[3e/3.5e]Spell-to-Power Erudite

[PlusSixPelican]

I've heard in a couple places about the Spell-to-Power Erudite. As my google-fu is lacking today...what does it do, exactly?

[Gavinfoxx]

Hope I wasnt ninjad:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Yay, not ninjaed!

[Karnith]

I've heard in a couple places about the Spell-to-Power Erudite. As my google-fu is lacking today...what does it do, exactly?
You can find it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). It basically lets you trade your first-level bonus feat for the ability to learn arcane spells as powers. Which means that you can learn essentially any/every power and (8th-level or lower) arcane spell in the game. It's a little strong, to say the least.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Flickerdart]

It has a lot of drawbacks compared to just being a wizard though, because of how psionic powers scale.

[Emperor Tippy]

You are better off just going regular Psion and buying the spells from StP Erudites through the use of Psychic Chiguery.

Combine with Wyrm Wizard and you can also get all divine spells.

All powers, all arcane spells, all divine spells; can be manifested at will. The true Tier 0. :smallwink:

[Phelix-Mu]

You are better off just going regular Psion and buying the spells from StP Erudites through the use of Psychic Chiguery.

Combine with Wyrm Wizard and you can also get all divine spells.

All powers, all arcane spells, all divine spells; can be manifested at will. The true Tier 0. :smallwink:

The obvious and seeming intended abuse of psychic chirurgery continues to amaze me. It seems to me that it's basically written to ensure that there is a psionic affiliation out there whose members all have all powers as powers known. There was considerable legacy involved, as there was a similarly ridiculous power back in the days of 2e, but I would have thought some small nod towards balance would have been included.

Alas, the ways of the WotC design team continue to be a mystery to me. One day, I hope to see the world as they did, and be able to say "Wow, all this RAW that I thought was totally borked and horribly edited is, in fact, a work of art."

That day seems to grow ever further away, though.:smallannoyed:

[DMVerdandi]

You are better off just going regular Psion and buying the spells from StP Erudites through the use of Psychic Chiguery.

Combine with Wyrm Wizard and you can also get all divine spells.

All powers, all arcane spells, all divine spells; can be manifested at will. The true Tier 0. :smallwink:

You must explain to me how this works. From my viewpoint.

1. If you are saying an erudite cast Psychic Chiguery, they cannot. It's a ninth-level telepath power.

2. Wyrm wizard only gives one new off list spell per level.

3. Wyrm Wizard adds to the arcane list of the previous class.


So in that case, only a psion can use Psychic Chiguery, Thus only psion powers can be transfered. Furthermore, Wyrm wizard has no capability to bestow all divine spells.
At least from what I can understand from RAW. If I am wrong, let me know.

It seems like WAY too much cheese, thus not likely.
Some would say STP erudite is cheesy on it's own, so the lesser of two evils would win this out.

@OP
STP Erudite is one of the coolest classes in the game, and my personal favorite. It has a cool manifesting mechanic, even if it is slow to start, and it can be painted in a very focused, and dedicated way. Focusing on maybe 5-10 related spells (Lets say fire spells), gives off a very comic superhero feel, and that is why I think it is coolest. Even though it has that feel, you can change which spells/powers you want to manifest before you even cast them.


It kicks ass.

[Phelix-Mu]

You must explain to me how this works. From my viewpoint.

1. If you are saying an erudite cast Psychic Chiguery, they cannot. It's a ninth-level telepath power.

2. Wyrm wizard only gives one new off list spell per level.

3. Wyrm Wizard adds to the arcane list of the previous class.


So in that case, only a psion can use Psychic Chiguery, Thus only psion powers can be transfered. Furthermore, Wyrm wizard has no capability to bestow all divine spells.
At least from what I can understand from RAW. If I am wrong, let me know.

It seems like WAY too much cheese, thus not likely.
Some would say STP erudite is cheesy on it's own, so the lesser of two evils would win this out.

@OP
STP Erudite is one of the coolest classes in the game, and my personal favorite. It has a cool manifesting mechanic, even if it is slow to start, and it can be painted in a very focused, and dedicated way. Focusing on maybe 5-10 related spells (Lets say fire spells), gives off a very comic superhero feel, and that is why I think it is coolest. Even though it has that feel, you can change which spells/powers you want to manifest before you even cast them.


It kicks ass.

StP erudite buys psychic chirurgery (p.c.) from a telepath. A telepath can use p.c. to give p.c., thus anyone/everyone that can manifest 9th level powers gets p.c. Through psychic reformation shuffling and the help of said npc psion, enough money will quickly teach all of the psions ever all of the powers in EPH (at least those that they are high enough level to manifest).

Same goes for the erudites, unless I'm missing something.

Erudites learn the spells as powers and high-level erudites with p.c. pass the rare ones around until they aren't rare. StP erudite takeover of the multiverse, T-10 days and counting.

I believe there is a trick to get the 9th level powers off of the other discipline lists pre-epic, but it's not coming to me at the moment...oh wait, right, the 17th level kineticist buys p.c. off the 17th level telepath, and then spreads around the 9th level kineticist powers. Right.

Did I mention that p.c. seems waaaay too convenient?

[Spuddles]

Thought Bottle gets around most xp problems of psi surgery, which makes price more reasonable.

But as long as you have abuse of that high a level, there's no reason a level 20 necropolitan sorcerer hasnt researched a version of every Sp, Psi, Spell, and Su in existence while on his fast time plane.

[Emperor Tippy]

You must explain to me how this works. From my viewpoint.

1. If you are saying an erudite cast Psychic Chiguery, they cannot. It's a ninth-level telepath power.
Pay a psion with PC to give it to the Erudite, he can then give StP's to the Psion.


2. Wyrm wizard only gives one new off list spell per level.

3. Wyrm Wizard adds to the arcane list of the previous class.
Makes it valid for StP and thus transferable to the Psion. Use Psychic Reformation or level removal/addition or just multiple Wyrm Wizards to get all spells.



So in that case, only a psion can use Psychic Chiguery, Thus only psion powers can be transfered. Furthermore, Wyrm wizard has no capability to bestow all divine spells.
At least from what I can understand from RAW. If I am wrong, let me know.

It seems like WAY too much cheese, thus not likely.
Some would say STP erudite is cheesy on it's own, so the lesser of two evils would win this out.
See above.


@OP
STP Erudite is one of the coolest classes in the game, and my personal favorite. It has a cool manifesting mechanic, even if it is slow to start, and it can be painted in a very focused, and dedicated way. Focusing on maybe 5-10 related spells (Lets say fire spells), gives off a very comic superhero feel, and that is why I think it is coolest. Even though it has that feel, you can change which spells/powers you want to manifest before you even cast them.


It kicks ass.

I find it idiotic. It trades the biggest advantage of the Psion for fake versatility. With PC you can just by the advantage of the Erudite.

[Phelix-Mu]

Thought Bottle gets around most xp problems of psi surgery, which makes price more reasonable.

But as long as you have abuse of that high a level, there's no reason a level 20 necropolitan sorcerer hasnt researched a version of every Sp, Psi, Spell, and Su in existence while on his fast time plane.

Well, xp exchanged for NI power, it's a tradeoff. Even sans thought bottle, a selective psion can afford to transfer the most useful powers to their little circle of psionic friends (read: THRALL), and then Expanded Knowledge shuffle a bit more, to learn most of the best stuff for what amounts to NOT THAT MUCH.

Yes, the necropolitan sorcerer can do the same, in theory, but since he's the BBEG in the campaign :smalltongue:, it's not such a terrible thing. If the DM has opted to allow fast-time trait exploitation, then I think psychic chirurgery is pretty much right at home.

[DMVerdandi]

StP erudite buys psychic chirurgery (p.c.) from a telepath. A telepath can use p.c. to give p.c., thus anyone/everyone that can manifest 9th level powers gets p.c. Through psychic reformation shuffling and the help of said npc psion, enough money will quickly teach all of the psions ever all of the powers in EPH (at least those that they are high enough level to manifest).

Same goes for the erudites, unless I'm missing something.

Erudites learn the spells as powers and high-level erudites with p.c. pass the rare ones around until they aren't rare. StP erudite takeover of the multiverse, T-10 days and counting.

I believe there is a trick to get the 9th level powers off of the other discipline lists pre-epic, but it's not coming to me at the moment...oh wait, right, the 17th level kineticist buys p.c. off the 17th level telepath, and then spreads around the 9th level kineticist powers. Right.

Did I mention that p.c. seems waaaay too convenient?
Aha! Well that is... ahem... yeah, kinda cheesy.






Pay a psion with PC to give it to the Erudite, he can then give StP's to the Psion.

Makes it valid for StP and thus transferable to the Psion. Use Psychic Reformation or level removal/addition or just multiple Wyrm Wizards to get all spells.

See above.

I find it idiotic. It trades the biggest advantage of the Psion for fake versatility. With PC you can just by the advantage of the Erudite.
Well, I think the thing is, all of this is contengient on how much resources the DM gives you. Allowing psionics is one, allowing erudites and stp erudites are two different others. Having this is totally possible on a T.O level, and knowing your reputation, tippy, that is the level in which your games operate, but it's ALOT.

And it's expensive as all get out, requires too much metagaming (Assuming that one can find all of these people and powers.) But to be able to actively pay for all of these might prove to be more costly.


For lower, practical optimization games, STP erudite is a step up.

[Psyren]

It has a lot of drawbacks compared to just being a wizard though, because of how psionic powers scale.

And a lot of advantages as well. Free Forcecages for everyone!

[Phelix-Mu]

There are a few ways that psions would probably make things accessible to each other, much in the way of mages guilds and such. Coming together for collective benefit and all. Might not be everyone's slice of pie, but it would be popular enough to make it a functional resource that a DM would probably need some explanation of why things don't work that way (like psions are ostracized or outlawed...such reasons aren't hard to come up with and make for nice setting flavor, in any case).

Also, if the DM has StP erudites and things like psiotheurgy and such in the setting, then it implies a fairly high level of magic/psionics crossover and intercommunication among the communities, increasing the plausibility of such exploits.

While I eschew thought bottle tactics, I would pretty much green-light psions and erudites using Leadership, affiliations and such to learn additional powers. I don't think I would allow the Psychic Chirurgery Store (though that kind of shop would be one KickAss kind of establishment for a high-level telepath to run...*writes in notebook*), but these tricks mean that epic psions would probably all Thrallherd 1, nab a psion thrall, and promptly know whatever powers they wanted via p.c. and psychic reformation/Expanded Knowledge shuffling. Expensive, but versatality? Priceless.

As to every other psion having access to powers garnered from erudites. Well, I'd probably have to put my foot down to that. If a player proposed it and had a plausible way to pull it off, then maybe, but I'd hardly have it be the default tactics of all the psions in my setting.

The real thing, though, is that p.c. exploitation is hardly a "trick." The power's subtext is pretty much "and now you know all powers." Feels like a pretty softball level of optimization.

[Flickerdart]

And a lot of advantages as well. Free Forcecages for everyone!
Isn't there some nonsense about replacing GP components with an XP cost?

[Karnith]

Isn't there some nonsense about replacing GP components with an XP cost?
Nope. Just 2 power points.

As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost. Spells with expensive material components (non-negligible) require you to spend an additional 2 power points when manifesting the spell in lieu of the material components. If you happen to have the material components, no additional power point cost is assessed. Spells with a focus are treated the same as those with a material component. If the spell has an expensive material component and a focus, the additional power point cost would be 4.
(Emphasis mine)

[Kazyan]

And a lot of advantages as well. Free Forcecages for everyone!

Oh, good, I'm not the only one who notices that Forcecage has a cost. Ever noticed how much that spell comes up in "wizards win" discussions, ignoring that it eats gold like a rust monster?

[ryu]

To a wizard who understands how spells work gold is trivial to obtain. Also keep in mind that WBL is a measure of expected gold on average in total wealth on the character at the time rather than a measure of total gold owned and spent over their career.

[Bogardan_Mage]

So does Psychic Chirurgery mean that Psions are Tier 1? How about Wilders? They can know every power at once and, thanks to the StP Erudite, every spell as well. They also don't need to prepare them and are not limited in unique powers per day as the Erudite is. Surely that's better than every other class?

[Psyren]

So does Psychic Chirurgery mean that Psions are Tier 1?

It's a 9th-level Telepath-only power - the chances of it being readily available in all campaigns is slim. If Psions are T1 because PC exists, Truenamers are T1 because of free Gate.

I won't deny that it's a very useful power - if you can access it freely enough to start any shenanigan-laden loops.


Nope. Just 2 power points.

(Emphasis mine)

Yep. Effectively, expensive material component spells become powers at one level higher.

But here's the kicker - because the spells are discipline powers, you'd have to be one spell-level higher to learn them anyway. Thus you lose nothing. For example, Forcecage is a 7th-level spell - an Erudite would need to be 15th-level to learn it (i.e. capable of manifesting 8th-level generalist powers), and needs 15 ML to manifest it (13PP+2 for the expensive component.)