Need Help thinking up new character idea

[Yogibear41]

So after roughly 4 or so character concepts have been rejected by my DM, I'm at a loss for ideas, normally I prefer to play kinda of out there races/class mixes, but this is a big part of the problem.

Here is part of an email I just recieved from him about my latest idea:

"First off, I really liked your backstory and explanation of how such a creature made it into a low magic world; I appreciate you working with the situation I've put out there."

"but more important than the combat strength thing is the effect on RP that something like that would have. It's pretty hard to carry out a discreet investigation in town when you have a big old construct following you around. We've been in a dungeon since you joined so it's not been clear, but combat isn't at the center of this game. I want people to have a chance to think and to really roleplay, not just fight. I'm expecting the next few weeks to happen entirely in town, for example."

"Most of these ideas feel like trying to put a Drow in with the normal population. This world is mostly just regular old people with no experience with the obviously strange. I would strongly prefer that we leave out monster races entirely, especially homebrew fixes to things that aren't meant to be playable in the first place. "

"I know this has to be frustrating as hell for you, especially given the slowness of my replies. I'm really sorry about that. You have a right to be pissed."

put that last part in just for the funnies :smallsmile:

This email was in response to my Maug character in case you were wondering.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm... one of the reasons I like the Vashar. You blend in perfectly on any world/plane/area that has a human population. But you are mentally different enough to make roleplaying them significantly different from how you would play a human.

Barring that? Hengeyokai are always interesting. I mean despite the fact that they're known for being hybrid animals and such, they do have a perfectly mundane looking humanoid form. You can hide out with that as long as you need to, wolfing/raccoon dogging/carping/sparrowing out when the fur is about to fly.

[Nettlekid]

Dude, Changeling. They're designed not to stand out at all, but you can get into so much mischief imitating your party members and other important people, especially if a low-magic world isn't expecting shapechangers.

[Yogibear41]

Dude, Changeling. They're designed not to stand out at all, but you can get into so much mischief imitating your party members and other important people, especially if a low-magic world isn't expecting shapechangers.

Half-way contemplated playing a whisper gnome with the dark template on it, wait til night time sneak out the window of my inn room go around the small town the party happens to be in and steal just about everything I could carry that was valuable as well as kill anyone who happened to snore to loud while I was doing it. With around a +30 hide and over +20 move silent at level 2 with hide in plain sight I doubt anyone could catch me.

But I'm generally not the roguish type.

Edit: part of my problem is I come up with stuff like this^ while everyone else in the group is extremely unexperienced and is pretty much going out of the players handbook.

[Ezberron]

What do you enjoy about the "out there" races? is it a psychology thing or do you just like standing out in a crowd?

If you're all about playing the outsider looking in, you could pick something like a sylph or 1/2 something that looks human but doesn't think or act human...

if you're looking to stand out, you can do that with a human. just give him a mohawk and tattoos (think maori). you don't need an exotic race to be exotic.

the GM mentioned "low magic world" so maybe pick a class that you want to explore that fits a low-magic world and once you have the class, pick a race that matches?

just my .0002 GP

[Harlot]

As I read it, your DM primarily wants discretion and the ability to blend in.

That rules out everything that doesn't look more or less like core races and also rules out giving an average human character a Maori makeover .

So something like Aasimars maybe, Air Genasi or a doppelganger? Though as I remember it the last has a level adjustment of 4. (!) But it's still cool though.

Or some sort of lycantrope? There's a template in Races of Faerun.

There's loads of options, really, even within the limits set by your DM. I agree with Ezberron: Find out what type class you want to be, then find a race that fits. No reason to make a doppelganger if your style of play is hack'n'slash.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Half-way contemplated playing a whisper gnome with the dark template on it, wait til night time sneak out the window of my inn room go around the small town the party happens to be in and steal just about everything I could carry that was valuable as well as kill anyone who happened to snore to loud while I was doing it. With around a +30 hide and over +20 move silent at level 2 with hide in plain sight I doubt anyone could catch me.

But I'm generally not the roguish type.

Edit: part of my problem is I come up with stuff like this^ while everyone else in the group is extremely unexperienced and is pretty much going out of the players handbook.

Sounds to me that the problem is that you are going to overshadow the rest of the party if you play something like this, I can see why the DM might not want an optimised templated creature like Mineral warrior water orc barbarian or your dark whisper gnome playing amongst the elf rangers and dwarven fighters.

Have you tried any unusual core only builds? How abour Dwarven druid, half orc sorcerer, halfling fighter, gnome cleric, the kinds of class/race combos that might not immediately stand out.

[nedz]

I'm not sure what you are looking for in terms of role ?
Caster, Melee ?

One idea I had was to play a straight fighter but spend your regular feats on the Fey Heritage line of feats. This would give you six SLAs of moderate utility.
You don't have to go Fighter 20; this would work quite well with Barbarian or Rogue, for example.
It's not OP, but we are talking about a low magic game.
You also have an underlying weirdness, which is not immediately apparent.

[Blightedmarsh]

Changeling race with factorum class prestieging into chameleon.

Stand out? Not hardly; you are everyone and no-one.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think a Hellbred (Spirit Aspect) Sorcadin build would be a good compromise. It should be possible to work out a physical appearance that satisfies the basic concept outlined in the Fiendish Codex II without being so supernatural-appearing as to be beyond the ability of the community to accept. You could probably pass yourself off as a burn victim or something and hide the most damning features from sight.

Meanwhile, the Sorcadin archetype gives you a lot of flexibility for the kind of class-building that seems to interest you. I just glanced through a couple of your other threads about he Maug character and can imagine you would be able to come up with more than just the standard Paladin/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion concept.

[TheStranger]

It sounds like the problem is that your DM has an established idea of how the campaign world works and doesn't want to change that to accommodate nonstandard character races. As the DM, that's his prerogative; he presumably has some ideas for the setting and the campaign, and not every character is appropriate in every game.

You mentioned that other players were making characters out of the PHB. It sounds like this is the type of game the DM wants to run; I'm going to suggest that you use a PHB race and not worry about standing out. An optimized character, or an exotic race, isn't going to fit in if the rest of the party is playing OotS-style characters.

If you go with something like Changeling (or other exotic but ordinary-looking race), that will address the specific concern voiced by the DM. However, it might also be seen as an underhanded way of ignoring what appears to be his actual concern, which is that he has set up the campaign and the world for fairly ordinary, unoptimized characters. If that's the case, I doubt he'll appreciate you trying to circumvent his vision for the campaign. If he's rejected four characters, he obviously has some specific ideas about what does and doesn't fit. So talk to your DM, find out if that is indeed the case, and work with him to make sure your character fits in.

[JellyPooga]

I'm going to go ahead and agree with those people who've posted words to the effect of "don't rock the boat".

It sounds very much like the DM wants the PC's to be "normal", for want of a better word. I'm similar to you inasmuch as I like to play the weird and the wonderful, but when the GM is inexperienced or just wants to play a more low-key game, including a Half-Fiendish Whisper Gnome Mineral Warrior can seem like a bit of a stretch. Even trying to 'bend the rules' by playing things that are unusual but will blend in (Changelings, Planetouched, etc.) is kind of missing the point.

My advice would be to pick something out of the PHB and add your own sense of the unusual. Have your character be raised by an unusual foster parent, have an non-standard skin-tone, come from a wildly different culture or any number of other aspects that can be great fun to roleplay, but without having to include any non-standard rules.

Just as an example, disillusioned by the lack of options in 2nd edition ad&d, I added the "unusual" aspect by playing an Elf Mage/Thief with dark brown skin and violet eyes, who was raised by city-born half-elven merchants and trained in the arcane arts in a remote desert monastery. Mechanically, he was no different from any other Elven Mage/Thief, but the little touches of his ambiguous heritage (was he a descendant of the Drow?), unusual accent (which was vaguely sub-Saharan African) and unfamiliarity with "modern" human culture (because he'd spent the past 50-odd years away from it in his monastery) really made him feel like an outsider in the city-based campaign we were playing.

[Waker]

Aside from making a standard race character and perhaps playing them with a bit of flair, your other option is to play a race that looks normal. Examples of this would be stuff like Elan or Kalashtar, Changelings who are shapeshifted, Vashar or the evil Halfling race from BoVD, or Tibbits.

[Yogibear41]

The DM has also told the group that half-hobgoblins are actually halfway accepted into society, so somethings that may normally seem out of the ordinary are accepted. So i've just been hit and miss with other types of monstrous humanoids and such.


I've directed my DM to this page and he should be posting his comments sometime today. (game is tonight so hope it doesn't take to long)

[BowStreetRunner]

I've directed my DM to this page and he should be posting his comments sometime today. (game is tonight so hope it doesn't take to long)

Eeek! Your DM is coming HERE!?!? ITS AN AUDIT!!! Quick, shred everything incriminating! Somebody lock the door so Tippy doesn't get in here. Oh, the added pressure! Performanceanxietyperformanceanxietyperformanceanx iety... :smalleek:

[Waker]

Eeek! Your DM is coming HERE!?!? ITS AN AUDIT!!! Quick, shred everything incriminating! Somebody lock the door so Tippy doesn't get in here. Oh, the added pressure! Performanceanxietyperformanceanxietyperformanceanx iety... :smalleek:

Calm down BSR, he's from a different department so unless he can get a hold of your DM, you won't get in any trouble.

[Rabk]

[:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: I typed an extremely long response and just lost it all because of an accidental touchpad tap followed by a backspace. I'll try to give a quick condensed version now.]

Yogibear's DM here. Game is 3.5. World is low-magic, human-centered but with a fair smattering of the other "standard" races (plus some half-hobgoblin homebrew shenanigans as a result of several large hobgoblin nations nearby). World is fairly realistic, not a ton of extraplanar/supernatural stuff floating around. Not a bunch of adventurer-types traveling the world, either, mostly just regular folks. I don't expect to run this particular party past level 10-12 or so. Rule 0 is very strongly in effect: story is king, and good roleplay/description/creativity often trumps RAW.

I started this game as a sort of introductory course for some new players. My most important objective is that everyone enjoys themselves - I don't want a poor experience with a first-time character to turn anyone off to the game forever. I've pretty much straight railroaded them so far and have been slowly putting them through the paces so they could learn the different aspects of the game without being overwhelmed. I've more or less taken the training wheels off at this point and the world is much more open (and their actions have much more serious consequences :smalltongue:). Yogi joined the game a good ways into it so he managed to miss most of the boring stuff.

He's already covered the basic problem for us:

part of my problem is I come up with stuff like this^ while everyone else in the group is extremely unexperienced and is pretty much going out of the players handbook.

The party (lvl 3-4) currently consists of:


Human Bard (slightly experienced, player is already frustrated and withdrawn due to his character's poor combat abilities but he's stuck with us because the game is at his house and his wife is way into it (I would greatly appreciate any advice on how to alleviate this situation if anyone has some to offer))
Human Barbarian (little-to-no experience but is actively learning and trying to improve her combat effectiveness)
Halfling Monk (zero experience but extremely creative (and therefore effective, under my DM style) with tactics and problem-solving; he's doing a little bit of optimization as well, but not much)
Human Cleric (zero experience and completely clueless about how the game works. She's afraid to "use up" her daily spells and often has to be told what to do. I seriously doubt she'll be playing with us much longer.)
[Soon to join:] Dwarven Cleric (very experienced, but extremely roleplay-oriented from what I can tell. Hardcore nerfed himself for RP purposes during character creation.)
[Soon to join:] Gnome Rogue (very experienced, and I'm not sure yetwhat kind of player she will be. Seemed pretty serious about roleplaying (took some character-driven traits that were decidedly sub-optimal, for example), but showed a definite interest in being effective as well.)
...and our boy Yogi. :smallwink:


I would be surprised if any of them wind up going PrC at all. So the question is one of party balance and of playability as a group. Given the playstyles I've seen so far I would put them at Tier 3 tops, possibly Tier 4 or even 5 in some cases. (I don't know how the two new players are going to effect that yet.) I've had to reduce CR on several encounters just to prevent a TPK. Anybody who knows the game (i.e., Yogi) has to either seriously restrain himself or be nerfed to keep from grossly imbalancing the party. Potential opponents that would be a challenge for him would probably wipe the floor with the rest of the party, and he could just destroy anything that would be suitable for the others. I therefore have had to severely limit Yogi on character choice.

Yogi likes to play "out-there" characters and I want to accommodate him in that as much as possible. It's been very hard to do that in this group, however. Anything overpowered is obviously out, and any extremes of appearance/race would make it too difficult to do town-based adventures (which I deem entirely necessary to keep the bard engaged).

His first character was a shapeshifting druid that I actually really liked, but he had to leave the party for RP reasons. I really want him to have something that's interesting for him but I can't let the party dynamic shift too far towards him, either. I would greatly prefer a wild character idea/backstory/personality that he could have fun with without having to go to something too unnatural or bizarre.

Lycanthropes exist in this world but are hated/feared by everyone except for the secretive worshipers of one CE god (Plague Rate, Yogi, in case you're interested - I have the background if you want it.) and the church of one fairly widespread CG goddess (The Luminous Lady, Y) pretty much hunts them full time (and have a way to expose them by forcing a shapeshift even in daylight (moon goddess and all that)).

I don't really know Oriental Adventures, but at first glance the Hengeyokai look OK. Wu Jen (their favored class) would probably get a pretty hard nerf. Because, you know, spellcasters with access to a whole spellbok, right?

Psionics is a thing, but it's an extremely rare genetic mutation and most people view it with fear/suspicion (think X-Men). It's therefore very difficult to get training in its use due to the surfeit of instructors.

It's a good/neutral party so no Vashar. Things like the whisper gnome would also be difficult to pull off because of the necessity of playing a character like that solo a lot of the time, thus leaving the rest of the group bored for much of the evening.

There have been a number of posts since I first read this (damn browser - I just installed this (https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lazarus-form-recovery/loljledaigphbcpfhfmgopdkppkifgno) - I highly recommend it before you **** up like I did), but that addresses some of what I saw earlier.

I appreciate all of you folks helping us out with this; it's been a nasty problem to try and solve.

[Rabk]

Because I wasn't especially clear: PHB races or close analogues (including chameleon/shapeshifter/doppelganger types) will work fine. Half-hobgoblins are cool as well (though they're not the favorites in upper-class social circles). Certain extremes of fashion are manageable (like the Maori makeover someone mentioned); this is a very multicultural society.

Half-dragons, constructs, most outsiders, ents, grays, Goa'uld, wendigos, cylons, wolpertingers, Borg, and Ella Harper (http://www.phreeque.com/ella_harper.html) won't cut it, however. There are no camel girls in this society.

[Harlot]

Rabk, thanks for clarifying. I understand your reasoning. I'd go for strongheart halfling or Aasimar then.

Reg. the bard: Bards suck. Always.

Couldn't you strike a deal with the bard that he got to die in EPIC fashion and then let him roll up a new character? Could be that bards fiercer fighter brother, just like in Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Otherwise multiclassing (houseruled, so with no penalties) would be the solution, though I can't think up the right combo, because really I would never combine anything with bard.

[Waker]

Reg. the bard: Bards suck. Always.
Pfft, Bards are a great class.

Anyways, I'd say that Yogi should consider going with Psychic Warrior or Rogue or perhaps something a bit more unorthodox like Binder. I suggest the first just in case you need a warrior type for fighting, P Rogue for having decent skill access, and Binders have magic but are decidedly less powerful compared to normal mages.
Regardless, all of them are T3/4, so you shouldn't have to worry about the character outperforming the rest.

[TheStranger]

Pfft, Bards are a great class.
Bards are great, but there's a certain visceral satisfaction in rolling lots of damage dice that appeals to a lot of players. If that's what the player is after, bards do kind of suck.

Anyway, Rabk, it sounds like you're being pretty reasonable about this. However, I think you guys need to sit down and talk through this, rather than have Yogi keep submitting characters and hoping they get approved.

[ArcturusV]

Conditional: Bards suck if the DM or the Player determines they suck.

If you focus on the bard trying to be a Healer, or a Blaster, they're going to suck. The bard's strength is all in being The Con Man, The Face, the Trickster. This means that both the player and the DM both have to be willing to be creative, use illusions intelligently and let them actually work (... yeah, sucks when your DM just Auto-Nopes and has everyone disbelieve every illusion ever), use enchantments subtly, and use your skills to back up the lies that your magic is setting up.

If your bard is trying to be a "Warrior" or a blaster, or a Healer, you might want to suggest he reconsiders the Con Man angle. You did mention heavy RPing and Urban Adventuring, that is RIGHT in the Bardic Wheelhouse, seriously, best class ever for that sort of campaign. He should be rocking face.

[Harlot]

If you focus on the bard trying to be a Healer, or a Blaster, they're going to suck. The bard's strength is all in being The Con Man, The Face, the Trickster. This means that both the player and the DM both have to be willing to be creative, use illusions intelligently and let them actually work (... yeah, sucks when your DM just Auto-Nopes and has everyone disbelieve every illusion ever), use enchantments subtly, and use your skills to back up the lies that your magic is setting up.

If your bard is trying to be a "Warrior" or a blaster, or a Healer, you might want to suggest he reconsiders the Con Man angle. You did mention heavy RPing and Urban Adventuring, that is RIGHT in the Bardic Wheelhouse, seriously, best class ever for that sort of campaign. He should be rocking face.

OK, I agree, the bard in and by itself does not absolutely suck in scenarios that are built specifically to make bards not suck.
Problem is ... most adventures aren't. And those that are tend to be very boring for the rest of the group - specifically the tanks.

The ONLY time I've ever seen a bard build actually work was - yup, urban adventuring, loads of roleplaying, loads of snooping around.
That being said: The bard really was the only one having a great time - the rest of the group was just dragged along, pretty much feeling left out (like the bard does 99% of the time, I guess.)

EDIT: Re-reading and re-remembering this: The DM made the mistake of focusing too much on what the bard (i.e. communicator, orator, con-man) could and would do. I guess, if the DM had focused on the group, it would have maybe not been so tedious

Sorry: The problem at hand is that the PC being the bard doesn't really love it. So yes, Rabk's solution at hand, RP'ing and urban surroundings should help. And if it doesn't, I'd still go with the EPIC DEATH solution ;-)

[Yogibear41]

Ended up playing as Killoren druid/wizard multicalss druid 2/wizard 1

Primarily focusing on melee combat atm, believe it or not 18 str woop woop and have promised the DM to not explode the game with these tier 1 classes.

Took the incense smoking non spellbook carrying wizard variant for the awesomes too. Specialized in Illusion, and banned trans, necro, and evo.

Plan to go into Arcane Hierophant at level 7.

Also have DR 5/cold iron from feats, flaws and fey heritage ftw :smallsmile:


I'd be pro bard dying (no offense to the player) because then maybe I'd get to play my Maug character since I wouldn't have to worry about fitting into society for his benefit, I could just go around smashing. :smallsmile: