Sciencey Origins for Superman

[Carry2]

Given the recent discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287709) of Man of Steel, it struck me as interesting that relatively few folks were mentioning the elephant in the room: that an alien species which evolved under radically different environmental conditions could visually resemble a human. Or, for that matter, what kind of biology could result in superpowers on that scale. And since I only have 87 better things to do, and am apparently completely mad, I thought I'd take a look at what a relatively 'gritty and realistic' superman might be like.

One of the half-serious (http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html) suggestions I've read is that Krypton was actually a black dwarf star in orbit around a larger red giant, and I was also fond of Aaron Diaz' revamped Justice league (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/10979241054/rebooting-the-justice-league), so in that vein, I was thinking that a Krypton composed of exotic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_baryon) ejected from a neutron star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar) would be an interesting take on the origin story (they even have exoplanets.) X-Ray vision might actually make sense for a species that lived in an environment where that was your primary energy source, though perhaps strong magnetic fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Magnetic_field) would also do the trick. (And if they somehow evolved on a neutron star, their tissues would be dense enough to plough through terrestrial matter like a bullet through interstellar hydrogen. A world of cardboard indeed.)

The question, of course, is how or why such a creature could be on earth in the first place, looking otherwise inconspicuous. I'm tempted to just borrow elements from Starman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starman_(film)), DS9's Odo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odo_(Star_Trek)), the conceptually-nigh-identical Martian Manhunter or a combination of Gort plus Klaatu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Earth_Stood_Still), since some kind of deliberate missionary work or shapeshifting abilities are the easiest workaround here, but that's hard to reconcile with the character's range of abilities or key psychological elements. However, you could theorise some kind of 'imprinting instinct' where an infant Kryptonian bonds with (http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1995/02/05) and imitates the appearance and behaviour of the first things it sees, growing up among humans like a wolf-child. (That might be an interestingly dark twist- that despite the Kents' best intentions Kal'El could actually, by his species' original standards, be a profoundly damaged creature.)

While I'm on the subject, I've been pondering the idea that a series about Lex Luthor might be an interesting sort of Breaking Bad-style character study (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/breaking_bad_hair), given the many fascinating and morally-fraught intersections between monopoly capitalism, international geopolitics and the rapid development of GNR technologies. But that, alas, is unlikely to materialise, and certainly a topic for another day.

For the moment, this may be my personal best for link density(!)

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[AstralFire]

I'm a bit preoccupied to give a better discussion, but I felt like they kind of missed an opportunity there - modify the age of the scout ship a little and you have a plausible case that the human form is a derivative of the Kryptonian form from one of their earlier terraforming attempts.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The Physics of Superheroes book (which examines early-era Superman) determines that Krypton had to be roughly the size of Earth with 15 times Earth's gravity for Superman to pull off most of the stuff he did in the early comics.

The author suggests that Krypton had a core of neutron star-stuff in it's middle, about 600 m across. This also accounts for Krypton's destruction, as such a planet would be quite unstable, in the long run.

As to how Superman looks human, eh. Wave your hands and shout "parallel evolution", then run away while everyone is thinking about it.

Modern Superman is, of course, goddamn magic.


While I'm on the subject, I've been pondering the idea that a series about Lex Luthor might be an interesting sort of Breaking Bad-style character study, given the many fascinating and morally-fraught intersections between monopoly capitalism, international geopolitics and the rapid development of GNR technologies. But that, alas, is unlikely to materialise, and certainly a topic for another day.

There's the Azzarello miniseries "Luthor", which is sort of similar to what you're describing here. It's quite good.

[Ravens_cry]

While I can't link to it, being quite NSFW, and it's a tad out of date now, 'Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex' by Larry Niven could be an interesting, if squicky, read if you want to get into some extrapolation of Superman's abilities and how they affect matters of a personal nature.

[Hawriel]

I figured that Superman got very very lucky in the mutations with his exposure to Sol's radiation. Also that his baby space ship might have been able to monitor genetic changes, predict the consequences of and neutralize, fix, or allow them as they happened. Zod and his lackeys should have died horribly to radiation poisoning and cancer.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Red Son came up with a good explanation...

Krypton is actually Earth in the distant future, and Kel-Rl was actually sent back in time.

Of course, this was an alternative universe story.

[AstralFire]

While I personally REALLY did not enjoy that explanation (I can't even explain why I don't) it has always struck me as one of the most clever.

[Cikomyr]

Red Son came up with a good explanation...

Krypton is actually Earth in the distant future, and Kel-Rl was actually sent back in time.

Of course, this was an alternative universe story.

Wasn't it still Ka-El? As in,

Ka-L, or Ka-Luthor?

[Carry2]

I'm a bit preoccupied to give a better discussion, but I felt like they kind of missed an opportunity there - modify the age of the scout ship a little and you have a plausible case that the human form is a derivative of the Kryptonian form from one of their earlier terraforming attempts.
Eh, I think that kinda just puts the question off a bit, given the continuity of the fossil record. The interesting thing is that, IIRC, the very earliest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Creation_and_conception) conception of Superman was as the product of far-distant human evolution (an idea re-used in Red Son,) which answers the question a lot more neatly. (Not so sure about the powers, though.)


The author suggests that Krypton had a core of neutron star-stuff in it's middle, about 600 m across. This also accounts for Krypton's destruction, as such a planet would be quite unstable, in the long run.
I'm not a physicist, but my guess is that the critical mass needed to create neutronium wouldn't fit within a 600 metre diameter without actually collapsing into a black hole. Even if it could, the gravity would quickly compress the rest of the planet into more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star#Structure) neutron star.

Actually making supes composed of some radically different category of matter is pretty well the only way to account for a fair chunk of his powers, but it has some problematic side-effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangelet#Dangers). (On the other hand, self-catalysing strangelet conversion might be an interesting way to create the semi-stable particle arrangements needed for complex life, but at this point we're into Captain Atom territory.)

There's the Azzarello miniseries "Luthor", which is sort of similar to what you're describing here. It's quite good.
I'll see if I can pick that up at some point. The thing is, Supes is the kind of being who really can't help inspiring something closely akin to existential terror, so one could easily imagine an initially morally-ambiguous Lex becoming increasingly paranoid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYxY7cWxuHg&t=1m33s) on that front. (Particularly if some other initially friendly, secretly hostile, extraterrestrial power showed up. I mean, it beats the usual explanation (http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/4jgxS.jpg).)

[Zevox]

Red Son came up with a good explanation...

Krypton is actually Earth in the distant future, and Kel-Rl was actually sent back in time.

Of course, this was an alternative universe story.
That seemed like a terrible explanation to me. In particular because
it requires us to believe that in the future, humans will evolve in such a way that if the sun hadn't turned red, we'd all have Superman's superpowers. Which is a lot harder to swallow than just "he's an alien, they're different that way."
Frankly, the last couple pages of Red Son were the worst part of the book for me because of that. I prefer to just pretend it ended when
Superman took Braniac into space so he could blow up harmlessly.
Would've been a much better ending to cut it there.

[Carry2]

Red Son came up with a good explanation...
Blast. Ninja'd.

Like I said, in some ways that's actually closer to the roots of the character, and probably lends more support to the 'symbol of hope' idea. If supes were actually a product of some future human civilisation (which is where the 'man of tomorrow' phrase originates), then he represents not just an ideal, but something actually attainable.


That seemed like a terrible explanation to me. In particular because
it requires us to believe that in the future, humans will evolve in such a way that if the sun hadn't turned red, we'd all have Superman's superpowers. Which is a lot harder to swallow than just "he's an alien, they're different that way."
Biology is biology. In principle, it's just as bizarre for life-forms on some entirely different world to evolve in such a way and coincidentally resemble humans as it would be for them to do so here. At least on earth, the coincidental bit is explained.

Of course, depending on whether you're talking about 'leaping over tall buildings' vs. 'reversing the flow of time by flying fast enough', various degrees of bio-integrated magical nano-future-tech might have to be invoked. (And I'm not sure how kryptonite fits into the picture, but eh. Small loss.)

[Traab]

I remember reading somewhere the theory that pretty much all of his abilities were actually psychic in nature. Using telekinesis to reinforce his body and fly, pyrokinesis for heat vision, etc etc etc. His body may or may not naturally be better biologically than a humans due to things like bone and muscle density, but its his mind that makes his abilities possible. It would also explain why a mental block keeps him from dead lifting all of creation or whatever his current silly limit is. Or why he is also super smart, also able to master mental martial arts, etc etc etc. Its because its his BRAIN that has truly evolved differently, not his entire biology.

[AstralFire]

It's at least partially more than just a theory: the official explanation for the bulk of his invulnerability, flight, and superstrength (as well as ability to grab things that should tear off when he does, like catching a plane by only its tail to slow it down) is that he projects a skin-tight level forcefield that is psychokinetic in nature, and he can extend this protection (to some level) to anything he's touching. It wouldn't be a stretch to extend this to his heat vision. That only leaves his frost breath as really anomalous, and frankly, I've wished he'd lose that power for a long time now. It doesn't really fit with the rest of his abilities.

[HandofShadows]

Kinda an offshoot of what Traab posted and fits in with the more current origin story(s). Sups manipulates very large amounts of energy mentaly. If Sups isn't exposed to solar radiation for a period of time (weeks or months) he starts running out of power and when totaly drained is just like a normal person. He is really just a giant solar battery (probaly absorbs other types of radiation other than sunlight as well, lots of high energy particles and stuff that normal passes through matter).

[Manga Shoggoth]

Wasn't it still Ka-El? As in,

Ka-L, or Ka-Luthor?

Yup. For some reason my typing sucks after a pint of Cider.


That seemed like a terrible explanation to me. In particular because
it requires us to believe that in the future, humans will evolve in such a way that if the sun hadn't turned red, we'd all have Superman's superpowers. Which is a lot harder to swallow than just "he's an alien, they're different that way."

The last section of the book is basically pressing the fast-forward button. We have no real idea how long the timescale is (apart from the fact that it is measured by the main sequence...). Biological evolution is much faster than stellar evolution, and technological evolution is even faster (and nonlinear).

For a different take on the same theme (of timescale and evolution), read Day Million by Frederik Pohl. One of my favourite short stories.

[Jothki]

Given how much Krypton sucks for Kryptonians, would it make sense for them to not actually be native, but to have had their ancestors accidently or deliberately trapped there?

[Fjolnir]

So Kryptonians are Daxamites?

I could see something like the planet krypton being a former prison colony for the members of the planet Daxam. By sending them to a place where their powers are suppressed by the solar radiation as well as the higher gravity and the radioactive kryptonite, it would certainly be a properly hostile environment for severe criminals...

[turkishproverb]

While I can't link to it, being quite NSFW, and it's a tad out of date now, 'Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex' by Larry Niven could be an interesting, if squicky, read if you want to get into some extrapolation of Superman's abilities and how they affect matters of a personal nature.

It could be an interesting read, but you should remember that Niven considered that article a joke when he wrote it, so you shouldn't take it too seriously in relation to a "scientific" superman.

[Zevox]

Biology is biology. In principle, it's just as bizarre for life-forms on some entirely different world to evolve in such a way and coincidentally resemble humans as it would be for them to do so here. At least on earth, the coincidental bit is explained.
Perhaps, but I'm not bothered by aliens looking similar to humans. That's something that's simply a general part of my suspension of disbelief at this point, because most aliens in any fiction look at least humanoid, if not very close to outright human, so I could hardly enjoy any stories involving aliens if I let that bother me.


The last section of the book is basically pressing the fast-forward button. We have no real idea how long the timescale is (apart from the fact that it is measured by the main sequence...). Biological evolution is much faster than stellar evolution, and technological evolution is even faster (and nonlinear).
I'm well aware of that. The speed of evolution is not my issue there.

[Connington]

I'm not really fond of the way Red Son ended, although I'll admit it was clever. Krypton is a dying world. The recent film may have leaned a little too hard on the fact that Superman is the Last Son of Krypton and its only hope for a legacy, but it's very much a part of the mythos. Red Son makes that all pointless. He's not flung into the void as a new start, he just winds up making sure that dead and stagnant Krypton comes into existence? No thank you, I prefer my symbols of hope to actually change something.

[Jayngfet]

Human looking aliens is one of the things you kind of have to just accept about any kind of wider DC Universe. I mean if you want to stop Krypton then you need to revamp Maltus, which means the Lantern Corps is also going to be radically different. You'd need to also look after Rann since they're impossible to look at too, being identical to and able to breed with humans. Thanagar would also need a serious reworking as well in order to explain why they evolved to be just like humans. We haven't gotten into the generic "alien" traits like Green Skins or Elf Ears, this is just planets full of people that look just like humans inside and out, and I'm reasonably certain I've missed one or two big ones(excluding Tamaranians, who are just humans with weird tans).

You're basically fitting a square peg into a round hole here. The DC Universe never really ran on things like "scientifically possible", and that's why it's always been one of it's biggest draws and what differentiates it primarily from Marvel. It's a world that almost literally runs on an old timey understanding of radiation supplemented by a good helping of magic rocks. Superman is the guy who's teammates are a wizard, three different kinds of spacemen, a dude in skintight kevlar, a BDSM golem, and an idiot who has a weapon based on creativity. The world he lives in, even in "realistic" movies like Man of Steel(which will surely get much stranger once the inevitable shared universe kicks in, and has a lot of impossibilities in and of itself), is in terms of internal logic so far divorced from our own that to use nothing but our own concepts to try to make what he does possible isn't really the most logical of tasks.

[Fjolnir]

Aww man NOBODY wanted to run with the "krypton was austrailia for daxamites and then it went and blewed up" scenario?!

[Traab]

Aww man NOBODY wanted to run with the "krypton was austrailia for daxamites and then it went and blewed up" scenario?!

Hmm, its possible the planet exploding was just the only way they could stop the kryptonian variation of the bunyips and drop bears.

[Carry2]

He's not flung into the void as a new start, he just winds up making sure that dead and stagnant Krypton comes into existence? No thank you, I prefer my symbols of hope to actually change something.
Well, strictly speaking, the dead-and-stagnant Krypton isn't something Supes or Luthor or anyone else can do much about- it's a consequence of stellar evolution. The upshot is that earth has the benefit of aeons of technological utopia before that happens (and apparently colonises the rest of the solar system, so even the end isn't a total loss.)

At any rate, the basic theme of Red Son is that Supes isn't the world's saviour- that even with the best possible intentions, his presence fosters either oppression or dependancy. (Not saying I 100% agree with that, but if you dislike Supes not being painted as a hero, the last few pages are not unique in that respect. You can see this to a milder extent in Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow, and even Peace On Earth.)

[Manga Shoggoth]

I'm well aware of that. The speed of evolution is not my issue there.

Then what is? By the end of the story, humans have evolved to survive under a red sun. As a side effect of this they have special powers when they move to a planet with a yellow sun. That's not really a difficult thing to swallow.

There is no difference between "humanity at the end of long evolutionary chain" and "an alien did it". That's why I cited Day Million - it deals with precisely that expectation.

[Connington]

Well, strictly speaking, the dead-and-stagnant Krypton isn't something Supes or Luthor or anyone else can do much about- it's a consequence of stellar evolution. The upshot is that earth has the benefit of aeons of technological utopia before that happens (and apparently colonises the rest of the solar system, so even the end isn't a total loss.)

At any rate, the basic theme of Red Son is that Supes isn't the world's saviour- that even with the best possible intentions, his presence fosters either oppression or dependancy. (Not saying I 100% agree with that, but if you dislike Supes not being painted as a hero, the last few pages are not unique in that respect. You can see this to a milder extent in Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow, and even Peace On Earth.)

To me, the point of Superman was to show humanity a way into a Kryptonian style future without making the same mistakes that his own race did. That's Krypton's legacy, the shepherding of a young people who will one day out-do them. By literally turning Earth into Krypton, the aeons of technological utopia are locked into the same fate.

Of course, that is as you say very much in keeping with the theme of Red Son. Which is fine, and it's a fun spin on Superman. There's just a reason that it isn't the "real" one.

[AstralFire]

THAT's why it doesn't sit well with me. Thank you. I couldn't figure it out. That said, the problem with it is more that it's a fixed time loop rather than having actually started humanity down a new path.

[Carry2]

Perhaps, but I'm not bothered by aliens looking similar to humans. That's something that's simply a general part of my suspension of disbelief at this point, because most aliens in any fiction look at least humanoid, if not very close to outright human, so I could hardly enjoy any stories involving aliens if I let that bother me.

You're basically fitting a square peg into a round hole here. The DC Universe never really ran on things like "scientifically possible", and that's why it's always been one of it's biggest draws and what differentiates it primarily from Marvel...
Given that The Avengers features a Norse deity and an obviously-conservation-of-mass-violating green rage monster, I'm not certain there's a vast difference in approach here. But anyway.

I realise this is probably a completely bonkers mental exercise, and I do enjoy a wide range of stories involving virtually-human aliens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(2009_film)), but for reasons quite distinct from their looking human, which happen to outweigh my annoyance at the fact they do. I don't see how them looking virtually-human particularly contributes to the point of the story, given that the alternative (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFiKPzedzY&t=0m57s) can raise more interesting ideas. (Thank you, Mr. Weisman.)


To me, the point of Superman was to show humanity a way into a Kryptonian style future without making the same mistakes that his own race did. That's Krypton's legacy, the shepherding of a young people who will one day out-do them. By literally turning Earth into Krypton, the aeons of technological utopia are locked into the same fate.
But the 'Krypton' in Red Son isn't shown to make any particular mistakes. It eventually dies, but not for any reason they can be held responsible for, and they do spread out throughout the larger universe before that happens. Which is pretty much the best outcome you can hope for.

I never really got the idea of how Supes is supposed to show humanity the way, to be honest. Whatever qualities Kryptonian civilisation had are dependant on either biology or tech expertise- he can't give them the former and isn't quite bright enough to master the latter. (I know some versions of Superman actually give him superhuman intelligence, but I consider that to be one of the dumbest things you can do with the character, for various reasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor#1980s-1990s).) And aside from being an example of individual virtue, Supes isn't really qualified to grapple with large-scale social problems responsible for the bulk of human suffering. Luthor is, which makes his petty enmity all the more tragic.

[Jayngfet]

Given that The Avengers features a Norse deity and an obviously-conservation-of-mass-violating green rage monster, I'm not certain there's a vast difference in approach here. But anyway.

The difference is in approach, not so much end result.

Hulk is a science type who's origin keeps getting updated as things go by, and Thor has as much Sci Fi to him as fantasy, even if it's soft Sci Fi.

Superman though, is even softer. How does he work? Radiation. How is he hurt? Different radiation. How does Wonder Woman work? Magic ...and also radiation.


As a good rule of thumb, think of it this way:

In the DC Universe crazy magic stones(and radioactive stones, which are basically the same thing) are ridiculously common. They're vaguely explained at best but they're just kind of there. There's usually an explanation for specific types but it's usually vague and often interchangable anyway.

In the Marvel universe there aren't really any crazy radiation stones just lying there for the taking(though they do exist I assume in very limited form). Instead, there's just random machines and escaped experiments and chemicals. The amount of super scientists at Marvel is so huge and most of them can afford to just kinda leave their stuff lying around willy nilly, since it's probably easier to just make another one at home than to haul it around apparently. In Marvel, the Mystical is far less common and the Super Scientific more common and rigid.

In one universe, a kid can find a glowing purple stone and transform into a magical girl. In the other, a kid can find a spare giant robot and eventually get enough parts and know how to do some more substantial modifications. You can't just transplant say, Amethyst or Sentinel to the other universe at this point because they wouldn't really fit with the others tone, even if power wise they'd fit in anyway. Their respective backstories and established status quo wouldn't allow it.

[Raimun]

It's at least partially more than just a theory: the official explanation for the bulk of his invulnerability, flight, and superstrength (as well as ability to grab things that should tear off when he does, like catching a plane by only its tail to slow it down) is that he projects a skin-tight level forcefield that is psychokinetic in nature, and he can extend this protection (to some level) to anything he's touching. It wouldn't be a stretch to extend this to his heat vision. That only leaves his frost breath as really anomalous, and frankly, I've wished he'd lose that power for a long time now. It doesn't really fit with the rest of his abilities.

Ok, so Superman has both pyrokinesis and cryokinesis that he has to project somewhere from his body. So he can raise or lower the temperature at extremely rapid speeds.

Yet, he can't project his tactile telekinesis and lift stuff afar. Perhaps it would be too complicated to use it to project it afar and protect his body at the same time. Pyrokinesis and cryokinesis don't have that problem since they aren't needed to protect his body.

That and/or it would be like trying to fill two one litre bottles with one litre of water and at least one of the bottles must be full so it's of any use.

"The one litre of water" being Superman's total telekinetic power.

"The two bottles" represent the need and the use of the power.

Ie. either he manipulates his immediate surroundings with telekinesis and it looks like he can fly, lift heavy stuff and is impervious to all forms of physical attacks.

Or he manipulates an area that does not include him (traditional ranged telekinesis). Thus leaving him vulnerable to attacks.

The close range option is better than the long range option since that way he is protected from attacks and when he needs to lift something heavy that is afar, he can just fly there. Superman is also extremely paranoid so he never uses his telekinetic power at range other than close, where it's left always on. He just lets people assume he's a traditional flying brick.

Using this analogue, Superman also needs to fill one "bottle" with "juice" (pyrokinesis) and one "bottle" with "milk" (cryokinesis). Luckily, he has the sufficient amount of both "juice" and "milk" to fill the bottles.

Explanation like this would have internal consistency, which DC seems to generally lack. One reason I like Marvel more is just this internal consistency. They're a lot better at it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea8p4txAeY)

DC explanation: S/he's just Super!

Marvel explanation: half-sciency explanation that you totally bought at the age of ten. :smallamused: :smallcool:

[AstralFire]

...You just made that a lot more complicated than it needs to be, really.

"Superman's psychokinesis can propagate through solid matter, but propagates extremely poorly through air, except as a release of raw energy (thermokinesis). His heat vision doesn't theoretically need to be from his eyes, but it's where he finds it easiest to focus into a fine point. And while it dissipates quickly through open air, the amount of energy released is still more than sufficient for propulsion, just not manipulation."

"Superman's cryogenic breath is a side-effect of the method with which he draws out energy for his other abilities."

Marvel's explanations usually just end up annoying me. "Cyclops' eye beams are inconsistent because his eyes are really windows to a non-Euclidean universe!"

And you use that for shooting lasers at people?

There are characters that they make a real effort to explain, but I usually prefer "it's magic" to a completely half-assed explanation.

[Raimun]

...You just made that a lot more complicated than it needs to be, really.


Damn it.

... I have no regrets! :smallcool:

[Zevox]

Then what is? By the end of the story, humans have evolved to survive under a red sun. As a side effect of this they have special powers when they move to a planet with a yellow sun. That's not really a difficult thing to swallow.
Yes, yes it is. Aliens have the advantage of being something other than human - they're inventions of the writer, and can work however he sees fit to make them work, especially if the story obviously isn't trying to be too grounded in real-world science. On the flip side, we all know how humans work for obvious reasons, so a concept like that is far harder to swallow when you try to assign it to us instead.

[AstralFire]

Damn it.

... I have no regrets! :smallcool:

The best part is, I'm pretty sure what I just said is pretty close to the official explanation as cited by why they based the lab-made Superboy's powers based on telekinesis.

[Raimun]

The best part is, I'm pretty sure what I just said is pretty close to the official explanation as cited by why they based the lab-made Superboy's powers based on telekinesis.

Oh? Well I have read Marvel a lot more than DC so I didn't know that about Superboy. I just knew there is Superboy.

Then again, apart from him there's also Superman, Superwoman, Supergirl and most likely Superyoungman, Superoldman, Superyoungwoman and superoldwoman. And Superdog.

[Traab]

Oh? Well I have read Marvel a lot more than DC so I didn't know that about Superboy. I just knew there is Superboy.

Then again, apart from him there's also Superman, Superwoman, Supergirl and most likely Superyoungman, Superoldman, Superyoungwoman and superoldwoman. And Superdog.

There is a superdog. Krypto. There is also black superman, several incarnations of young superman, (not clark, just a young superman) and other such oddities, including a british superman.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Yes, yes it is. Aliens have the advantage of being something other than human - they're inventions of the writer, and can work however he sees fit to make them work, especially if the story obviously isn't trying to be too grounded in real-world science. On the flip side, we all know how humans work for obvious reasons, so a concept like that is far harder to swallow when you try to assign it to us instead.

Not really. Humans in the far distant future are as much inventions of the writer as aliens. And if "the story obviously isn't trying to be too grounded in real-world science" then the whole question is moot anyway.

We "know how humans work" now. This gives us no information on what humans would evolve to be like in the far future. And that's just "natural" evolution - if the future humans are adding genetic engineering (the sci fi/fantasy version...) into the mix all bets are off.

If you haven't read Day Million, I would really reccomend it.

[AstralFire]

Oh? Well I have read Marvel a lot more than DC so I didn't know that about Superboy. I just knew there is Superboy.

Then again, apart from him there's also Superman, Superwoman, Supergirl and most likely Superyoungman, Superoldman, Superyoungwoman and superoldwoman. And Superdog.

There are around 13 or 14 different versions of Supergirl. The most successful one is Power Girl, who was also probably DC's most well-written heroine, IMO. We... try not to think about the rest.

Superboy was traditionally Superman but younger, but the 80's reboot for Superman excised the Legion of Superheroes and time-travel shenanigans from his backstory. In the 90s, Superboy was rebooted - initially presented as a clone of Superman who had a serious attitude/identity problem (and dressed as a parody pastiche of several tough-guy heroes of the 90), it was revealed that Cadmus Labs had actually failed to decrypt most of Superman's genetic structure, and the majority of his powers were weaker or worked a little bit different because they were: they were the best emulation they could make using tactile telekinesis. The chief difference between Connor Kent's Tactile TK and Clark Kent's biokinesis (aside from strength) is that Connor's tactile TK is actually based on the strength of his mind, though it's passed through his skin; Superman's biokinesis is generated by his muscles.

It was actually pretty interesting.

Now he's some weird kitbashed hybrid of Superman and Lex Luthor or something... I stopped following comics between Final Crisis in DC and Civil War/Brand New Day in Marvel. :smallsigh:

[Carry2]

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on the whole Marvel vs. DC debate. But I feel obliged to mention that while our understanding of far-future gene-tailoring, nanotech, neutron star composition or the physics of exotic matter are quite limited, we have essentially no idea of how psychic abilities might work.

The point is, if you're saying that Superman has his abilities because of psychic powers that are generated (somehow) by this muscles, then you are effectively just calling him superstrong and indestructable and able-to-catch-planes-in-mid-flight-for-some-reason. It's not really explaining anything until you know how telekinetics works in the first place. It's basically invoking a different flavour of magic (though, like magic, you might at least invent an internally-consistent system for it. Did that happen? I dunno.)

[AstralFire]

No, I'm actually in full agreement - psychic powers aren't any more grounded in science than anything else. Granted, there are very few characters on either side who are actually grounded in science. When you get down to it, I think most people get confused between internal consistency (verisimilitude) and plausibility (realism). It's not surprising we veered into the former before long, though I do apologize.

[Ravens_cry]

No, I'm actually in full agreement - psychic powers aren't any more grounded in science than anything else. Granted, there are very few characters on either side who are actually grounded in science. When you get down to it, I think most people get confused between internal consistency (verisimilitude) and plausibility (realism). It's not surprising we veered into the former before long, though I do apologize.
Well . . .telepathy could be brought into the science fold if it worked via radio and generally only worked between the same species and was only short range unless hooked up to a amplifier and transmitter. Our brains emit radio waves, radio waves that correspond well enough with certain thoughts that they have been used to control devices. A species that could pick up these kinds of waves and interpret them could use it as a form of communication, at least within their own species.
What would we call that but telepathy?
An extreme savant for making connections and predictions beyond human ken would seem like a kind of oracle.
Telekinesis and pretty much any other psychic power is right out though.

[Darth Credence]

Explanation like this would have internal consistency, which DC seems to generally lack. One reason I like Marvel more is just this internal consistency. They're a lot better at it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea8p4txAeY)


In that link, you have Stan Lee complaining that Superman flies with no visible means of propulsion. He also created the characters of Jean Grey and Doctor Strange, both characters who fly with no visible means of propulsion (possibly among others, I don't know all of his characters). Stan Lee is now not worth listening to.

[AstralFire]

I can't speak for Dr. Strange, and Stan Lee's kinda crazy, but I don't think Jean Grey had the ability to fly when Stan created her. IIRC she had a 25 pound limit on her telekinesis then.

[Darth Credence]

That mitigates it a little bit, if he did not originally give her that power. But, if so he probably should be doing a rant about how people from Marvel have taken to giving the same power he is ranting about not having an explanation in Superman to his characters.

[Carry2]

I suppose that if Jean grey has TK powers in general, then equal-but-opposite-reactions should make it possible for her to push herself away from the ground- i.e, levitate/fly. (Which raises a problem with the TK-Superman theory, since if his powers can't propagate through the air, how does he fly? And if they do, why can't he use them at a distance?)

For comparison, my initial thought was that if krypton was a planet where intense X-rays and powerful magnetic fields were a primary energy source, he might be able to flying using maglev based off the sun or earth's magnetic fields. Trouble is, that basically makes him Magneto, who can do a bunch of other stuff we don't see in Kal-El's repertoire.

(Also, even the feeblest neutron star has a magnetic field roughly 100 million times stronger than the sun's, such that putting a kryptonian on earth would be significantly harsher than stranding a deep-sea fish in the middle of the atacama desert. I'm... uh, working on that.)

[AstralFire]

I suppose that if Jean grey has TK powers in general, then equal-but-opposite-reactions should make it possible for her to push herself away from the ground- i.e, levitate/fly. (Which raises a problem with the TK-Superman theory, since if his powers can't propagate through the air, how does he fly?)

Propagate was an inaccurate word - essentially, it's that the force loses any coherency whatsoever very, very quickly. It's more akin to rocket propulsion than levitation, basically. Which also covers him flying in space. It would require him to leave a dangerous wake behind, though.

[Jayngfet]

I suppose that if Jean grey has TK powers in general, then equal-but-opposite-reactions should make it possible for her to push herself away from the ground- i.e, levitate/fly. (Which raises a problem with the TK-Superman theory, since if his powers can't propagate through the air, how does he fly? And if they do, why can't he use them at a distance?)

For comparison, my initial thought was that if krypton was a planet where intense X-rays and powerful magnetic fields were a primary energy source, he might be able to flying using maglev based off the sun or earth's magnetic fields. Trouble is, that basically makes him Magneto, who can do a bunch of other stuff we don't see in Kal-El's repertoire.

(Also, even the feeblest neutron star has a magnetic field roughly 100 million times stronger than the sun's, such that putting a kryptonian on earth would be significantly harsher than stranding a deep-sea fish in the middle of the atacama desert. I'm... uh, working on that.)

The obvious hole there is that it'd mean that everyone on Krypton could fly all the time, rather than just doing it on earth, which is kind of the point of Superman by now.

[Carry2]

The obvious hole there is that it'd mean that everyone on Krypton could fly all the time, rather than just doing it on earth, which is kind of the point of Superman by now.
Well, depends. If krypton actually was a neutron star, then you'd basically need superpowers in order to get around anywhere, and flight would be nigh-impossible, thanks to the intense gravity and pressure. Though, personally I don't have any great problem with every kryptonian having superpowers, given that I don't expect their civilisation to remotely resemble ours to begin with.

It's kind of like the analogous case of John Carter being transplanted from Earth to Mars, where it turns out the low gravity allows him to do incredible somersaults, and so on. By their standards, his specific adaptations to different environmental conditions constitute a superpower. But nobody on Earth would notice. (The flip side to this, in reality, is that lower Martian gravity has the side-effect of a thinner, less protective atmosphere*, which would be rapidly fatal to John Carter, and so far as we can tell, nearly all terrestrial life.)

Man of Steel actually hints at something loosely resembling this situation, in that Zod adapting to a terrestrial environment is as painful for him as adapting to a kryptonian environment is for Supes. By their respective standards, a desert-dwelling plant and a deep-sea fish both have incredible tolerances, but neither copes well with the specific demands of the other's habitat- which was part of what got me speculating about kryptonian evolution.


* Actually, it might be fairer to blame this on Mars lacking a magnetosphere or regular volcanism, allowing the solar wind to strip away atmospheric gases without being replenished.

[Fjolnir]

Dr Strange Flies via the use of magic and artifacts.

[Darth Credence]

Dr Strange Flies via the use of magic and artifacts.

He uses a magic spell to fly (or his magic cape/cloak). No visible means of propulsion - they literally say he flies by magic, and that is one that Stan Lee wrote. In his rant, he complains that Superman can fly without a visual means of propulsion, which is stupid compared to Iron Man being able to fly. I say that Stan has completely gone off the deep end, because Iron Man's ability to fly is every bit as impossible, and he wrote at least one character that could fly with no visible means of propulsion and specifically said "it's magic".

[TheThan]

Marvel's explanations usually just end up annoying me. "Cyclops' eye beams are inconsistent because his eyes are really windows to a non-Euclidean universe!"
And you use that for shooting lasers at people?


Yeah I never really like the “eye beams from the punch dimension” explanation of Cyclops’s power.


I like this explanation:

Cyclops’s power is “stuck in the ON position” when his eyes are open. When he closes them, it “turns off”, when he opens them it “turns on”. Which means in theory he should be able to control them, but thanks to a bonk on the head and a tiny amount of brain damage (maybe that explains why he’s sucha prick), he can’t.

Now, the ruby quartz in his visor matches the color he sees when his power is turned on (which it always is). Now when he opens his eyes, there’s a tiny delay where he sees everything in color for an instant, which tells his damaged brain to click on his power. The visor simply tricks his brain to “turn off”. When he opens his eyes the visor is right in his face, so in that instant delay, he’s already seeing red, and this tricks his brain into going “oh I’m already firing my beams, better turn that off”. This means that if he was to use his power on a sheet of ruby quartz from say 20 feet, he’d shatter it.

Now I read somewhere, that Cyclops absorbs rays or somesuch from the sun, which is plausible explanation for the “fuel” for his power (don’t know what kind UV maybe (wait wouldn’t that mean he can give people skin cancer?... gotta be something else). It also means that if he’s out of the sun long enough (underground for instance) then his power would run empty and he’d need to recharge. That makes sense when you consider his brother Havoc has a similar capabilities.

Lastly, all this means that Cyclops should be able to control how thick his beams are by simply focusing his eyes on a target. By not focusing on anything he gets a wide beam of destructive force, but by focusing on something his beams should narrow into a beam much like a laser, very accurate and “small” allowing for precision work. i suppose he should be able to regulate how much power he's putting into his blasts.



Ok, done derailing the thread now.

[Jayngfet]

He uses a magic spell to fly (or his magic cape/cloak). No visible means of propulsion - they literally say he flies by magic, and that is one that Stan Lee wrote. In his rant, he complains that Superman can fly without a visual means of propulsion, which is stupid compared to Iron Man being able to fly. I say that Stan has completely gone off the deep end, because Iron Man's ability to fly is every bit as impossible, and he wrote at least one character that could fly with no visible means of propulsion and specifically said "it's magic".

It's not about actually being possible or plausible so much as being believable.

Which I think is the main differece a number of people aren't getting here. Marvel is the company that tries to be believable with it's genetic mutation and stable of super-scientists. DC pretty much never even pretended to care about if you found an explanation realistic. It's all radiation and magic powers and works under points the author feels like making and it's often subject to change or addition whenever whoever is in charge feels like it.

Which is why this is a fools errand. You're trying to explain why a civilization would be populated by people exactly like humans and by coming to earth gain heat vision and freeze breath and can fly and gained these powers because people thought they'd be cool. Even if you somehow managed to explain that it'd only work in a vaccum, considering all the aliens superman alone fights that are also impossible, let along sticking him in a shared universe.

You'll never manage to really get past stage one here because the basic mechanics superman was constructed with and runs on are so vastly divorced from the logic you use to make him the the way you want. I wish you the best of luck doing it and if you can somehow succed I'll be the first to cheer you on, but really I think there are other heroes who need this treatment and would be more receptive to it.

[Selrahc]

He uses a magic spell to fly (or his magic cape/cloak). No visible means of propulsion - they literally say he flies by magic, and that is one that Stan Lee wrote. In his rant, he complains that Superman can fly without a visual means of propulsion, which is stupid compared to Iron Man being able to fly. I say that Stan has completely gone off the deep end, because Iron Man's ability to fly is every bit as impossible, and he wrote at least one character that could fly with no visible means of propulsion and specifically said "it's magic".

Dr. Strange is a magician. He flies with a magic spell.
Iron Man is a technologist. He flies with a gadget.
Magneto is a mutant who controls metal. He flies(initially) by wearing metal on his costume and lifting himself.

Superman is an alien with enhanced strength from the more energetic young sun. He flies by ????

Superman logically, based on his initial premise without bringing in external stuff like general plausibility, should just have superjumping. And he did have superjumping for quite a long time, until someone decided it would be more fun if he could fly. It isn't connected together.

Stan Lee makes a lot of poorly justified statements, but I do think his Marvel creations do have better justification for flying than Superman does. Because Superman only acquired flight through mutation of powerset over time rather than creators intent.

[Nekura]

Red Son came up with a good explanation...

Krypton is actually Earth in the distant future, and Kel-Rl was actually sent back in time.

Of course, this was an alternative universe story.

So in Red Son is there kryptonite? There shouldn’t be unless the broken bits of future earth also traveled back in time somehow.

[Traab]

Dr. Strange is a magician. He flies with a magic spell.
Iron Man is a technologist. He flies with a gadget.
Magneto is a mutant who controls metal. He flies(initially) by wearing metal on his costume and lifting himself.

Superman is an alien with enhanced strength from the more energetic young sun. He flies by ????

Superman logically, based on his initial premise without bringing in external stuff like general plausibility, should just have superjumping. And he did have superjumping for quite a long time, until someone decided it would be more fun if he could fly. It isn't connected together.

Stan Lee makes a lot of poorly justified statements, but I do think his Marvel creations do have better justification for flying than Superman does. Because Superman only acquired flight through mutation of powerset over time rather than creators intent.

Yeah, in all "reality", superman should travel like the hulk. Massive jumps or by walking. But then again, if they kept it that way, it would be a lot like original thor who would twirl his hammer really fast and hurl it, letting him be dragged along by the strap. He crashed into buildings alot when flying bad guys mocked him and swerved. He was a living mortar shell.

[LordChaos13]

Sciency explanation go:
First off this explanation might not make sense in REAL LIFE. All that matters is it makes sense IN-COMIC. TK works in comic because it's rules are defined and we know whats up, FTL travel works in Star Trek cause we know it works.

Kryptonians evolved under a Yellow Sun, they originally came from moving photosynthesizing plants (hence the solar-powered thing)
As they evolved and became civilized their sun began to die, turning into a Red Sun and giving off gradually less power.
Due to this the Kryptonians, who relied on this sun for their energy, began developing a more efficient system of digestion, utilizing more energy from less sunlight and getting valuable nutrients from eating to sustain most/all of their organs during periods of low/no sun (where instead they had reserves during the night they couldnt get enough to sustain 24 hours in less than 12 hours of sun at best). This level of sunlight eventually was enough to passively keep them alive but no more, although some could tap into this to hit harder or perform superhuman feats at the expense of becoming incredibly exhausted and hungry afterwards
When Supes came to Earth (or other Kryptonians visited Yellow-Sun systems since they had FTL) the overabundance of solar energy pushed his photosynthetic abilities into overdrive, filling up more than eons of his predecessors could gain

Basically he went from a battery being filled and depleted at equal rates to one at a 1:1000 ratio, gaining absurd amounts of power in a small amount of time.
Every organ kicked into overdrive due to his immense reserves.
His skin generated more than the normal tiny field it normally did, becoming harder than steel and able to project through solid matter (thus allowing him to hold someone by their fingers or grab the tail of a jet)
His mind and nerves speeding up to move at supersonic speeds and still keep track of things
His muscles strengthening to exert kilotons of pressure per square inch and move fast enough he can run at supersonic speeds
His flight capabilities gained by simply pushing his skin-forcefield away from him, it quickly diffuses through gas leaving no trace after a few centimeters. He basically leans/stands/is pushed by an invisible solid barrier generated by his skin as a protection measure and supercharged

I'm sure there is a way to make it work for heat vision and ice breath.

[Manga Shoggoth]

So in Red Son is there kryptonite? There shouldn’t be unless the broken bits of future earth also traveled back in time somehow.


I don't think they used Kryptonite - at least I don't recall it appearing in the story. Instead...
...At one point Luthor had Superman trapped in a room with the (simulated) light of a red sun, which had the effect of disrupting (if not removing) his powers.

[Morph Bark]

Convergent evolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution) is a theory that explores this, though of course it only investigates Earthly lifeforms. It attempts to explain why a lot of lifeforms have developed highly similar eyes and other senses, for instance.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, in all "reality", superman should travel like the hulk. Massive jumps or by walking. But then again, if they kept it that way, it would be a lot like original thor who would twirl his hammer really fast and hurl it, letting him be dragged along by the strap. He crashed into buildings alot when flying bad guys mocked him and swerved. He was a living mortar shell.

I think he has gotten a lot better since then. His control of wind should be a lot of help manouvering.

[Traab]

I think he has gotten a lot better since then. His control of wind should be a lot of help manouvering.

Heh, I know, like superman, thor has changed over the years and his powers have gotten better. I just loved the mental image of thor practicing this skill of his. /spin spin spin FLING! "I did it! I am flying! By Freyas fantastic flatulence! A BUILDING!" /crash "Ugh, let us try that again." Meanwhile, insurance adjusters across the nation are cheering over their "act of god" clauses.

[Carry2]

Which is why this is a fools errand. You're trying to explain why a civilization would be populated by people exactly like humans and by coming to earth gain heat vision and freeze breath and can fly and gained these powers because people thought they'd be cool. Even if you somehow managed to explain that it'd only work in a vaccum, considering all the aliens superman alone fights that are also impossible, let along sticking him in a shared universe.
Well, the thing is, you could, once upon a time, have made a pretty similar argument about attempts to make Batman realistic. Very little of his gadgetry is actually possible with current-day technology, and he regularly bumps into enemies with paranormal or mad-scientific origins that would be difficult or impossible to rationally explain. Nonetheless, the Nolan trilogy tried to take the basic concept, strip away the most nonsensical elements, and ground it in the physically, economically and politically plausible as far as humanly possible. You do lose something in the process- no poison ivy or clayface or mr. mxyzptlk- but it's arguably more streamlined for it.

(Naturally, this is inordinately more difficult in the case of superman, but I get the sense that Man of Steel was making some half-hearted stab at doing something similar, going by the visual/tonal aesthetic and explanatory monologues. It just didn't do it very well.)

I think the core question here, really, is 'what point are you trying to make'? What kind of theme can you convey, specifically, with Batman? That a sufficiently motivated individual can have a marked impact on society, or that you can violate the letter of the law while preserving it's spirit, or that fear and violence can paradoxically preserve harmony? None of this specifically hinges on having to go toe-to-toe with calendar man, or teaming up with zatanna, or even on ra'as al-ghul being a centuries-old ecoterrorist.

In that same spirit, what kind of points can Superman, as a concept, be used to make? That overwhelming force requires tremendous delicacy*? That culture and environment matter more than biology? That an unyielding example of individual virtue can inspire the masses?

Whatever specific point you're trying to make and how valid it is in objective terms, it's worth examining whether the character-concept's associated baggage- that he must be an alien, and that he must look 100% naturally human, and that he must have powers X/Y/Z, and be vulnerable only to a very rare magic-green-space-rock, and have a secret identity and smalltown history and high-school sweetheart who grows up to be a reporter- are strictly necessary, potentially useful, largely superfluous, or outright counterproductive in conveying such a message. And then throw out whatever doesn't fit.


* I mean, if you really want to say that 'overwhelming force requires tremendous delicacy', then you have to actually show what happens when Kal-El isn't delicate enough. He has to lose control in some way that gets people directly or indirectly hurt. But despite all it's bloviation on this point, Man of Steel never shows Clark Kent suffering as a result of displaying his powers, never putting a bully in a body-cast, and never causing collateral damage when he punches Zod's goon through a crowded diner. Blaargh! Blaargh I say!)

[Darth Credence]

It's not about actually being possible or plausible so much as being believable.

Which I think is the main differece a number of people aren't getting here. Marvel is the company that tries to be believable with it's genetic mutation and stable of super-scientists.

If you think it is more believable that the next stage of human evolution is wildly different mutations that all have super powered benefits than there is an alien whose physiology differs enough that they are super powered, then we will never come to agreement. The Marvel explanations I think are OK are generally similar to DC heroes - Thor is an alien god, like Superman, Iron Man and Lex Luthor or Steel have built super suits, and so on. The mutants are a cop out. Saying that all of these vastly different powers are because the human race is evolving is laughable. If it was "believable", everyone would have the same base power - say Wolverine's healing factor - and would use it differently. That there is suddenly an explosion of vastly different, beneficial mutations makes no sense.


Dr. Strange is a magician. He flies with a magic spell.
Iron Man is a technologist. He flies with a gadget.
Magneto is a mutant who controls metal. He flies(initially) by wearing metal on his costume and lifting himself.

Superman is an alien with enhanced strength from the more energetic young sun. He flies by ????

Superman logically, based on his initial premise without bringing in external stuff like general plausibility, should just have superjumping. And he did have superjumping for quite a long time, until someone decided it would be more fun if he could fly. It isn't connected together.

Stan Lee makes a lot of poorly justified statements, but I do think his Marvel creations do have better justification for flying than Superman does. Because Superman only acquired flight through mutation of powerset over time rather than creators intent.

If you allow magic, how can you not allow that Superman gathers energy from the sun, and can expel that energy from his body to control his movement, resulting in controlled flight? We all radiate energy - we give off heat through our skin. He has a lot more energy, and can control how he gives it off, and hence he flies.

[Carry2]

...If you allow magic, how can you not allow that Superman gathers energy from the sun, and can expel that energy from his body to control his movement, resulting in controlled flight? We all radiate energy - we give off heat through our skin. He has a lot more energy, and can control how he gives it off, and hence he flies.
Well, basically because energy has to be converted into motion in specific ways- radiation pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure) is pretty minute, whereas actual jet-propulsion requires an atmosphere and would tend to incinerate bystanders.

I'd incline to say that there are certain forms of X-Men-type powers that might be plausible if they were deliberate products of genetic engineering. (Beast, for example, and maybe milder versions of Wolverine's health-regeneration. Though I thought that, canonically, a significant chunk of mutants in the setting don't have any particular useful powers?) But I guess it's reasonable to say that Superman's powers aren't enormously wierder than the likes of Storm or Cyclops in terms of conservation-of-energy.


Convergent evolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution) is a theory that explores this, though of course it only investigates Earthly lifeforms. It attempts to explain why a lot of lifeforms have developed highly similar eyes and other senses, for instance.

Kryptonians evolved under a Yellow Sun, they originally came from moving photosynthesizing plants (hence the solar-powered thing.) As they evolved and became civilized their sun began to die, turning into a Red Sun and giving off gradually less power...
When Supes came to Earth (or other Kryptonians visited Yellow-Sun systems since they had FTL) the overabundance of solar energy pushed his photosynthetic abilities into overdrive, filling up more than eons of his predecessors could gain...
That's certainly a more promising vein of speculation- and it is fair to say that our sun produces rather more visible-light radiation than a red giant or white dwarf star- but aside from problems with photosynthetic conversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency), it's doubtful that anything based on organic chemistry can store, release or process energy that efficiently.

And unfortunately, convergent evolution only works when similar environmental conditions select for similar adaptations- whereas the above scenario would optimise for something like a mobile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffid) cheese-plant.

[Fjolnir]

so superman is an Ent?

[AstralFire]

Though I thought that, canonically, a significant chunk of mutants in the setting don't have any particular useful powers?

Sorta. It's kind of an informed trait of the setting, such that when mutants without any useful powers show up, everyone is fairly agog at this. And even then, several of these mutations stretch credulity, like the boy who resembles a bird mascot for a baseball team. And these mutations are all supposed to be the result of one single gene.

I dislike the X-Men for many, many reasons, and generally think basically every other Marvel franchise is light-years beyond them.

To be fair, DC ended up copying this entire nonsense with the "metagene", but I don't believe that any of their A-list heroes or villains actually use that nonsense as their primary source of power. Usually it develops whenever they want to give a more dated gadget character an inherent source of power.

[Darth Credence]

Well, basically because energy has to be converted into motion in specific ways- radiation pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure) is pretty minute, whereas actual jet-propulsion requires an atmosphere and would tend to incinerate bystanders.

I'd incline to say that there are certain forms of X-Men-type powers that might be plausible if they were deliberate products of genetic engineering. (Beast, for example, and maybe milder versions of Wolverine's health-regeneration. Though I thought that, canonically, a significant chunk of mutants in the setting don't have any particular useful powers?) But I guess it's reasonable to say that Superman's powers aren't enormously wierder than the likes of Storm or Cyclops in terms of conservation-of-energy.


In the real world, energy would have to be converted into motion in specific ways. In a world where magic is accepted as one way to convert energy into motion, I don't see an issue with just saying that he expels the energy from his body and the force of that expulsion creates movement. You can replace that with he creates gravity forces which allow him to propel himself if you prefer.

As to whether a large number of mutants don't have useful powers, I don't know, and it is probably beside the point. There are still huge variations in expression based on one gene. It is like saying that I got a gene that made me have red hair, while someone else got the same gene and it made them have a useful second set of arms. And even though there may be people with useless powers, I don't recall many that have traits that are detrimental. And yeah, DC has done the same thing, as AstralFire said.

If you are interested in a different take on the concept, an interesting one can be found in the Wild Card series, edited by George R. R. Martin. It is a shared world anthology, that started with an alien race dumping a mutating chemical on NYC. Most people, like 90%, exposed to the chemical died. Of the survivors, a further 90% pulled the joker card and got a horrible mutation that has made their lives pretty bad. The remainders pulled an Ace and became superheroes. That is a change in their genetics, but not one specific gene - just an overall mutation from the chemical. The overwhelming majority had mutations incompatible with life, which is much more likely than mutations being beneficial.

ETA: And before I forget this, Superman is vulnerable to more than just kryptonite. Magic is a vulnerability - not as deadly as kryptonite, but magic will affect him.

[TheThan]

Sorta. It's kind of an informed trait of the setting, such that when mutants without any useful powers show up, everyone is fairly agog at this. And even then, several of these mutations stretch credulity, like the boy who resembles a bird mascot for a baseball team. And these mutations are all supposed to be the result of one single gene.

I dislike the X-Men for many, many reasons, and generally think basically every other Marvel franchise is light-years beyond them.

To be fair, DC ended up copying this entire nonsense with the "metagene", but I don't believe that any of their A-list heroes or villains actually use that nonsense as their primary source of power. Usually it develops whenever they want to give a more dated gadget character an inherent source of power.

I actually like the mutant gene back-story. Otherwise you have suspiciously convenient origins. How many science accidents can we have without the authorities cracking down? How many alien visitors from another planet can we have without people screaming invasion? Is every rich playboy a masked vigilante ?

With the mutant genes, you don’t have to write a back-story like that to explain your heroes’ power. All you really have to do is go “eh, he’s a mutant, so he’s born with it”. Yeah, these characters have a vast array of powers, that might break someone’s suspension of disbelief, but it’s not like a lot of other origins or super powers can’t break someone’s suspension of disbelief.

Basically I like it because its a nice convenient back story you can use when you either can't think up a plausible one, or you need to create a lot of super heroes in a short time.

[Carry2]

I dislike the X-Men for many, many reasons, and generally think basically every other Marvel franchise is light-years beyond them.
Since I'm pretty fond of the X-Men concept myself, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet again and ask for a little more detail on that. :P

To be fair, DC ended up copying this entire nonsense with the "metagene", but I don't believe that any of their A-list heroes or villains actually use that nonsense as their primary source of power. Usually it develops whenever they want to give a more dated gadget character an inherent source of power.

If you are interested in a different take on the concept, an interesting one can be found in the Wild Card series, edited by George R. R. Martin. It is a shared world anthology, that started with an alien race dumping a mutating chemical on NYC. Most people, like 90%, exposed to the chemical died. Of the survivors, a further 90% pulled the joker card and got a horrible mutation that has made their lives pretty bad. The remainders pulled an Ace and became superheroes. That is a change in their genetics, but not one specific gene - just an overall mutation from the chemical. The overwhelming majority had mutations incompatible with life, which is much more likely than mutations being beneficial.

When I actually sat down to watch the first X-Men films I did sorta find myself wishing they'd give a little more thought to the 'why are these mutations happening?' question. (Going by the 'children of the atom' tagline, nuclear fallout was the original scapegoat, but I dunno what's happened to that.)

I gotta say the idea of a single gene being responsible for all these powers is fairly daft, and certainly you ought to see a lot more non-functional or actively harmful mutations. (What you might have is a gene that increases the probability of mutations in other genes, which I remember there being some real-world evidence for, though I can't find the reference.)

One other thought that occurred to me would be to blame second-generation designer-baby practices, since if you got mutations that way a lot of the less beneficial variants would be culled by embryonic screening. Doesn't really explain psychic powers, though.

[Darth Credence]

Basically I like it because its a nice convenient back story you can use when you either can't think up a plausible one, or you need to create a lot of super heroes in a short time.

This is exactly why I dislike the mutant gene. It seems lazy to me. On one hand, you have detailed back stories that the creator of the comic went to the trouble of making - whether that be an alien planet or an engineer building himself a super suit. On the other you have a mutant gene. Heals quickly? Mutant gene. Telepath? Mutant gene. Controls metal? Mutant gene. Gets old pretty quick.

But, this is the great thing about comic books. There are so many different possibilities, everyone can find something they like, and in the end it doesn't matter if everyone else does or not.


I gotta say the idea of a single gene being responsible for all these powers is fairly daft, and certainly you ought to see a lot more non-functional or actively harmful mutations. (What you might have is a gene that increases the probability of mutations in other genes, which I remember there being some real-world evidence for, though I can't find the reference.)

One other thought that occurred to me would be to blame second-generation designer-baby practices, since if you got mutations that way a lot of the less beneficial variants would be culled by embryonic screening. Doesn't really explain psychic powers, though.

I like both of those thoughts. The gene that causes a higher likelihood of other mutations would be something that could easily cover the existing franchise and be a better explanation than what they currently have. And the designer baby bit could be really interesting, although I don't know that you could fit that in to existing X-Men right now.

[AstralFire]

I actually like the mutant gene back-story.

I'll agree it's fairly convenient for the reasons you brought up. My big problem with it is that the benefit of it as a "fire and forget" backstory doesn't jam well against the "mutants spontaneously rising among us and becoming a coherent subspecies that we must fear" central principle of the X-Men franchise.


Since I'm pretty fond of the X-Men concept myself, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet again and ask for a little more detail on that. :P

Few reasons:

Much like Batman, the X-Men make more sense if they're removed from the wider universe. Fearing mutants specifically with all these alien invasions about, I just have trouble buying.
In general, the majority of X-Men writing has long put me in the mind of a bunch of moody, self-obsessed and oversexed teenagers with superpowers. Virtually every other A-list franchise does a better job of writing mature and interesting characters. With the X-men, it seems like having a flaw is as far as characterization usually gets. :smallconfused:

[Traab]

I'll agree it's fairly convenient for the reasons you brought up. My big problem with it is that the benefit of it as a "fire and forget" backstory doesn't jam well against the "mutants spontaneously rising among us and becoming a coherent subspecies that we must fear" central principle of the X-Men franchise.



Few reasons:

Much like Batman, the X-Men make more sense if they're removed from the wider universe. Fearing mutants specifically with all these alien invasions about, I just have trouble buying.
In general, the majority of X-Men writing has long put me in the mind of a bunch of moody, self-obsessed and oversexed teenagers with superpowers. Virtually every other A-list franchise does a better job of writing mature and interesting characters. With the X-men, it seems like having a flaw is as far as characterization usually gets. :smallconfused:


1) Really? You dont see how random people being born mutants with wildly varying powers could lead to the mutant hate/fear scenario they deal with all the time? Hell, I liked xmen so much because it actually made SENSE to be terrified. Not of all mutants period, but of the potential danger they can be. Most arent all that horrible and many could be handled by conventional police and such, but then you have the massively powerful mutants like magneto or the mystical ones like juggy, and you realize, "holy crap! There is no way in hell we can do anything about these guys without massive property damage and loss of life!"

2) Meh, there is a difference though. Alien invaders are alien invaders, they arent your next door neighbors suddenly growing 6 feet and turning into a walking thermonuclear explosion. Plus, mutants are an every day issue, aliens happens once in awhile. Its like being afraid of hurricanes and gang violence. Hurricanes dont happen constantly, but depending on where you live, there can be a never ending stream of gang violence. So even though gangs arent causing millions in damage, they are a scarier threat to most people.

3) Mostly agree with you. A large portion of the xmen seems to revolve around general hospital levels of love drama and such. Everyone is either falling in love at a distance, dying in the arms of their loved ones, or coming back to life just in time for their old love to be getting married.

[Jayngfet]

1) Really? You dont see how random people being born mutants with wildly varying powers could lead to the mutant hate/fear scenario they deal with all the time? Hell, I liked xmen so much because it actually made SENSE to be terrified. Not of all mutants period, but of the potential danger they can be. Most arent all that horrible and many could be handled by conventional police and such, but then you have the massively powerful mutants like magneto or the mystical ones like juggy, and you realize, "holy crap! There is no way in hell we can do anything about these guys without massive property damage and loss of life!"


The problem is that mistrust is so focused on mutants and nothing else.

I mean what about other metahumans? I mean the Hulk getting angry enough can put New York City in a deadlock and do billions in property damage, and people get powers from accidents and unforeseeable circumstances semi-frequently in the Marvel Universe(probably moreso than DC at this point). By this point the tech level has become as such that literally any scientist can build robots that perfectly mimic human behavior and appearance and can make entire fake communities, and have done such. Even post secret invasion there were still thousands of skrulls screwing around on earth.

I can see the X-Men being the obvious primary targets in terms of general paranoia, but for their paranoia to be it's own thing removed from everything else is what kills it for me. They CAN fit into the regular universe, but the problem is there's an arbitrary enforced divide between Mutant and Non-Mutant with their own parallel fears, visible but never touching each other. Even Cyclops seems to pretty much wash his hands of any mutant powers that come from stuff like radiation instead of the X-Gene at this point.

[Ravens_cry]

If you are going to do a scientifically plausible superhero, I think you should go for something original rather than something pre-existing, especially with someone who is so beyond normal human capabilities as Superman. It just feels awkward and shoehorned in at best, a bunch of technobabble at worst, and really just raises more questions than it answers, like midi-chlorian.
Also, when you start getting scientfiic, it starts to break suspension of disbeleif about other aspects. For example, if Kryptonians evolved in such an extremely non-Earth-like environment, why the heck do they look so human?

[Traab]

The problem is that mistrust is so focused on mutants and nothing else.

I mean what about other metahumans? I mean the Hulk getting angry enough can put New York City in a deadlock and do billions in property damage, and people get powers from accidents and unforeseeable circumstances semi-frequently in the Marvel Universe(probably moreso than DC at this point). By this point the tech level has become as such that literally any scientist can build robots that perfectly mimic human behavior and appearance and can make entire fake communities, and have done such. Even post secret invasion there were still thousands of skrulls screwing around on earth.

I can see the X-Men being the obvious primary targets in terms of general paranoia, but for their paranoia to be it's own thing removed from everything else is what kills it for me. They CAN fit into the regular universe, but the problem is there's an arbitrary enforced divide between Mutant and Non-Mutant with their own parallel fears, visible but never touching each other. Even Cyclops seems to pretty much wash his hands of any mutant powers that come from stuff like radiation instead of the X-Gene at this point.

Im pretty sure everyone is scared of the Hulk. As for other super powered types, I think its basically racism tuned towards mutants. They are born that way. They are different. So we hate them. But wait, some of them can do some scary stuff, so we are afraid of them too! Now, as we are all well aware, there are hate groups for pretty much every ethnicity, religion, and any other label in existence. So mutants would be no different. However, while in the real world the hate groups are mostly relegated to backwater hick loser status, mutants can actually be very very dangerous, so the fear/hate is easier to spread and justify. After all, noone with more than a functioning brain stem thinks black people or gays are going to go on a rampage and obliterate the earth, but mutants? Yeah, a large number have tried. Several more are capable of doing it BY ACCIDENT.

In turn, this actually somewhat justified "us and them" setup has a similar effect on the other side of the divide. Mutants are scared of humans. Normal humans control the government, they are the spokesmen, the senators, the movers and shakers. Sure many of the xmen are capable of obliterating small to mid sized armies if it came down to it, but they cant fight the world, and there is always the fear of another genosha, or mutant registration. Now, that being said, I think they are making a mistake. The xmen should be reaching out to the super powered community of all types. Magic, mutant, accident, experiment, last of an alien race or whatever. However they got the powers, they should all be in it together.

[Jayngfet]

Im pretty sure everyone is scared of the Hulk. As for other super powered types, I think its basically racism tuned towards mutants. They are born that way. They are different. So we hate them. But wait, some of them can do some scary stuff, so we are afraid of them too! Now, as we are all well aware, there are hate groups for pretty much every ethnicity, religion, and any other label in existence. So mutants would be no different. However, while in the real world the hate groups are mostly relegated to backwater hick loser status, mutants can actually be very very dangerous, so the fear/hate is easier to spread and justify. After all, noone with more than a functioning brain stem thinks black people or gays are going to go on a rampage and obliterate the earth, but mutants? Yeah, a large number have tried. Several more are capable of doing it BY ACCIDENT.


Yeah, but the problem is if you don't match up ethnically that's an obvious unavoidable difference. If you're a classic X-Man you're a pretty white dude with easily hidden powers.

Likewise, the whole "rampage by ACCIDENT" has been done by normal mutates pretty much just as frequently. The guy who gets struck by lightning next to radioactive rocks isn't in more or less control than the guy who got powers at puberty.

I mean, you can't even tell the difference unless they tell you. If Spider-Man came out and said he was a mutant the whole time nobody could really shut him down without a series of invasive tests. If Wolverine says he was faking it an he was actually given his powers from like, a totem wolverine spirit, that's also not immediately verifiable without invasive tests.

If a dude in the MU sees a green dude in spandex walk by, he shouldn't have some psychic sixth sense about if he's a mutant. He should hate the guy regardless or not at all.

[Traab]

Yeah, but the problem is if you don't match up ethnically that's an obvious unavoidable difference. If you're a classic X-Man you're a pretty white dude with easily hidden powers.

Likewise, the whole "rampage by ACCIDENT" has been done by normal mutates pretty much just as frequently. The guy who gets struck by lightning next to radioactive rocks isn't in more or less control than the guy who got powers at puberty.

I mean, you can't even tell the difference unless they tell you. If Spider-Man came out and said he was a mutant the whole time nobody could really shut him down without a series of invasive tests. If Wolverine says he was faking it an he was actually given his powers from like, a totem wolverine spirit, that's also not immediately verifiable without invasive tests.

If a dude in the MU sees a green dude in spandex walk by, he shouldn't have some psychic sixth sense about if he's a mutant. He should hate the guy regardless or not at all.

The thing is, the mutant haters are still a minority. They arent as fringe as the kkk or anything, but they dont have control. If they did, the world would already be full of mutant concentration camps and whatnot. So you cant expect to have every normal human that bumps into the thing start muttering about "mutie freaks" or even most of them. As for no dislike, doesnt spiderman constantly have to deal with fluctuating public opinion of him? Yeah a lot of it is due to good old JJ, but in general there are a lot of people afraid of him, or who dislike him, and this is a guy who is constantly seen saving the day. Fighting off everything from purse snatchers to 6 man squads of super powered bad guys.

If his public level of acceptance keeps swinging back and forth, why would you think the xmen, who pretty much do nothing BUT get into super powered rumbles with other mutants all over the place wouldnt get a higher level of hate? All the world ever sees them do is break large portions of public and private property fighting more dangerous mutants. So of course the general acceptance level is going to be lower.

As for why dont other groups of supers that arent mutants get this hate? Because for one thing, most of them are fairly open about who they are and how they got their powers. For another, they arent touting themselves as an entire separate RACE and the next step up on the evolutionary ladder like mutants are. A few groups of science experiments gone wrong is not as easy to justify a world wide hate for. Same for random gods, or magical types. A world wide race, one that looks like it may be replacing yours in time, that you cant do anything to truly stop? Wat scarier and easier to justify hating. Mutants represent change, and a fairly massive change at that. Non powered people are now the neanderthal to mutants homosapien, and that has got to be scary. Science experiments gone wrong dont represent any of that.

[Carry2]

I like both of those thoughts. The gene that causes a higher likelihood of other mutations would be something that could easily cover the existing franchise and be a better explanation than what they currently have. And the designer baby bit could be really interesting, although I don't know that you could fit that in to existing X-Men right now.
Almost certainly not, but I'm glad you like the idea. (And as a bonus, it would finally explain all those curvy women and lantern jaws...)



Much like Batman, the X-Men make more sense if they're removed from the wider universe. Fearing mutants specifically with all these alien invasions about, I just have trouble buying.
In general, the majority of X-Men writing has long put me in the mind of a bunch of moody, self-obsessed and oversexed teenagers with superpowers. Virtually every other A-list franchise does a better job of writing mature and interesting characters. With the X-men, it seems like having a flaw is as far as characterization usually gets. :smallconfused:


I largely agree with the first part (it's generally struck me that Batman is both too squishy and too valuable to send on Justice League assignments, when he'd be much more useful in an R&D, admin or tactical oversight role.) It's also reasonable to point out that if mutants are anywhere near common enough to present a serious social problem then either (A) correcting harmful/non-functional mutations would be THE single most pressing and omnipresent medical crisis in the setting, or (B) every other type of superhero would be outnumbered by mutants a thousand-to-one, making folks like Thor or the Human Torch mild curiosities at best.

I just don't consider that an inherent problem with the concept, in the sense that if you did put it in a separate universe, it works just as well, and I always liked the social-commentary aspect and unified backstory of the X-Men in the same way that I enjoyed the gritty atmosphere and detective-noir aspects of Batman.

I actually haven't followed the regular comic lines in a while, so I can't really comment on the quality of writing these days (though given the bloated explosion of X-titles on the shelves, I could easily believe that there's been a serious drop in quality (http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?PHPSESSID=eec48eae932147e37c3c7c7df1444c 1b&topic=4223.msg41401#msg41401).)

However, while the question of just how exceptional mutants would be in the marvel universe is a perfectly valid topic, I think at this point it might be better served by it's own thread.

[Carry2]

At any rate. On topic:


If you are going to do a scientifically plausible superhero, I think you should go for something original rather than something pre-existing...
...Also, when you start getting scientific, it starts to break suspension of disbeleif about other aspects. For example, if Kryptonians evolved in such an extremely non-Earth-like environment, why the heck do they look so human?
Unless you actually make earth = krypton, I think that bit pretty well needs to be thrown out regardless. But really, this is just rephrasing the problem- i.e, can you create an 'original' superhero that looks relatively plausible while recreating the bulk of superman's abilities and having a reminiscent backstory? I wouldn't claim to have a complete solution to the above problem, but based on discussions so far, I might propose a rough outline.


1. Jor-El and/or Lara actually arrive on Earth themselves, fleeing the whatever-happens-to-krypton. Their ship is damaged in the crash to the point where they can't jump elsewhere, and solar radiation is indigestible to them, giving them at most a few months of life remaining.

2. They don't look much like humans themselves, but deliberately modify Kal-El to do so, up to and including deliberate human-hybrid DNA tailoring*. The human half of him supplies metabolic energy to the kryptonian half, while the kryptonian half provides greatly enhanced strength, endurance and perception as a defensive reflex during moments of stress. (If you wanted, you could include a couple of other semi-kryptonian siblings at this stage.)

3. Jor-El and Lara depart with their crippled ship for the antarctic, so as to leave no evidence of their presence to endanger their progeny, left in the care of the Kents. Kal-El will later discover this ship and convert it into the Fortress of Solitude.

4. It's not strictly essential, but here's an interesting extra twist: Since the human and kryptonian tissues mature at different rates, Supes will only have access to his most rudimentary powers for the first several decades of life. In his later years, he'll face a different problem- his kryptonian tissues will mature to the point where far more advanced powers are available, but their energy demands will proportionately increase, to the point where his human half can't keep up anymore. In other words, either (A) his most advanced powers run the risk of self-destruction, and/or (B) his lifespan is on a strict timer**.

5. The specific question of how he flies or develops laser-vision I'm largely gonna blame on indistinguishable-from-magic alien biology/nanotech. However, I think it certainly helps if kryptonians actually came from on or around something like a quark star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_star), where anti-gravity, x-ray vision, and/or feeding off the solar magnetosphere would be particularly useful, and pretty exotic biology might be feasible.

6. This bit also isn't strictly logically essential, but I think it's important from a thematic perspective: Since Supes is supposed to be about 'showing humanity the way', I think a larger chunk of his escapades need to be concerned with things like deposing corrupt governments, helping asylum seekers, and enforcing international law***. If humanity isn't ready for kryptonian science he should damn well be trying to get them ready. Symbol of Hope, and all that.


* Interesting fact: Among the many nonsensical powers Supes has possessed over the years, shapeshifting was for some reason among the most rapidly rejected.

** I'd liken to this to the situation in Claymore, minus the berserker possession and overwrought hystrionics, but that show was crap. Go watch second-season Teknoman instead. I'm also stealing at will from the Dresden Codak reboot, Starman, and All-Star Superman.

*** The usual objection to Supes getting mixed up in politics is that governments will only trust him as long as he rigidly adheres to a stringent ethical code. I think this hinges on a gross misunderstanding about how most governments work.


EDIT: For anyone interested, I've started (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15511293#post15511293) a new thread for the X-Men/Marvel discussion.

[Raimun]

If you allow magic, how can you not allow that Superman gathers energy from the sun, and can expel that energy from his body to control his movement, resulting in controlled flight? We all radiate energy - we give off heat through our skin. He has a lot more energy, and can control how he gives it off, and hence he flies.

Does Superman have magical powers? I think not.

It's not about comic book superpowers being plausible in real life but in the world of that particular comic book. Internal consistency.

Basically, you need to establish some rules for your fictional world and then follow them. Also, the characters need internal consistency itself.

For example, "It's magic!" is a good explanation for a fictional character, if the rules of magic have been established and it's clear what you can and can't do with them. It's supernatural, that's why Dr. Strange can fly.

Or, to establish that Ironman has the arc reactor that can power all the systems of his suit. So, Ironman can fly because he has the arc reactor. If Ironman flew without his suit, I'd demand a damn good explanation.

Jean Grey has telekinesis. Telekinesis can lift stuff without touching them. Jean Grey knows she can lift cars with her TK, so lifting herself is easy.

And then, Superman. What exactly is the in-universe explanation for his flight? I honestly didn't know until I read the above. The only explanation for Superman's powers I have ever come across before is that he's an alien. From planet krypton.

Remember, I don't know much about DC. I have only watched some of the Superman movies, watched a few episodes of a cartoon when I was a kid and read some comics that were were about Batman but featured Superman too.

[Hawriel]

I actually like the mutant gene back-story. Otherwise you have suspiciously convenient origins. How many science accidents can we have without the authorities cracking down? How many alien visitors from another planet can we have without people screaming invasion? Is every rich playboy a masked vigilante ?

With the mutant genes, you don’t have to write a back-story like that to explain your heroes’ power. All you really have to do is go “eh, he’s a mutant, so he’s born with it”. Yeah, these characters have a vast array of powers, that might break someone’s suspension of disbelief, but it’s not like a lot of other origins or super powers can’t break someone’s suspension of disbelief.

Basically I like it because its a nice convenient back story you can use when you either can't think up a plausible one, or you need to create a lot of super heroes in a short time.

A single mutant gene is rather silly. Reality is much more conducive to being used as a mutant power origin. Mutations happen all the time because of countless reasons. It's just that most of them are either deadly, or silent. Funny enough the cheesiest origin stories of science stuff X happened can be used. It just might take a generation or two before it really shows.


You think Bruce Banner absorbed all of those gamma rays? Nope. Most of them went some were else and may have hit other people.

Fantastic Four created by being stuck in orbit when massive amounts of cosmic rays passed over the earth. Do you really think that much cosmic radiation only hit those four people. Who were still inside Earths protective magnetic field? Nope. Earth got hosed in the stuff.

I do like how Ultimate Marvel explains the majority of it's super heroes. They are all tied to the research done to create Captain America. Most of which was research desperately trying to recreate the original, or find new ways of creating super soldiers.

Then Marvel ruined the Ultimates' universe with Ultimates Vol. 3.

[Carry2]

A single mutant gene is rather silly. Reality is much more conducive to being used as a mutant power origin.
I think we addressed some portion of that subject earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15506655#post15506655) in the thread. (There's also a separate topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15511293#post15511293) for the larger Marvel/X-Men discussion, if you want to take it there.)


And then, Superman. What exactly is the in-universe explanation for his flight? I honestly didn't know until I read the above. The only explanation for Superman's powers I have ever come across before is that he's an alien. From planet krypton.
At this point, I'd probably settle for localised antigravity as the simplest explanation. (That doesn't really explain specific directional thrust, though that's a comparatively trivial technical problem.)

For what it's worth, I did crunch some rough numbers on the energy available from older neutron stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSR_J0108-1431), and it looks like the most efficient way to extract power from them- if you happened to inhabit a companion exoplanet- would be to wrap the planet in induction coils and use the star's rotating magnetic field to generate electricity. Interestingly, this might be how the kryptonians hastened their planet's destruction, since the resistive drag might alter the planet's orbit, tearing it apart under tidal stresses. (You might need an unusual orbit to make this work, but I think the physics are plausible? Maybe warty goblin or someone can help me out there.)

One other question that occured to me was whether stabler forms of exotic matter might be ejected from the X-ray jets at the poles of a pulsar, due to sufficient radiation pressure? Or maybe they'd get caught up in magnetic field lines, like jets of plasma in a solar prominence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_prominence)? The idea being that those might be integrated into kryptonian biochemistry by falling like manna from heaven, even if they didn't live on the star itself.

If kryptonian civilisation or biology were based on this principle, it might also give our hypothetical alt-Zod a more compelling reason to exterminate humanity, if the only way to make the solar system habitable for his species were to convert the sun into a neutron star. (Strictly speaking, you'd need more mass than the sun possesses for the purpose, but strangelet conversion might work for a quark star*.)

I should really discuss main sequence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_sizes_of_stars.jpg) evolution at some point, since the vast majority of red suns are actually much more long-lived than ours would be, but I guess that'll have to wait for another day.


...Our brains emit radio waves, radio waves that correspond well enough with certain thoughts that they have been used to control devices. A species that could pick up these kinds of waves and interpret them could use it as a form of communication, at least within their own species.
What would we call that but telepathy?
Superman: Birthright has a version of Supes that can 'see' the life-aura associated with living creatures, which is part of why he's so reluctant to kill (and a vegetarian.) And strictly speaking, sufficiently detailed x-ray vision, plus sensitivity to electromagnetic fields, would allow you to see an organism's nervous system in action. If you really knew which parts correlated with what memories/concepts/instincts, right down to the cellular and synaptic level, and could track it all simultaneously, then that would effectively be mind-reading. So, technically, there are some versions of superman that by all rights, ought to be able to read minds- it just requires a bunch of other ludicrously-abusable prerequisite powers (hypercognition, nanoscale perception, eidetic memory, etc.)

At which point you've rendered every other superhero obsolete, and his enemies a mild irritant at best. Didn't stop it happening (http://blog.paxholley.net/2011/07/04/1-of-supermans-most-absurd-pre-crisis-super-powers/), though.


* Of course, the most efficient way for any organism to harvest energy, given sufficiently advanced technology, is to have something resembling a polywell reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell) built into your vitals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man). And any species capable of interstellar travel will almost certainly know how to do this. But maybe that's the real reason behind krypton's downfall: they were traditionalist enough that this kind of radical self-modification didn't appeal to them.

[Carry2]

Well, I supposed I'd probably wrap it up there with a few closing remarks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15529306&postcount=316), since most of the other posters seem to have dried up. I would be interested in sketching an outline story for a revised Man of Steel (probably broken up into trilogy form, complete with Luthor/Batman facetime,) but if I get into that much detail I'll probably wind up writing a small screenplay, which is more than anyone has time for.

But anyway. I guess that answers the main questions I had in mind more-or-less to my satisfaction.

[Hawriel]

I think we addressed some portion of that subject earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15506655#post15506655) in the thread. (There's also a separate topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15511293#post15511293) for the larger Marvel/X-Men discussion, if you want to take it there.)


Oh i get it take your comment and GTFO snobbish BS. thanks. Im sorry I came into your thread. Please ignore the fact that i was responding to some one already speaking along those lines in this thread.

[Carry2]

Oh i get it take your comment and GTFO snobbish BS. thanks. Im sorry I came into your thread. Please ignore the fact that i was responding to some one already speaking along those lines in this thread.
Hawriel, I apologise if I've come across as dismissive, and my comment was not specifically intended as a personal reprimand (I certainly have no formal authority in that regard.) However, I have found that thread discussions tend to either meander off-topic to the point where signal is lost in the noise, or go round indefinitely in circles, unless posters catch up with earlier points and take different topics to different threads.

I felt that the specific question of explicating X-Men powers, while certainly in a similar vein, had wandered into a quite different discussion about incoherent sociopolitics within the marvel universe, which was unlikely to yield specific insights about the possibilities and limitations of a scientific treatment of the superman mythos. Maybe you think that's a dumb topic. But discussing it was, at least in theory, the purpose of the thread.

So, I don't know- do you feel that the specific treatment of non-mutant superhero origins in the Ultimate Marvel series might suggest some method of tackling the superman mythos in a similar way? I may have missed something there, so I am open to corrections.