Simultaneous charges

[yougi]

One of my players, who plays a Crusader whose favorite maneuver is Battle Leader's Charge, has started to grow angry at the fact that if he loses initiative and an opponent closes with him in melee, despite the fact that a round lasts 6 seconds and that moves should be simultaneous, he can't activate a charge attack. It's also happened to me, as a player, to be stuck next to a wall instead of being able to charge an opponent and meet them halfway.

So, together, me and my player came up with this set of rules:

- When a creature moves towards its opponent to attack (whether charge or simply move + attack), the target may use its next move action to meet in the middle. On the target's next turn, he decides whether to upgrade his move action to a standard charge action (retroactively) or to make a regular standard action.

- If one of the two chargers has a speed that is over twice its opponent's, he can decide for the meeting point to be anywhere between the halfway point or the 2/3 point.

- The "rounding" of the squares being determined is up to the creature who first declared the charge.

Ex:

An Orc in full plate (Speed: 20') and an Elf Monk (with speed boosting abilities and items, Speed: 45') meet. They yell at each other. They decide to fight, and roll initiative: Elf rolls 16, Orc rolls 19, so Orc goes first. They are 35' apart.

O . . . . . . . E

Orc declares he charges Elf. The Elf has to make the decision to either stand ground, or go towards the Orc: he decides to use his move ability go towards the Orc. Because the Elf's speed is more than twice it's opponent, he can make them meet further than halfway, and put his mini in any square in the underlined zone (between 1/2 and 2/3).

O . . . . . . . E

The Orc then makes his charge attack. The Elf, on his turn, has already used his move action, and only has a standard and a swift action left. He decides to make a charge attack: his standard action is downgraded to a move action (because, retroactively, his move action was changed to a standard), and he makes his charge attack. He can then take a 5ft step away from the Orc (with his move action) and use his swift action to activate one of his miscellaneous items.

What do you guys think? Can you see any way in which this could be abused?

[Crake]

If you're flat footed because you havent acted then you shouldnt be able to do this. If you've already acted, then your last turn represents your 6 seconds of actions up until your next turn, so acting before then (with limited exceptions) is like stealing time from the future. This sort of thing can already be achieved by readying (or delaying) actions, if you don't like people closing the distance, ready a standard action charge to meet them on your previous turn.

[Yora]

The concept of initiative also includes that some combatants are acting faster than the others can react. That's why everyone who didn't get his turn yet is flat footed.

If it happens at later points during the fight, you can also ready an action to start a charge when one of the enemies starts charging towards you.

[Allanimal]

If it happens at later points during the fight, you can also ready an action to start a charge when one of the enemies starts charging towards you.

You can't ready a charge, since it is a full round action and you can only ready a standard action.

I think making this change could have some impacts you aren't taking in to account. What if in your scenario, they started only 15' apart and the elf decides to position his mini 5' away from the Orc. Now the Orc can't make a valid charge.

You'll have to look at all the corner cases like this. flat footed, AOO's.

If a PC can detect a charge and meet it, what stops a PC from detecting a charge and thwarting it (by running away or stepping somewhere that invalidates the charge, like behind an obstacle?)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Just because you can't always use your favorite action is no reason to change the rules. You might as well completely ignore the rules and describe how your players slaughter their enemies freeform.
If your player wants to reduce his class to a single action he'll just have to deal with the fact that sometimes that action is not viable.

That aside, there are plenty of items, feats and spells that can be used to get in a position to perform a charge without changing the rules.

[GreenETC]

You can't ready a charge, since it is a full round action and you can only ready a standard action.
Charging can be done as a standard action, if it's during the surprise round at least, or any other time you can only make a single action.

[Allanimal]

Charging can be done as a standard action, if it's during the surprise round at least, or any other time you can only make a single action.

Yes, but that does not include readying an action.


If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.


So, if you are only allowed a standard action or a move action in your turn, and you choose to ready, then yes, in that case you can do this charge, but this is a rare occurrence, so, in general, you can't ready a charge.



Just because you can't always use your favorite action is no reason to change the rules.

Indeed.

[TuggyNE]

This interacts with flat-footedness very oddly; I'd recommend forbidding characters that are flat-footed from doing this sort of interception (with the possible exception of those that have Combat Reflexes).


He can then take a 5ft step away from the Orc (with his move action) and use his swift action to activate one of his miscellaneous items.

Well, you can't take a 5' step with a move action, and you can't take a 5' step in a round in which you've moved already.

[Fitz10019]

@yougi: that sounds to me like it should be a feat 'meet the charge' -- not a normal combat choice. Alternately...

I've heard of, but never used, microactions. Initiative is calculated the normal way, and then you add 8 microaction points to everyone's score. Let's call them MAs. 8 is just an example number.

When you do something, like move 10 feet, that might use 2 of your MAs, and your score drops. If your new score is lower than someone else's, they get to go now. Whatever they choose to do will use up some of their MAs, and you switch to the new 'next' person. This continues until everyone has used up their 8 MAs (you restore the scores for the next round). The intent of this approach is that each combatant might have 2 or 3 'turns' in a single round so every round is a big mix of people truly sharing the 6 seconds, with actions and reactions (and probably lots of attempts to disrupt others' actions). On the other hand, the guy who only rolled a 2 for initiative might get his whole 8 points uninterrupted at the end of the round.

You'd want to figure out appropriate costs for everyone's various action options, or just say a move action is 3 points (for any distance), a standard action is 4 points, and a swift action is 1 point. I'd probably need a macro or something to keep track of it properly mid-round.

Another houserule I've heard of that is easier to implement is using a d10 for initiative, to reduce the spread and more consistently reward those who've invested in initiative boosters.

These houserules would probably combine well, but again, I'm not speaking from experience.

[Allanimal]

@yougi: that sounds to me like it should be a feat 'meet the charge' -- not a normal combat choice. Alternately...

yeah, that sounds reasonable for a feet. maybe require a prerequisite of combat reflexes or improved initiative or something.


I've heard of, but never used, microactions. Initiative is calculated the normal way, and then you add 8 microaction points to everyone's score. Let's call them MAs. 8 is just an example number.

...snip...



interesting idea, but the bookkeeping to benefit ratio seems low. it may help with player engagement during a round though.



Another houserule I've heard of that is easier to implement is using a d10 for initiative, to reduce the spread and more consistently reward those who've invested in initiative boosters.

this will nearly ensure an 18 dex, improved init char will go before everyone else. all rogues would probably have this to better catch foes flat-footed.

[Kristinn]

I think this house rule is a bad idea. Not because it's necessarily exploitable, but because it is completely out of line with the rules as the function in 3.5.

If you loose initiative you are flat footed. You are not even technically taking part in any battle. Some Orc is charging you all of the sudden, and you still haven't reacted. That's just how the game works.

As for allowing it for characters who are not flat-footed it still breaks the combat system. There are already readied actions, that are powerful enough tools as is. To give characters to take from their future actions, instead of reserving it beforehand, to react to occurrences is just wrong. Lets say the Orc is charging the Con 8 elf wizard. The Fighter can just say: "I meet the Orc's charge", denying the Orc of his action (one-shotting the poor book-worm).

[lsfreak]

Lets say the Orc is charging the Con 8 elf wizard. The Fighter can just say: "I meet the Orc's charge", denying the Orc of his action (one-shotting the poor book-worm).

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though; melee have effectively a single option for actually controlling an opponent (tripping), and some way of doing it, I think, would be a good thing.

Also do notice that OP specifically mentions a situation where neither party is surprised. In game terms, they spent their first round drawing weapons, sizing each other up, and roaring. (Even so, the game's assumption that you either have acted, or are caught before you can act, is absurd - what about duels with countdowns? Surely neither combatant is flat-footed.)

However, I'm not sure I like this solution. I'd be more inclined to have it something like:
Counter-Charge
Counter-charge is an immediate action.

Counter-charging is an action made in response to a creature's movement toward or perpendicular to you. You may not counter-charge a creature moving away from you. You must be aware of the creature's starting location to counter-charge, as well as be aware that they are moving.

This action can be declared when an eligible target approaches within a distance of half your speed + your reach (normally 4 squares) of you. You may immediately move in a straight line to a square from which you threaten them, as if you were making a charge. You take a -2 penalty to your AC and provoke attacks of opportunity as if you'd charged.

If you have blocked your opponent's movement, they have four options:
One is to simply continue their movement, taking into account your new position. This movement may provoke an attack of opportunity from you, as normal.

Second is to end their movement, or complete their action against you (instead of another target, if applicable; for example, finishing a charge attack against you instead of their intended target).

Third is to avoid you and continue the movement as normal. These are Tumble checks, as normal for avoiding attacks of opportunity or moving through occupied squares, but they do not take any penalties for moving more than half-speed.

Fourth is to barrel through you. This is a special Overrun that requires no action, nor does it provoke attacks of opportunity.

No matter the outcome of the counter-charge, your next turn's move action is considered spent, and you are treated as having charged for the purposes of AC, attack bonuses, being eligible for a pounce attack, as so on.

Finally, you may instead ready a counter-charge by spending a move action. Any time between when you spend this move action and the beginning of your next turn, you may take a counter-charge action without using an immediate action, nor sacrificing your next turn's move action.

EDIT: Creatures taking the withdraw action are not eligible to be counter-charged.

[yougi]

So my responses to the various points that were brought up:

Flatfooted: Agreed, and as Tuggyne pointed out, I'll add a "unless you're flatfooted" somewhere in there, and a "if you're aware of the attack". Obviously though, you can still charge at other times than in the first round (even though it's the most obvious one), especially with no-AoO BLC.

One-trick pony should expect limits: Yes, and as an initiator, he does have numerous other tricks. He's simply annoyed (and to be fair, so am I) at this particular hole in the rules.

Against the spirit: Yes. But non-simultaneous movement is one of those things I'm annoyed with in the current system, and this could be a first step. C'mon, during a 6 second round, we can have 20 creatures moving through the same 5' wide doorway and swinging weapons, and no one gets stuck? I mean, yes we go through combat in a turn-based system, and it makes sense with two melee combatants, but if two fighters plan on charging each other, then it makes no sense that only one gets to do it because his initiative is a bit better.

Make it a feat: Not a bad idea, but not what I want to do, because of what I just said.

If they can charge too, why can't they get away? You're right, it's as problematic. But the line must be drawn somewhere, and I'd rather draw it at "chargers meet in the middle" rather than "all movements are simultaneous" which would more or less make melee impossible if both participants disagree.

Fighter blocking charge on Wizard: First, no Wizard has 8 Con, but meh, that's beside the point. However, this action is explicitly limited to the TARGET of the charge. In your example, the Wizard could decide to "counter-charge" the Orc, but not the Fighter.

[TuggyNE]

Fighter blocking charge on Wizard: First, no Wizard has 8 Con, but meh, that's beside the point. However, this action is explicitly limited to the TARGET of the charge. In your example, the Wizard could decide to "counter-charge" the Orc, but not the Fighter.

Hmm. I'd suggest adding a new (Fighter bonus) feat to allow blocking charges made against someone else.

[shortround]

I feel like the feat Cometary Collision from PHB2 would be useful in this conversation. I also feel like there's a set of boots from MiC that lets you interrupt charges without a readied action, and another feat either from Heroes of Battle or Miniatures Handbook. I am away from book, however, so I can't recall details.

[TuggyNE]

I also feel like there's a set of boots from MiC that lets you interrupt charges without a readied action

Steadfast Boots. +4 against being tripped, you always count as having readied an action to set your weapon against a charge, and two-handed piercing weapons do double damage against charges. I think it has like one other feature, but that's pretty good right there.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, tell him to buy steadfast boots and get on with the game. Also, I use anklets of translocation for swift action teleport to charge distance.