question...

[luthais]

I'm currently playing a lvl3 warlock in a campaign with lvl cap of 100. I'm going to multiclass into hexblade at some point, but was thinking of taking warmage first. Question is, would it be better to start the next class at somewhere around lv 20, or wait til warlock is maxxed out?

[AuraTwilight]

A level cap of 100?

Might as well just max out your classes then.

[luthais]

I was leaning towards maxxing out, but wasn't entirely sure if the last ten lvls would be worth having. Its a choice between three maxxed classes and a PrC, or five 20th lvl classes. Should probly say that this is only my second campaign, and I am ENORMOUSLY subpar when it comes to optimizing a character.

[AuraTwilight]

With the endgoal of 100 levels, optimization really, really doesn't matter. Things will get incomprehensibly weird and messy long before it even gets to level 40, unless your DM is using all sorts of house rules. Just do what you think is the best plan for the first 20 levels, and then just keep going.

[HalfQuart]

Things will get incomprehensibly weird and messy long before it even gets to level 40, unless your DM is using all sorts of house rules.
Yes, totally.

[buttcyst]

with level cap 100 and you are only level 3, I think you have a few years to plan out your character and as was said earlier, optimization isn't really an issue, that stuff only comes in useful if your cap is less than 20(30). You might also want to flip through the epic level handbook, it gives guidelines for advancing prestige classes beyond their capstone level, as well as for advancing normal classes above 30.

[Emperor Tippy]

If you actually are going to go twenty plus (or making a build at ECL 20+) then you want all of your high save and high AB classes in the front. If you don't have 4 attacks at level 20 then you pretty much never will get them.

But most campaigns get no where near ECL 20.

And building post level 20 is pretty much totally different to pre level 20. The Theuge classes become huge.

If I had to make an ECL 100 build it would probably be as follows without LA buyoff.

Necropolitian Gray Elf Warblade 4/ Martial Monk 16/ Monk 1/ Psion 20 (mostly because I don't really like any of the Psion PrC's)/ Factotum 19 (get enough iterations of Improved Spell Capacity to get 9ths)/ Cosmic Descryer 7/ Swashbuckler 3/ Exemplar 8/ Warlock 2/ Warblade 16/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 2.

Warblade 4 is to get you that crucial 4th attack. Monk 16 is for saves and the speed bonus primarily (although the poison immunity is also nice). You want Martial Monk so that you can take Spring Attack, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, and something else (what I haven't decided) without the prerequisites.

Then we get into potential cheese. If you want the lesser cheese option then go Ur-Priest 3/Wizard 3/ Mystic Theuge 7 (for 10th level Ur-Priest casting and 10th level wizard casting). Follow up with Psion 3 and then Cerebremancer 10 (for 20th level wizard casting and Psion Manifestation). That gives you Arcane, Divine, and Psionic 9's and takes you to ECL 46. Throw on Archmage 4, Mindbender 1, Cosmic Descryer 7, Factotum 19, and then whatever else floats your boat.

The greater cheese method is Psion 20 using Psychic Chiguery to pick up all powers and spells in the entire game at the lowest level that they appear on any list. Follow that up with Factotum 19/Swashbuckler 3/Monk 1 (to become immune to aging penalties so that you can age yourself and then just True Mindswitch yourself into an Advanced Shadesteel Golem body). That should take you to ECL 63. Throw on some Exemplar and anything else that makes a good one level dip (or your Warlock levels would go here) before taking 16 levels of Warblade and finishing off with 2 each of Swordsage and Crusader. Warblade to get dual stances, Swordsage for all of the goodness that it has but especially Balance on the Sky and Crusader again for its goodness but especially for Immortal Fortitude.

----
My build is pretty much pure SAD. You need nothing but Int with Dex next and then Strength followed by Wisdom and Charisma. Use Factotum and Psion to break the action economy into little pieces and kick ass.

[Slipperychicken]

With the endgoal of 100 levels, optimization really, really doesn't matter. Things will get incomprehensibly weird and messy long before it even gets to level 40, unless your DM is using all sorts of house rules. Just do what you think is the best plan for the first 20 levels, and then just keep going.

Levelcap of 100 screams anti-optimized epic play (i.e. big numbers, monk100, etc). I don't think they're playing nearly as hardcore or optimized as we think.

[luthais]

If you actually are going to go twenty plus (or making a build at ECL 20+) then you want all of your high save and high AB classes in the front. If you don't have 4 attacks at level 20 then you pretty much never will get them.

But most campaigns get no where near ECL 20.

And building post level 20 is pretty much totally different to pre level 20. The Theuge classes become huge.

If I had to make an ECL 100 build it would probably be as follows without LA buyoff.

Necropolitian Gray Elf Warblade 4/ Martial Monk 16/ Monk 1/ Psion 20 (mostly because I don't really like any of the Psion PrC's)/ Factotum 19 (get enough iterations of Improved Spell Capacity to get 9ths)/ Cosmic Descryer 7/ Swashbuckler 3/ Exemplar 8/ Warlock 2/ Warblade 16/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 2.

Warblade 4 is to get you that crucial 4th attack. Monk 16 is for saves and the speed bonus primarily (although the poison immunity is also nice). You want Martial Monk so that you can take Spring Attack, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, and something else (what I haven't decided) without the prerequisites.

Then we get into potential cheese. If you want the lesser cheese option then go Ur-Priest 3/Wizard 3/ Mystic Theuge 7 (for 10th level Ur-Priest casting and 10th level wizard casting). Follow up with Psion 3 and then Cerebremancer 10 (for 20th level wizard casting and Psion Manifestation). That gives you Arcane, Divine, and Psionic 9's and takes you to ECL 46. Throw on Archmage 4, Mindbender 1, Cosmic Descryer 7, Factotum 19, and then whatever else floats your boat.

The greater cheese method is Psion 20 using Psychic Chiguery to pick up all powers and spells in the entire game at the lowest level that they appear on any list. Follow that up with Factotum 19/Swashbuckler 3/Monk 1 (to become immune to aging penalties so that you can age yourself and then just True Mindswitch yourself into an Advanced Shadesteel Golem body). That should take you to ECL 63. Throw on some Exemplar and anything else that makes a good one level dip (or your Warlock levels would go here) before taking 16 levels of Warblade and finishing off with 2 each of Swordsage and Crusader. Warblade to get dual stances, Swordsage for all of the goodness that it has but especially Balance on the Sky and Crusader again for its goodness but especially for Immortal Fortitude.

----
My build is pretty much pure SAD. You need nothing but Int with Dex next and then Strength followed by Wisdom and Charisma. Use Factotum and Psion to break the action economy into little pieces and kick ass.

:smalleek:
I think.... my brain... it just popped.

[luthais]

Levelcap of 100 screams anti-optimized epic play (i.e. big numbers, monk100, etc). I don't think they're playing nearly as hardcore or optimized as we think.

Most of the players in this game are newbies, same as me. Not to mention, there are eight players in the group. The DM could be the greatest rules lawyer ever if he wanted to, but he actually likes working with us and making some homebrew stuff that lets us barely dance around some of the more advanced mechanics and such.

[137beth]

From my experience, epic magic items start to overshadow any class features you could get somewhere around level 40, with the exception of epic spells and stuff which allows you to use items. If you are going to level 100, it ultimately won't matter too much what classes you have outside of epic spellcasting...
cross-class ranks in UMD, plus an item to boost UMD, and you can use items as well as the party wizard.
Ultimately, you shouldn't be worrying about optimization by that point. Pick whatever classes seem fun.
DISCLAIMER: I have only played past 50 once, and never got to level 60.

[Emperor Tippy]

Most of the players in this game are newbies, same as me. Not to mention, there are eight players in the group. The DM could be the greatest rules lawyer ever if he wanted to, but he actually likes working with us and making some homebrew stuff that lets us barely dance around some of the more advanced mechanics and such.

Oh, then go Warblade 4/ Decisive Strike Monk 17 (Martial variant if dragon is allowed, Cobra Strike if SRD only) using Kung Fu genius or Carmendine Monk/ Psion 3/ Wizard 3/ Cerebremancer 15/ Factotum 19/Ur-Priest 10/ Exemplar 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 16/ Swordsage 1/ Crusader 1.

That lets you do pretty much whatever you want at any point in time and runs pretty much only off Int.

[137beth]

Oh, then go Warblade 4/ Decisive Strike Monk 17 (Martial variant if dragon is allowed, Cobra Strike if SRD only) using Kung Fu genius or Carmendine Monk/ Psion 3/ Wizard 3/ Cerebremancer 15/ Factotum 19/Ur-Priest 10/ Exemplar 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 16/ Swordsage 1/ Crusader 1.

That lets you do pretty much whatever you want at any point in time and runs pretty much only off Int.

Tippy your idea of "low optimization" never ceases to amuse me:smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

With the endgoal of 100 levels, optimization really, really doesn't matter. Things will get incomprehensibly weird and messy long before it even gets to level 40, unless your DM is using all sorts of house rules. Just do what you think is the best plan for the first 20 levels, and then just keep going.

Fixed that for you.

[Krazzman]

How about Warlock/Warmage/Eldritch Theurge/Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus and so on.

Basically stacking casting classes together. Maybe add a dash of Cleric into this mix?

[Kazyan]

I think you'll get everything you're looking for from Warlock. Warmage is primarily blasting, which is the Warlock's thing (eldritch blast), and Warmage does not pay for itself unless you take it from the beginning of your progression--it won't be that potent until you get to its 9ths, at epic levels. Hexblade does not give you full BAB after 20th level due to the epic progression rules, the spellcasting will mean little, and the familiar can be replicated with the Obtain Familiar feat. As for the curse, there are invocations that apply debuffs in that manner, particularly some of the eldritch essences.

So, I recommend a simpler build: Warlock 100.

Take Eldritch Glaive as an invocation. Be sure to take one Lesser, Greater, and Dark Blast Shape invocation during your early progression. Once you reach level 21, take Eldritch Sculptor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a). You will have a blast using this feat with Eldritch Glaive--it will basically let you attack with your glaive 6 times on a full attack, with +2 to hit and additional reach. If you Use Magic Device a wand of Divine Power during every battle, you can increase your Base Attack Bonus to your character level. This grants you that final iterative attack, from level 16 and up. Takes up an action to use the wand, but I suspect that your group will not be the type that kills everything in the surpise round.

Go nuts with the other Epic Warlock feats. The epic warlock progression gives you epic bonus feats. When I played an epic warlock, I loved using Dark Transient. Shadowmaster is also the bomb. Morpheme Savant and Paragon Visionary are also potentially useful, depending on what roles you want to fill.

You'll get oodles of feats from the epic progression. Just throw out Extra Invocation and Epic Extra Invocation like they're going out of style, collect abilities, and work towards meeting the prereqs for those awesome epic feats.

Since your DM is open to minor homebrewing, I suggest asking for a feat that lets you treat Eldritch Glaive as a weapon for the purposes of things like Power Attack. Then you can PA for massive damage, since the Eldrtich Glaive makes touch attacks and you'll have BAB equal to your character level.

Eventually, like at 60th level, you'll run out of useful invocations to take. At that point, you should know what you want to do next with your progression anyway.

[redfeline]

I'm currently playing a lvl3 warlock in a campaign with lvl cap of 100. I'm going to multiclass into hexblade at some point, but was thinking of taking warmage first. Question is, would it be better to start the next class at somewhere around lv 20, or wait til warlock is maxxed out?

Yes take hexblade now if you are going to.

If you want max attacks for what you are trying I suggest that you take hexblade first to level 15, then go 3 levels of warlock. I suggest after geting your base attack high enough to get 4 attacks taking one level in each other class you wish to push your saves slightly higher.

[Sylthia]

How often will you be leveling? Will it be a dozen levels per session or so? My head hurts just thinking how much work it will be to run a game like that, but as long as you have fun, that's what matters. :smallsmile:

[luthais]

How often will you be leveling? Will it be a dozen levels per session or so? My head hurts just thinking how much work it will be to run a game like that, but as long as you have fun, that's what matters. :smallsmile:

VERY slowly for the lvl cap. We have had about 10 sessions so far, and just hit lvl3 last session.

[Psyren]

VERY slowly for the lvl cap. We have had about 10 sessions so far, and just hit lvl3 last session.

Be sure to come back and let us know what level you made it to on the day Rawhide shuts the forums off :smalltongue:

[Souju]

10 sessions and you're only level 3? yeesh, i wouldn't even start considering what to do past lvl 10 at this point...my current campaign, with exp being rather sparse (since it has to be divided amongst 6 players) is at lvl 5...and our expected cap is lvl 16 0_o

[luthais]

Our last campaign lasted about a year and a half, with the players reaching ecl 20+/-. It's alot of fun to play, but we are really good friends irl as well, and it gives us a chance to socialize since we're kinda spread out. The only problems I had were the last DM would make one battle last for 7 or 8 sessions. Not really meaning to, but he didn't have everything really planned out, kept having to go back and look up feats/spells/creatures/ect.

[luthais]

Be sure to come back and let us know what level you made it to on the day Rawhide shuts the forums off :smalltongue:

He is gonna introduce us to mass combat fairly soon, which will rev up the xp gains. Should make things go a lil faster.