Balancing Persist Power (Metapsionic) for 3.5

[Feint's End]

So there was this Thread yesterday about persist power in 3.5 here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289179) and after discussing a bit we came to the conclussion that there is no legitimate version in 3.5. There is one version in 3.0 (3.0 psionics got completely overwritten by 3.5 though so the general rule to take it to 3.5 if it wasn't updated doesn't apply) and one version in Hyperconscious (which even though it is a great book in and itself is 3rd party)

3.0 version
-Prerequisite: Extend Power
-Benefit: A persistent power has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent power must have a personal range or a fixed range; you can't use this feat on a power with a variable range, or on a power with an instantaneous duration. Note that you must concentrate on some powers to use their effects (for example, detect psionics and detect thoughts); concentration on such a power is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost + 8.
Thought's on this version
8pp sounds a little bit too low for my taste though it might be totally ok in TO and high opt due to the existance of Incantatrix and DMM. In normal games the cost is not high enough.


Hyperconscious version
-Prerequisite: Extend Power
-Benefit: To use this feat, you must maintain a psionic focus,
which allows you to manifest a persistent power. A persistent
power has a duration of up to 24 hours, as long as you do not
expend your psionic focus for some other reason. If you do
expend your psionic focus, the persistent power immediately
ends, even if the 24-hour duration has yet to elapse.
The persistent power must have a personal or a fixed
range. This feat cannot affect powers of instantaneous duration,
and it cannot affect a power whose effect is discharged.
For powers that require concentration to learn extra information
(such as detect psionics), you still must concentrate.
Concentration on such a power is a standard action that
does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power
by 12. The power’s cost cannot exceed your manifester level.
The effect of this feat does not stack with the effect of the
Extend Power feat.
Thoughts on this version
Honestly ... what were they thinking? 12 pp? That contradicts pretty much all of 3.5 Metapsionics with a cost higher than 2 additional pp since every other metapsionic feat costs less compared to the magical version (maximize for example +4pp and that equals +2 grades). Psionic is already pretty screwed compared to arcane metamagiccheese due to psionic focus (with the noteable exception of Dominant Ideal Ardents who have cheese written all over their face).
I also think the focus-thing is too harsh since depending on RAW you always have to have one focus active or you can't even use it because you expend the focus you have to maintain to maintain the power ... clever eh? So even if I'd use the 12 pp version I would rule that part out since it makes persist just not viable

Now I'll try to find a balanced version for my games and hopefully creating a page where psionics-lovers can go for advice on which version to allow/use/ask for in their games.

My personal suggestion would be using the 3.0 version just with 10pp instead of 8 since I feel that is too low and it would be on par with other metapsionic feats.

Thoughts playground?

[Tvtyrant]

This is going to seem wrong compared to other metapowers, but why not have it at 12 PP and have a limited number of times you can use it a day? You normally cannot use your best powers that way, and it would prevent stacking 30 power buffs on at once.

Anyway you slice it the Wilder looks like the best way to do it, as you can Wildsurge a bunch of times in the morning on maximum without caring about the daze rider.

[Kuulvheysoon]

This is going to seem wrong compared to other metapowers, but why not have it at 12 PP and have a limited number of times you can use it a day? You normally cannot use your best powers that way, and it would prevent stacking 30 power buffs on at once.

Anyway you slice it the Wilder looks like the best way to do it, as you can Wildsurge a bunch of times in the morning on maximum without caring about the daze rider.

Well, the Wilder certainly needs something nice, expecially after Anarchic Initiate (which would also mke very good use of it).

[Feint's End]

Conceptwise it is a psion thing though ... and I'm not trying to balance something for the Wilder since metapsionics IS a psion thing in general. How would you do the limited use though?

edit: maybe 10pp and using the Hyperconscious version on you have to maintain 1 focus at all time. That makes it pretty featintense (-> extend, persist, Psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment) to use.

[Psyren]

The Hyperconscious version is intended to be combined with the Permanent Focus feat from the same book, which lets you treat one other feat that requires you to maintain focus for the benefits as though you are always doing so, even if you spend your focus/foci repeatedly on something else.

The general idea is to have no more than 1-3 buffs persisted, rather than being a walking buff juggernaut like a DMM Persist cleric.

[Feint's End]

The Hyperconscious version is intended to be combined with the Permanent Focus feat from the same book, which lets you treat one other feat that requires you to maintain focus for the benefits as though you are always doing so, even if you spend your focus/foci repeatedly on something else.

The general idea is to have no more than 1-3 buffs persisted, rather than being a walking buff juggernaut like a DMM Persist cleric.

Ah I see ... I really should have looked more into those feats. Since you are quite experience with 3.P psionics would you rule it with 12pp or with 10pp? I honestly tend to 10 pp even if you use the Hyperconscious version.

edit: in general it's cheaper featwise to go with a psicrystal containment to have a permanent psionic focus ... exception if ofc if you are already making heavy use of that focus so you need narrow mind + Permanent Focus

[Ernir]

I vastly prefer the Hyperconscious version. It's brilliant, IMO. Makes me sad I didn't think of it myself!

The formula of

Metapsionic PP cost increase = min((metamagic spell level increase - 1)*2,0)

is the rule of thumb, not an absolute one. Note that the Extend Power feat carries a PP cost increase despite the Extend Spell feat only having a +1 adjustment. Looks like the psionics authors just placed great value on extending the duration of powers - quite rightly, IMO.

Still, I think +10 might be quite punishing enough anyway.

[Mithril Leaf]

Ah I see ... I really should have looked more into those feats. Since you are quite experience with 3.P psionics would you rule it with 12pp or with 10pp? I honestly tend to 10 pp even if you use the Hyperconscious version.

edit: in general it's cheaper featwise to go with a psicrystal containment to have a permanent psionic focus ... exception if ofc if you are already making heavy use of that focus so you need narrow mind + Permanent Focus

I'd personally recommend 10, because of two main reasons:
A) Who actually used the big +6 persistent spell as a normal metamagic? Psions don't really have reducers.
B) There are very few decent psionic buffs, and most of the good ones are already lasting either 10 minutes or 1 hour per level.

[Feint's End]

well I think the increase on extend is mainly because so that there is an increase at all. So no extend for +0 pp.

+10 sounds fair to may since you can still opt a level 20 psion to persist 9th level powers (metapower, torc, overchannel, earthpower)

edit: after thinking it through I actually think extend power has a cost of 2 because it doesn't get balanced by expenditure of the focus (you don't buff inside combat where it is the balance factor usually) ... so 12 pp might still be completely ok

[Feint's End]

I'd personally recommend 10, because of two main reasons:
A) Who actually used the big +6 persistent spell as a normal metamagic? Psions don't really have reducers.
B) There are very few decent psionic buffs, and most of the good ones are already lasting either 10 minutes or 1 hour per level.

My thoughts too but psionics have amazing metamagic reducers though not quite on par with arcane and divine ones. Think Overchannel, wild surge, torc, earth power, midnight augmentation +3 pp over your highes level power at level 20
I agree on B though. I can't really think of any worldshattering ones except for Timeless Body (and you probably shouldn't persist that one if you want to keep your dm sanity). Sure ... Persisted Schism is good but so is Spellsurge.

[Psyren]

Ah I see ... I really should have looked more into those feats. Since you are quite experience with 3.P psionics would you rule it with 12pp or with 10pp? I honestly tend to 10 pp even if you use the Hyperconscious version.

12 is fine and translates pretty much exactly to the +6 adjustment of Persist Spell.



edit: in general it's cheaper featwise to go with a psicrystal containment to have a permanent psionic focus ... exception if ofc if you are already making heavy use of that focus so you need narrow mind + Permanent Focus

The advantage to Permanent Focus is that you can use your Psicrystal Containment for other things. There are various psionic monsters that eat your focus as well, which would cause your buff to fall off and put you in danger.


Who actually used the big +6 persistent spell as a normal metamagic? Psions don't really have reducers.

Psions do have reducers - they're aimed at total PP in general rather than metapsionics specifically but they're there. But more importantly Remember that psionics works very differently from magic in key ways, and one of them is capped progressions - whereas a magic user is chained to their spell levels, a psion's only real limit is his caster/manifester level. It is much, much easier for a psion to raise his ML than it is for a Wizard or Cleric to access a higher level of spells than their maximum. For example, a Wizard will have a very hard time quickening even 1st-level spells before 9th level, but a Psion with Overchannel/a ToPP/an ioun stone can do this much earlier. And at the opposite end of the spectrum, it's almost impossible for a Wizard to persist a 6th-level and up spell before epic levels, but all a psion has to do is hit 23 ML - a cakewalk even before cost reducers.

The second difference is cost - the point-based system of psionics basically means that a psion can burn lower level "slots" to pay for his metamagic. In the magic world, this sort of thing is also possible, but only for a handful of very specific builds.

[Mithril Leaf]

Psions do have reducers - they're aimed at total PP in general rather than metapsionics specifically but they're there. But more importantly Remember that psionics works very differently from magic in key ways, and one of them is capped progressions - whereas a magic user is chained to their spell levels, a psion's only real limit is his caster/manifester level. It is much, much easier for a psion to raise his ML than it is for a Wizard or Cleric to access a higher level of spells than their maximum. For example, a Wizard will have a very hard time quickening even 1st-level spells before 9th level, but a Psion with Overchannel/a ToPP/an ioun stone can do this much earlier. And at the opposite end of the spectrum, it's almost impossible for a Wizard to persist a 6th-level and up spell before epic levels, but all a psion has to do is hit 23 ML - a cakewalk even before cost reducers.

The second difference is cost - the point-based system of psionics basically means that a psion can burn lower level "slots" to pay for his metamagic. In the magic world, this sort of thing is also possible, but only for a handful of very specific builds.

But my initial point still stands. With Persist, it's generally all or nothing. The casters who use persist are ones that get it for free.
And the way psionic augmentation is handled, by persisting powers, it reduces the actually strength of the power. So a 20th level caster casting a persistent spell is getting a stronger effect than a manifester manifesting a persistent power of the same level.

[Psyren]

But my initial point still stands. With Persist, it's generally all or nothing. The casters who use persist are ones that get it for free.

Which is horrible design. Something as powerful as having a minute/lvl or 10 min.lvl buff active all day should be inherently desirable, and should also be sufficiently costly that acquiring it takes sacrifice. Instead, what we have in practice is exactly the situation you describe - the only casters who end up persisting are the ones that can shake the cost, and the rest ignore it completely. It's exactly the same problem with Epic Spellcasting.



And the way psionic augmentation is handled, by persisting powers, it reduces the actually strength of the power. So a 20th level caster casting a persistent spell is getting a stronger effect than a manifester manifesting a persistent power of the same level.

That depends on the power. Some need to be augmented to get stronger, sure, but some don't - like Synesthete, Shadow Body or Energy Conversion. None of those are weakened by persisting.

[Mithril Leaf]

Which is horrible design. Something as powerful as having a minute/lvl or 10 min.lvl buff active all day should be inherently desirable, and should also be sufficiently costly that acquiring it takes sacrifice. Instead, what we have in practice is exactly the situation you describe - the only casters who end up persisting are the ones that can shake the cost, and the rest ignore it completely. It's exactly the same problem with Epic Spellcasting.

So we're in agreement about this. The reason that nobody uses the option is because it is prohibitively expensive. My proposition was to lower it's cost slightly and make it more reasonable a choice compared to similar expenditures of resources. When you have evidence that a less resources intensive option is almost never used, it doesn't seem like a logical conclusion to maintain that higher resource expenditure. It is horrible design to have options that are never a feasible choice. When you are balancing options for metapsionics, you have to factor in the flexibility of power point expenditure. Nine times out of ten I'd prefer to have all ninth level powers over a nearly even balance of ninth level powers and all day third level powers. When you bump that up fourth level powers it's a closer balance.


That depends on the power. Some need to be augmented to get stronger, sure, but some don't - like Synesthete, Shadow Body or Energy Conversion. None of those are weakened by persisting.
You are quite correct here however, I cede the point.

[Psyren]

So we're in agreement about this. The reason that nobody uses the option is because it is prohibitively expensive.

In magic it is prohibitively expensive. In psionics it's just expensive - as persist should be.

[Mithril Leaf]

In magic it is prohibitively expensive. In psionics it's just expensive - as persist should be.

I still don't think that it's quite worth a sixth level power and three feats most of the time, but that's mainly because of a lack of good psionic buffs. I'm content to agree to disagree on this matter. I doubt either of us will convince the other, it's mainly a playstyle type of choice and such. For me a 10 PP cost is the proper balancing point, for you it's 12. Either are viable options.

[Feint's End]

It's maybe also a question of optimization Level. How about 12pp in low to mid op and 10pp in high op? I know that might sound stupid but come to think about it 10pp isn't too strong if you compare it to high op techniques ala Incantatrix or DMM while in Low Op the 12pp seem fairer.

[Mithril Leaf]

It's maybe also a question of optimization Level. How about 12pp in low to mid op and 10pp in high op? I know that might sound stupid but come to think about it 10pp isn't too strong if you compare it to high op techniques ala Incantatrix or DMM while in Low Op the 12pp seem fairer.

That's probably fairly reasonable. I do tend to play higher op, so that's the position I made my points from. I probably wouldn't take it unless I specifically built for it because a huge feat tax like it requires hurts a lot.

[Vaz]

Perhaps include a clause that means it cannot be included as part of a Linked Power shenanigan?