bone knight. Persist most of the stuff that she needs, and use the auto quicken feat for paladin spells whenever necessary.

And Spontaneous cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) is an option.

[Psyren]

Right, I wasn't actually suggesting Ur-Priest. It's what I think would make a good build, but not one that I think she's actually like. Bone Knight is still decent for melee, just because of the immunities. Pretty cool. Maybe a Favored Soul=>Bone Knight, because she didn't seem to mind the Duskblade Spontaneous list.

This Binder player has been a Warlock before, and quite liked it, so Binder/Warlock/Anima Mage (with a sprinkle of Hellfire Warlock) might be pretty good. I dunno if he'd want to go evil, though. He's usually neutral.

That build can go CN just fine. Note though that you need to tweak Anima Mage to let his Warlock in, because Warlocks don't cast spells.

[Nettlekid]

The "me not suggesting Ur-Priest" comment was for Psyren.

Anyway, let's get off of everything with Cleric and Ur-Priest and all that, because I really don't think she'd be up for that.

Oh wow, I didn't realize that neither Hellfire Warlock or Anima Mage required Evil. I thought they both did. Heck, a Hellfire Warlock can be Chaotic Good? That's rather weird, harnessing the power of the plane diametrically opposed to your alignment. But yeah, I think he might like that. I'm glad you can still get Invocations, too. I think as for the spells, he might enjoy Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice at first level, not so much for the spell as for Abrupt Jaunt. He loved Warlock for Flee The Scene, and Abrupt Jaunt is just the kind of thing he likes.

EDIT: Wizard 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Anima Mage 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5, taking three Bloodline levels (assuming that Bloodline levels progress Warlock Eldritch Blast in a similar way as they progress Hellfire Blast, and taking Precocious Apprentice and Improved Binding to fill in prereqs. Count as Binder 18 (20 for actual binding, though you could probably DCFS out Improved Binding when you don't need it anymore), and Warlock 14. That's pretty neat.

[Andezzar]

the most awesome thing you can do: Barb 10/Frenzied Berzerker 10. My uncle 2 hit big T with that combo onceDealing with the Tarrasque at level 20 is no particular achievement. You can deal with it at level 7 (wizard or cleric with summon undead IV and some form of aerial movement), maybe earlier.

BTW did the Frenzied Berserker proceed to kill the rest of the party afterwards?


Since this game is starting at level 21 and is not likely to level up too often, War Hulk's lack of BAB is still an issue.Only if you take the levels pre epic. Otherwise even the Warhulk gets +1/2 levels.

[Nettlekid]

Only if you take the levels pre epic. Otherwise even the Warhulk gets +1/2 levels.

But since the game is level 21, she'd get one level of War Hulk to start with. And we're not going to level up much, we're told, maybe like twice at max. Not worth it.

[Randomguy]

How is she for playing a Paladin? I was thinking some Bard/Paladin combination going into War Chanter would be interesting, especially with Dragonfire Inspiration.

For Example:

Bard 1/ Paladin of Freedom 10/ War chanter 10, with both Initiate of Milil and Devoted Performer would get you Bardic Music as though you were a Bard 11/War Chanter 10. As a paladin you get an excuse to use Words of Creation, and with that, dragonfire inspiration and Inspire legion you could turn even summons into killing machines.

Also, Inspire legion lets characters use either the highest BAB amongst them or the War Chanter's Character Level as their base attack bonus, which is great for epic levels.

[Nettlekid]

I think she could get into Paladin, especially either Paladin of Freedom or Paladin of Tyranny. Like a Paladin/Hellreaver thing? Hellreaver's pretty cool.

I'm already a bardy character (Bard 7 and then Sublime Chord and Virtuoso), so I doubt anyone wants the overlap. I don't have Inspire Courage optimized, but I don't see her wanting to buff other people. If anything, she'd want a Bard to buff her.

[Averis Vol]

Well, I've got a decent melee build that I've been working on recently, maybe it completely fulfilled will work for her.

The build is Human Psy warrior 1/Paladin 2/Psy warrior +1/Warblade 1*/Shiba protector 1**/War mind 5/Templar 1***/Elocator 8
/something else 1 (since you guys are Epic)



*was originally crusader, but you've mentioned that wasn't a good choice
**this is a 3.0 PrC From Oriental Adventures. It hasn't been updated so its still legit I think.
***Also 3.0 from defenders of the faith.

This build gives you good saves nearly all around with divine grace, can be made nearly wis/con sad with Serenity, can strike two targets at once, gets wisdom to attack twice and damage along with any strength you might have. It also gives you good mobility thanks to elocator and you can manifest as a 10th level warmind and a 6th level Psy war (doesn't really matter, all the powers are the same for both of them) Other then that you can take the normal charging feats and such and still get 4 attacks on them due to psionic lions pounce.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum 19/ Monk 1/ Mindbender 1/ Exemplar 1/ Swordsage 2 and continue with Swordsage until you get 9th level maneuvers. Possibly drop factotum to 16 to fit the rest of that in at the start and pick up the last 3 levels of Factotum later or drop Factotum to 8 and go Factotum 8/ Mindbender 1/Exemplar 1/ Monk 1/ Swordsage 10. Continue Swordsage for one more level and then go back to Factotum.

Pick up Deflect Arrows, Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and once you hit 15th level Factotum get a Permanent Emanation: Selective Antimagic Field.

Factotum 16+ Kung Fu Genius Monk 1 (it's chaos shuffle feat positive actually) gets you Int to AC twice and you can still wear Bracers of Armor to pile on the necessary enhancements before getting a daily casting of Mailed Might of the Magelords or the like.

Now max Font of Inspiration, or as close to it as you can get after other necessary feats.

That's about the best epic "melee" build that you are going to get without going real caster heavy. And it can actually do things besides beat a persons face in.

Do it on a Necropolitian Gray Elf, wield a dagger, and use Shadowblade for far better results. For one, you will have more HP than most barbarians can dream up (all d12 HD and you get Int, which is your primary stat, to HP instead of Con).

Possibly throw in some ToB PrC's that give full IL on in place of some of the Swordsage levels.

For ACF's you want Decisive Strike. Use that to double your damage and then go to town with Cunning Surge.

Do throw in 3 levels of Swashbuckler for Insightful Strike for more Int to damage.

You might want to look at replacing Swordsage with Warblade but I wouldn't do it. The SS maneuvers are better and more useful. Besides, you want Balance on the Sky for your stance and that requires a number of shadow hand maneuvers.

And double besides, Factotum 19 can use Cunning Brilliance to pick up the Fighter bonus feat list and then take 11 iterations of Martial Study or Marital Stance to pick and choose maneuvers that you want for that encounter. Note that you can also do this with the Feat Rogue so that it can be done twice per day.

[Nettlekid]

Tippy, I did frequently mention a preference for simplicity and mild distaste for multiclassing, and the build you listed is designed to take advantage of many attacks through extra standard actions, which I said wasn't the aim of the build I was looking for. That's just so not what I'm looking for.

[Waker]

Well, if you just want a simple smash your face build, you could probably do something like
Warforged Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Psychic Warrior 10
Just run into things and knock it over. You've got good BAB, your immune to a whole bunch of stuff and you have access to a number of buffing powers like Expansion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook allows you to make one swing that hits pretty much everyone, especially if you have some reach.

Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1), he could have gained the template gradually (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) and bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) the level adjustment at his 3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12th character levels, for a total cost of 30,000 xp. Get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and the 10% XP bonus gives him an extra 21,000 xp if you start with the minimum for ECL 21, so he's only down by 9,000 xp total. Half-Goristro would give +5 natural armor, +8 Str, +8 Con, a size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), two slam attacks which each count as a two-handed attack, replace some of the default spell-like abilities with Levitate, Spider Climb, See Invisibility, and Fear, and DR/Cold Iron or Good, in addition to all the default Half-Fiend traits. Add on Half-Minotaur (Dragon 313) starting out and he'll be Huge size, but the level adjustment buyoff would cost an extra 15,000 xp.

Go Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2/ Fighter 9/ War Hulk 10+. For Fighter use Dungeoncrasher in Dungeonscape, Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), and Applied Force (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). Barbarian should use Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and the Lion spirit totem (CC) for Pounce instead of Fast Movement. Get Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back (RoS), Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, Aberration Blood: Tail (LoM), Inhuman Reach (LoM), Imperious Command (DotU), Menacing Demeanor (via the Otyugh Hole, CS), the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS), etc.

His reach will be 30 feet: Large gets 10 ft., Inhuman Reach is +5 ft., and a reach weapon doubles his natural reach. War Hulk 10 makes it so every time he attacks he hits every opponent within reach. He can attack, hit every opponent, Knock-Back to Dungeoncrash them against the wall, and Knock-Down to get a free trip check against each one. Every opponent that gets knocked prone grants him an extra attack via Improved Trip, which hits every opponent in reach, which also triggers Knock-Back and Dungeoncrasher, and gets another trip check against anyone who didn't get knocked down yet. Anyone who gets back up triggers an AoO, which hits every opponent in reach and triggers Knock-Back and Dungeoncrasher and can Knock-Down anyone who isn't already prone, which triggers additional attacks if anyone does get knocked down. He can basically sweep everyone into a corner and pound them into a big mushy puddle against the wall.

His Item Familiar should be a large Spiked Chain that started out as a +1 weapon, which he paid full price for. Any further upgrades would have been done by himself via Item Familiar for half the gp cost and 1/25 the base price in xp. Include Wrathful Healing from Enemies and Allies, it costs +3 and makes the weapon heal him for half the total damage it deals. It should also have Everbright (2,000 gp), Sweeping (MIC, +1), Speed (+3) if he won't often/always have Haste, and a higher Enhancement bonus if someone's not using a caster level 20 Magic Weapon on it. An Item Familiar is automatically an intelligent item, he can add more intelligent item specific properties to it via levels, or there's nothing stopping him from enchanting them onto it himself. The spells it gets it can activate itself with its own actions. A 2nd level spell 3/day is 6,500 gp, so throw Silence on there and it can use the area version to shut down enemy casters. A 2nd level spell at will is 44,000 gp, so give it Mirror Image to cast on you. A 4th level spell 3/day is 30,000 gp, so include Dimensional Anchor and Ray Deflection, which he'll be extremely happy to have when the time comes to use either of them. Remember that as an intelligent item, an item familiar is regarded as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas.

For his other gear, this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) should be the first place he goes, followed by this list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0) and maybe even one of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101).

[Nettlekid]

Those last two are good suggestions, and a Dungeoncrasher build could be pretty cool, except that our main enemies in this campaign are Dragons. Very big, with high BAB. It'll be hard to Bull Rush them. :/

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Those last two are good suggestions, and a Dungeoncrasher build could be pretty cool, except that our main enemies in this campaign are Dragons. Very big, with high BAB. It'll be hard to Bull Rush them. :/

You don't use BAB for Bull Rush. He's Large size (+4), or Huge if you include Half-Minotaur (+8), and assuming starting Str 18, +5 for levels, +1 Inherent, +6 Enhancement, +4 Orc, +8 Half-Goristro, +8 size increase, +20 War Hulk, that's Str 70, or 82 with Half-Minotaur. That's a +30 ability modifier, for a total +38 with size and Improved Bull Rush, which goes to +48 if you use Half-Minotaur.

A CR 23 Ancient Red Dragon is Gargantuan (+12) with Str 39 (+14), for a total modifier of +26. Without even using Half-Minotaur, his bonus to bull rush is +12 higher than the opponent's bonus to defend against it. He should definitely have some sort of flight by that level, so he can charge from below and bull rush it into the ceiling of a cavern, or fly above opponents and bull rush them into the ground. With a net he can easily beat a dragon's Str check to limit their movement. Poor/clumsy maneuverability requires the creature to move a minimum distance per round based on its normal fly speed to stay aloft, a net slows it to half speed but does not reduce the minimum distance per round to maintain flight, and further limiting its movement with the net (also consider their poor turn radius) will cause it to basically fall out of the sky. Once he's accomplished that he can charge it from above and bull rush it against the ground, along with Knock-Down, and if it gets back up he just beats it against the ground again.

[Randomguy]

If you're fighting specifically Evil dragons then you could try a Paladin/Platinum Knight. They get immunity to frightful presence and Cha to saves (again) against dragon. You could probably fit Revenant blade in this build too, if you were so inclined.
Something like Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 5/Platinum Knight 10/Revenant blade 5. Alternatively, take a level of fighter rather than a level of barbarian, for the feat.

Another option is to take a level of sorcerer rather than barbarian, and finish off the build with Abjurant Champion 5, with your Platinum Knight levels also progressing sorcerer casting. It wouldn't be an optimised gish build, but you could still pick up stuff like Arcane Strike, Wings of Cover, polymorph or draconic polymorph, wraithstrike, Ruin Delver's fortune, Antidragon aura, and some other fun Gish stuff.

You could also try an ubercharger of some sort. One build I read on these forums was Paladin of Freedom 6/ Beastmaster 2/ Wild Plains Outrider 3/ Halfling Outrider 10, with the Planar Paladin variant for celestial mount and Devoted Tracker.


A simplified version of Tippy's build could be Factotum 19/Monk 2, still with decisive strike, going into swordsage post epic. Wield a quarterstaff as if it were a 2h weapon and use cunning surge and cunning insight as much as you can, with feats to boost 2h weapon fighting like power attack. If your DM lets you use your spell like abilities as if they were spells for the purpose of runestaffs, then make your weapon of choice a runestaff of power, for the "sacrifice a spellslot, do double damage" ability.
This build lets you be a factotum, but the fighting style is still more "hit really hard" than "hit really often" because of the double damage from decisive strike. It doesn't matter as much that you don't have full BAB, since your "iterative attacks" come from standard actions from cunning brilliance.

[Rubik]

Here's an easy one. Warforged psychic warrior 10/illithid slayer 10 followed by levels in (ironically) illithid savant. Use the third level of illithid savant to grab the metamind's Font of Power, and use the Temporal Reiteration power from CPsi to get permanent infinite power points.

Just take simple buff powers and Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphosis (or the mantled warrior ACF with the Natural World Mantle) and you'll be good to go.

[dspeyer]

Another fun way to go is shapeshifting.

Druid 11 / Master of Many Forms 10 can turn into a gargantuan dragon and then cast Bite of the Werebear on himself (natural weapon damages for gargantuan BotWB may require houseruling -- awesome houseruling). It's not exactly full casting, but there's some decent healing and utility in the first half of the druid list, and more with scrolls.

For a less magical variant, WS Ranger 5 / MomF 10 / Warshaper 5. Or replace warshaper with warblade. Having a real divine caster in the party is probably a good thing.

For a more magical variant, Druid 17 / MomF 4 can turn into a huge giant and cast fully. Maybe take a few feats for more shape options. And when you need serious shifting power, cast Shapechange.

The fun thing about shapeshifting is that it's also useful out of combat. Spying on people in a city? Pigeon away.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, I did frequently mention a preference for simplicity and mild distaste for multiclassing, and the build you listed is designed to take advantage of many attacks through extra standard actions, which I said wasn't the aim of the build I was looking for. That's just so not what I'm looking for.

Necropolitian Gray Elf Rogue 1/ Factotum 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 10/ Swordsage 1.

Max Int and Dex, put Strength third. Faerie Mysteries Initiate for HP. Craven and Shadowblade for extra damage. Martial Study for Balance on the Sky. Thirteen iterations of Font of Inspiration. Kung Fu Genius for extra AC. Get Infinite and Exceptional Deflection with Martial Monk.

Your BAB is +17/+12/+7/+2 at ECL 20.

Damage without sneak attack and with Cunning Insight with a 36/30/20 final stat array (conservative) is +36. Good but not great.

The real power of the build is when you catch your opponent flat-footed or otherwise able to be sneak attacked (such as with the Ghost Blade strike). Then you spend oh, say, 89 IP on Cunning Strike (and one on Cunning Insight) for an attack that deals +90d6+21+36.

It's a melee monster that kills with one perfectly positioned devastating hit. And it can't be engaged at range.

It's a decent low epic melee build. It has most of the bases covered and tends to be a lot easier to use than an uber charger or the like. Also more versatile.

Hopefully that is more inline with what you wanted.

[Andezzar]

Necropolitian Gray Elf Rogue 1/ Factotum 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 10/ Swordsage 1.

Max Int and Dex, put Strength third. Faerie Mysteries Initiate for HP. Craven and Shadowblade for extra damage. Martial Study for Balance on the Sky. Thirteen iterations of Font of Inspiration. Kung Fu Genius for extra AC. Get Infinite and Exceptional Deflection with Martial Monk.Where is the Martial Monk from? You use Martial Study to get the Balance on the Sky Stance because Stances are maneuvers as well, the feat has, contrary to Martial Stance, no prerequisites and gives another bonus, right?

How would you order the class levels, if you wanted to start playing that build at level 10?

[Emperor Tippy]

Where is the Martial Monk from?
Dragon #310.

You use Martial Study to get the Balance on the Sky Stance because Stances are maneuvers as well, the feat has, contrary to Martial Stance, no prerequisites and gives another bonus, right?
I meant Martial Stance actually and just mistyped, but yes by RAW you can use Martial Study to learn a stance. But I forgot that with that build your IL is to low for Martial Study BotS, instead shuffle the feat away once you get the gold and buy Master Shadow Hands so that you get Balance on the Sky from that.


How would you order the class levels, if you wanted to start playing that build at level 10?
Rogue 1/ Factotum 1/ Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 3 (for 4 total) Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 10/ Swordsage 2.

Rogue 1 is for the extra skill points. Factotum 1 is for Cunning Insight to help you out in the real early game with attack or damage (its a big boost then). Martial Monk means that by ECL 4 you are utterly immune to ranged attacks of all kinds (including spells). Finish out your Factotum for another 3 levels which gets you Brains Over Brawn at ECL 6 which should kick you up to always going first and let you keep up with the rest of the party thanks to first round sneak attacks (Craven is also coming on line around here as being notable extra damage) and Cunning Strike at ECL 7 lets you nova quite well against a single enemy in an encounter.

Then Swashbuckler 3 to pull up your damage so that you keep competing. Also probably grab Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, and Assassins Stance around now (use Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos for the feats). This should amp up your damage so that you keep comparable to the rest of the party in the mid game (as you now get Int to every attack). Then Fighter 10 to start upping your BAB and getting iterative attacks along with all of those feats to Shuffle into Font of Inspiration so that you can bring that fully online and turn Factotum from a nifty boost to your primary damage dealer. Then finish off with Swordsage for your IL of 11 (and thus get 6th level Maneuvers).

Far better though is Rogue 1/ Factotum 1/ Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Factotum 4/ Unarmed Swordsage 8 and then continue with Exemplar 1/Mindbender 1/ Cosmic Descryer 7/ Factotum 11.

Use Martial Monk for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and Infinite Deflection. Then spend feats for Deflect Arrows and Exceptional Deflection. Add in Snap Kick and then you are looking at 3 attacks at -2 AB on every standard action (and double attacks on a full attack).

Do Cunning Surge to move within range for a full attack (Tumble to not Provoke AoO), Decisive Strike for double damage for all attacks that round you make against that target, and then lots of Cunning Surge. 30 attacks in your routine each at -2+Int AB and each dealing 2(Int+Int+Dex+Str+HD+IL) extra damage. Possibly replace Infinite Deflection with Devastating Critical so that every crit you make forces a Fort save or die (DC equal to 10+.5HD+Str Mod).