Goblin Wolf Rider

[Snig]

Hey everyone, first time poster here. I'm about to start my first 3.5 campaign and i'm looking for some guidance on my character concept.

I would like to play a Goblin who is accompanied by a wolf/worg that he can ride and that will fight alongside him in combat.

Origanally I came up with a build that included ranger/beastmaster/Halfling outrider (refluffed to goblin outrider). This build progressed my druid level all the way to level 20 and along with the natural bond feat made for a very powerful companion.

However after some consideration this build really seems to steal all the thunder from my goblin and place most of it on the wolf.

I was thinking that a better alternative may be to go fighter and take the wild cohort feat and just pick up my companion/mount that way? This way I could use him as a mount and together the two of us could enter melee combat where we would both be fairly effective.

I've looked at the supermount build and decided that that's not for me.

Some of the questions I still have regarding taking fighter with wild cohort is , am I hurting myself by riding my cohort as a mount? Does this subtract from our effectiveness in combat at all?

Also by the looks of things I am better off sticking with a level 1 druid animal companion as my cohort (riding dog refluffed to wolf) rather than choose from the level 4 druid animal companion list at 7th level, due to the level adjustment I would have to incur?

Anyhow sorry for the longwinded post. Hopefully some of you have the patients and know how to read through this and offer some suggestions and/or advice.

Thanks

[limejuicepowder]

The first thing I thought of was one of the alternate paladins from unearthed arcana, or even just regular paladin (depending on what the alignment of your group is). Normally, focusing on a mount can be limiting since mounts for medium characters are large and thus cannot go a lot of places. However, goblins are small so their mounts are medium, and you don't run in to the same problems nearly as much. In any case, if you want your mount to be useful at all in the mid and upper levels, you need it to be a lot tougher than a bog-standard mount.

What kind of mounted fighter do you want to be? Charging with a lance, swinging a sword while your mount attacks simultaneously, or ranged kiting?

[Snig]

Well first of all Paladin is out of the question for this build, I've already looked at Paladin for the supermount build but it doesn't fit my idea.

I was thinking of making my wild cohort my mount / companion.

I would like to swing my greataxe in combat alongside my wolf, perhaps with some ranged capabilities?

[gurgleflep]

Well first of all Paladin is out of the question for this build, I've already looked at Paladin for the supermount build but it doesn't fit my idea.

I was thinking of making my wild cohort my mount / companion.

I would like to swing my greataxe in combat alongside my wolf, perhaps with some ranged capabilities?

I know you said no paladin, but what about Paladin of Freedom? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) Get your mount and then just take some levels in barbarian with one of it's many alternate class features? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian)
You'd get ride, handle animal, intimidate, rage, some paladin auras and a handful of other goodies.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wild cohort is a perfectly acceptable choice for a mount. Consider a dip or splash of Silvenwood Outrider from the further pages of that particular web expansion. Free action direction of your mount is very nice.

[Snig]

Wild cohort is a perfectly acceptable choice for a mount. Consider a dip or splash of Silvenwood Outrider from the further pages of that particular web expansion. Free action direction of your mount is very nice.

I'm new to 3.5 and still very fuzzy on the mounted rules. Could you explain the benefit of handling and pushing your mount as a free action rather then a standard action? I'm not even sure what it means in combat "Handle or Push" your mount?

Also is the only difference between Silverwood Outriders 1st lvl ability and their 5th lvl ability, being able to preformed the action while mounted?

[Gwendol]

I recommend using a ranger instead, and to take a look at the Stonedeath Assassin PrC (Races of Stone). Why ranger? Because of skills, and the archery style. You plan on being mounted, and while mounted charging may work, you get a whole lot more mileage out of being a mounted archer and closing to melee when opportunity presents itself.
When charging you will want to use a lance, always, and not a greataxe.

[Fouredged Sword]

I was misquoting, the class is Silverwood Outrider. Sp issue.

Ok, animals have a number of tricks they are trained for.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm

There are the basics. Getting an animal to preform a trick that they have already learned is called handling them. This is normaly a move action. The first level of silverwood outrider makes this a free action.

This is awesome, because you basically don't require actions to control your mount within a small set of actions that are useful for combat, like Come, Heel, Stay, and Attack.

To get an animal to preform a trick it DOES NOT KNOW is called pushing the animal. Doing so is normally a standard action, but the first level ability of silverwood outrider allows you to do so as a move action.

This is awesome, because there are situations that push mounts into unfamiliar area and you can't teach a mount every trick. Now you can tell your mount to attack an unnatural enemy and still have your standard action to attack once it gets there.

The 5th level ability allows you to push your mount as a free action, but only when mounted. Basically allowing for perfect control of the animal with zero actions. If you can hit a DC25 handle animal check on a 1 (very possible at higher levels) you can completely ignore the handle animal rules and just tell the DM what your mount does with no regard for the tricks it knows.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, if you could get your DM to allow skirmish from your mount, I'd strongly suggest a swift hunter build based around TWF+quick drawn throwing weapons, switching to a greataxe in melee. This lets you be a sneaky perceptive goblin warrior with a badass wolf mount (there's a feat similar to practiced spellcaster for animal companions), who has several relevant spells, and can do plenty of damage within throwing range (skirmish+FA+TWF).

[Snig]

Ok lots of great ideas. Thanks especially to fouredged sword for the mount explaination.

I'm having some trouble deciding how to best get this idea on paper.

Things I know.

Must be goblin
Have a wolf mount/companion to fight with in battle
Fight with a great axe in melee (mounted or not)
Fight with a composite shortbow at range (mounted or not)

Originally I was going to go ranger 5, beast master 1, wild plains outrider 3. Combined with natural bond this made for a very powerful mount / companion.

Then I discovered the wild cohort feat and the silver wood outrider prc, and thought I may be better off this way, and I could take fighter or barbarian instead (there is a feat that allows your wild cohort share your rage), and not be restricted to classes that advance my animal companion.

[Urpriest]

Why a Greataxe? That's not an especially mount-synergistic weapon.

[Fouredged Sword]

You want a lance. LANCE!

You get double damage on a charge, and a level in barbarian will let you full attack on said charge.

[Snig]

i'm not playing in a fully optimized campainge, I do realize that the lance is a superior weapon for charging (I may still refluff it) but for now the Greataxe fits my character concept.

One of the main reasons I want to take the Wild Plains Outrider is because at level 3 you get to make a full attack as long as your mount takes only a single move action.

Again, Wild Cohort vs Animal Companion.

Animal companion looks stronger but pigeonholes me into classes that progress animal companion / mount levels.

Wild Cohort does look like it has options to make it pretty powerful in its own right, mainly the Silverwood Outrider mentioned by Foredge Sword.

Gah, I can't decide.

Any other opinions you guys can offer to help me realize this concept (Worg Riding Goblin Outrider) would be appreciated. Right now the Ranger with archery style to help with ranged options their great skill points and class skills, plus favored enemy is looking like a solid base, I just need to flush out the rest and find room for some 2h support.

I'm not sure if trying to get this concept done is better with Wild Cohort and another base class such as fighter, barbarian, scout, or even ranger.

Edit: Check out this support for Wild Cohort http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a

[Sr.medusa]

If it was me, I go for fighter or barbarian/fighter and take leadership at 6 with a worg as a cohort. Give some barbarian levels to the worg and make a mount build and you'll be fine.

[Urpriest]

I see two basic options:

A Barbarian build, with some Fighter mixed in for feats. You take Wild Cohort for a wolf or riding dog and Mounted Fury, and you and your mount rage and bite people. Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion lets you full attack on a charge.

A Hexblade or Duskblade build, taking a Worg with Improved Familiar. The Worg's hit points will likely be worse, but it will share your BAB and buff spells.

[Snig]

I see two basic options:

A Barbarian build, with some Fighter mixed in for feats. You take Wild Cohort for a wolf or riding dog and Mounted Fury, and you and your mount rage and bite people. Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion lets you full attack on a charge.

A Hexblade or Duskblade build, taking a Worg with Improved Familiar. The Worg's hit points will likely be worse, but it will share your BAB and buff spells.

So you think I should scrap the ranger class all together?

[karkus]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say Ranger as well. :smalltongue:

At 6th level, his HD advances and he grows to Large size, meaning that most PC Races can ride it as well (not that it matters to you at all anyway, because you're Small to begin with, I'm just throwing it out there).

[Gwendol]

So you think I should scrap the ranger class all together?

No, I still think you will be better off with ranger. Ranger archery is easily enhanced with spells such as arrow mind, hunter's mercy, arrow storm, etc

You are fast moving, and with excellent tracking and scouting abilities, ranger will only enhance that. Pick up Wild Cohort, and an animal companion, maybe the worg cub? You'll have your own little pack to boss around.

You still get to use your greataxe in close combat, and be reasonably good at it, especially since your mount will be there to deal out the hurt as well.

[Snig]

ok so if I took 5 levels of Ranger, 1 level of Beastmaster and 3 levels of Wild plains outrider and the natural bond feat, that seems like a good start.

After this point I am assuming I want to continue progressing my animal companion level. Does anyone have any opinions of where to go from here?

Also when I take my 1st level of beastmaster, do I gain a 2nd pet or does it just enhance my level 4 ranger animal companion?

[Gwendol]

Here is the relevant text concerning the beastmaster AC:
If a beastmaster already has an animal companion from another class, her beastmaster class levels stack with class levels from all other classes that grant an animal companion.

I'd say continue to progress ranger, or pick up swift hunter to dual progress ranger/scout.

[Gerrtt]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say Ranger as well. :smalltongue:

At 6th level, his HD advances and he grows to Large size, meaning that most PC Races can ride it as well (not that it matters to you at all anyway, because you're Small to begin with, I'm just throwing it out there).

As someone who's looked into this recently, the rules do not support your animal companion growing in size as it's HD increases.

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283597).

[Fouredged Sword]

Or you could go the double mounted build and be a duskblade with a wild cohort wolf and a familiar monkey.

Now you ride the wolf and the monkey rides you. You can negate an attack aimed at the wolf with a ride check. The monkey can use it's own dex and YOUR ranks to prevent an attack aimed at you each round.

Give the little guy a riding shield and get the +2 AC from him wielding it even if he lacks proficiency.

[Snig]

Here is the relevant text concerning the beastmaster AC:

I'd say continue to progress ranger, or pick up swift hunter to dual progress ranger/scout.

Ranger/Scout would be a great idea, i'm not sure if my DM will allow skirmish while mounted or not. He said this campaign is going to be "by the books".

Do you guys see any reason to to go Fighter/Barb/Wild Plains Outrider with a wild cohort instead of Ranger/Beastmaster/Wild Plains Outrider?

I'm pretty sure I can get most of what I want out of the Ranger base, including better skills and some free archery feats. I would lose out on extra feats and the ability for me and my cohort to rage though if I don't got fighter/barb.

[Gwendol]

I've DM'd a couple of small mounted characters built for melee. They always worked better at range. You have been given a couple of solid options, just choose whatever fits your idea the best.

[Fouredged Sword]

Barbarian gets you a full attack at the end of a charge. Trade fast movement for the pounce ACF. That is golden on a mounted build

[Sparkzlight]

Don't forget paladins and their mount bonding.

Only if you want to play a lawful good goblin, though. :P

EDIT: It looks like you don't want to play a paladin.

In that case: I say barbarian or ranger.

Isn't there a cavalier prestige class? Very useful.

[Gwendol]

Barbarian gets you a full attack at the end of a charge. Trade fast movement for the pounce ACF. That is golden on a mounted build

Just make sure the DM allows it first since after all it is the mount that charges.

[Snig]

Thanks guys you've been a great help.

I'll try and post the full build once i've decided how I want to do this.

Thanks again.

[Snig]

Ok I think I've come up with a decent build. Hopefully this build will allow me to do well at ranged and melee combat, all while being mounted on a wolf who will contribute a lot to combat.

1. 1 Ranger - Power Attack, (flaw meager fortitude for Skill Focus (Handle Animal)
2. 1 Ranger / 1 Barbarian
3. 2 Ranger / 1 Barbarian - Archery Style, Mounted Combat
4. 3 Ranger / 1 Barbarian
5. 4 Ranger / 1 Barbarian
6. 4 Ranger / 1 Barbarian / 1 Beastmaster - Natural Bond
7. 4 Ranger / 1 Barbarian / 1 Beastmaster / 1 Wild Plains Outrider
8. 4 Ranger / 1 Barbarian / 1 Beastmaster / 2 Wild Plains Outrider
9. 4 Ranger / 1 Barbarian / 1 Beastmaster / 3 Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery
10. 5 Ranger / 1 Barbarian / 1 Beastmaster / 1 Wild Plains Outrider

I thought that 1 dip in Barbarian would be great for the rage, not to mention the hitpoints and skill synergy with this build.

After level 10 i'm not sure if I should continue on with ranger, but I would like to keep a class that progresses my druid level (to keep my wolf growing stronger).

Let me know what you think guys. Any ideas regarding feats, or other classes would be helpful.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, since you're not getting optimal use out of fast movement, maybe you should consider getting a different barbarian totem.

[Snig]

Yea that might be a good idea. Fast movement does seem kind of wasted.

Do you have any suggestions? I'm assuming that 1 level in barbarian isn't a bad thing?

[Unusual Muse]

If you want to do any decent amount of archery, you're going to want to get Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot in there somewhere. Take 2 Flaws if you can.

EDIT: Archery really is your best bet for combat; as a wolf-rider you'll have really fast movement, and as a little guy you're probably better off not frontlining anyway (getting grappled, e.g.). Plus, it's really hard to do three things well (melee, archery, and mounted) with a limited number of feat slots. Don't let that discourage you, though, if you really like the flavor of the character/build; it's not always about effectiveness.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, ape gives you a climb speed, and bear gives you Toughness (which most DMs will switch to Improved Toughness, probably).