pathfinder tiers?

[geekintheground]

is there an "official" tier system/list for pathfinder like there is for 3.5? if so, where can i find it?

[Rubik]

is there an "official" tier system/list for pathfinder like there is for 3.5? if so, where can i find it?According to the people who designed Pathfinder, everything is perfectly equal, from the wizard to the monk.

Of course, they made wizards stronger and monks still suck, but they suck less now!

Except when they don't. And monks still don't get nice things.

[geekintheground]

isnt that what the people who made 3.5 said about their classes?

[137beth]

Most classes are the same tier they were in 3.5--
almost all classes got at least a little better, with the exception of the druid, which got nerfed (it is still tier 1).
Paladin moved up to tier 4...that's the biggest change within core. Fighter now may be tier 4, though it is worse than the paladin. Many classes did get significant boosts that were not enough to move up a tier (I'm looking at you, sorcerer).

[137beth]

isnt that what the people who made 3.5 said about their classes?

Yes, it is.

[kardar233]

A human sorcerer with the Favoured Class bonus can get enough spells to be very nearly T1. A half-elf sorcerer can get to the top of T1 with use of Paragon Surge->Expanded Arcana.

I'm not sure that I agree that the PF Paladin makes T4. However, that's influenced by my opinion that the PF Paladin is actually inferior to the 3.5 one due to loss of the excellent splatbook support.

Summoner and Oracle are T2.
Magus and Inquisitor are T3.
Bard has been gutted enough that I'd say it drops to T4, but that's just my opinion.
The Rogue is low T4 and may even drop to T5 depending on your playgroup. Ninja is better.
The Monk remains T5 excepting optimal use of Qinggong (usually with Hungry Ghost), in which case it makes T4 and has the possibility of making T3.
Fighter loses Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher so it loses the possibility of making T4, and loss of some of the best 3.5 fighter feats means it slips down deeper into T5.
Don't know what's changed with the Ranger.
The Alchemist is T3 or T4, I don't recall.
Gunslinger is either T4 or T5.


According to the people who designed Pathfinder, everything is perfectly equal, from the wizard to the monk.

Except Monks are actually too powerful, so Paizo had to make sure they couldn't take Improved Natural Attack so they didn't overshadow the Fighter and Barbarian.

No bluetext because this is actually a thing that was said.

[137beth]

A human sorcerer with the Favoured Class bonus can get enough spells to be very nearly T1. A half-elf sorcerer can get to the top of T1 with use of Paragon Surge->Expanded Arcana.

I'm not sure that I agree that the PF Paladin makes T4. However, that's influenced by my opinion that the PF Paladin is actually inferior to the 3.5 one due to loss of the excellent splatbook support.

Summoner and Oracle are T2.
Magus and Inquisitor are T3.
Bard has been gutted enough that I'd say it drops to T4, but that's just my opinion.
The Rogue is low T4 and may even drop to T5 depending on your playgroup. Ninja is better.
The Monk remains T5 excepting optimal use of Qinggong (usually with Hungry Ghost), in which case it makes T4 and has the possibility of making T3.
Fighter loses Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher so it loses the possibility of making T4, and loss of some of the best 3.5 fighter feats means it slips down deeper into T5.
Don't know what's changed with the Ranger.
The Alchemist is T3 or T4, I don't recall.
Gunslinger is either T4 or T5.
I don't think it makes any sense to compare all-books 3.5 to core-only PF. Especially when you consider the facts that
1. People are more likely to have access to PF splats than 3.5 splats, since PF has its crunch online for free, and
2. You can just as easily use 3.5 splats in a pathfinder game.
If the fighter "lost" some feats from 3.5 to PF, that isn't because you switched to PF, it is because you decided to stop allowing certain feats/splatbooks. The fighter DOES suffer from the changes to combat maneuvers, though.
I'd say that the magus is on the upper end of tier 3...
Witch is tier 1 (duh).

[grarrrg]

Summoner and Oracle are T2.

Summoner is arguably only T3 (top of T3 mind you).
His Beatstick classfeature is still more-or-less just a Beatstick.
His spell slots are those of a "max 6th level" caster.
And while he gets a few 'discounted' spells on his list, they are still by and large only Summoning and Buff focused.


Gunslinger is either T4 or T5.
Gunslinger is wherever you decide Fighter goes.

[Amnestic]

I don't think it makes any sense to compare all-books 3.5 to core-only PF.

o.O Who's talking about core-only PF? That post you quoted mentioned the Qinggong monk which I'm pretty sure isn't 'core'.

And regardless, it is fair. The mistakes that 3.5 made have been known for many, many years. That Pathfinder didn't choose to correct them early in the development cycle is most definitely a problem that PF has. It is exactly fair to point out that they didn't do enough to help the fighter, rogue or monk.

[137beth]

o.O Who's talking about core-only PF? That post you quoted mentioned the Qinggong monk which I'm pretty sure isn't 'core'.

And regardless, it is fair. The mistakes that 3.5 made have been known for many, many years. That Pathfinder didn't choose to correct them early in the development cycle is most definitely a problem that PF has. It is exactly fair to point out that they didn't do enough to help the fighter, rogue or monk.

The post I quoted claimed that the fighter was nerfed by "losing" feats in certain splat books. I do not understand this desire to allow certain books in a 3.5 game but ban them in a PF game. That isn't a nerf resulting from switching from 3.5 to pf, it is a nerf resulting from different DMing policies. For that matter, when the heck did I say anything about
It is exactly fair to point out that they didn't do enough to help the fighter, rogue or monk.? I don't see anything remotely like that in my post.

[Snowbluff]

Summoner is arguably only T3 (top of T3 mind you).
His Beatstick classfeature is still more-or-less just a Beatstick.
His spell slots are those of a "max 6th level" caster.
And while he gets a few 'discounted' spells on his list, they are still by and large only Summoning and Buff focused.


They get Gate, bro. Full summoning is pretty sick by itself, but then you add on the other spells and goodies. Simulacrum is a spell that T3 don't have access to as well.

[Chained Birds]

They get Gate, bro. Full summoning is pretty sick by itself, but then you add on the other spells and goodies. Simulacrum is a spell that T3 don't have access to as well.

Wouldn't that make a certain (literally) broken class Truenamer in 3.5 at least Tier 2?

[Gnaeus]

They get Gate, bro. Full summoning is pretty sick by itself, but then you add on the other spells and goodies. Simulacrum is a spell that T3 don't have access to as well.

So does healer. Getting Gate at level 9 does not make you a t2 caster. If it did, you could call any Beguiler or Dread Necro or Warmage with Arcane disciple a tier 2 caster. Summoner is firmly T3.

[sonofzeal]

Wouldn't that make a certain (literally) broken class Truenamer in 3.5 at least Tier 2?
Truenamer only gets gate at lvl 20. Summoner gets it at lvl 16, before even Wizards, and has all sorts of game-changing spells long before that. Just looking down the lvl 4 list I see Magic Jar, Major Creation, Lesser Planar Binding, and Teleport.

It may only be 6 spell levels, but they've got so many of the real winners, at lower spell levels to counter the reduced progression, that it's pretty solidly T2.

[stack]

Also the whole "I can cast SMX as much as I need to" thing helps too. The summoner is more versatile when the eidolon is away.

[Gnaeus]

Truenamer only gets gate at lvl 20. Summoner gets it at lvl 16, before even Wizards, and has all sorts of game-changing spells long before that. Just looking down the lvl 4 list I see Magic Jar, Major Creation, Lesser Planar Binding, and Teleport.

It may only be 6 spell levels, but they've got so many of the real winners, at lower spell levels to counter the reduced progression, that it's pretty solidly T2.

Have you ever looked at the Beguiler spell list? It is also full of game changing spells. Stuff like Solid Fog, True Seeing, Shadow Walk, Mind Blank, Foresight and Time Stop. It is every bit as good as the Summoner's list, except that it is vastly easier to increase with feats like arcane disciple, or prestige classes, since it has a full 9th level progression. And the Summoner, at level 17, knows a total of 12 spells of his top 3 spell levels. That doesn't sound so bad, until you remember that the Summoner's 4-6s need to equal out the Dread Necro or Beguiler's 5-9s (beguiler, by contrast, has 38 spells known of 5-9, by default before they start adding to their list, and before Advanced Learning. Of course there is some duplication, but still!). Summoner has less spell versatility than Beguiler or Dread Necro. Summoner has a lower optimization floor (because it can choose poor spells off its list, compared with the full list casters) and a lower optimization ceiling (because Beguiler or Dread Necro can increase their spell list to duplicate any trick available to the Summoner, but the opposite is not true. Just look at Summoner Domain and imagine adding those spells to DN or Beguiler) And Beguilers and DNs both have their own ways to break action economy via pets.

[sonofzeal]

Have you ever looked at the Beguiler spell list? It is also full of game changing spells. Stuff like Solid Fog, True Seeing, Shadow Walk, Mind Blank, Foresight and Time Stop.
There's a difference though, and it's the difference between T3 and T2 - the Beguiler gets encounter-shattering spells; the Summoner gets campaign-shattering ones. The Beguiler's spells, while powerful, generally don't let you completely break the game the way the Summoner's do.

Compare Time Stop to Gate. Or at lvl 10, compare Feeblemind to Lesser Planar Binding.

But really, anything that gets Gate (or Wish, or Miracle, or especially Shapechange) earlier than a Wizard does, right out of the box, is a pretty strong candidate for T2.

[Gnaeus]

There's a difference though, and it's the difference between T3 and T2 - the Beguiler gets encounter-shattering spells; the Summoner gets campaign-shattering ones. The Beguiler's spells, while powerful, generally don't let you completely break the game the way the Summoner's do.

If Teleport is game shattering, so is Shadow Walk. Without even spending a feat, the beguiler can pick up Greater Shadow Conjuration with advanced learning, which by itself duplicates most of the Summoner's spell list. Mind Blank is the spell that keeps you from eating scry and dies from high level caster enemies. And as far as shattering campaigns, the Beguiler can mindcontrol enemies and get them to tell him their secrets or make them work for him.


Compare Time Stop to Gate. Or at lvl 10, compare Feeblemind to Lesser Planar Binding.

Beguiler takes 1 feat to get Gate and Lesser Planar Ally (and a lot more). Or instead he could use that same feat to get Wish, or Miracle. Which feat will you take to get Time Stop and Foresight, hmm?

[Snowbluff]

The problem would be that, In PF, there is no feat to get spells like that. A converted Beguiler would be below the Summoner.

Also, Tiers don't assume optimization levels.

[Gnaeus]

The problem would be that, In PF, there is no feat to get spells like that. A converted Beguiler would be below the Summoner.

Convert the class, convert the feat. Anyway, if it is less diverse than tier 3 casters in 3.5, why would you assume that it would be higher in PF only?


Also, Tiers don't assume optimization levels.

And neither do I. Tiers assume equivalent optimization level. Summoner is less versatile than beguiler at low op (where the summoner has bad spells known, but the beguiler has his entire list). Summoner is less versatile than Beguiler at mid op (one feat for Summoner domain at level 6 makes Beguiler strictly superior at almost everything except for straight up melee combat with an Eidolon). Summoner is WAY less versatile than Beguiler at high op, where Shadowcraft Gnomes and Rainbow Beguilers come into play.

Edit: Also, there are PF only ways to add spells to your spell list too, like Arcane Savant or Daivrat, which are still usable by Beguiler and not by Summoner. Actually, with Arcane Savant, the Beguiler could take spells that the Summoner gets at reduced level because of his delayed progression, then turn around and have access to them before the Summoner would get them. For example, he could borrow Summon Monster VIII off the summoner list where it is a level 6 spell castable at ECL 16, Arcane Savant adds 1, so the Beguiler would get it as a 7th level spell, castable at ECL 15. :-)

[Snowbluff]

Except Summoner was rated for PF tiers, assuming PF options.

If the Summoner chose bad spells, the Beguiler is using the worst spells on the list that's not as strong.

If the Beguiler is using Feats for spells know, the Beguiler can acquire spells from lists that get a discount as well.

The summoner always has Summoning available, and through that options that a Beguiler doesn't have without without making an investment.

Just because they have better options, doesn't improve their tier. Ex: Paladin.

[Gnaeus]

Except Summoner was rated for PF tiers, assuming PF options.

#1, I addressed this in an edit. Beguiler is still better even in a PF only game.

#2 the tier system still works the same. Summoner is still a fixed list caster. Fixed list casters are tier 3. It is still less flexible than classes that were ranked tier 3 in 3.5. In fact, the tier 2 casters are STRONGER in PF than 3.5. Oracle is strictly better than FS, and Sorcerer is radically stronger. If it weaker than Tier 3 classes in 3.5, why would it possibly hit tier 2 in PF?


If the Summoner chose bad spells, the Beguiler is using the worst spells on the list that's not as strong.

You are confused. Tiers have to do with the options available to the character. The low op beguiler has better options than a low op Summoner.

If you or I took over a low op Summoner, we would still be saddled with their sub optimal spells known. If we took over a low op Beguiler, we would have the benefit of their entire spell list.



If the Beguiler is using Feats for spells know, the Beguiler can acquire spells from lists that get a discount as well.

Correct! one reason why Summoner is not T2.


The summoner always has Summoning available, and through that options that a Beguiler doesn't have without without making an investment.

True. Just as the Beguiler has abilities that the summoner doesn't have without making an investment. Unfortunely, the Beguiler also has abilities the Summoner cannot get even if he DOES make an investment.

[RFLS]

Wouldn't that make a certain (literally) broken class Truenamer in 3.5 at least Tier 2?

Not quite. The reason the Truenamer isn't assigned a tier, generally, is that it is not even remotely static across optimization levels, which is a core assumption of the tier system (explicitly, t1 is t1 across the optimization board and t3 is t3 etcetera etcetera). In a low-op game, Truenamer is quite literally the worst base class, discounting NPCs. In a mid-op game, it functions around the 4-5 range. High-op, it jumps to t2.

This is a rough assessment, and I'm sure someone's going to jump all over it for some reason, so here's a TL;DR: Truenamer isn't tiered because its relative power level varies immensely with optimization level.


So does healer. Getting Gate at level 9 does not make you a t2 caster. If it did, you could call any Beguiler or Dread Necro or Warmage with Arcane disciple a tier 2 caster. Summoner is firmly T3.

Beguiler and DN are judged independently of Arcane Disciple, because that feat is separate from the class. I can expand if you want me to, but the basic reasoning for that statement is in the OP of the Tier system.


If Teleport is game shattering, so is Shadow Walk. Without even spending a feat, the beguiler can pick up Greater Shadow Conjuration with advanced learning, which by itself duplicates most of the Summoner's spell list. Mind Blank is the spell that keeps you from eating scry and dies from high level caster enemies. And as far as shattering campaigns, the Beguiler can mindcontrol enemies and get them to tell him their secrets or make them work for him.

Beguiler takes 1 feat to get Gate and Lesser Planar Ally (and a lot more). Or instead he could use that same feat to get Wish, or Miracle. Which feat will you take to get Time Stop and Foresight, hmm?

See my response to your other post for most of this. I'm quoting this one specifically for Shadow Conjuration. It does not duplicate the Summoner's list exactly, and the portions it does duplicate, it allows another save for. Shadow Conjuration is in no way a replacement for having direct access to those spells.

[Drelua]

Just out of curiosity, how would it effect tiers of Pathfinder classes if you account for all 3.5 material being available? A PF Paladin with Battle Blessing and Rhino's Rush, (not together of course) for example, would be pretty terrifying.

[RFLS]

Just out of curiosity, how would it effect tiers of Pathfinder classes if you account for all 3.5 material being available? A PF Paladin with Battle Blessing and Rhino's Rush, (not together of course) for example, would be pretty terrifying.

Most melee would get bumped about half a tier. Divine casters in general would receive massive buffs. Bards would be absolutely ecstatic. There'd also be some strange, unintended interactions between 3.5 and PF material.

[Gnaeus]

Beguiler and DN are judged independently of Arcane Disciple, because that feat is separate from the class. I can expand if you want me to, but the basic reasoning for that statement is in the OP of the Tier system.

No, they aren't. That is like saying that Druid is judged independently of Natural Spell and fighters are judged independently of the strength of Fighter feats.

The Tier system DOES assume equivalent optimization, but since Beguiler is ahead at every level of optimization, thats a wash.

[RFLS]

No, they aren't. That is like saying that Druid is judged independently of Natural Spell and fighters are judged independently of the strength of Fighter feats.

The Tier system DOES assume equivalent optimization, but since Beguiler is ahead at every level of optimization, thats a wash.

I seem to have transposed some logic I saw applied to UMD onto feats, but I'm going to maintain that options open to anyone shouldn't be considered in the Tier system.

I also maintain that Summoner is not pure T3. It has many, many powerful options that put it in a very strange place, balance wise.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, they aren't. That is like saying that Druid is judged independently of Natural Spell and fighters are judged independently of the strength of Fighter feats.

The Tier system DOES assume equivalent optimization, but since Beguiler is ahead at every level of optimization, thats a wash.

Druid is judged independently of Natural Spell. Bonus feats are the fighter's class features.

[MukkTB]

Barbarian - Got buffed much less than some of the other fighter things. The new thing it gets is rage powers. Go read them. They're somewhere between meh and mediocre for the most part. Was already solid tier 4. Stays solid tier 4.

Bard - Got the shaft to its bardic music. However, it still is very flexible. It still is moderately powerful. In fact its said Bard took the skillmonkey role away from the rogue. Its probably stiil a tier 3. Anyone arguing for tier 4 has to say that it just isn't very good at any one thing without bardic music being so good. Well its not an excellent spellcaster but any magic is pretty good. It doesn't have access to dragonfire inspiration or the other ways to buff bardic music in PF only. It does feel pretty lacking. I end up thinking very low tier 3. Its still a great face and skillmoney. That comes from the combination of high charisma, mind altering magics, and bonuses on knowledge skills. It can contribute in every other situation.

That qualifies as:

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate...

Cleric - Its a solid tier 1. The change is so minor you never hear anyone talking about it on the boards. Channel energy is a nice little bonus. Stays tier 1.

Druid - This got the nerfbat. There used to be an old saying for how to fix the druid. Animal Companion, Spellcasting, Shapeshifting, pick 2. Paizo more or less made it a reality. You have to choose to allocate resources between shapeshifting and magic because shapeshifting doesn't substitute stats anymore. Now if you want to turn into a bear and rip someone in half you have to have bought a stat array like a gish, with good strength. Of course you can still dump strength, then turn into a bird and fly around while droping spells. With the animal companion, you can choose to have it, or you can choose to be a stronger caster with a domain. So while no class features are technically lost, 2 of them can be developed to their potential. Its still tier 1 on the strength of its spells alone.

Fighter - The Fighter may break the tier 4 barrier. Why? He was almost there and he got buffed more than a few of his fellow smashy guys. I've heard it said that the fighter is now better than the barbarian. Tier 4.

Monk - Its still terrible. Tier 5. But you can qinggong monk as an ACF and make as far as 3 depending on how you build that. Its almost like the swordage got to come along for the ride.

Paladin - It got some good buffs. My favorite is lay on hands on self as a swift action imbued with additional healing utility. It can trade its mount for a magic weapon, or other equipment. Its about the best tank in the game when looking at PF only. Having a class feature that essentially reads fast healing in combat is nice. A caster spamming summons probably still edges out though. Tier 4.

Ranger - There are now a nice variety of fighting styles beyond two weapon fighting and archery. Pretty much any style can be accommodated, one big weapon, mounted charger, mounted archery, sword and board... Beyond that it didn't get much of a buff. It was tier 4 and it remains tier 4.

Rogue - This guy took the shaft. Skillmonkey is not his domain anymore. Training cross class skills only looses a +3 competence bonus but advances at the same rate. Its much easier to get something as a class skill. Use a trait. Furthermore the consolidated list means you can get by on fewer skillpoints. There's the bard with bonuses to knowledge skills. Theres the alchemist with 4 skillpoints per level on an int based caster. Sneak attack still works, in some ways better than before, buts its kind of limited. In short stays tier 4, but drops to the very low end.

Sorcerer - This guy gets a nice buff in the form of bloodlines. He didn't need it. He also has several ways of breaking into tier 1. There are some RAW legal tricks, but my favorite is the new spell research rules in Ultimate Campaign. Using those he can pick up new spells almost as cheaply as a wizard, but requiring large amounts of time. Tier 2. Tier 1 if 1 of several tricks has been used.

Wizard - Schools provide the buff here. Again it wasn't needed. Tier 1.


NEW CLASSES
Alchemist - This is a caster with spells going up to 6 and some goodies related to alchemy. Jekyll and Hyde, Reanimator, Dr. Moreau and other iconic 'alchemists' can be achieved. Tier 3.

Cavalier - This is another fighter type. Mounted combat can have some limitations if you're not small. It sucks to be a human on a horse in a dungeon. However you could think of this guy instead as a crappy fighter with a full power animal companion who happens to get bonuses wen he's riding it. High tier 5.

Inquisitor - This is a divine gish with 6th level casting, lots of skillpoints, and some solid combat abilities. I like the classes versatility. Tier 3.

Oracle - The divine Sorcerer. Tier 2. Can break into tier 1 using the research thing and possibly some of the other tricks.

Summoner - This is a tough one. I am inclined to make it full tier 2 despite only casting up to 6th levels spells. Its a combat powerhouse on top of early access to campaign breaking magic.

On a side note, this class is hilariously suited for Japanese themed stuff. Pokemon? No problem. You can make your eidolon look like whatever weird monster you want, and then you can summon a host of other weird things. Giant robots? Make your eidolon look like one and climb on into it. Theres an ACF called Synthesist that lets you merge with the eidolon. Magical girls? Well: #1 Be a young girl. #2 Take synthesist. #3 Make your eidolon a prettier version of you dressed in pink. #4 Explain to your party why you did this thing. Some day I'm going to get around to annoying the everliving ****out of my friends by pretending to be an angsty Japanese kid.

Witch - Caster with a robust spell list up to 9th level with knowledge of everything on the list and prepared casting. Tier 1

Magus - Solid gish in a can if not very interesting. Casts up to 6th level. Spams shocking grasp through his entire carrier. Very nice meld of fighting and casting. Tier 3.

Gunslinger - The fighter of guns. Some people like this addition and its old west feel. Some people don't like guns in their fantasy campaign. The class basically requires that you ask your DM if guns are a thing. If they are, this is the way to do lots of damage with them. Tier 4.

Ninja - A much better tier 4 than the rogue.

Samurai - Another tier 5.

Looking back over this, I'm not sure if the rogue and/or the bard got nerfed enough to drop in tier, but I think they narrowly avoided that fate. The samurai and cavalier are both agreed to be tier 5, but I thought animal companion was a tier 4 class feature so I'm not sure. The reason I'm going with tier 5 for them is that everyone else agrees that's where they belong.

[Psyren]

According to the people who designed Pathfinder, everything is perfectly equal, from the wizard to the monk.

Source for iteration XXV of the telephone game?

(Not that it's even relevant, since tier systems are always a community creation rather than the designers.)

@ OP: The tiers are about the same as they are in 3.5. For the new PF classes they are:

T1: Witch
T2: Oracle, Summoner
T3: Magus, Alchemist, Inquisitor
T4: Ninja
T5: Gunslinger, Cavalier/Samurai

The right archetype or combination of archetypes can shift a class one step (up or down.)

[navar100]

There is no "official" tier system for Pathfinder. There is no "official" tier system for 3E. There is no "official" tier system at all. The tier system is one person's evaluation opinion that has become popular and shared. It is not a Constitution.

[grarrrg]

stuff

Can we just call the Summoner a T2.5 and be done?


There is no "official" tier system for Pathfinder. There is no "official" tier system for 3E. There is no "official" tier system at all. The tier system is one person's evaluation opinion that has become popular and shared. It is not a Constitution.

:smallsigh:
You are correct that Tiers are not official.
And even though it _started_ as one person's opinion, there are many people who agree with that opinion, with plenty of supporting evidence backing them up.

If you don't like tiers, that's your opinion, but as this thread is based on the assumption that tiers "are a thing", let's please try and stay on topic, shall we?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I don't know where I would rank everything, other than saying that Druids and Clerics were hit the hardest with the nerf stick, wizards didn't lose that much and maybe gained a little, rogues got hit pretty hard too, and fighters got slightly better.

My best guess:
Tier 1:
High: Wizard, Oracle (Paragon Surge), Sorcerer (Paragon Surge);
Low: Cleric, Druid, Witch;

Tier 2: Oracle, Psion, Sorcerer, Summoner;

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Paladin, Psychic Warrior;

Tier 4: Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Ninja, Quiggong Monk, Ranger, Soulknife, Wilder;

Tier 5: Cavalier, Monk, Rogue, Samurai;

Tier 6: Common, Aristocrat, Warrior

Yes. I really do think the ninja is a tier above the rogue, but only by virtue that a rogue is high tier 5, and a ninja is very low tier 4. In fact that pretty much defines the cavalier too. High tier 5, but not good enough at what they do, or their niche isn't important enough for them to be tier 4. Summoner is low tier 2, high tier 3, put it where you want. Synthesist summoner is probably tier 3.

I also put the Paladin in tier 3 because of the strong improvements to smite, and an overall cleaning up of the class, and a strong selection of archetypes. I would argue that it stands alongside the Magus.

[geekintheground]

There is no "official" tier system for Pathfinder. There is no "official" tier system for 3E. There is no "official" tier system at all. The tier system is one person's evaluation opinion that has become popular and shared. It is not a Constitution.

i know its not official, thats why its in quotation marks :) thank you everyone for your input :)

[Psyren]

I think Gunslinger is T5, and I disagree that Rogue fell a whole tier, but otherwise agree with Squirrel's ranking.

Since you included psionic classes I'll suggest the PsiEx ones: Tactician is T2, Vitalist, Marksman and Cryptic are T3, Aegis and Dread are T4.

[kardar233]

I don't agree that the Fighter makes Tier 4, but I'm clearly in the minority here. I definitely disagree with the idea that PF Paladin is T3; it could definitely be argued that it's T4, but I don't see it being T3 outside of whichever archetype makes you an Angel Summoner.

[Raven777]

I was reading Squirrel's list and wondering "why did he put the Rogue in Tier 5", then I realized that now, when I read "Rogue", my brain thinks of "Archeologist Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist)".