Pathfinder Pun-Pun?

[Ailowynn]

Is there a version of Pun-Pun using only Pathfinder materials?

(And if there isn't? Then I present you with the challenge of making one, Playground)

Just FYI I'm not planning on actually making Pun-Pun, I just want to know. No GMs will scream in terror, and I don't plan on dodging any books.

[grarrrg]

Is there a version of Pun-Pun using only Pathfinder materials?

(And if there isn't? Then I present you with the challenge of making one, Playground)

Just FYI I'm not planning on actually making Pun-Pun, I just want to know. No GMs will scream in terror, and I don't plan on dodging any books.

No Pun-pun.
Nothing really anywhere close either.
Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284612) for more details.

[AuraTwilight]

...That people have found. It's worth remembering that a lot of people who were involved in finding things like Pun-Pun, the Omnificer, and other famous broke-ass tricks never applied the same scrutiny to Pathfinder, and those sorts of threads on Paizo forums are outright banned.

[nedz]

But they're not banned here, or on several other forums, so where are the PF TO tricks ?

[AuraTwilight]

The point I was making is that those people simply don't care anymore; the Pathfinder community as it is now is not the 3.5 community that existed in the late 00's.

[Slipperychicken]

Pun Pun was reliant on Manipulate Form, a horribly-written ability possessed by the Sarrukh. They don't exist in PF, so it shouldn't work. Unless something else has a similar horribly-written ability.

[Togath]

Pun Pun was reliant on Manipulate Form, a horribly-written ability possessed by the Sarrukh. They don't exist in PF, so it shouldn't work. Unless something else has a similar horribly-written ability.

I think there is an ability which scale off itself if you set things up right in PF.. can't remember what it is though..
Combined with a way to redistribute temporary stats/make stat change peppermint, you could achieve a similar stat growth to punpun.

[grarrrg]

so where are the PF TO tricks ?

A: See the link I did above.

B: It hasn't been around long enough > Doesn't have the sheer number of books to pull stuff from yet.

Give it another few years, and it will approach 3.5 craziness (hopefully never exceed 3.5 craziness though).

[Detholusin]

I think i found something really approching of Pun pun.
So I begin with my own character: an aasimelf named Detholusin Amaelthrayam (whatever the level but his was paladin2/sorcerer 4 with magical knack set to sorcerer).

First step: buy a scroll of simulacrum, and a handy haversack (eventually)

Second step: successfully use the scroll to create a simulacrum of an efreet

Step three: ask the efreet to use his three wish to launch two create demi plane spells (so you are safe to do your ascend) and to launch another simulacrum of the original efreet.

Step 4: the next day, ask your efreeti to get you a deck of many things (they even can use their wish to accomplish that goal).

Step 5: once in possession of that deck, put it in your handy haversack and ask your efreeti to launch dimensional anchor on the deck so it can't escape the bag.

step 6: tell your deck you wanna draw 600 cards and tell to your bag you wanna draw the king of diamonds (the sun) EACH time. So you earn something like 600 * 50000 xp about 3 million xp in an hour. So you level up quickly and have basically infinite levels which means infinite feats and so on. (from then, i highly recommend to take these levels in wizard/and or sorcerer first so you can use the spell create demiplane greater to set your own demiplane with timeless and erratic time (one round in material plane equals one year in your demiplane) and eventually the spell time stop (so in your demiplane with timeless trait, you gain infinite rounds to ascend without being interrupted)

If step 6 doesn't function as intended then use your army of efreeti's wishes spell to reroll any draw you made until you draw the sun and there it is, infinite sun card draw!!

Step 7: duck every books and things your dm will surely throws at your head :p

Congrats you have attained the level of a god with pathfinder materials only!!!

[Psyren]

Step 4: the next day, ask your efreeti to get you a deck of many things (they even can use their wish to accomplish that goal).


Unfortunately, PF Wish cannot create or summon items. This part would be out of bounds and result in partial fulfillment.

[Jeraa]

Unfortunately, PF Wish cannot create or summon items. This part would be out of bounds and result in partial fulfillment.

Wishing for items isn't on the safe list of effects, but its still possible.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)

[nedz]

Unfortunately, PF Wish cannot create or summon items. This part would be out of bounds and result in partial fulfillment.

No, but the Efreet could wish to know where one was (emulating any old divination spell) and then go and fetch it. Not guaranteed to work but it might.

[Psyren]

Wishing for items isn't on the safe list of effects, but its still possible.

Right, that's what I meant. Anything is possible with Wish, even in 3.5, but straying from the safe uses becomes a matter of GM adjudication.

[RFLS]

Wishing for items isn't on the safe list of effects, but its still possible.

Yes, it's possible. However, when discussing TO, the DM is assumed to play entirely within RAW, and never grant anything outside the explicit rules to the player. Hence, exceeding the explicit boundaries of wish is generally not accepted as TO.

[Anzyr]

While there is nothing that is on the level of Pun-Pun, Pathfinder is not without a few gamebreaking tricks of its own.

The Paragon - A half-elf oracle with Eldritch heritage (Arcane) and the 3rd level spell Paragon surge gains access to all arcane and divine spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer and Oracle list at the low low cost of a standard (or swift) action. The major advantage of this is all the downtime utility spells you can use such as the Blood Money trick below.

Blood Money - The spell blood money makes wealth by level nonexistent for Wizards spells. It gives you 500 gp of material components per 1 point of STR. It can even be used to get cost free wishes if you can pump your STR up to 51. I'm borrowing a list by Carth to show easy this is to achieve with some notes I've added.

12 Base STR (Oracle can go lower thanks to a +6 Luck bonus to STR from Divine Power)
+10 Form of the Dragon 3
+10 Blood Rage
+2 Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+5 Inherent (You now only need to buy a Manual of Gainful Exercise to get +5 Inherent to all your scores. Note oracles can skip this if they want to save even more money provided they start with a 11 STR.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).

Is this Pun-Pun? No. It is however, incredibly powerful and should be regulated to TO.

[Detholusin]

Well for step 4, the efreeti are allowed to use their wishes to know the exact location of the deck, then use their wishes to fetch it. Come on, what can surpasses an army with 1 million wishes that can respawn daily?? It's only possible to get that if the deck is in your campaign, its true. But pun pun have the same restriction (fetch that candle). So by RAw and common sense, step 4 works.
Of course gods can interfere, as for pun pun. But really are the gods cared for the deck to be used?? Certainly not.

[Cog]

Combined with a way to redistribute temporary stats/make stat change peppermint, you could achieve a similar stat growth to punpun.
Once again proving that power and flavor are not contradictory goals. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

The only way for them to "fetch it" is to summon its current owner, while he is holding it. Transporting items is not in-bounds for PF Wish.

The efreet could go get it, certainly - but without his wishes (can't use them on his own behalf) he's a CR 8 monster going after an artifact.

All this is possible, certainly - but not likely.

[GlorinSteampike]

I think i found something really approching of Pun pun.
So I begin with my own character: an aasimelf named Detholusin Amaelthrayam (whatever the level but his was paladin2/sorcerer 4 with magical knack set to sorcerer).

First step: buy a scroll of simulacrum, and a handy haversack (eventually)

Second step: successfully use the scroll to create a simulacrum of an efreet

Step three: ask the efreet to use his three wish to launch two create demi plane spells (so you are safe to do your ascend) and to launch another simulacrum of the original efreet.

Step 4: the next day, ask your efreeti to get you a deck of many things (they even can use their wish to accomplish that goal).

Step 5: once in possession of that deck, put it in your handy haversack and ask your efreeti to launch dimensional anchor on the deck so it can't escape the bag.

step 6: tell your deck you wanna draw 600 cards and tell to your bag you wanna draw the king of diamonds (the sun) EACH time. So you earn something like 600 * 50000 xp about 3 million xp in an hour. So you level up quickly and have basically infinite levels which means infinite feats and so on. (from then, i highly recommend to take these levels in wizard/and or sorcerer first so you can use the spell create demiplane greater to set your own demiplane with timeless and erratic time (one round in material plane equals one year in your demiplane) and eventually the spell time stop (so in your demiplane with timeless trait, you gain infinite rounds to ascend without being interrupted)

If step 6 doesn't function as intended then use your army of efreeti's wishes spell to reroll any draw you made until you draw the sun and there it is, infinite sun card draw!!

Step 7: duck every books and things your dm will surely throws at your head :p

Congrats you have attained the level of a god with pathfinder materials only!!!

RAW this doesn't work. The magic is conferred upon the user as soon as it's drawn. I don't think you can skip the magics just because its in a different dimension while you reach in to pull them/wait for them to fly out. A void pull would ruin this.
Also, why not just wish for the exp? Or wish every card was the king of diamonds?

[Perseus]

A: See the link I did above.

B: It hasn't been around long enough > Doesn't have the sheer number of books to pull stuff from yet.

Give it another few years, and it will approach 3.5 craziness (hopefully never exceed 3.5 craziness though).

Pshaw, Pathfinder is a completely different system without any of the flaws or core problems of 3.5. There is no way that Pathfinder will ever become anywhere near as crazy as 3.5. SKR is a reasonable man and he the crack team of developers at Paizo are aware of balance issues and nipped them in the bud.

Blue is for sarcasm or being facetious right???

Edited because cyan was hurting my eyes...:smallredface:

[nedz]

Blue is for sarcasm or being facetious right???

Blue is for being ernest

[Karnith]

Blue is for being ernest
Oh, all right then.
http://reelstupid.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/ernest1.jpg

[TuggyNE]

Blue is for being ernest

Now I want someone to parody The Importance of Being Earnest in 3.5 lingo. Pleeeeeaaaase? (I am convinced Oscar Wilde would be greatly amused.)

[137beth]

Pshaw, Pathfinder is a completely different system without any of the flaws or core problems of 3.5. There is no way that Pathfinder will ever become anywhere near as crazy as 3.5. SKR is a reasonable man and he the crack team of developers at Paizo are aware of balance issues and nipped them in the bud.

Blue is for sarcasm or being facetious right???

Edited because cyan was hurting my eyes...:smallredface:

According to SKR's profile on Paizo:

I play RPGs to have fun. I design RPGs so people can have fun playing a roleplaying game. I don't care if a new rule isn't the "optimal choice," or if it is "only for roleplayers," or "only for GMs." There are other playstyles than the one you use, and I have to design for all of them. If you don't think an option is worthwhile to your character, don't take it--that's why we have hundreds of options in the game, some of which will be better or worse for your idea of a character. I don't care about "optimal builds." I don't care about maximizing damage. I do care about having fun.

The game is not a competition between you and the other players. It is not a competition between you and the GM. The game is about getting together with people and having fun in a shared fantasy world.
So actually, he is "aware" of potential/existing balance issues, he just isn't interested in making a perfectly balanced game.
Which can still work--not everyone agrees on the "best" power level, some prefer tier 3, others prefer tier 4, some occasionally go for tier 1-2 for the heck of it, and new DMs with experienced players can do well with tier 5s. So if you design a bunch of classes at every tier, then each group can choose to only use classes from their preferred power level.
Now, if the designers decided "hey, tier 4 is the best one, let's make everything tier 4", cool, the people who prefer tier 4 will be happy, everyone else won't. So SKR is trying to appeal to everyone by having differently powered classes and options.


Now I want someone to parody The Importance of Being Earnest in 3.5 lingo. Pleeeeeaaaase? (I am convinced Oscar Wilde would be greatly amused.)
Gwendolen: I am afraid it is quite a low Spot DC to notice, Cecily, that neither of us is Geased/Quested to be married to any one.
Cecily: It is not a very pleasant Status Condition for a young girl to suddenly find herself in. Is it?
Gwendolen: Let us Word of Recall into the house. They will hardly venture to come after us there.
Cecily: No, men have such low Will Saves against Fear effects, don’t they?

Near the end of act 2...I'm sure I could do better if I spent more than two minutes on it. Or someone else, yea.

[grarrrg]

Oh, all right then.
[spoiler]ERNEST!

You were THIS || close to making me spit soda.
And it probably would have went up my nose too!

[Psyren]

So actually, he is "aware" of potential/existing balance issues, he just isn't interested in making a perfectly balanced game.

Indeed - and as PF fans can attest, many of us aren't interested in playing a perfectly balanced game either.

But back on topic:


RAW this doesn't work. The magic is conferred upon the user as soon as it's drawn. I don't think you can skip the magics just because its in a different dimension while you reach in to pull them/wait for them to fly out. A void pull would ruin this.


Indeed, and what's worse - when you reach your hand into the sack (I don't see how you can command the sack to draw for you), you are now in the same dimension as the deck - or at least, your hand is - so even that slim potential protection is gone.

[Squirrel_Dude]

According to SKR's profile on Paizo:
I would only disagree on his perpective on design in a few areas. While yes the game is not competitive, and indeed about fun, having a bad character can simply make the game unenjoyable. I've been a fighter fighting against a bunch of clerics, or that wizard treating his friend's martial creatures characters as summoned creatures. Neither situation is enjoyable.

Also, it is his job to worry about optimal combinations and powerful builds and maximizing damage. 1. It's part of the metagame and it's probably something you should worry about. 2. Because if you're worried about fun, the more cheese there is, the more annoying that guy is.

We don't need that guy to have more ways to limit the groups fun by being more of a that guy.



But yeah, at the moment there really isn't any way (yet discovered) to create truly unlimited power. Obviously wizards and clerics and druids are just as powerful as ever, but they still have their limits as to what they can do on the battlefield.

[Perseus]

According to SKR's profile on Paizo:

So actually, he is "aware" of potential/existing balance issues, he just isn't interested in making a perfectly balanced game.
Which can still work--not everyone agrees on the "best" power level, some prefer tier 3, others prefer tier 4, some occasionally go for tier 1-2 for the heck of it, and new DMs with experienced players can do well with tier 5s. So if you design a bunch of classes at every tier, then each group can choose to only use classes from their preferred power level.
Now, if the designers decided "hey, tier 4 is the best one, let's make everything tier 4", cool, the people who prefer tier 4 will be happy, everyone else won't. So SKR is trying to appeal to everyone by having differently powered classes and options.


Gwendolen: I am afraid it is quite a low Spot DC to notice, Cecily, that neither of us is Geased/Quested to be married to any one.
Cecily: It is not a very pleasant Status Condition for a young girl to suddenly find herself in. Is it?
Gwendolen: Let us Word of Recall into the house. They will hardly venture to come after us there.
Cecily: No, men have such low Will Saves against Fear effects, don’t they?

Near the end of act 2...I'm sure I could do better if I spent more than two minutes on it. Or someone else, yea.

I actually don't care about balance between the PC classes. I love 2e after all and the wizard to fighter balance was even greater than in 3.5

The balance I was referring to is how each class is with the game.

A Fighter in 3.5 and Pathfinder is so horribly unbalanced that they aren't very useful at higher levels at all, and by high level I mean about level 7 to 9. And to make the Fighter (note: mundane) useful you need to make very specific builds (uber chargers, chain trippers) that really get a bit dull after a while.

The reason the 2e Fighter (Fighting-Maaaaaaaaaan) was *awesome* was because no matter what level, no matter what fight, no matter what challenge were ahead, the fighter could always be of use. Sure he may not finish the fight or even land a single blow, but he kept the party mage safe long enough to be able to cast that fireball or whatever doom spell.

And really it wasn't the mage's class features (spells) that caused the balance factor to come into play, it was rules such as concentration checks to keep spells that ultimately killed the Fighter (though ToB and 4e showed that a Fighter can be useful if you put a tiny bit of effort into it). After a while the attitude about 3.5 mages became more videogamey and players expected to be able to wield unlimited magic power with no draw back.

Which is fine if you like playing casters but if you like playing mundanes... Well tough cookies.

*Note*: I don't believe a word that comes from SKR, or quite a few other RPG developers. Paizo and WoTC both suck and have lied to their customers, but I don't play the game because of them now do I.

To OP: I actually suggest that you never try to do a Pun-Pun at a table (or anything similar). It usually doesn't end well unless it is agreed upon from the get go of the game.

[Detholusin]

Indeed - and as PF fans can attest, many of us aren't interested in playing a perfectly balanced game either.

But back on topic:



Indeed, and what's worse - when you reach your hand into the sack (I don't see how you can command the sack to draw for you), you are now in the same dimension as the deck - or at least, your hand is - so even that slim potential protection is gone.

The handy haversack is only one of the two way. The other one is to draw a card then, if that card isnt accurate (read: if it isn't the Sun), use a wish from one of your million efreeti simulacra, to take another shot instead, what wish allows you by RAW.

[Detholusin]

RAW this doesn't work. The magic is conferred upon the user as soon as it's drawn. I don't think you can skip the magics just because its in a different dimension while you reach in to pull them/wait for them to fly out. A void pull would ruin this.
Also, why not just wish for the exp? Or wish every card was the king of diamonds?

Alas, i cannot wish for that because RAW doesn't allow you too... But the other way quoted up (use wish to take another shot at the draw instead the bad one)still works by RAW

[Detholusin]

The only way for them to "fetch it" is to summon its current owner, while he is holding it. Transporting items is not in-bounds for PF Wish.

The efreet could go get it, certainly - but without his wishes (can't use them on his own behalf) he's a CR 8 monster going after an artifact.

All this is possible, certainly - but not likely.

are you telling me that an army of one million+ efreet, totally loyal to my cause, explicitly said to use their wish for me the appropriate way to retrieve an object, is not able to fetch it easily? You're kidding. Even if I have to tell them to spend their wish, here is a plan: make a simulacrum of a succubus, force the succubus to give ALL the simulacra efreet (who agree by the way) and yourself a profane gift. Now via the succubus, I can order my efreeti army safely far away since, by RAW, the telepathic link between a succubus and the receivers of a profane gift has no distance limit.

[Psyren]

Simulacrum creates a half-strength (5HD) efreet duplicate, with all of its stats and special abilities reduced accordingly. How do you know 5HD Efreet can even still grant wishes? The weakest genie (Jann) are 6HD, and lack the ability.

[Drachasor]

We can avoid ambiguous cheese and go straight to the good cheeses.

Bloody Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money) let's you replace expensive spell components as someone said. It is unclear if you can use this with spells with a casting time longer than 1 round -- the problem is "cast" can mean start to cast or finish casting, so the text isn't clear. We'll assume that you can't use it with longer spells.

Combine with Wish and Limited Wish and you can get almost any effect you want. Limited Wish can be used to make things permanent.

Of course, why bother with that when Fabricate + Bloody Money can literally just Make Money! Or, more precisely, it can make components for any spell you wish to cast. And not just spells, but any sort of components! That means free simulacra, an army of golems, tons of magical items, buffed stats, unlimited rice pudding, etc, etc!

We can ignore Simulacrum cheese. The spell is still insanely good. You get guys who can buff, recharge some staves, heal, teleport, etc, etc.

[TuggyNE]

Gwendolen: I am afraid it is quite a low Spot DC to notice, Cecily, that neither of us is Geased/Quested to be married to any one.
Cecily: It is not a very pleasant Status Condition for a young girl to suddenly find herself in. Is it?
Gwendolen: Let us Word of Recall into the house. They will hardly venture to come after us there.
Cecily: No, men have such low Will Saves against Fear effects, don’t they?

Near the end of act 2...I'm sure I could do better if I spent more than two minutes on it. Or someone else, yea.

Heh. A good start! :smallcool:

[Detholusin]

Simulacrum creates a half-strength (5HD) efreet duplicate, with all of its stats and special abilities reduced accordingly. How do you know 5HD Efreet can even still grant wishes? The weakest genie (Jann) are 6HD, and lack the ability.

do you think a 10hd monster granting 3 wishes a day is even appropriate? I can say no, but by RAW, it is.
By the way, following your logic, a simulacrum of a fish could not breath water, since its a special ability that can be granted via spells... So unless errata'ed, the simulacrumed efreet does grant wishes (why for the sake of god a 5hd creature could not do something that a 10hd creature could do even if it's far from its "power level")?

One more thing: an efreet is not a genie. Saying lesser genies can't cast wishes is like whining for the duergar to have the ability to cast invisibility once per day which other dwarves don't have

[Psyren]

By the way, following your logic, a simulacrum of a fish could not breath water, since its a special ability that can be granted via spells

Not true at all, the aquatic subtype is not a special ability. A simulacrum of an aquatic creature will still be aquatic and thus be able to breathe regardless of HD.



One more thing: an efreet is not a genie.

This is also false. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/genie)

[Drachasor]

The fact the special abilities must be reduced accordingly is pretty much explicitly saying the DM has to figure it out.

[Detholusin]

Not true at all, the aquatic subtype is not a special ability. A simulacrum of an aquatic creature will still be aquatic and thus be able to breathe regardless of HD.


This is also false. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/genie)

Well read the statement I made about duergar and dwarf and replace duergar by efreet, dwarf by genie and invisibility once a day by wish 3 time a day. See? Could you really say a duergar with less HD than normal have not access to invisibility? I really really doubt it. Or else you're intellectually dishonnest and there's nothing I can do about it. Because if you're intellectually honest and conduct that logic for ALL the situation, no offense here, but sir, the spell enervation is kinda gamebreaking in your game :P :" - enervation on that solar.- Success. Result on 1d4: 1. - result: the solar can't use his spell anymore, can't draw his sword properly and so on."
wow what a hell breaking spell!!

Seriously, I'm considering you as a smart person. But just think about all the dumb way your logic can lead and after that we can really talk equally.

[Detholusin]

By the way, any pun-pun or detholusin amaelthrayam builds are and will ALWAYS (be) subject to be rule zeroed.
"Pun pun: I search for the demon pazuzu.
Dm: no such demon exist.
Pun pun: Oki then I buy a candle of invocation.
Dm: you can't find one.
Pun pun, later: I gate in a sarrukh.
Dm: no sarrukh cares about a puny kobold.
Pun pun: I want to be god of the gods!!
Dm: no way you can"

So no build isn't safe of dm interpretation/rule zero. And that's quite normal: we're humans and the entire world is subject of interpretation.

[Psyren]

Well read the statement I made about duergar and dwarf and replace duergar by efreet, dwarf by genie and invisibility once a day by wish 3 time a day. See?

Given that both dwarves and duergar have 1 HD, there is no possible comparison that can be made to this situation.



Seriously, I'm considering you as a smart person. But just think about all the dumb way your logic can lead and after that we can really talk equally.

How charming :P

[Detholusin]

Given that both dwarves and duergar have 1 HD, there is no possible comparison that can be made to this situation.



How charming :P

isn't it?? ^^

All in all, all we have is that any rules is subject to interpretation and I don't even think of the loss with translation. And so all we can do is trying to stick as much as possible to what we believe logic is.

[Psyren]

By the way, any pun-pun or detholusin amaelthrayam builds are and will ALWAYS (be) subject to be rule zeroed.
"Pun pun: I search for the demon pazuzu.
Dm: no such demon exist.
Pun pun: Oki then I buy a candle of invocation.
Dm: you can't find one.
Pun pun, later: I gate in a sarrukh.
Dm: no sarrukh cares about a puny kobold.
Pun pun: I want to be god of the gods!!
Dm: no way you can"

So no build isn't safe of dm interpretation/rule zero. And that's quite normal: we're humans and the entire world is subject of interpretation.

That's not how TO works. TO assumes a DM that permits anything that is unambiguously shown in a sourcebook, but who isn't needed to define campaign-based variables. So Pazuzu, Candles of Invocation, and Sarrukhs all have clear rules regarding how you can acquire and use their abilities.

An efreet simulacrum is less clear. You are instructed to scale down the target's abilities, but not how far, thus it is not clear which abilities they retain and which are lost. Given that Wish is the most powerful ability they possess (highest level and usable 1/day), if any of their abilities are lost then this one is a safe bet to be on the chopping block.

And even if you rule that it works, there is still ambiguity regarding where the Deck is, who currently possesses it, and whether you can get it from them. This ambiguity prevents TO, not because the situation is impossible, but because DM involvement is needed to adjudicate how it plays out.

Basically, if the DM has to make a ruling at some point in the process for the process to continue, and the outcome of the process hinges on that ruling being favorable, it is not TO. This is the same problem with an out-of-bounds Wish - it is not that an out-of-bounds Wish is impossible, the problem is that it relies on a favorable ruling.

[Detholusin]

That's not how TO works. TO assumes a DM that permits anything that is unambiguously shown in a sourcebook, but who isn't needed to define campaign-based variables. So Pazuzu, Candles of Invocation, and Sarrukhs all have clear rules regarding how you can acquire and use their abilities.

An efreet simulacrum is less clear. You are instructed to scale down the target's abilities, but not how far, thus it is not clear which abilities they retain and which are lost. Given that Wish is the most powerful ability they possess (highest level and usable 1/day), if any of their abilities are lost then this one is a safe bet to be on the chopping block.

And even if you rule that it works, there is still ambiguity regarding where the Deck is, who currently possesses it, and whether you can get it from them. This ambiguity prevents TO, not because the situation is impossible, but because DM involvement is needed to adjudicate how it plays out.

Basically, if the DM has to make a ruling at some point in the process for the process to continue, and the outcome of the process hinges on that ruling being favorable, it is not TO. This is the same problem with an out-of-bounds Wish - it is not that an out-of-bounds Wish is impossible, the problem is that it relies on a favorable ruling.

I do can see your point and I partially agree. Partially because as you stated there is a floatment in the rule (basically answering these questions: when, during their evolution, does efreet gain their wishes 3 times a day? Is it a scale ability? And so on) so my way to make the pathfinder pun pun will only be inaccurate once we'll get answers to our questions.
For your deck reflexions, the only thing I can say is that there are many deck of many things (indeed, the rulings says, and I quote "A deck of the many things is usually found in a box or leather pouch. EACH deck contains a number of cards..." so there is a chance that one of the decks has no owner.

[Detholusin]

Can you tell me what "TO" stands for??

[Karnith]

Can you tell me what "TO" stands for??
"Theoretical Optimization." It refers to optimization well beyond what would fly at actual tables, but that is still RAW-legal. Examples of TO builds include Pun-Pun, the Mighty Kobold (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.), the Omniscificer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer), and the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar).

It stands in contrast to PO ("Practical Optimization"), which is specifically optimization meant for use in games.

[Detholusin]

Thank you!! :)