3.5 Class Creation Help- Mage Killer

[Slayer Lord]

I've been working on a custom setting for some friends based around some fantasy stories I've written. My attempts at custom classes in the past have been...unbalanced at best, and I would be appreciative of advice.

The class is a warrior type based somewhat off of the Myrmidon class from the Fire Emblem game series: Lightly armored, fast, and agile. The myrmidons in this setting study ki to learn how to evade or neutralize a mage's spells, flop up Concentration checks, and at high levels neutralize their spells like in OotS #886. Where would be a good place to start with this?

[mabriss lethe]

My first thought would be to use a warblade as the base class and instead of homebrewing an entire class, homebrew a new martial discipline that focuses on anti-caster tactics.

Edit to add: Diamond mind and Ironheart give you some basic defenses that will help build a mage killer, and all initiator classes benefit from hit and run tactics, since most maneuvers are standard actions.

As for the meat of the discipline (and this is purely off the top of my head) I'd say make its key skill be spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). Include stances that that counter miss chances, or possibly grant SR based on key skill ranks (a la Flame's Blessing. Have strikes that act as dispel effects, possibly building up to an Anti-Magic Field effect as a higher level maneuver.

[Emperor Tippy]

The first thing you need to state is what type and level of mages you want to kill.

The kind of class balanced for killing high op mages is going to be horribly overpowered against lower op mages.

[TheDarkDM]

The Mage Slayer feat from Complete Arcane coupled with the Occult Slayer PRC in Complete Warrior seem to accomplish this well enough. Throw it onto a Warblade chassis and refluff maneuvers into ki abilities and you're probably good to go.

[Stux]

I was working on a similar concept for a homebrew fighter variant a while back. Ended up ditching it as the campaign I was designing went in a different direction.

The basic idea was that the class could hit spells out of the air, much like an attack of opportunity. They had to use a magic weapon to do this (for fluff reasons) but it could be any magic weapon. Spells had an effective AC based on their DC, and if you beat the AC then the spell dispersed harmlessly.

An advanced version of this ability was acquired at a higher level which allowed the class to deflect the spell on to another target within a certain range.

They also had a class feature which allowed them to use any magical weapon to kind of make a sunder attempt not on an item possessed by the target, but on a spell that was in affect on the target - essentially having the effect of a targeted dispel.

I really liked the ideas, but never got far enough in to it to tidy up the rule mechanics.

[DMVerdandi]

I've been working on a custom setting for some friends based around some fantasy stories I've written. My attempts at custom classes in the past have been...unbalanced at best, and I would be appreciative of advice.

The class is a warrior type based somewhat off of the Myrmidon class from the Fire Emblem game series: Lightly armored, fast, and agile. The myrmidons in this setting study ki to learn how to evade or neutralize a mage's spells, flop up Concentration checks, and at high levels neutralize their spells like in OotS #886. Where would be a good place to start with this?

Well, Mabriss has a good idea to start of using the warblade. Creating an anti-magic school could be very lucrative. enforcing status effects like blindness and deafness, as well as doing mental ability damage could be a strong focus for making such a thing happen. Stances could give benefits like blindsense, and give weapon enchantments like ghost striking, and dispelling.
Boosts could focus on enhancing elemental resistances, granting SR, and things like that.
The other schools that this one could work with are diamond mind, Iron heart, and shadow hand.

As far as class abilities, I would drop ALL of the warblade abilities. As a variant, this could be just an alternate way of doing things. Useful abilites for this "dread fighter"...

1. Monk's speed.
2. pounce
3.fighter bonus feats.
4.evasion/improved
5.Uncanny Dodge
6.mage slayer feat.

As far as skills and proficiencies, I would give them all skills as class skills.
Proficient and simple and martial, proficient in light armor.

Having the mage slayer also automatically adds something of a handicap to the class, which makes it hard for casting. That is a good thing. Keep it away from casting.



Alternatively, you could model the class on a binder, warlock, or incarnum classes. Coming up with an incarnum version would be VERY interesting.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The basic idea was that the class could hit spells out of the air, much like an attack of opportunity. They had to use a magic weapon to do this (for fluff reasons) but it could be any magic weapon. Spells had an effective AC based on their DC, and if you beat the AC then the spell dispersed harmlessly.

There's a Warblade build around that does something similar though a combination of IHS and the three save replacers. There's a ring that lets you substitute a Perform check for a Concentration check, and Perform (Weapon Drill) is a valid skill. Fireball? SLICE. Domination? SLICE. Disintegrate? SLICE.

Pretty thematic, actually.

[Randomguy]

You'll want:

1. An ability score to touch AC while in light armour.
2. The same ability score to saving throws.
3. Spell resistance (that only works against non beneficial spells, don't make raising/lowering it an issue).
4. Utility in the form of either Maneuvers or soulmelds. (Stuff like teleportation will be key, as well as stuff like Thicket of Blades). Possibly a ki point system like the Ninja, but better.
5. Possibly Evasion and Mettle.
6. The Mage Slayer feats as bonus feats.
7. Some sort of resistance to disjunction at higher levels, with possibly dispel resistance for items used at lower levels.
8. Mind blank.

Look through existing mage slaying classes like the Witch Slayer and Occult Hunter for inspiration.

[Stux]

There's a Warblade build around that does something similar though a combination of IHS and the three save replacers. There's a ring that lets you substitute a Perform check for a Concentration check, and Perform (Weapon Drill) is a valid skill. Fireball? SLICE. Domination? SLICE. Disintegrate? SLICE.

Pretty thematic, actually.

Very nice!

How does that work out of interest? IHS is only for spells with a duration, and can only be used on your turn (standard action). I assume I am missing something massive here that lets you deal with fireballs and disintegrates!

[Randomguy]

Very nice!

How does that work out of interest? IHS is only for spells with a duration, and can only be used on your turn (standard action). I assume I am missing something massive here that lets you deal with fireballs and disintegrates!

That's from Mind over Body, Moment of Perfect Mind and one similar maneuver that lets you swap a saving throw with a concentration check.

[georgie_leech]

Very nice!

How does that work out of interest? IHS is only for spells with a duration, and can only be used on your turn (standard action). I assume I am missing something massive here that lets you deal with fireballs and disintegrates!

IHS isn't actually a part of the spell-slicing. You can find a quick description of the trick here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3)

[Souju]

you could try cribbing some of the feats/classes from Pathfinder. There's quite a few anti-mage fighter feats from there.

[Stux]

IHS isn't actually a part of the spell-slicing. You can find a quick description of the trick here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3)

Ah, so basically it only does anything against spells that give a save, and anything with a negative effect even if you make the save still applies. Fireballs still do half damage if you successfully slice them. Plus you need to have the relevant manuever available to use.

Still a very neat trick, and definitely something you could easily adapt in to a homebrew class in itself!

[Alienist]

Monk + Eversmoking bottle = Job done

[Waker]

Ah, so basically it only does anything against spells that give a save, and anything with a negative effect even if you make the save still applies. Fireballs still do half damage if you successfully slice them. Plus you need to have the relevant manuever available to use.

Still a very neat trick, and definitely something you could easily adapt in to a homebrew class in itself!

Well, to get around the reduced effects, just dip a class like Rogue for Evasion and Pious Templar for Mettle. Now if something has a reduced effect for a successful save, you outright ignore it.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Witch Slayer/Occult Slayer build I came up with a while ago. It can be an okay "Mage Killer".


1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Hunter can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.


Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

[Kuulvheysoon]

IHS isn't actually a part of the spell-slicing. You can find a quick description of the trick here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3)

I tend to use HS as backup, in case the effect is something that doesn't offer a save (like entangling ectoplasm or the Sun)

[Cheiromancer]

I think you'd have to homebrew something that counters the mage's ability to escape. They might have contingent spells, quickened dimension doors, whatever- if you are a threat, the mage will try to get away.

Some kind of neat tumble ability to follow them through a dimensional rift- that might do. Or maybe key it off grapple. An ability that slows down their casting would be nice; that makes swift spells move equivalent or something. So that they provoke AoO's and you get a chance to prevent them.

You can have all the anti-magic defenses you want, but you still have to kill the mage to be a mage killer, and that means getting close and limiting their mobility.

[mabriss lethe]

I think you'd have to homebrew something that counters the mage's ability to escape. They might have contingent spells, quickened dimension doors, whatever- if you are a threat, the mage will try to get away.

Some kind of neat tumble ability to follow them through a dimensional rift- that might do. Or maybe key it off grapple. An ability that slows down their casting would be nice; that makes swift spells move equivalent or something. So that they provoke AoO's and you get a chance to prevent them.

You can have all the anti-magic defenses you want, but you still have to kill the mage to be a mage killer, and that means getting close and limiting their mobility.

Hmm. That might be a decent mid level stance for a theoretical Anti magic martial discipline. Call it something like Aura of Stagnant Dwoemer. It could go something like this (after proper formatting):

Any spells cast withing 60 feet of the initiator find their casting time slowed by one step. Immediate spells can only be cast as swift actions, Swift spells are cast as move actions, move action spells (what few there are) become standard actions, standard action becomes full round. full round and longer spells require double casting time. Casters in the area of effect are aware of the condition.

[Prime32]

I think you'd have to homebrew something that counters the mage's ability to escape. They might have contingent spells, quickened dimension doors, whatever- if you are a threat, the mage will try to get away.This. Contingent spells are huge. Give them the ability to act without triggering contingencies (and divination immunity along the lines of the Vecna-blooded template), and even the most prepared wizard has reason to be afraid.

An at-will (Su) dispelling touch would be useful too, especially if it can be channeled through weapons. Even if it could only dispel one spell per use (compared to regular dispels which let you choose between "dispel one effect from everyone in the area" or "dispel everything from one target") it would be a big help when fighting summoned monsters, for getting past magical defences, or for use as a counterspell.