Quick question about Paladin leveling.

[MindSculptor]

Say I have lost my Paladin powers because I have slain a non-evil player. Before atoning for my action to regain my Paladin powers, may I dip into another class and still be able to atone and take on more Paladin levels?

[Snowbluff]

Why are you slaying players? :smallconfused:

Complete Adventure has feats that let you level paladin again after multiclassing. I suggest Devoted Tracker. Once you atone, take the feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Say I have lost my Paladin powers because I have slain a non-evil player. Before atoning for my action to regain my Paladin powers, may I dip into another class and still be able to atone and take on more Paladin levels?

Not normally, no. The ex-paladin section of the paladin entry is pretty explicit. Take a level in anything other than paladin and you may no longer gain new paladin levels.

There are ways around this, of course, just like there are ways around everything.

What did you have in mind?

Sidenote: I, too, am more than a bit curious why you slew a non-evil member of your own party.

[ellindsey]

If you slew another player, you should be going to prison IRL. Now, if you slew another character, that's another matter.

[MindSculptor]

During a side quest our group recently defeated a Necromancer that was wearing an evil necklace. One of the rogues in my group (played by a guy who is very new to DnD and seems to take the "roleplaying" aspect of the game WAY to seriously and seems to believe that the game determines how he roleplays and not himself...) looted the necklace and immediately put it on. The necklace starts speaking him and he starts acting like the necklace is taking control of him instead of just taking it off... This forces me to smite his silly ass. Anyway, I smite him to put him down and be sure of it, not to kill him (I was unable to add my smite damage anyways since he isn't evil) but unfortunately I rolled a perfect 8 and completely killed him. We have just finished raising him from the dead and now I have to atone myself for my deeds to regain my paladin powers...

[Gerrtt]

For what it's worth you could have just knocked him out instead. Deal Subdual damage (a -4 penalty on your attack) and you're likely going to sidestep this situation entirely.

Edit:

Also buy one of these: Link! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness)

[PaucaTerrorem]

And then get yerself a Merciful weapon in case something like this happens again.

[Sparkzlight]

You can kill neutral and good characters... In war, perhaps.

But in your situation you can't multiclass, no.

[Sceluvia]

Say I have lost my Paladin powers because I have slain a non-evil player. Before atoning for my action to regain my Paladin powers, may I dip into another class and still be able to atone and take on more Paladin levels?

Atonement should be possible. and unless otherwise stated (have no sources at hand) you should regain you're paladin powers. even when taking levels in other classes. (not sure what ex paladin states).

But you should not be able to get paladin levels afterwards.

Perhaps if you talk to your DM you could retake paladin levels after doing some sort of super epic hard quest. But that should be home-ruled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

During a side quest our group recently defeated a Necromancer that was wearing an evil necklace. One of the rogues in my group (played by a guy who is very new to DnD and seems to take the "roleplaying" aspect of the game WAY to seriously and seems to believe that the game determines how he roleplays and not himself...) looted the necklace and immediately put it on. The necklace starts speaking him and he starts acting like the necklace is taking control of him instead of just taking it off... This forces me to smite his silly ass. Anyway, I smite him to put him down and be sure of it, not to kill him (I was unable to add my smite damage anyways since he isn't evil) but unfortunately I rolled a perfect 8 and completely killed him. We have just finished raising him from the dead and now I have to atone myself for my deeds to regain my paladin powers...

As others have mentioned, non-lethal at a -4 to attack is a good idea in situations like that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on it though.

Like I said, there are ways around the multiclassing restriction. If you'll tell us what you're wanting to take levels in we can probably help.

[AbbaJee]

The ex-paladin section of the paladin entry is pretty explicit. Take a level in anything other than paladin and you may no longer gain new paladin levels.


Huh? You have me scared. There must be a difference here between dnd3.5 and Pathfinder.

My lvl5 paladin just dipped into Oracle. And if this statement turns out to be true for Pathfinder then I'm in trouble. :smalleek:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Huh? You have me scared. There must be a difference here between dnd3.5 and Pathfinder.

My lvl5 paladin just dipped into Oracle. And if this statement turns out to be true for Pathfinder then I'm in trouble. :smalleek:

You never specified PF. A quick look at their SRD shows that they dropped that clause. So as long as you atone, you're fine and can (apparently) multiclass freely whether you're of fallen status or not.

[AbbaJee]

You never specified PF. A quick look at their SRD shows that they dropped that clause. So as long as you atone, you're fine and can (apparently) multiclass freely whether you're of fallen status or not.

I don't know which d20 the OP is playing. But I do thank you for the clarification!

[ArcturusV]

Random thought/note:

If someone is LETTING an evil artifact/intelligent item take control of them, they aren't even putting up a fight against it... they probably can be considered a willing accomplice, thus perfectly safe to kill as a Paladin.

I mean, by example, Krogar the Barbarian Mercenary probably is only Chaotic Neutral. But when he's getting his paycheck from Baron Von Evilguy... it's not like your Paladin would fall for killing him.

It's in that same realm of thinking to me. And you might want to point that out to your DM.

[Spuddles]

Random thought/note:

If someone is LETTING an evil artifact/intelligent item take control of them, they aren't even putting up a fight against it... they probably can be considered a willing accomplice, thus perfectly safe to kill as a Paladin.

I mean, by example, Krogar the Barbarian Mercenary probably is only Chaotic Neutral. But when he's getting his paycheck from Baron Von Evilguy... it's not like your Paladin would fall for killing him.

It's in that same realm of thinking to me. And you might want to point that out to your DM.

Wow, your paladins sound like complete and utter psychopaths.

[CRtwenty]

Wow, your paladins sound like complete and utter psychopaths.

:redcloak:: "Are there any other kind?"

[ArcturusV]

"Paladin, not stupid."

If someone is throwing themselves in league with dark powers, you don't go and give them a flower. You put them down. That's why Paladins get Holy Avengers and Smites. They're supposed to be the mortal armored fist of justice.

If they were actually fighting against the thing, and it's influence? Then you try a shot at saving them and redemption. But the notes there from the OP sounded like this guy basically said "Hey... sounds fun" and had his character jump both eyes open into the thrall of an evil item.

[Spuddles]

"Paladin, not stupid."

If someone is throwing themselves in league with dark powers, you don't go and give them a flower. You put them down. That's why Paladins get Holy Avengers and Smites. They're supposed to be the mortal armored fist of justice.

If they were actually fighting against the thing, and it's influence? Then you try a shot at saving them and redemption. But the notes there from the OP sounded like this guy basically said "Hey... sounds fun" and had his character jump both eyes open into the thrall of an evil item.

I guess if you like to play your paladins like Miko.

[Scow2]

I guess if you like to play your paladins like Miko.
Miko was pretty fine as a Paladin except for her delusions. Had she not been making epic Jump To Conclusions checks, she would have been a great Paladin.

[TuggyNE]

Miko was pretty fine as a Paladin except for her delusions. Had she not been making epic Jump To Conclusions checks, she would have been a great Paladin.

Well, that and she was a little weak on the concept of Good.

[CRtwenty]

Well, that and she was a little weak on the concept of Good.

:miko: : "That sounds exactly like something an Evil person would say... SMITE EVIL!" Slash, Slash, Slash, Slash, Slash

[TuggyNE]

:miko: : "That sounds exactly like something an Evil person would say... SMITE EVIL!" Slash, Slash, Slash, Slash, Slash

"It's funny because it's true!" -:xykon: (For clarity's sake, I do not identify with Xykon; more with Hinjo, really. But it seemed like he would be the right person to say that.)

[Coidzor]

Random thought/note:

If someone is LETTING an evil artifact/intelligent item take control of them, they aren't even putting up a fight against it... they probably can be considered a willing accomplice, thus perfectly safe to kill as a Paladin.

I mean, by example, Krogar the Barbarian Mercenary probably is only Chaotic Neutral. But when he's getting his paycheck from Baron Von Evilguy... it's not like your Paladin would fall for killing him.

It's in that same realm of thinking to me. And you might want to point that out to your DM.

Yeah... I'd have just let the paladin go with a warning on that account, be an indication that a conversation was necessary with the player of the character that got killed at the very least.

[MindSculptor]

I really appreciate all the help this community provides. Thank you to everyone who responded.

When I started my paladin I envisioned a Tanky hard hitter that had Battle Blessing and a hand full of heals and buffs.

Now I think I MIGHT drop a level in Cloistered Cleric and Level out in either Ruby Knight Vindicator or Crusader.

I don't know... I like the way the Crusader works for the tankyness and the self healing and such. We have a full on healer Cleric already so I'm not sure what use I will be for healing support. I don't know... It's just so much to read and understand all the options at this point all at once... There are so many paths but I definitely don't want to become a jack of all trades and a master of none... I feel that taking on Martial Study twice for Martial Spirit stance and Vanguard Strike was a mistake and leveling Paladin to 3rd level when I could have taken Cleric for the Turn attempts was a mistake.

Of course I am still considering Leveling out full 20 Paladin regardless of it's non-optimal condition based on the fact that this is my first DnD game past 2nd level... I just am so afraid of screwing it up and leveling an ugly character.

[Coidzor]

Negotiate with DM for retraining to Crusader? PF has some rules for ready cribbing.

[MindSculptor]

So I have read up on the Ruby Knight Vindicator and I am very interested in it. Although, I can't understand how I can successfully play as a Paladin AND a RKV when I consider Wee Jas' alignment and tendencies... Can I be a Ruby Knight of another Deity? Is Wee Jas not going to expect me to carry out evil acts? Is Necromancy Evil even when reanimation is a mutual agreement? Please, if anyone can answer these questions, I'd love to know what road to take from Paladin level 3 into becoming a RKV/Crusader/Paladin without locking myself down by accident...

[ArcturusV]

Honestly that's a whole bee's hive that you're poking a stick at. I recall about a month ago or so there was some 20 page argument on this board about that very question.

The simple answer though? It shouldn't be a problem. If your really concerned, talk to your DM about it. The one thing that supposedly is gonna getcha as far as making you lose your shiny Paladin Powers, least as I recall from that 20 page discussion, was the fact that Ruby Knight Vindicators are "Assassins". And people point out the Assassin PrC is evil. Thus assassinations are evil.

Then again, the Slayer of Dominel PrC is also an assassin. And is Exalted Good. So Assassination in and of itself isn't evil. It's "Assassination for money", like the Assassin PrC is supposed to be, that is.

Well, also there was some concern that Paladins for some reason couldn't worship a God/dess that wasn't Lawful Good.... but most everyone did not consider that a valid concern.

Your danger as far as becoming Evil, losing your powers, and no longer getting the PrC benefits as you lost your Pre-Reqs, is letting yourself get suckered into the various "Death Knight" stuff that people do. Where they start talking like some fatalistic Russian novelist all the time, obsessed with death.

Then again, Wee Jas isn't the Goddess of Death, it's Death and Magic. Could always just focus more on the "magic" part of your religion, I suppose. Particularly if your Paladin took some ACFs like Mystic Fire Knight.

[MindSculptor]

mmmmm, Maybe just sticking to Crusader and forgetting spell casting would be my best bet... IDK... More reading I suppose...

[T.G. Oskar]

Regarding RKV: the Adaptation section, IIRC, allows you to become a "Knight Vindicator" of another deity, completely bypassing the requirement to worship Wee Jas.

On the other hand: there's no serious hurdle for a Paladin to worship Wee Jas. Her aspect of Death is pretty light: her clerics seek to understand the mysteries of death, and they always insist that when someone's clock is up, they shouldn't go dodging death at every moment. A Jasite paladin would be an effective hunter of undeath (no relation to the Hunter of the Dead PrC), protecting the "sanctity" of death as per the law of the Ruby Sorceress. There's also playing the magical aspect, protecting valuable resources of arcane magic.

Note that Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral, and that means she has Lawful Good clerics under her wing. Those could easily guide a Paladin in its quest. Also, note that only LN clerics are FORCED to accept rebuke undead; LG clerics can easily turn undead, as normal for anyone with good alignment. Even a LE Jasite cleric rarely awakens the dead, and if they do, it's for a purpose (even those clerics who seek to become liches do it for a specific service, and are willing to cease to exist after their service is complete).

Then again, it's the table's decision. Refluffing a Knight Vindicator and removing its "Ruby" aspects shouldn't be a problem.