It's time for me to throw my players into the gauntlet.

[NOhara24]

Alright, my players have made it through a (slightly nerfed) Tomb of Horrors. Since the ToH is very much a thinking man's module, i know that they are hungry for battle. We're also taking a couple weeks off because of my own and our Barbarian's vacationing, and our Sorceress' LARP habit.

Thus, I have a TON of time to plan several intricate battles that my players will ultimately just steamroll by way of lucky rolls. :smalleek:

I'm thinking of doing the following:

"A large stone tower gradually begins to come into view as the trees surrounding it start to thin and sunlight begins to poke through the canopy once again. Clearly forgotten to time itself, vines and roots wrap around and interweave through it, cracking the once formidable and sturdy stone."

"NPC accompanying the party points at his map and indicates that this is the spot, although you see that he's not pointing at any distiguishing features on the map."

Once players step inside, they are confronted with a large, cylindrical room and a lever. If they push it forward, they ascend. If they pull it backward, they descend. As they make their way upward, I plan to confront them with a battle in which the CR is indicative of the floor they're on.

Level 1 - CR 1
Level 2 - CR 2

And so forth. My difficulty that comes from planning this encounter is making the low-level encounters not necessarily difficult, but at least something that the players will look back on and say "Well that was unexpected."

I'm looking to exploit the CR system. I know it's a joke, and I plan to make this adventure the punchline.

I know about dat crab, and I fully intend on throwing one at my party when they hit the third floor. My party consists of all level eleven:

Wizard/Sorc/Ultimate Magus (Metamagic Shenanigans)
Sorceress (Utilitarian/goofy spells)
Ranger (More of a liability at this point than a threat)
Barbarian (Deals almost as much damage as the wizard, but with less fireballs involved.)

What I am asking of the playground since I'm AFB at the moment, is to help me find battles that either over/underestimate the CR of the monsters in such a horrible fashion that the players will have no bearing if the next floor will be significantly tougher, or easier than the last. So far I've got the following planned, out of 11 floors:

Basement - Perturbation trap that fires every round (CR 6) and 10 (1/2 CR) vipers.
Level 0 - Entry
Level 1- Level 2 commoner w/ minion animals (Thanks to douglas)
Level 2- Fleshraker, MM3 (Thanks to douglas)
Level 3 - Dat Crab, MM2
Level 4 - Owlbear (Thanks to angry_bear)
Level 5 - Abyssal Ravager, MM2
Level 6 - Living Deep Slumber (Ooze)
Level 7 - Darktentacles, MM2
Level 8 - Slaughter Wight, LM
Level 9 - Adamantine Horror (Thanks to Lateral)
Level 10 - Level 11 Commoner w/ "awesome" gear (Thanks to douglas, and ddude987 for the tip concering CR and commoners.)
Level 11 - Immolth, MM2 (Thanks to douglas)

Any ideas?

[Lateral]

Level 9? Adamantine Horror.
...and watch your party cry.

[NOhara24]

Level 9? Adamantine Horror.
...and watch your party cry.

I had almost forgotten about that one. :smallbiggrin: Thank you sir.

[Douglas]

Level 9? Adamantine Horror.
...and watch your party cry.
Indeed.

For CR 2, the Fleshraker dinosaur from MM3 is a classic.

CR 9, the Immoth from MM2. Casts as a level 12 sorc, and has all sorts of extra stuff on top of that, including the ability to have up to 14 spells (from its spells known list, but no other restrictions) stored up in free-action-activatable item form. Oh, and its spells known list is left entirely to the DM, not even with any suggestions, so you can customize that all you want without providing any basis for complaints that you departed from what the book says (if anyone in your party is inclined to make such complaints).

Edit: Oh wait, 9 is already taken by the Adamantine Horror. Um, tough call there. I think the Horror's "WTF Disjunction!?!?" effect is better for horrifying your players with the cost of their victory, but the Immoth played to its potential is probably a greater actual threat with the ability to dump 15 spells on the first round.

Edit2: The Immoth has "Advancement: By character class". Add a class level or two (sorc or, better, some casting PrC with good level 1 or 2 abilities) and stick it in CR 10 or 11. Tada, now you have both.:smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

CR 2?
2 Pocket Golems?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pocket_Golem_(3.5e_Creature)

[Douglas]

CR 2?
2 Pocket Golems?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pocket_Golem_(3.5e_Creature)
That's homebrew, which I'd say doesn't count.

Oh, on the other end of the spectrum: a high level Commoner with poorly chosen gear. For extra laughs, stick it between the Adamantine Horror and the advanced Immoth.

[NOhara24]

Oh, on the other end of the spectrum: a high level Commoner with poorly chosen gear. For extra laughs, stick it between the Adamantine Horror and the advanced Immoth.

Or, a low level commoner with awesome gear. One of the two. I would like the last battle to either be a complete joke or something that maybe half the party escapes with their lives from.


-snip-

I'm going to have to save that Immolth bit for later as well, that's a party killer. Trusting the DM to pick spells for his own monsters? What was wizards thinking?

[Douglas]

Or, a low level commoner with awesome gear. One of the two. I would like the last battle to either be a complete joke or something that maybe half the party escapes with their lives from.
Use both. CR 1 can be a level 2 Commoner with twinked out Handle Animal and the nastiest minion animals you can find and fit within his gear and skill budget. CR 10 can be a level 11 Commoner with Skill Focus (Underwater Basket Weaving) and similarly useless stuff for everything. Then make CR 11 an advanced Immoth. Giving it two levels of advancement will even let you pull out a 7th level spell (and potentially put 14 copies of it in the Ice Runes).


I'm going to have to save that Immolth bit for later as well, that's a party killer. Trusting the DM to pick spells for his own monsters? What was wizards thinking?
And giving the monster casting as a PC class 3 levels above its CR, and giving it all sorts of peripheral benefits better than what that PC class gets, and...

[Grayson01]

Do you want a single creature per floor or a Ecounter level of creatures equal to that level of the floor?

[Douglas]

Do you want a single creature per floor or a Ecounter level of creatures equal to that level of the floor?
Oh dear god... TWO Immoths for level 11.:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[NOhara24]

Do you want a single creature per floor or a Ecounter level of creatures equal to that level of the floor?

Honestly? Whichever would cause my players to "wut" harder. They do have some rudimentary knowledge of CR between them, enough to know that it's not trustworthy. I think a swarm of 1/2 or 1/4 CR monsters would be too obvious as to where the challenge is coming from. I think the one I like the most so far is the CR2 floor in which the players will walk in and (if I'm lucky) will go something like:

"Oh, it's just one dinosaur guys, step back I got this." Says the Wizard.

*Initiative*

"OH GOD IT'S TEARING OUT MY INSIDES, HELP ME PLEASE."

And thus the level 11 wizard gets embarassed by a level 2 monster.

[Lateral]

And giving the monster casting as a PC class 3 levels above its CR, and giving it all sorts of peripheral benefits better than what that PC class gets, and...

...and anywhere between five and fourteen free quickened spells...

[Epinephrine_Syn]

If you're using Book of Vile Darkness, you could always grab the Soul Eater Prc, and slap two levels of it onto an appropriate class. It'd be hard to shuffle that into lvl 8 or less, but conceivably possible with a warforged race, 5 full BAB class levels, and then two levels of soul eater. Try to get as many natural attacks and base attacks per round, with things like Monk Flurry, Pounce, Snap Kick, and the like. The level drain might be easy to get immunity to later, but not at CR 7. Just make sure to include other things for the monster to do, cause it can only 1-shot one of the party members a round.

I know you said 'not too harsh', but if you're putting the Adamantine Horror in, I may as well mention Soul Eater.

[angry_bear]

Could always go with the Tucker's Kobolds method. I've always wanted to do that to my players... It consists of basic kobolds, but ones that have turned a dungeon into an unspeakable horror filled with traps, and no save situations.

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

Remember to include an Owlbear somewhere too... No dungeon of ridiculousness is complete without at least one owlbear. lol

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Ooh, wait, my previous entry is CL 7, not CR 7. You could put a whole party of 4 Warforged Soul Eaters in there. That'd be fun. :smallamused:

[NOhara24]

If you're using Book of Vile Darkness, you could always grab the Soul Eater Prc, and slap two levels of it onto an appropriate class. It'd be hard to shuffle that into lvl 8 or less, but conceivably possible with a warforged race, 5 full BAB class levels, and then two levels of soul eater. Try to get as many natural attacks and base attacks per round, with things like Monk Flurry, Pounce, Snap Kick, and the like. The level drain might be easy to get immunity to later, but not at CR 7. Just make sure to include other things for the monster to do, cause it can only 1-shot one of the party members a round.

I know you said 'not too harsh', but if you're putting the Adamantine Horror in, I may as well mention Soul Eater.

Admittedly, I am trying to avoid outright building characters. I let the commoner suggestions slide because a commoner being able to do anything at all is hilarious. I want to be able to describe what the players are seeing in great detail, and I feel as though describing something that isn't humanoid is easier to get the shock factor going.

That, and two of my players have bonuses to damage and AC against humanoids.

[Douglas]

...and anywhere between five and fourteen free quickened spells...
...that don't come from spells per day, aren't constrained by the spell level increase, and aren't technically quickened so they aren't restricted to 1/round...

Take your standard level 12 Sorcerer of a normal PC race. This guy is CR 12. An Immoth is better than him in every way, including spellcasting, and is... CR 9?:smallconfused:

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Soul Eater is a Prc specifically designed for monsters, and works with natural attacks. My other suggestion was a Mind Flayer with two levels in Soul eater, long as you can get the 5 BAB somehow. Hell, a Dragon could qualify, if you could find a proper age category for it. Just find a monster that likes to pounce on its enemies, stick two levels of Soul Eater on it, make sure there's 4 of them in the room, and have a ball.

[NOhara24]

Could always go with the Tucker's Kobolds method. I've always wanted to do that to my players... It consists of basic kobolds, but ones that have turned a dungeon into an unspeakable horror filled with traps, and no save situations.

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

Remember to include an Owlbear somewhere too... No dungeon of ridiculousness is complete without at least one owlbear. lol

Tucker's Kobolds will have to wait for another session entirely...although I'm definitely using that idea. :smallwink:

Owlbears...I think that would fit in nicely at CR4. Improved Grab would wreak havoc on the Sorceress, as she's small.

[Douglas]

Level 10 - Level 11 Commoner w/ awesome gear (Thanks to douglas)
The "awesome" there is meant ironically, right? The whole point of that suggestion was to find something ridiculously far below the threat level its official CR indicates, and good gear would go against that. You could make it gear the commoner can't make good use of but would partially replace what will likely be lost to the Horror's Disjunction, though. If you're feeling nice.

[NOhara24]

The "awesome" there is meant ironically, right?

Fix'd. :P

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[zlefin]

Hmm, best I can come up with is a 24 HD gelatinous cube, though the only scary part is the DC 32 save to avoid paralysis when hit. Or maybe a 20hd cube with one class level; can't find a class that really fits it well though, unless you count hd for 1/2 initiator level, then you could get some level 6 maneuvers.

[NOhara24]

Hmm, best I can come up with is a 24 HD gelatinous cube, though the only scary part is the DC 32 save to avoid paralysis when hit. Or maybe a 20hd cube with one class level; can't find a class that really fits it well though, unless you count hd for 1/2 initiator level, then you could get some level 6 maneuvers.

If my party hadn't just had an interesting encounter with a gelatinous cube, i'd be all for it. :)

[Epinephrine_Syn]

One thing you could do is have one of the floors have the 'floor' disappear entirely, and drop you into an aquatic encounter. I'm not sure what you could encounter there though, maybe a swarm of piranha, or an Elemental Weird of Water. Or maybe just ordinary elementals. See how well your PC's fare in a sudden dynamic environment change.

[NOhara24]

See how well your PC's fare in a sudden dynamic environment change.

The Ranger: Drowns

Everyone else would probably be okay though.

[zlefin]

I couldn't find something to work for this:
a base creature to apply the half-fiend template to (darn that int-requirement), that was also advanceable by HD, using the default monster advancement rules (so up to 4 HD/cr for some types), so that it could be cr 8 and still cast a blasphemy at a nice high CL (or summon monster IX, or any of the other nice good goodies a high HD half-fiend gets to cast)

[ddude987]

A level 11 commoner is only cr 5.5 even by the booms rules.

[NOhara24]

A level 11 commoner is only cr 5.5 even by the booms rules.

Epic level commoner it is :smallwink:

[Douglas]

A level 11 commoner is only cr 5.5 even by the booms rules.
That's what you get from the "adding class levels to a monster" rules. The "normal race as an NPC class" rules say level minus 1.

[Mithril Leaf]

Water Orc Fighter 2/Were Legendary Tiger 26. Only a CR 8 encounter! What fun.

[Crasical]

Dragonwrought Kobold (with the natural weapons racial trait from the ROTD web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)) Soul Eater. Tiny little lizard dude from a memetically weak race wading into battle screaming "I'LL SWALLOW YOUR SOUL!!". If you feel mean (And believe that Slight Build allows the kobold to qualify for it) toss in some Confound the Big Folk for "AAA GET IT OFF ME" action as the soul-eating kobold gets soft cover, a 50% chance to deflect attacks onto the person they're face-eating, treats their target as flat-footed and gets +4 to crit confirmation.