Shadowrun 5th Edition

[Anderlith]

So the next edition of Shadowrun is coming out soon & I'm really excited. What do you guys think of the new edition? Has anyone gotten any hands on experience? What do you think of the Accuracy mechanic? Do you think that using the old Priority system with a dash of point buy is good?

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I Am Also Really Really Excited, Woooo

[DigoDragon]

Interesting that they went back to calling hackers Deckers again. I suppose for the nostalgic charm?

I'm not feeling it though. I wasn't a big fan of the old priority system or the old initiative system. 4e's straight point-buy was fine enough for me. Initiative was tricky in any edition because of characters with multiple IPs.
Overall, I'm still neutral.

[Anderlith]

Interesting that they went back to calling hackers Deckers again. I suppose for the nostalgic charm?

I'm not feeling it though. I wasn't a big fan of the old priority system or the old initiative system. 4e's straight point-buy was fine enough for me. Initiative was tricky in any edition because of characters with multiple IPs.
Overall, I'm still neutral.

Well it was kind of a big deal with identification & everything. You could only find "deckers" in Shadowrun. Plus, Rule of Cool, & it's cool to have a Cyberdeck

[Kaun]

have they actually given an official release date yet or is it still up in the air as "2013"?

I have been waiting for that Shadowrun Returns game to release as well. The rehash of the old NES game. Unfortunately it got pushed back to late next month.

Ow well, such is the way with indy games.

[Seerow]

have they actually given an official release date yet or is it still up in the air as "2013"?

I have been waiting for that Shadowrun Returns game to release as well. The rehash of the old NES game. Unfortunately it got pushed back to late next month.

Ow well, such is the way with indy games.


I hear ya. I saw the post saying it was going to be released on the 25th and got all pumped up about it, then reality hit me and someone pointed out the "July" instead of "June" and it's been a downer to me ever since.


And no, there is no official release date yet, which is completely inexcusable given that they've sent the book to the printers and already sold several hundred copies at Origins. I don't see how they could possibly be that far along and not know when they will be able to release it officially.

[Anderlith]

The PDF version is July 11th for $20, & the Hardback will be in August

[Kaun]

Im not so stressed about the SR5 release date. My gaming for the rest of the year is fairly mapped out so i doubt i would get a chance to run it until 2014.

I am keen to read through it though.

As much as i love Shadowrun i find myself getting weighed down by the volume of minor math when it comes to gear. This causes me to struggle some what when it running the game. Stuff like making sure my NPC's are suitably equipped and the like. Its not that it is difficult, just that there is often so much to take into account.

And it has been over 13 years since i have found anyone willing to run it so i can get a chance to play.

I have tried to stay away from any of the pre release chatter with this one.
My only real hope is that they streamline the absolute balls out of the hacking system.

I love the electronic subterfuge and warfare side of the game but it is so damn time consuming and often only involves one member of the group.
I had a technomancer in my last game and with all the threading and the rest of the bollocks it was like watching paint dry for the other players sometimes.

[Seerow]

I have tried to stay away from any of the pre release chatter with this one.
My only real hope is that they streamline the absolute balls out of the hacking system.


From what I read, you'll get your wish. But a lot of people are majorly upset about the way they went about making the decker more combat relevant.

[Anderlith]

From what I read, you'll get your wish. But a lot of people are majorly upset about the way they went about making the decker more combat relevant.

They can hack things like smartlinks... Suddenly all the enemies have their safeties ON & are locked out of their own gear.

They can manipulate the environment, remotely close doors & such, venting gas, or activating the sprinklers. Halting elevators that have reinforcements... esc.

Not to mention that they could always have a drone with them.

[Kaun]

They can hack things like smartlinks... Suddenly all the enemies have their safeties ON & are locked out of their own gear.

They can manipulate the environment, remotely close doors & such, venting gas, or activating the sprinklers. Halting elevators that have reinforcements... esc.

Not to mention that they could always have a drone with them.

Why couldn't they do this before?

I mean i get most good runners wouldn't get caught out by the smarlink thing with an intelligent counter electronic warfare PAN design.

But none of what you listed wasn't viable in sr4.

[Seerow]

Why couldn't they do this before?

I mean i get most good runners wouldn't get caught out by the smarlink thing with an intelligent counter electronic warfare PAN design.

But none of what you listed wasn't viable in sr4.

In SR4, it was entirely possible to turn wireless off for everything, so your gear was unhackable.

In SR5, they've added "Wireless bonuses", that only applies if you turn wireless on for your gear. These are things like Smartlink giving +2 dicepool (only gives +2 accuracy without wireless), and Wired Reflexes/Reaction Enhancers stacking (without enabling Wireless they don't work together).

[Kaun]

In SR4, it was entirely possible to turn wireless off for everything, so your gear was unhackable.

In SR5, they've added "Wireless bonuses", that only applies if you turn wireless on for your gear. These are things like Smartlink giving +2 dicepool (only gives +2 accuracy without wireless), and Wired Reflexes/Reaction Enhancers stacking (without enabling Wireless they don't work together).

ehh that doesn't sound promising.

SO no more running multi-pans and skin link to safe guard this kinda stuff?

Well i guess it might give the deckers more to do in a defensive roll as well, apart from setting up their groups gear.

[DigoDragon]

In SR5, they've added "Wireless bonuses", that only applies if you turn wireless on for your gear.

A little bit odd, but I can see what they were trying to do. Having a "double-edged" bonus can make for interesting decisions.



Not to mention that they could always have a drone with them.

My favorite SR4 character I made was a hacker who specialized in small drone combat. He treated them like pets and built a harness so he could carry them around on the job.
If combat happened, he'd just grab a drone and throw it like he's playing Pokemon.

I hope SR5 makes drone software more intuitive, like stats and skills for the runners. Even now i can still forget the details of clearsight, pilot, sensor, etc.

[Longcat]

From what I read, you'll get your wish. But a lot of people are majorly upset about the way they went about making the decker more combat relevant.

Apparently, you can also brick someone's cyberware if it's online. Which it apparently will be, since the Wireless bonuses are necessary to bring you up to the baseline performance you're used to from previous editions.

[Seerow]

Apparently, you can also brick someone's cyberware if it's online. Which it apparently will be, since the Wireless bonuses are necessary to bring you up to the baseline performance you're used to from previous editions.

I've seen from reputable sources that you can deactivate it with 3 marks (the way hacking is handled in the new system is each successful attempt gains you a mark. More marks = more things you can do), so you're looking at at minimum 4-5 actions (3 hacking checks, 1 deactivate command, and possibly a turn to actually spot the node in the first place) to deactivate a piece of cyber.

I've heard from less reliable sources that you can actually brick the gear entirely, rendering it completely unusable ever again. Those to me have typically sounded much more like rampant exaggeration, and until I see something more concrete from a reliable source that doesn't remind me of chicken little, I'm assuming it's untrue.

[LibraryOgre]

While 4e had a lot of conceptual mechanical advantages to earlier editions, I don't like that they dropped a lot of the slang from the books. I hope that "decker" will spell a return of other terms, like "chummer", "drek", and "fraggin' hoop-head."

[DigoDragon]

so you're looking at at minimum 4-5 actions (3 hacking checks, 1 deactivate command, and possibly a turn to actually spot the node in the first place) to deactivate a piece of cyber.

Not too unreasonable since in that time frame the other party's hacker decker should be countering those actions. Also, I'd like to assume that cyberware isn't going to have a wide broadcast range, which means the hacker decker needs to get in close to their target.
Well, it is like that with 4e anyway.



I hope that "decker" will spell a return of other terms, like "chummer", "drek", and "fraggin' hoop-head."

Me too, I found that the colorful language was some of the best fluff of the game. Plus, it's like swearing, but isn't teaching my daughter anything significant. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaun]

Not too unreasonable since in that time frame the other party's hacker decker should be countering those actions. Also, I'd like to assume that cyberware isn't going to have a wide broadcast range, which means the hacker decker needs to get in close to their target.
Well, it is like that with 4e anyway.

Wait no?!

The matrix in 4e is a mesh system... the hacker didn't need to get anywhere near their target as long as their target was near enough to something the hacker could contact and use as a repeater. That's why skinlink was so good, it let you disengage the wireless element of your ware.

[DigoDragon]

the hacker didn't need to get anywhere near their target as long as their target was near enough to something the hacker could contact and use as a repeater. That's why skinlink was so good, it let you disengage the wireless element of your ware.

If you leave cyberware at the default broadcast rating, sure. I believe cyberware signals default out to about 3 meters/9 feet. You might be safe in a open field, but not in an office building hallway.

However, cyberware can (and should) be given a broadcast range so low that the target has to be really close to a repeater to get a signal (my streetsam players always make it a point to keep their personal cyberware signals under a 1 meter range or so if not already skin-linked). Smart players always mod their equipment, so I don't think a hacker getting at their cyberware is going to be a common occurance.
And again, the team's own hacker should have a contingency to counter that rare occurance as well.

Now, for creativity points, a hacker can put a repeater on a drone and have that little bot get up close to the cybered target for your hacking needs... :smallwink:

[Hawriel]

More always on wireless cyberware that's more open than the "popular" girl drunk at party? Yeah no totally stupid crap. Im sorry but by the time your "hacker" even sets up for attacking a guys smart link hes already taken three rounds to the head.

Its not a modification to do something that should always be the standard default setting. It sounds like this skinwhatever is some kind of networking devise for cyberwere, or is it a sub dermal datajack for doctors? If so, why in the hell does some one need a dumb special skin what ever the **** it is, when almost all computerized cyberwere can be controlled by mental commands of the user?

What ever the thing is my friends and I way back with 2nd edition always assumed that cyberwere such as smartlinks, wired reflexes, or cyber eyes had a sub dermal sensor that would interface with what ever diagnostic devise a doctor or cyber technician would use. Then lo and behold Shadowrun came out with the sub dermal datajack to justify our assumption.

I do need to ask, what is this combat viable BS? A decker is a matrix specialist. They contribute to a run by handling the electronic side of a run. If you get into a fight you screwed up royally. Unless the run is wetwork. In which case the decker is not supposed to be the one doing the shooting.

Of course in a Shadowrun game the only thing you need to be "combat viable" was to have 4 dice in a gun skill, and the player not do any thing stupid.

from the thread it sounds like what ever dumb ideas to make shadowrun more like the real world and appealing to young kids, is continuing with 5th edition. Food for the power gamers, rules lawyers, and 3rd Ed D&D twits who think came mechanics are literal, and common sense is GM fiat.

[Kaun]

If you leave cyberware at the default broadcast rating, sure. I believe cyberware signals default out to about 3 meters/9 feet. You might be safe in a open field, but not in an office building hallway.

However, cyberware can (and should) be given a broadcast range so low that the target has to be really close to a repeater to get a signal (my streetsam players always make it a point to keep their personal cyberware signals under a 1 meter range or so if not already skin-linked). Smart players always mod their equipment, so I don't think a hacker getting at their cyberware is going to be a common occurance.
And again, the team's own hacker should have a contingency to counter that rare occurance as well.

Yeah my point was more that it was possible to do, not common.


Now, for creativity points, a hacker can put a repeater on a drone and have that little bot get up close to the cybered target for your hacking needs... :smallwink:

Any comlink would act as a repeater unless that core functionality was removed?.


More always on wireless cyberware that's more open than the "popular" girl drunk at party? Yeah no totally stupid crap. Im sorry but by the time your "hacker" even sets up for attacking a guys smart link hes already taken three rounds to the head.

In the last few games i have played, unless completely necessary, our hackers didn't get anywhere near the meat space mission area.


Its not a modification to do something that should always be the standard default setting. It sounds like this skinwhatever is some kind of networking devise for cyberwere, or is it a sub dermal datajack for doctors? If so, why in the hell does some one need a dumb special skin what ever the **** it is, when almost all computerized cyberwere can be controlled by mental commands of the user?

Well for top tier military spec gear, yeah, its safe to assume. But for a lot of the low rating stuff its pretty much just prosthetic limb replacement, OF THE FUTURE! and they put wire less transmitters in everything.
Civilian approved cybarware is more likely to come set up for ease of use of the shelf rather then maximized for electronic warfare counter measures.


What ever the thing is my friends and I way back with 2nd edition always assumed that cyberwere such as smartlinks, wired reflexes, or cyber eyes had a sub dermal sensor that would interface with what ever diagnostic devise a doctor or cyber technician would use. Then lo and behold Shadowrun came out with the sub dermal datajack to justify our assumption.

I do need to ask, what is this combat viable BS? A decker is a matrix specialist. They contribute to a run by handling the electronic side of a run. If you get into a fight you screwed up royally. Unless the run is wetwork. In which case the decker is not supposed to be the one doing the shooting.

Of course in a Shadowrun game the only thing you need to be "combat viable" was to have 4 dice in a gun skill, and the player not do any thing stupid.

from the thread it sounds like what ever dumb ideas to make shadowrun more like the real world and appealing to young kids, is continuing with 5th edition. Food for the power gamers, rules lawyers, and 3rd Ed D&D twits who think came mechanics are literal, and common sense is GM fiat.

you lost me through this bit. Hackers have a bunch of roles in a team, i think what they are trying to do is change the game a bit so all members of a team can contribute more in every situation without slowing the game down to much.

In the hope that its more fun.

cos its a game.

for fun.....

[The Random NPC]

Its not a modification to do something that should always be the standard default setting. It sounds like this skinwhatever is some kind of networking devise for cyberwere, or is it a sub dermal datajack for doctors? If so, why in the hell does some one need a dumb special skin what ever the **** it is, when almost all computerized cyberwere can be controlled by mental commands of the user?

Skinlink is a modification to the installed wireless that uses you bioelectrical system to interface with everything. You need to be touching the item in question with any part of your body to be able to interface with it. It can cause some thematic issues with implants, but the upgrade can also be applied to non-implants, meaning you can't control it by wireless.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah my point was more that it was possible to do, not common.

Ah, well I agree with that. Yes, it is possible. :smallsmile:



In the last few games i have played, unless completely necessary, our hackers didn't get anywhere near the meat space mission area.

In my experience, that's where issues occur because the party is "split up". It makes some sense since on average, hackers aren't very effective in a physical fight and are better off supporting the team remotely, but matrix fights mean the rest of the party is more or less milling about until the hacker is done (or well done).

I'd like to see if matrix combat changed any in 5th edition.

[Kaun]

I'd like to see if matrix combat changed any in 5th edition.

Yeah Amen to that.

I think it will be difficult to achieve with out loosing something from the game though.

[Anderlith]

Kaun & Digodragon.

Have either of you read the chapter into story about the run team? They bring a hacker with them into the facility because it's a closed network

[Kaun]

Yeah, my players just install remote uplinks into the network.

In their mind its better to have the hacker off site and out of harms way so the wombats can concentrate on keeping their own butts alive if stuff goes pear shaped.

Basically to get my hacker to go to a run (when i was running SR) i had to make sure the the site had Wireless screening, which blocked signals form passing through outer walls.

And even then they would run cable and set up repeaters for a run rather then bring the hacker.

[Anderlith]

Yeah, my players just install remote uplinks into the network.

In their mind its better to have the hacker off site and out of harms way so the wombats can concentrate on keeping their own butts alive if stuff goes pear shaped.

Basically to get my hacker to go to a run (when i was running SR) i had to make sure the the site had Wireless screening, which blocked signals form passing through outer walls.

And even then they would run cable and set up repeaters for a run rather then bring the hacker.

Well yeah, that's the smart option. I'm just throwing this out there for those that prefer the "don't split the party" mind set

[DigoDragon]

They bring a hacker with them into the facility because it's a closed network

Oh yeah, when I ran my Shadowrun games I had this kind of situation come up a lot. Corporate intranets were a common toy I'd use to ensure the team hacker didn't sit at home his entire career. :smallbiggrin:

I'd let them set up a backdoor if they put the effort into it, but the point was they had to put in the effort. It's funny the lengths a hacker will go to so that they can stay home.
Running gag with one of the team's more infamous hackers (George) was that he was shot only five times in his career. And every time it was in the butt because he was trying to run from a rent-a-cop that found him in the stairwell of the building the team was running in. :smallbiggrin:

[Werewindlefr]

A little bit odd, but I can see what they were trying to do. Having a "double-edged" bonus can make for interesting decisions.



The problem is that they had a very gamey approach to it. "Let's build the rule, and who cares if it doesn't actually make sense when you actually look at what it means in the game universe."

A great deal of the bonuses just don't make any sense, the greatest examples of all is the telescopic baton that extends faster if it's connected to facebook and twitter. That said, yes, the companies selling those could have removed basic functionality and put it on the matrix to "give more power to your toys" (or rather, to increase the control they have over their consumers), but I don't see high-threat security forces or shadowrunners using that gear.

This is what a lot of people (including me) are upset about. A fair number is also upset that once again, mundane/cybered characters are the ones suffering from this, when they weren't doing so well lately. In order to make others feel "more useful", they had to make streetsams the punching ball.

The rest of the edition is mostly an improvement over 4th edition. Incremental, but well done, so I will be playing it :).



I've heard from less reliable sources that you can actually brick the gear entirely, rendering it completely unusable ever again. Those to me have typically sounded much more like rampant exaggeration, and until I see something more concrete from a reliable source that doesn't remind me of chicken little, I'm assuming it's untrue.It's true. Core Rulebook, p. 228, section: "bricking", which says that if the matrix condition monitor is filled, the device fails spectacularly (with smoke, sparks, or even fire, according to the same paragraph).

Also, you need 3 marks and 1 action to deactivate a device in a clean fashion, but you can instead use only one decent matrix attack to destroy it semi-permanently (until it's has some fire extinguisher aimed at it and parts replaced). 1 roll instead of 4.

[TheCountAlucard]

Crap, I was so jazzed at Exalted Third Edition news that I completely forgot about this; well, time to see how easily I can update L3NN¥…

[TheCountAlucard]

So, I'm still only to the GMing section of the book at the moment, but so far, I'm liking what I see. The presence of GOD rankles me a little, but I think it's supposed to, and it's only my inner decker complaining; it ultimately serves as an inherent "race against the clock" mechanic for hackers, reminds me of the PC game, Uplink.

I likewise am not fond of bricking, but I understand that it's intended to be a callback to older works of cyberpunk. Still, if cyberware specifically can be targeted, that is a Bad Thing. Why? Because what happens when the superconductor wires that replace the street sam's nervous system get fried by some hoophead hacker? I could tell you the answer, but it's not pretty.

I take issue with this for the same reason I took issue with Turn to Goo in 4e - it's arbitrarily easy for a character to thus insta-kill a cybered character; turning back from a puddle of ooze, only to find your cyber skull sitting a few feet away, will not end well.

[Kaun]

Bricking is a worry yeah because of how deadly it could be, but when it comes down to it the average street sam can draw his hand cannon and thread a needdle with it at a 100m in less then a second.

I think what worries people is the fact you could get your wired reflexes bricked by some script kiddy on the other side of the world for lulz.

How difficult is it to brick cybarware?

Do we have official limiters of difficulties for it yet?

[TheCountAlucard]

…but when it comes down to it the average street sam can draw his hand cannon and thread a needdle with it at a 100m in less then a second.True, but at least that does damage. They don't require the GM to have to arbitrate the effects of missing a skull, or what happens when the wires hooked up to your motor cortex are suddenly gone.


I think what worries people is the fact you could get your wired reflexes bricked by some script kiddy on the other side of the world for lulz.Or, in my 4e example, some a-hole Mage could just take the thing out entirely while you're busy being a puddle, yeah.


How difficult is it to brick cybarware?I may just be blowing smoke, but I'm reasonably sure that the book explained that wireless gear usually has Matrix stats depending on its device rating.

But a decker can, IIRC, substitute their Firewall rating with his own. But at the same time, if a hacker manages to mark a device slaved to another, he gets a free mark on the master device. :smalleek:

[TheCountAlucard]

On that note, what do you lot think of the latest rendition of the introductory adventure? Fast Food Fight is set at McHugh's, because apparently the poor Stuffer Shack has suffered enough. :smalltongue:

[Anderlith]

Looking at the rules in the pdf... does anyone else want to have a torture scene with a decker with a cranial deck & Tag Eraser?

[TheCountAlucard]

Re: Bricking Cyberware: Found a relevant section, page 451…


Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the "moving parts" are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active.

[Anderlith]

Can anyone else figure out if Technomancers can be Riggers without an implant?

[TheCountAlucard]

Not sure, just yet. Even if they can't, though, they can have a sprite jump into a drone for them.

[TheOOB]

I think a key thing to remember about hacking and bricking gear/ware is home much rarer hackers/deckers are in 5e then they were in 4e.

First is the price barrier to entry, cyberdecks are expensive, super expensive. They are also very illegal to even have. Compare this to the relatively inexpensive and legal com links of yesteryear, and only a small fraction of people can afford them, and are willing to take the risks associated with owning one.

Second, hacking is much more dangerous. Any illegal act you do brings the demiGods down on you, even minor theft and vandalism can brick your deck and bring the star down on your hide if you aren't careful.

This means that deckers won't be found in the vast majority of gangs, and even in syndicates they will be rare. Corps won't use deckers for anything but the highest of HTR teams, as a single deck is worth more than an cyberware suite.

The vast majority of deckers will in fact be runners, so the vulnerabilities of wireless links will only be relevant on occasion.

Also for people worried about goons km's away bricking their ware, data spikes usually are not worth it with heavy static, they can backfire.

[TheCountAlucard]

I think a key thing to remember about hacking and bricking gear/ware is home much rarer hackers/deckers are in 5e then they were in 4e.Still not rare enough for such concerns to be alleviated.

First is the price barrier to entry, cyberdecks are expensive, super expensive.Less so, once you factor in the prices of all the progs you had to buy back in 4e. It's still more, admittedly, but a high-rated commlink and all the accessories, mods, and progs I got for it in 4e cost about a hundred thousand nuyen.

They are also very illegal to even have.…if you don't have a license for one; that's an R tag next to it. Even the highest-rating ones are just restricted.

Compare this to the relatively inexpensive and legal com links of yesteryear, and only a small fraction of people can afford them, and are willing to take the risks associated with owning one.Like corporate spiders, who have them.

Second, hacking is much more dangerous. Any illegal act you do brings the demiGods down on you, even minor theft and vandalism can brick your deck and bring the star down on your hide if you aren't careful.Where "careful" in this instance means "running three, four programs." Baby Monitor tracks your Overwatch Score, so you know when to drop out; Encryption and Armor will help reduce the Matrix damage so when they hit you it's not as hard; Sneak will stop your real-world location from being reported. And these progs cost literally a quarter of what a rating 1 hacking prog did in 2070, so a decker should have them.

This means that deckers won't be found in the vast majority of gangs, and even in syndicates they will be rare.I'm not seeing that; even with the threat GOD poses, a decker is too valuable for the Mafia, the Yaks, et al., to not want at least a couple on their payroll in a city they operate out of.

It's not like with magicians, where only a tiny percentage of the populace is awakened, and not a tenth of them aren't aspected; a decker largely just needs money and skills, so yeah, while the Halloweeners probably don't have a decker, you probably don't need to look beyond Seattle to find a street gang that does.

Also for people worried about goons km's away bricking their ware, data spikes usually are not worth it with heavy static, they can backfire.Noise from distance is also laughably easy to overcome. Ten kilometers is only Noise 3. Literally having a datajack is enough to reduce that. Pair that with Signal Scrub and that removes it entirely. And if local conditions produce enough noise to make a hacker think twice, that also means the character isn't getting his wireless bonuses in the first place.

[TheOOB]

Less so, once you factor in the prices of all the progs you had to buy back in 4e. It's still more, admittedly, but a high-rated commlink and all the accessories, mods, and progs I got for it in 4e cost about a hundred thousand nuyen.

But for corp or gang or syndicate hackers it was very possible for multiple parties to be using the same programs, thus saving a TON on hacking costs.

[/quote]…if you don't have a license for one; that's an R tag next to it. Even the highest-rating ones are just restricted.
Like corporate spiders, who have them.[/quote]

Spiders would be unlikely to use decks. They would more likely use desktop units to defend their buildings, unlimited slaved devices and programs, reduced cost and risk, and no noise in their facility. It's....debatable whether or not a given spider would have the ability to use data spike on the gear of someone who isn't connected to their host, as they are not inside of it, but they could screw with hackers, and control all the security measures.

A spider would only use a deck if they were very high level an expected to protect one or more facilities even while not clocked in.


Where "careful" in this instance means "running three, four programs." Baby Monitor tracks your Overwatch Score, so you know when to drop out; Encryption and Armor will help reduce the Matrix damage so when they hit you it's not as hard; Sneak will stop your real-world location from being reported. And these progs cost literally a quarter of what a rating 1 hacking prog did in 2070, so a decker should have them.
I'm not seeing that; even with the threat GOD poses, a decker is too valuable for the Mafia, the Yaks, et al., to not want at least a couple on their payroll in a city they operate out of.

Yes, a good and smart decker can be relatively safe and secure, but not every crim is that smart and has access to all the best software, hardware, and knowledge. The barrier for entry for hacking in 4e was fairly low, you could make a low-end hacking 'link for 5,000 easy in SR4, and the risks were low as well.

Syndicates will totally use deckers(though hackers using desktop units once again, may be more common), but they are unlikely to be guards or in strike or enforcement teams. A decker is going to go on special missions, or be brought in during extreme situations. Because of the rarity of his skills, and the costs of his equipment, he'll be every bit as valuable as a full magician(who are, by the numbers, much rarer in 5e than 4e as well).


It's not like with magicians, where only a tiny percentage of the populace is awakened, and not a tenth of them aren't aspected; a decker largely just needs money and skills, so yeah, while the Halloweeners probably don't have a decker, you probably don't need to look beyond Seattle to find a street gang that does.

Approximately 1% of the population is awakened in some form. Lets assume that 10% of that population are mystic adepts, people with knacks, and other rare weird things. To make things easy, we'll assume 40% adepts, and 50% magicians. Of those magicians, 90% are aspected(which aspected magicians are still very powerful and versatile), so we'll focus on the .05% of the population that are full magicians, which is one in 2,000 people(in reality, in a place like seattle there would be double or even triple or more that number, while in large rural areas that number would be much less. This means that full magicians are rare, but not unheard of.

On the other hand, very few people would be able to afford the hundreds of thousands necessary to afford a good deck, and fewer still will have the desire or the skills to use it(most people who have that kind of money don't work as criminals), meaning that a decker worth their salt is likely every bit as rare as a full magician.


Noise from distance is also laughably easy to overcome. Ten kilometers is only Noise 3. Literally having a datajack is enough to reduce that. Pair that with Signal Scrub and that removes it entirely. And if local conditions produce enough noise to make a hacker think twice, that also means the character isn't getting his wireless bonuses in the first place.

Any decker that has the skills to do that kind of stuff isn't going to do that kind of stuff against you unless they see you as an enemy of some kind. Yes, a wireless link makes you vulnerable(a tool mainly to make deckers on the team useful even when the mission doesn't have a hacking section), but you are very unlikely to be targeted by a random act of hacking. It's just as likely that a random awakened person convinces you to give them your gun on the street really(an adept, magician, or any aspected magician could pull it off, with little risk or consequence), but you don't hear players complaining about how overpowered influence is.

[Alejandro]

Mildly related: I am having a blast playing Shadowrun Returns. :D

[TheCountAlucard]

With your math, TheOOB, Mystic Adepts (as in, full magicians plus full Adepts) are more common than full magicians.

[TheCountAlucard]

On another note - what's to stop a decker from slaving his deck to a high-rated commlink (or better yet, another deck, if he's got the nuyen for it) specifically geared for defense? Doing so would mean you could configure the deck you're actually running with Firewall as its lowest stat and it wouldn't matter - since it's slaved to a machine with a higher Firewall rating, it gets to use that rating instead. :smallconfused:

If this is legit the way the rules were intended, I know how I'm building my next decker.

[Badgercloak]

So for 5th ed I'm going to venture into unknown territory: Rigger. The back story I'm working on is Ex-military Rigger who was aerial support/transport guy for his unit.

What equipment do you Playgrounders feel are essential for a Rigger? I've decided on Priority A for cash.

[TheCountAlucard]

Control rig, for one. Get it as high-rated as you can out of chargen. Get the device that lets you control a bunch of drones at once, too.

Since Attributes are important for Matrix characters again might as well go with some Reaction Enhancers.

Stuff to prevent jamming, of course. If you're a long way from the drone you're jumped into, and someone jams you, you're gonna suffer dumpshock, and that's gonna hurt.

On that note, some nice progs won't hurt either. Signal Scrub will prevent the noise that could otherwise shut you off from your drone, and Encryption boosts your effective Firewall, preventing the drone from being hacked or spoofed.

Drones and vehicles, of course. Ideally you want some for every situation; if a problem arises, a well-equipped rigger should be able to say, "I've got a drone for that."

The new edition doesn't have all the fun stuff for modifying drones, yet, so you might have to work those details out with the GM, or wait until after chargen to make the mods yourself.

[Kaun]

Mildly related: I am having a blast playing Shadowrun Returns. :D

I finished it on Sunday and was sad. It was a lot of fun but damn short. Maybe 5 or 6 hrs of game play.

It is set up for 3rd party content so hopefully people get some good modules out though.

Really awesome game.

[TheCountAlucard]

Okay, a few more things. Maybe I'm just not seeing it.

One, how does a commlink run in silent/hidden mode at all? Note that "hidden mode" appears precisely twice in the core book, and both times it's to describe a setting for one's commlink. However, silent running, which is where you're not broadcasting to everyone, is a Sleaze action, and commlinks explicitly don't have Sleaze attributes, and thus it seems that commlinks can't actually make those actions… meaning that literally anyone who makes a Matrix Perception test will always be able to find the SIN you're using (or note that you aren't broadcasting one), your PAN, and all the objects on it (which is all your objects) because you're broadcasting it for everyone to see.

Two, if that's the case, then how is broadcasting your location, identity, and your equipment across the Matrix for anyone who cares to look for it "right up there with ammo in terms of usefulness?" :smallconfused:

For that matter, let's assume commlinks can run silent. Since commlinks have "no space for cyberprograms or hacking tools," that means that you can only get maybe a minute out of running silent before GOD bricks your commlink and reports your location to the police because you took a Sleaze action. How is that "right up there with ammo in terms of usefulness?" :confused:

To clarify, a commlink can either run in silent mode, in which case the corporate anti-hacker measures will literally inevitably blow up your commlink and call the cops on you, or it can't, in which case going on a run with one is such a big security risk that you might as well call the cops on yourself and save them the trouble. This seems counter-productive. :smallannoyed:

[SassyQuatch]

One, how does a commlink run in silent/hidden mode at all? Note that "hidden mode" appears precisely twice in the core book, and both times it's to describe a setting for one's commlink. However, silent running, which is where you're not broadcasting to everyone, is a Sleaze action, and commlinks explicitly don't have Sleaze attributes, and thus it seems that commlinks can't actually make those actions… meaning that literally anyone who makes a Matrix Perception test will always be able to find the SIN you're using (or note that you aren't broadcasting one), your PAN, and all the objects on it (which is all your objects) because you're broadcasting it for everyone to see.
As I read it, according to p.244 silent running is not a Sleaze action. Detecting a hidden object is a Logic + Sleaze test but not an action in itself.

Or that's at least how I'm ruling on it.

[TheCountAlucard]

But, being a commlink, you don't have a Sleaze Attribute. It's not like not having Clubs and defaulting on a roll to whack someone with a 9-iron - it's like trying to doctor a digital picture when your computer doesn't even have MS Paint on it, let alone Photoshop. :smallconfused:

At least, as far as I can tell.

[Seerow]

I finished it on Sunday and was sad. It was a lot of fun but damn short. Maybe 5 or 6 hrs of game play.

It is set up for 3rd party content so hopefully people get some good modules out though.

Really awesome game.

It was closer to 12 hours for me. I can't imagine finishing it in under 8 or 9. 5 or 6 is crazy. Did you not read any of the dialogue?


So for 5th ed I'm going to venture into unknown territory: Rigger. The back story I'm working on is Ex-military Rigger who was aerial support/transport guy for his unit.

What equipment do you Playgrounders feel are essential for a Rigger? I've decided on Priority A for cash.

Like was mentioned Control Rig is your first priority. Besides that at least one tricked out vehicle and a couple of drones for different purposes are generally a good idea.

Also for fun, make sure to check out how the control rig interacts with vehicle speeds.

[Dragonus45]

I think anyone can turn it off so that it doesn't connect to the net, but if you want o be connected and not be seen its a sleaze action. Which comlinks can't do. and i figure they are as useful as bullet because of all the things you can do with them. Share enemy positions in real time with full video, count the bullets left in your gun and eject the clip with a thought, an overlay hud of the schematics of the building your in, complete with convenient mission beacons. The list goes on.

[TheCountAlucard]

See, but turning off the wireless on your commlink stops you getting all those bonuses. You either have to be physically wired to each gadget you want to interface with, which means you'll be a walking mass of fiber-optic cables (and it gets even more problematic if you wanna share details with teammates, and even then you still will miss out on many of the bonuses), or be broadcasting.

[SassyQuatch]

But, being a commlink, you don't have a Sleaze Attribute. It's not like not having Clubs and defaulting on a roll to whack someone with a 9-iron - it's like trying to doctor a digital picture when your computer doesn't even have MS Paint on it. :smallconfused:

At least, as far as I can tell.
Hmmm... still, turning the comlink on to silent is not in itself a Sleaze action and is activated by a simple action, so a Sleaze score is not necessary. So it can be activated, but in an opposed roll to evade detection it will be a straight Logic test.

I suppose that this helps to balance against the previous comments about how a high Firewall comlink can technically serve as a gateway for a decker. If any stealth is necessary your hidden comlink won't give you a Sleaze bonus to evade detection, but connecting through your deck can.

Maybe. So it would appear to me.

[TheCountAlucard]

I suppose that this helps to balance against the previous comments about how a high Firewall comlink can technically serve as a gateway for a decker. If any stealth is necessary your hidden comlink won't give you a Sleaze bonus to evade detection, but connecting through your deck can.Not really - you're not using the comm for stealth, you're slaving your deck to it for Firewall. If your comm can be hidden/silent consequence-free, then all you're doing with it is subbing its Firewall score for that of your deck, so your deck configuration can have Firewall as its lowest stat. If my stated reasons stop you doing it, then no runner concerned with not getting caught should ever bring one on a mission.

[Wolf_Haley]

I'm excited but i'm probably gonna wait till they introduce the rules for Point Buy.

[SassyQuatch]

Not really - you're not using the comm for stealth, you're slaving your deck to it for Firewall. If your comm can be hidden/silent consequence-free, then all you're doing with it is subbing its Firewall score for that of your deck, so your deck configuration can have Firewall as its lowest stat. If my stated reasons stop you doing it, then no runner concerned with not getting caught should ever bring one on a mission.
That's my point. You can't run a silent commlink consequence free. You shouldn't be able to do it consequence-free. Running silent with a commlink just makes it more difficult to find by replacing a single Matrix Perception Test with a Test to specifically look for hidden items followed by an opposed check. It works for what it is supposed to do, just not with what hackers want it to do.

[Alejandro]

What is 'GOD'? - someone who has not read any 5e material

[Tome]

Been reading through the rules after getting my hands on the pdf recently, and I've reached a couple of conclusions.

1. They seem to have left out half the rules for Riggers. Costs for Autosofts, the number of hacker cyberprograms you can run on a RCC, rules for modifying your drones in ways other than just adding weapon mounts etc.

2. Silent Running is utterly pointless. Any corp spider who doesn't have a few cheap Agents running around the Grid looking for icons in silent running 24/7 isn't worth the jing he's being paid. It's a flat 1 hit to detect silent running icons within 100m, for crying out loud (I'm assuming that you're smart enough to stay out of the Host unless you have to). It might not tell them where you actually are (until they actively look, that is) but the mere fact that there's an icon in silent running should be enough to put them on high alert.

3. Bricking gear is ridiculously easy if someone is foolish enough to leave their wireless on. A good willpower and a high rating commlink can make you more resistant, but just keeping the wireless turned off is the better option.

4. Some of the wireless bonuses don't seem to make sense. Some do, like the Biomonitor, while others are completely nonsensical. Such as the extendible baton. How the frag does connecting to facebook make my baton extend faster?

This is somewhat annoying to me - the uselessness of silent running more than the bricking thing or the bizzare wireless bonuses. I've been trying to figure out ways to deal with it.
Adepts & Mages: Only buy a Smartlink if you really need that +2 Accuracy bonus, and be sure to wire it to your goggles rather than leave it open to bricking. Aside from that, you don't care. Just turn off all your wireless.

Street Samurai: Again, only buy the Smartlink for the Accuracy bonus. Don't count on having access to any wireless bonuses you may have. Invest in a datajack or some trodes and wire your gear together so you can toggle wireless on and off as a free action. If you leave the wireless on any of your chrome turned on, you deserve what happens to you.

Decker: Despite being the matrix dude, you'll still want to keep your wireless turned off most of the time on a run just to avoid cluing the local spider (or his Agents more specifically) into the fact that you and your chummers are running around and trying not to be seen. Your decking will mostly be done by jacking directly into the devices in question, at least until you can manage to geek the enemy hacker. Hope you didn't think you could be an armchair decker in this edition omae.

Rigger: You are so fragged it isn't even funny. You know that thing you could do in previous editions where you'd send a drone ahead of you to scout out a run? Well that doesn't work any more. If you're using wireless then the spider knows you're there as soon as you get within a 100m of one of his agents (even if he doesn't know where, a silent running icon where there shouldn't be one is enough for him start actively looking - and you don't have a Sleaze attribute, so good luck staying hidden once that happens). Kind of makes you wonder how throwback drones and other comms tech is supposed to work? Hopefully there's some option for controlling your drones in future books that doesn't require you to be on the matrix.

Technomancers: Sort of like the decker, only without the option for a direct connection. Which means any use of your abilities pings the "somebody is sneaking around" alert on the spider's console. Which means you might as well wait outside with the Rigger. But hey, you could always Submerge (you can apparently do that at chargen now) and pick up Mind Over Machine so that the uselessness stays concentrated in one character.

I'm hoping I've made a mistake, but so far it looks like any run into a corp facility or other high security location makes the Rigger and Technomancer completely useless, simply because being in Silent Running is actually incredibly obvious if the enemy is smart enough to have agents posted around the local matrix (and they're cheap and effective, so I see no reason not to).


What is 'GOD'? - someone who has not read any 5e material

It stands for the Grid Overwatch Division. It's the corporate court-operated matrix security group. When they remade the matrix (again) they had an opportunity to give their own folks root access to pretty much everything, making them pretty much unassailable.

There's a stat to keep track of how close they to noticing you. When they do, you get hit hard. It goes up when you do anything illegal, they don't even have to roll for it.

Incidentally, they were mentioned in some of the 4E material. Emergence has at least one mention I know of, for instance.

[SassyQuatch]

*snip*
I will agree with your points. My previous points were only in relation to how it is possible to go hidden with a commlink, not that it was a great idea.

I'm increasingly disappointed with the evolution of the Matrix. Wireless access of any kind has become a total liability. Sure, some of the threats were present in 4e, but not in such a crippling manner.

Might be sticking with 4e. Return to priority system works some (except that a GM has a hrder time balancing encounters) but there is a lot of new bugs that will hurt gameplay.

[TheCountAlucard]

On the one hand, the reason I was looking forward to 5e was looking forward to a new-and-improved Matrix. On the other hand, as many holes as we've seen, I might go back to a previous edition if my 5e game doesn't pan out. Back on the first hand, I'm dreading going back to 4e's Matrix.

So I guess 3e will have to do. :smalltongue:

[Dragonus45]

I wonder, it seems that the only major issue here is that it is so painfully difficult to try and run silent of your not a decker. If you simply made it much harder to know that something is running silently within a hundred meters would that make things better?
Looking now and it seems to me its not quite as easy as described, you can only know if there is at least one thing in range running silently, and i think that's only within 100 meters of where you are physically, not where you are in the matrix. Yea, looks like that it is either 100 meters of you as a person, so no agents running 24 7 all over the building, or withing the same host. That seems like the kind of check that can get you lots of bloated and meaningless info when your in a host, and is somewhat limited in scope when compared to an entire building. Especially since its random what you find when you try to see what is hidden. So you could wind up finding a coworkers hidden porn stash instead of the hacker you think is in the building.

I don't see the bricking to be as much of an issue simply because if your decker is doing his job he is slaving your valuables to his PAN for the better hacking defenses.

[TheCountAlucard]

Here's the trouble with that. There's a hard cap on how many gizmos he can slave to his deck at once. Not only that, but any one device slaved to his deck that gets a mark made on it marks his deck too. A clever counter-hacker could hit devices on three of the runners' PANs and then shut off or brick the decker's deck before going to town on them.

[Dragonus45]

Here's the trouble with that. There's a hard cap on how many gizmos he can slave to his deck at once.

True, but i figure if your playing a decker resources is going to be a high priority for you. So your going to be able to at least a device rank 2 or 3, which gives you 6 or 9 devices respectively. My test character i even went all out and grabbed the most expensive one available at start, which i imagine wont be all that unusual for a decker to do.


Not only that, but any one device slaved to his deck that gets a mark made on it marks his deck too. A clever counter-hacker could hit devices on three of the runners' PANs and then shut off or brick the decker's deck before going to town on them.

Yea, but at that point for what he has to overcome he could just be hitting your deck straight. A slaved device gets your decks firewall plus your will. Same as if they were trying to hit your deck straight. I imagine that keeping your firewall stat high is going to be a high priority for most people.

[TheCountAlucard]

Thing is, the Decker's gonna notice when his deck is thus tagged. The same may not be true of the computer-illiterate street sam's smartgun system.

[Dragonus45]

Thing is, the Decker's gonna notice when his deck is thus tagged. The same may not be true of the computer-illiterate street sam's smartgun system.

Yea, but the decker can wipe a mark off himself, and nothing happens in a vacuum. While the enemy decker is trying to brick your ork buddies smartgun you can just be trying to geek his ass straight out, or at least make his life difficult while one of your crew does it for you. Plus if your ork buddy lets you mark his stuff you can remove the marks from his gun as well. The thing is in this edition the decker is going to be the EW guy, he keeps your stuff safe from marks, defends you from attacks and tries to shut out the other decker in a fight. If there isn't an enemy decker then your trying to gain whatever advantage you can bricking enemy guns or trying to brick their coms, or whatever else float your fancy.

[Asmodai]

Dragonus45, that's pretty much how i saw the role of the decker in 5e.

[Moreb Benhk]

My experience only goes back to Shadowrun 4E, but we almost never ran a hacker because weren't so much a group that was 'if you have to fight you've already screwed up', and hackers almost always had nothing hackery to do during fights, and if they were doing hackery things everyone was sitting around bored. To me the 5th Ed sounds like it's improved on things.

[SassyQuatch]

My experience only goes back to Shadowrun 4E, but we almost never ran a hacker because weren't so much a group that was 'if you have to fight you've already screwed up', and hackers almost always had nothing hackery to do during fights, and if they were doing hackery things everyone was sitting around bored. To me the 5th Ed sounds like it's improved on things.

Earlier editions often had groups making a "no deckers allowed" house rule, just because of how the flow of the game would be killed.

It's like a fantasy game where the party enters into the villain's lair just to get the special Druid in. Once in the Druid enters into a realm where time moves faster and that only he can see where he summons specialized creatures to do his bidding, fetching items and fighting for him and so forth. It all sounds kind of cool until you realize that the rest of the party is not present at all and are just sitting around waiting to have their turn.

Matrix rules haven't been improving much, for every step forward in streamlining actions there is a drawback. It's like the game creators thought "Hey, this would be cool!" "How do we do it?" "I don't know!" "Then let's wing it! Yeah!" and never gave the concept any amount of serious thought.

[TheCountAlucard]

On the bright side, at least 4e and 5e's Matrix stuff happens at the same "speed" as real-time; if the decker's hacking a mainframe, the street sam can have a gunfight and finish at the same time.

[SassyQuatch]

On the bright side, at least 4e and 5e's Matrix stuff happens at the same "speed" as real-time; if the decker's hacking a mainframe, the street sam can have a gunfight and finish at the same time.

That is about the only reason why I am contemplating returning to 4e or houseruling 5e instead of trying to work with previous editions.

[Moreb Benhk]

Has anyone experienced 5e in play?

[TheCountAlucard]

Been putting together a game for like a week now, actually, but coordinating players over Skype sure is a hassle. :smallsigh:

[ShadowFighter15]

Earlier editions often had groups making a "no deckers allowed" house rule, just because of how the flow of the game would be killed.

It's like a fantasy game where the party enters into the villain's lair just to get the special Druid in. Once in the Druid enters into a realm where time moves faster and that only he can see where he summons specialized creatures to do his bidding, fetching items and fighting for him and so forth. It all sounds kind of cool until you realize that the rest of the party is not present at all and are just sitting around waiting to have their turn.

Matrix rules haven't been improving much, for every step forward in streamlining actions there is a drawback. It's like the game creators thought "Hey, this would be cool!" "How do we do it?" "I don't know!" "Then let's wing it! Yeah!" and never gave the concept any amount of serious thought.

Speaking of the speed difference between Matrix and meatspace stuff in earlier editions; has anyone who's played those older editions tried something like what Shadowrun Returns does for its full Matrix work? Where you play through 3 turns as the decker in the system, then one turn with the rest of the team in meatspace, then three more with the decker and so on?

Because in one of the later missions in that, it did give a very interesting feel to it; like similar situations in movies where one character's off in a virtual/spiritual/other place (or just deeper inside a ruin or building) doing their thing and the camera occasionally cutting back to the rest of the characters holding the enemy off. Did anyone try something like that in older editions or did it still kind-of fall through?

[Asheram]

A question to you all who've seen the 5'th edition books. I took a peek in at the official Shadowrun forums and came across the Errata thread. The errata is starting to look quite massive and they claim that the first printing is already done so... Would you still recommend that one gets the books now? Or wait until they've "fixed" things in the next printing.

[Lord Raziere]

Yea I'm a total newbie who has 4e core book, is 5e worth getting? I have no clue if I should, but the setting as I read it is awesome.

[Tome]

A question to you all who've seen the 5'th edition books. I took a peek in at the official Shadowrun forums and came across the Errata thread. The errata is starting to look quite massive and they claim that the first printing is already done so... Would you still recommend that one gets the books now? Or wait until they've "fixed" things in the next printing.

Wait for the second printing, particularly if you wanted to play a Rigger. The first printing is chock full of errors and if you can hold off until they fix those in the book it'll save you having to cart around what looks to be several dozen pages of eratta already.


Yea I'm a total newbie who has 4e core book, is 5e worth getting? I have no clue if I should, but the setting as I read it is awesome.

Depends on what you can get games for.

Overall, 5e looks to be mostly a tweaked and polished version of 4e (barring a few stupid bits). However, as mentioned above, the current printing of the core book needs some hefty eratta.

Also, 4e has all of it's supplements out already. The core supplements are very useful in shadowrun, to the point where the core rules will basically say "Sorry, couldn't fit rules for this in the core, check upcoming supplement X for this instead" in certain places.

But mostly, see what you can get games for.

[TheCountAlucard]

I learned how borked Riggers are when I saw vehicle speeds - one of the cars goes like 720 kilometers per hour, but on the opposite side is a fixed-wing aircraft that moves too slowly to actually fly. And that's before the rigger jumps in; he can make that car go even faster.

Also some things that seem relevant get mentioned once without being clarified or mentioned again, and some stuff is just nonsensical. You're more likely to survive ramming your 300+ mph (again, before a rigger jumps into it) racing bike into a brick wall without wearing a helmet than you are to bump your van into a shopping cart at walking speed.

[Kaun]

I learned how borked Riggers are when I saw vehicle speeds - one of the cars goes like 720 kilometers per hour, but on the opposite side is a fixed-wing aircraft that moves too slowly to actually fly. And that's before the rigger jumps in; he can make that car go even faster.

Also some things that seem relevant get mentioned once without being clarified or mentioned again, and some stuff is just nonsensical. You're more likely to survive ramming your 300+ mph (again, before a rigger jumps into it) racing bike into a brick wall without wearing a helmet than you are to bump your van into a shopping cart at walking speed.

buh 720kmph?

Are there rules for acceleration? I mean unless that thing does 0 to 200 in under ten seconds that top speed is going to be next to useless.

[TheCountAlucard]

There's an Acceleration rating for vehicles, and one or two references are made to using Acceleration Tests, but I failed to find any actual instance of such stat even being used.

Speaking of riggers, I won't be able to properly adapt him for a few books yet, but in the meantime I at least made a drawing of my old hacker/rigger character. :smallsmile:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa100/TheCountAlucard666/image_zps750b3fba.jpg

[Lorin]

I have a little question: removing cyberlimb will restore an essence? It is conter-intuitive, but i don't see mechanic for essence holes like in previous edition. So i put it blantly: can i rip off my cyberhand in order to replace my eyes?

[TheCountAlucard]

No. Removing cyberware just leaves you with the same Essence and that piece of cyberware gone. Though Augmentation clarified that if you replaced said 'ware with something similar enough, it would only eat Essence beyond the prior 'ware's cost. So if you got a cyberlimb that cost 1.2 Essence and later replaced it with a newer, better one that cost .8 Essence, it wouldn't take any more Essence from you, but if the upgrade was more Essence-intensive, say, 1.5 Essence, you'd still only be down 1.5 Essence, not 2.7.

Augmentation also introduced means of replenishing your Essence after having a piece of 'ware stripped out of your body - you basically spent a few weeks immersed in a vat full of your own DNA or somesuch, and when you come out at the end, it's with .1 Essence restored. You obviously can't replenish this lost Essence beyond the value the 'ware took, and you can't replenish Essence from it until the piece of 'ware is removed.

Also, it's absurdly expensive.

[Lorin]

well, i know as much, just didn't find this in 5th edition. Well, thanks for the answer!

[Roncorps]

Soooo, should I get 5th or keep building up my 4th with all the books that are gonna going on sale this autumn ?

[TheCountAlucard]

Neither. 3e, all the way. :smalltongue:

[SassyQuatch]

Soooo, should I get 5th or keep building up my 4th with all the books that are gonna going on sale this autumn ?
Stick with 4e. Maybe in a few years the glitches will be worked out in 5e, but for now you would be better off sticking with what you already have.

[Roncorps]

Neither. 3e, all the way

Yeah, I would, but I did the very stupid thing of selling all my books (all the core stuff + 4-5 sourcebooks) when I was younger ... Now, if I want to build it up again, the cost is damn too high.


Stick with 4e. Maybe in a few years the glitches will be worked out in 5e, but for now you would be better off sticking with what you already have.

Will do or will go with 3th. I did not see much "Wow" factor with the 5th as of now, but maybe something good will come of it later, like the 20th anniversary ed. of 4th.

[Lorin]

Ok, looks like we are gonna play Shadowrun really soon.

And, well, we encountered a little problem. Optimization. I am a dedicated follower of "batman" style of gaming. Have contingency for everything, including contingencies and contingencies for them too, so i am playing filthy rich cyberninja, with chrome samurai, mystic adept and technomancer. And, well, as i said, we have a little problem. Our Technomancer wants to be a "face" of the group and he also wants to be completely SINless (also he wants an addiction for the VR games and, since he is penniless - he wants to hack their servers on a regular basis in order to... well... play a VR games). Also he wants to have some forbidden equipment. I think this is a really bad idea - he thinks nothing of it. So, is it really a bad idea: being a SINless face with a some forbidden equipment? Also, on a smilliar note: our St. Sam wants to have a grenade launcher. It is also forbidden of course. I am also not a fan of this idea. So, is it really bad or i am just paranoid? If someone can provide good examples of how it is not goint to work out - i'll be really gratefull to you, chummers. Also, DM wants to clarify one thing: if St. Sam have all of his limbs replaced with cyberlimbs - in which cases his natural strength and agility will play a role?

[Lorin]

Ok... our Technomancer have a new idea... Well, he is planning to use some sleep gas if he met any security on the run. It is not so bad by itself... but his contingency... "if gas will not help - firethrower, acid is better - not many have protection from this"... So... should i worry now?

[Earthwalker]

Our Technomancer wants to be a "face" of the group and he also wants to be completely SINless (also he wants an addiction for the VR games and, since he is penniless - he wants to hack their servers on a regular basis in order to... well... play a VR games). Also he wants to have some forbidden equipment. I think this is a really bad idea - he thinks nothing of it. So, is it really a bad idea: being a SINless face with a some forbidden equipment?

Alot depends on the GM. I never see being SINless as a problem it appears to be the default asumption. When we play everyone does pick up fake SINs tho.
Again having forbidden equipment just means don't get caught with it on you, or get some fake paperwork for them.


Also, DM wants to clarify one thing: if St. Sam have all of his limbs replaced with cyberlimbs - in which cases his natural strength and agility will play a role?

I think you just get the average of all four limbs so your old natural str / sgi don't matter at all.


Ok... our Technomancer have a new idea... Well, he is planning to use some sleep gas if he met any security on the run. It is not so bad by itself... but his contingency... "if gas will not help - firethrower, acid is better - not many have protection from this"... So... should i worry now?

Where is he getting a flame thrower, or an acid thrower ? Also he might want to watch out for security mages casting fire based spells on him. I imagine you don't like fire if you have a flame thrower complete with fuel on your back.

[Tome]

Being a Face without a SIN (or more specifically, a Fake SIN) is workable, but it's also severely hamstringing yourself. Because there are all sorts of places where not broadcasting your SIN doesn't just mark you out, it's actually illegal, and the Face is the one guy who doesn't have the option of just sneaking around the back (because to be a Face, you need to talk to people, and sneaking around generally means avoiding them instead).

Not to mention that in SR, being a unwashed bum does in fact apply a penalty on most social rolls. Getting at least a low rating Fake SIN and a month's low lifestyle would be an excellent idea in this case.

Forbidden equipment generally isn't a problem, just don't get caught with it on you and you're fine. Which means either hiding it on your person, or leaving it behind when you expect official scrutiny.

The grenade launcher is fine, it won't attract much more attention than an assault rifle would (IE only bring it when the plan is either to not be seen at all or where firepower is a big concern), but don't expect it to see much use - I hope the player has another weapon he can wield. Explosions are big, loud and attract a lot of attention. They also leave bodies behind, which is bad. Corps tend to be a lot more vigorous in their pursuit if you kill their employees, and people start coming after you for payback. The collateral damage also helps push the corporate profit/loss ratio more in favour of tracking you down.

Which also applies to the idea of the acid or flame thrower, only more so. Those things are war crimes. Start hosing corp security down with one of those and you expect a major manhunt after you - the PR issues make it pretty much mandatory for the corps, even assuming you didn't manage to accidentally burn down their buildings whilst you were at it. Unless you expect to be clearing out bug hives or something, leave them behind. If you want, point out to him that things generally don't have any particular resistance to bullets either (and bullets are cheap).

There's a really good section about this in the 4E Runner's Companion, but it basically boils down to shadowrunners being able to get away with what they do because there's no profit in tracking them down once they've finished their job. Killing people and blowing stuff up gives them reasons too. I'd recommend giving it a read if you can get your hands on it.

The sleeping gas grenades are an excellent idea though. Pepper Punch in a gas grenade is 45 nuyen a pop and likely to put most folks down for the count. Just make sure you have a gas mask and some points in Throwing Weapons.

Of course, this all depends on where your game falls on the old Pink Mohawk - Black Hat scale.

[Lord Raziere]

Of course, this all depends on where your game falls on the old Pink Mohawk - Black Hat scale.

I read some people talking about pink mohawk (basically loud bellicose risky action type cyberpunk from what I could deduce from it) but whats this scale thing? can you please explain?

[LibraryOgre]

I read some people talking about pink mohawk (basically loud bellicose risky action type cyberpunk from what I could deduce from it) but whats this scale thing? can you please explain?

Basically, most Shadowrun games (and Shadowrunners) fall somewhere on a non-standardized scale from pink mohawk to black sunglasses. I don't know of a standard scale, though I'd lean towards A-E (with my personal biases be to A being All Black Sunglasses, while E is All Pink Mohawk).

[Tome]

I read some people talking about pink mohawk (basically loud bellicose risky action type cyberpunk from what I could deduce from it) but whats this scale thing? can you please explain?

The two terms indicate opposite extremes of the gameplay styles normally seen in shadowrun, though the opposite to pink mohawk is sometimes called different things (mirrorshades/black hat/black trenchcoat/etc).

So a game more on the pink mohawk side tends to feature katanas, car chases and lots of action. Meanwhile a mirrorshades/black hat/black trenchcoat/etc style game tends to feature more legwork and subtelty for the run, requires planning and preparation and is usually more cerebral.

The scale I was referring to was the hypothetical middle ground between the two, since most games aren't strictly one or another but may have strong leanings. The advice I was giving was more for a mirrorshades/black hat/black trenchcoat/etc style game - since that's what I lean towards myself - pink mohawks should grab their grenade launchers and get ready to make some noise. :smallbiggrin:

[Lorin]

Well, our game should be closer to the black hat. Our mast likes that sort of games. Cause and effect and so on. That's also why i am trying to be prepared for everything or almost everything. Other players, though, do not share my point of view. Sammy looks ok, as MysAd. New to system, a little clueless, but ok. While technomancer... some of his plans really rub me in the wrong way. There was looong discussion about how he could make creditsticks think they have more money then they should.

Oh, by the way, a little question about a system: should "editor" trigger databomb?

[Daisuke1133]

should "editor" trigger databomb?

If the character doing the editing did not defuse the databomb or input the proper passcode, then yes it would.

[Tome]

There was looong discussion about how he could make creditsticks think they have more money then they should.

Well, look at it this way. He's not so much a team mate as he is a short term investment - wait for the bounty to hit five digits then turn him in. Should take, what, a couple of hours, tops? :smalltongue:

He could totally try that, right up until he uses the money, at which point it gets verified by the Z-OG. They flag it as a forgery of course, and your technomancer friend gets to learn what the megacrops do to folks who try to forge nuyen.

Might I suggest giving him a copy of the venerable CLUE files to read?


Oh, by the way, a little question about a system: should "editor" trigger databomb?

Yes. Databombs trigger if you try to read, edit, copy, protect, delete, or put another Data Bomb on the file without defusing it/inputting the proper password. Check P. 242.

[Lorin]

Well, also said this to him. But he begin to talk how "editor" is different and that it is not "just" edit files and that it is a complex form and he go on and on about this... also pointed aout to him this page, he wasn't really convinced, so i asked here. Maybe i've got something wrong.

[Asmodai]

CLUE files?

[Lorin]

Collection of stories about most horrible (and funny) runs ever.

CLUE (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/shadowrun/clue-files.html)

[Tome]

Well, also said this to him. But he begin to talk how "editor" is different and that it is not "just" edit files and that it is a complex form and he go on and on about this... also pointed aout to him this page, he wasn't really convinced, so i asked here. Maybe i've got something wrong.

Databombs don't specify any particular action. It doesn't say "Edit File", it just says edit.

He can try to argue that "Editor" doesn't count as editting, but the appropriate response here is laughter (or application of the rulebook to the face, check the faq for the damage code).

[ShadowFighter15]

Yeah, like Tome said - Editor edits files; a data bomb is set off when someone or something tries to edit the file. And the Edit File action is just one way to edit a file. Now if the Set Data Bomb action specifically mentioned the Edit File Matrix Action, it would be another story.

[Asheram]

Can someone please explain what "link-locked" is? It's put forward like it's the bane and doom of all deckers but its never explained how its performed.

[Aux-Ash]

Link-locking is when you prevent your target from switching interface mode (between Hot-Sim, Cold-Sim and AR), leaving or entering a host or rebooting. You basically force them to be alive and stay where they are (in the matrix). This is bad since the only means of escape is Jacking Out, so unless you're prepared to do that you're entirely at their mercy.

To put someone under a Link-Lock you cause damage to them while using a Lockdown program. Black IC, Grey IC and Tar Baby IC all cause Link-Lock when they cause damage as well.

[Asheram]

Link-locking is when you prevent your target from switching interface mode (between Hot-Sim, Cold-Sim and AR), leaving or entering a host or rebooting. You basically force them to be alive and stay where they are (in the matrix). This is bad since the only means of escape is Jacking Out, so unless you're prepared to do that you're entirely at their mercy.

To put someone under a Link-Lock you cause damage to them while using a Lockdown program. Black IC, Grey IC and Tar Baby IC all cause Link-Lock when they cause damage as well.

Gods, now I feel stupid. It feels like I was looking everywhere but there in the programs.

[Badgercloak]

So quick questions for Riggers: If there is no or reduced Matrix presence, like in space or the deep sea, do drones still work? What is the max distance you can use a drone at?

[TheCountAlucard]

As long as you and your drone are close enough, it doesn't matter if there's one or none or a thousand devices between the two of you. As for max distance, it depends on the Device Ratings of the drone and the gadget through which you control it, as well as any means of reducing Noise you have.

[Badgercloak]

Thanks, that's what I thought. My group is mostly new to SR in general and we're learning 5 as we play.

[TheCountAlucard]

Though I'd like to point out that deep-sea's not really viable, because salt water messes up wireless signals so badly. You might have Noise 3 some distance from your drone on land, but if you're the same distance away under the sea, it'd be like Noise three million. :smalltongue:

[druid91]

So, I've been looking into shadowrun recently... and was wondering what the folks here in the playground would recommend as far as a newb looking to get into shadowrun?

I'll be honest, the commentary here on decking is sort of discouraging...

[Deathkeeper]

I've been trying to get into the game, too. I've been told the new edition is very approachable, so I'm seeing if I can get my hands on the physical print copy.

[TheCountAlucard]

Try the QuickStart adventure module they published; it's available for free.

[The Random NPC]

So, I've been looking into shadowrun recently... and was wondering what the folks here in the playground would recommend as far as a newb looking to get into shadowrun?

I'll be honest, the commentary here on decking is sort of discouraging...

I would try 4th Ed, that has much better decking rules (as in decking is possible).

[Tome]

So, I've been looking into shadowrun recently... and was wondering what the folks here in the playground would recommend as far as a newb looking to get into shadowrun?

I'll be honest, the commentary here on decking is sort of discouraging...

Decking works fine, it's just that it's a bit more gamist than simulationist as opposed to previous editions. The actual rules are solid, probably better than previous editions', it's just that implications of them don't make even the slightest bit of sense when you think about them. Hopefully they clear some of that up when they bring out Data Trails, the matrix supplement.

If you've heard complaints about the rules for decking they probably revolve around one of three things; Cyberdecks are expensive. After the cheap entry cost of the previous edition, a lot of folks don't like this and it does have something of an effect on character progression and expected rewards.
Wireless bonuses make absolutely no sense in a lot of cases. The rules are perfectly understandable, but the question of how being connected to facebook makes your blades extend faster is still unanswered to most folks' satisfaction.
Technomancers are resource intensive for minimal return compared to just being a Decker. A lot of folks are quite rightfully disappointed.

If you're getting into 5E then there's only the one book so far, the core rules. You'll probably want to pick up some of the older setting books just for the fluff though. Sixth World Almanac, Storm Front, Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life etc.

For 4E you'll want to core rulebook and then Arsenal, Augmentation, Runner's Companion, Street Magic and Unwired, which expands the rules for various bits of the game. Followed by the same sorts of setting books that you'd be picking up for 5E.

[Lorin]

ok, and here is my new set of questions!

And, of course, most of them are related to our technomancer.

First: is unsuccesfull attempt to bruteforce\hack of the fly host from the outside really is repercussion-free (well, aside from overwatch)? Or host can anwser to the unsuccesfull sleaze actions (for example launch dataspike or, maybe, launch IC, or they can't in any way leave host?)
Second: can host itself do something to the intruder inside said host (for example let's take the same dataspikes) aside from IC.
Third: Automated Taxi have this set of devices:
RFID-tags
Internal security cam
+(f) data log
Outside security cam
+(f) data log
Controll system (autopilot connected to the GridGuide and detection system)
+ inside controll system
SIN scanner + Universal Port
(f) access log
(f) routes log
DM is curious: is he overcomplicating things?

[Aux-Ash]

Wireless bonuses make absolutely no sense in a lot of cases. The rules are perfectly understandable, but the question of how being connected to facebook makes your blades extend faster is still unanswered to most folks' satisfaction.

I figured it was because it eliminates the need to manually activate the mechanism.
Without wireless you have to use the blades control panel and activate it in order to extend them, whereas if it's wireless you do it through your commlink.

With a Direct Neural Interface (implanted, trodes or through a datajack) you activate them with nothing more than a thought or reflex. Without any DNI it's more difficult to explain though (A combat shortcut on the control panel?).

So it's less "auto-extend requires internet access" and more "this function can be activated through the commlink reflexively".
The only reason it's connected to the Matrix is because the Commlink is. If you turn either's matrix access off it no longer can recieve signals and thus not be activated with a thought.

Unless you connect it and the commlink with wires of course... but that's probably a bad idea.

[Daisuke1133]

I figured it was because it eliminates the need to manually activate the mechanism.
Without wireless you have to use the blades control panel and activate it in order to extend them, whereas if it's wireless you do it through your commlink.

With a Direct Neural Interface (implanted, trodes or through a datajack) you activate them with nothing more than a thought or reflex. Without any DNI it's more difficult to explain though (A combat shortcut on the control panel?).

So it's less "auto-extend requires internet access" and more "this function can be activated through the commlink reflexively".
The only reason it's connected to the Matrix is because the Commlink is. If you turn either's matrix access off it no longer can recieve signals and thus not be activated with a thought.

Except that this isn't how it works. A wired connection to your DNI doesn't do a bloody thing in 5th edition, and slaving a device to your commlink just lets that device use the link's firewall attribute for matrix defense. Unless the device is wirelessly connected to the matrix it doesn't get the wireless bonus

[Aux-Ash]

ok, and here is my new set of questions!

And, of course, most of them are related to our technomancer.

First: is unsuccesfull attempt to bruteforce\hack of the fly host from the outside really is repercussion-free (well, aside from overwatch)? Or host can anwser to the unsuccesfull sleaze actions (for example launch dataspike or, maybe, launch IC, or they can't in any way leave host?)

An unsuccesful attempt to mark a host (and you cannot use Enter Host without a mark) warns the owners and it's spiders that someone tried to get access. It's only when attempting to switch Grids that the demiGods are not warned.


Second: can host itself do something to the intruder inside said host (for example let's take the same dataspikes) aside from IC.

If the Spider is currently keeping an eye on it, yes. They could also shut it off...


Third: Automated Taxi have this set of devices:
RFID-tags
Internal security cam
+(f) data log
Outside security cam
+(f) data log
Controll system (autopilot connected to the GridGuide and detection system)
+ inside controll system
SIN scanner + Universal Port
(f) access log
(f) routes log
DM is curious: is he overcomplicating things?

I think that's what the taxi ought to have if that's what you're asking.


Except that this isn't how it works. A wired connection to your DNI doesn't do a bloody thing in 5th edition, and slaving a device to your commlink just lets that device use the link's firewall attribute for matrix defense. Unless the device is wirelessly connected to the matrix it doesn't get the wireless bonus

I know the rules does not cover connecting your stuff through a wire. Perhaps because said wire would likely constantly get in your way unless it's implanted? Whether this is an oversight or not I cannot tell.

And yeah... the device must be connected to the matrix in order to have wireless connection.
The reason is rather simple really: It's because the matrix is everywhere. You don't really have to put these devices in a PAN to use their bonus (and you probably don't want to... since the PAN can only cover so much), they recognice you as the owner anyways. But they do so through the matrix. And even if they are in a PAN, they're still tangentically connected to the matrix.
If you want to keep it on a "separate" network you must put it in a WAN (also known as a Host).
Either it's wireless reciever is switched on, and thus it's connected to the Matrix (because of it's omnipresence). Or it's not... at which point it cannot recieve any wireless bonuses.

The only two cases where this does not makes sense is if:
The commlink is connected to the device through a wire. Which is not covered by the rules for some reason, like I mentioned above.

You're in an area isolated from the Matrix. Which makes no sense at all since the Commlink and the baton/blades/bipod/tripod ought to be able to communicate with one another regardless.

[Tome]

I know the rules does not cover connecting your stuff through a wire. Perhaps because said wire would likely constantly get in your way unless it's implanted? Whether this is an oversight or not I cannot tell.

And yeah... the device must be connected to the matrix in order to have wireless connection.
The reason is rather simple really: It's because the matrix is everywhere. You don't really have to put these devices in a PAN to use their bonus (and you probably don't want to... since the PAN can only cover so much), they recognice you as the owner anyways. But they do so through the matrix. And even if they are in a PAN, they're still tangentically connected to the matrix.
If you want to keep it on a "separate" network you must put it in a WAN (also known as a Host).
Either it's wireless reciever is switched on, and thus it's connected to the Matrix (because of it's omnipresence). Or it's not... at which point it cannot recieve any wireless bonuses.

The only two cases where this does not makes sense is if:
The commlink is connected to the device through a wire. Which is not covered by the rules for some reason, like I mentioned above.

You're in an area isolated from the Matrix. Which makes no sense at all since the Commlink and the baton/blades/bipod/tripod ought to be able to communicate with one another regardless.

You're kind of missing the point here. The reason we're saying these bonuses don't make sense, is because you explicitly do not get the bonus if you're using a wired connection. You need to be on the matrix. Those two exceptions you mentioned where it doesn't make sense? Those are the ones we're complaining about!

According to the rules, DNI doesn't matter. Interface doesn't matter. Connecting to your commlink doesn't matter. All that matters to get your wireless bonus is that the device in question has it's wireless turned on, and is thus hackable (which is the reason that wireless bonuses were introduced, to give hackers something to do in combat). If a DNI or a commlink were what you need for the bonus is some cases, because that would make sense, that'd be fine, but it's not.

Forearm snap blades are far from the only offenders here. For the most part, the wireless bonuses that don't make sense are those that really be requiring a DNI (whether wireless or not) or wired connection instead.

Wiring up your gear is more common than you'd think. It was the default throughout 1E-3E, and a version of it (Skinlink) was incredibly common in 4E too. And the rules don't fail to cover what happens in this case. They do cover it: You don't get the bonus. And with hacking devices in combat having been made easier, the motivation for just turning your wireless is stronger than ever.

[Aux-Ash]

Yeah, I got that much. The problem is that these particular devices are covered by the same rule as things that autoadjust for windspeed and stuff. That and that a normal commlink does not include a Trode (or "better") yet the rules seems to, at times, assume it does.

Interestingly... the rules does mention both wiring your stuff and that DNI is mandatory in a tangentical case. I direct you to page 163 and the Free Action "Change Linked Device Mode": which specifically mentions that you must have both a DNI and either a wireless or a wired connection to them for it to be a Free Action.
Note that this detail is completely lacking in the equipment section about turning the wireless off on page 421. The same page that discusses how the wireless bonus works.

So my guess would be that it's an oversight? They forgot to mention wiring, that Trodes are not included automatically and/or to separate Wireless bonus and Matrix bonus?

[Tome]

In the case of the forearm snap blades, you're using the Ready Weapon action, modified by it's wireless bonus to be a free action, rather than the Change Linked Device Mode action. Same for all of the other 'connect to draw faster' weapons like extendible batons.

The more applicable example here is changing firing modes on a smartgun. The description of Change Linked Device Mode would indicate that a wired DNI connection would suffice for doing so as a free action, however the text for the smartgun system itself identifies it as being a Wireless Bonus, and therefore requiring a wireless connection (and not even a wireless connection to you, just to the matrix in general).

Meanwhile, regular firearms (p242) get this same benefit, changing modes as a free action as a Wireless Bonus, save that here it explicitly requires a DNI. No mention of a wired connection is made here, so we still can't do it with a datajack like we always have.

So there seems to be a contradiction here, and possibly even an implication that Wireless Bonuses might be achievable with wired connections? That would make much more sense (I had a good look through the various wireless bonuses, and for the most part all but a few of them come down to 'why can't I do this with a wired connection').

Except that we have dev confirmation that Wireless Bonuses cannot be gained with wired connections (and p421 explicitly states you need to be on the matrix - can't do that with a wired connection for the most part). Which leaves back with things not making any sense.

If certain wireless bonuses could be gained with a wired DNI I'd have no problems with them. Unfortunately things have been explicitly designed so that's not an option for metagame reasons (IE giving hackers something to do in combat).

[Aux-Ash]

The designers said that, did they? Oh well... I'll concede the point then and say: yeah... that's stupid. The entire thing is full of obfuscating language, contradictions and redundancies. And to top it off with that... tsk tsk..

Kind of silly... they could've focused on the strengths of being Matrix connected a bit more. Such as that a smartgun can include a function to prevent it from firing in a Friendly fire situation. That'd be a damn good reason to keep it online all the time.

[Thanatos 51-50]

So, I've recently gotten my grubby mitts on the 5e PDF and I ended up rolling a Physical Adept, because that's apparently A Thing That I Do.

This particular PhysAd ended up being a generalist gunfighter, with a specilty in Semi-Automatic pistols, for the Rule of Cool.
Now, here's my problem: I'm looking for a Tradition for this character to take for when I start with the Inititation Grades -- for flavour, mostly, because it doesn't really matter to a PhysAd.
The character has a Code of Honour (Do Not Harm Bystanders, No Collateral Damage), and follows the Wise Warrior Mentor Spirit (Because Adepts can follow Mentor Spirits and get bonuses from it now).

I'm trying to think up a semi-Heroic (Because she is an Hero -- or as close to one as a Shadowrunner gets) Martial Arts Tradition that doesn't turn around, metaphorically smack her across her pointy elvish face and say "No! Guns bad!"

My first though was maybe something like Wushu (Because Wuxia is a film genre and not a Martial Art), but a friend reccomended Ninjutsu, and I don't feel like any of them really *fit* Calamity correctly.
So: What kind of Traditions are there out there for Gunfighter PhysAds in the first place? Which ones are semi-heroic? What should Calamity follow?

[LibraryOgre]

She follows the Code of the West, the mythical tradition of fair play among gunfighters. Her Wise Warrior might manifest as any of the 50s and early 60s era film stars. I favor John Wayne in The Cowboys, if only because it gives you a reason to play John Williams' excellent opening fanfare.

[Anderlith]

Gunkata? Perhaps Krav-maga?

[hiryuu]

She follows the Code of the West, the mythical tradition of fair play among gunfighters. Her Wise Warrior might manifest as any of the 50s and early 60s era film stars. I favor John Wayne in The Cowboys, if only because it gives you a reason to play John Williams' excellent opening fanfare.

Or Toshiro Mifune's ronin theme.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Perhaps Krav-maga?

If I do this, the Wise Warrior is totally going to be Sam Fisher.

Of special note: I am specifically trying to avoid American Old West themes.

[Asmodai]

How about the Wise Warrior being Chow Yun Fat in a white suit, with shades and two holstered guns under his coat? You could play at any of his characters who were villians and then decided to choose the right way at the end (and most likely die in the process).

You could easily build this up into a whole initatory group based off the gunmen of Hong kong cinema. They as a group don't even need to be all heroic.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I actually started thinking about using Jade Empire's The Way of the Closed Fist.

The problem with using the Heroic Bloodshed tradition is that she is not a dual-wielder. While she technically *can* dual-wield, to her, Dual-wielding is for chumps, and real gunfighters use the Center Axis Relock.

[TheCountAlucard]

So, as someone who never got the last few books to have rolled out before 5e, what exactly is the situation in Denver right now? Stuff I've seen seems to indicate some serious stuff went down there, largely involving or at the behest of the game's oft-reviled pet NPC, Harlequin, and now Aztlan has a toehold again? :smallconfused:

[DigoDragon]

largely involving or at the behest of the game's oft-reviled pet NPC, Harlequin, and now Aztlan has a toehold again? :smallconfused:

That's what I heard as well from some wikis, with the events going down around 2075, but I haven't found concrete evidence. I've never liked the Harlequin character, and I largely ignore him in my Shadowrun campaigns, but the idea of rioting in Denver and large-scale political upheval sounds like my group's cup of tea.

[Slipperychicken]

rioting [...] large-scale political upheval

With how bad the game says life is, you'd think that the common folk/wageslaves in Shadowrun would at least try to protest their conditions. Even if their movements were mostly smashed, like in the early 20th century (and even then it brought relatively long-lasting labor reforms), people would still try it once in a while.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's what I heard as well from some wikis, with the events going down around 2075, but I haven't found concrete evidence. I've never liked the Harlequin character, and I largely ignore him in my Shadowrun campaigns, but the idea of rioting in Denver and large-scale political upheval sounds like my group's cup of tea.

It's been a while since i read Storm Front but basically Harlequin went insane for a while, summoned a toxic ally spirit that got free and started trouble (getting gangs to attack the cops among other things) and started a big fight with Ghostwalker (the dragon that rules Denver) in front of cameras. He ended up wounded but the fight was stopped by Frosty iirc.
Suffice to say, it's complicated. :smalltongue: Your best bet is to read the relevant chapter if you can get your hands on the book.


With how bad the game says life is, you'd think that the common folk/wageslaves in Shadowrun would at least try to protest their conditions. Even if their movements were mostly smashed, like in the early 20th century (and even then it brought relatively long-lasting labor reforms), people would still try it once in a while.

The corps and government keep the wageslaves compliant with sims, drugs and cheap food.
Also, unless your a highly skilled professional you're utterly replacable. There's droves of SINless who would cheerfully sell their soul to get a "cushy" job and a legal SIN working for a corp. Implant some cheap cyber and you don't even have to train them (skillwires ftw).
Even having a ****ty job is preferable to getting fired (and thus losing your corp-provided home, the corp-provided education for your kids, your SIN, medical care and any hope of ever getting a legal job again). If that happens you'll probably end up in the barrens and at the mercy of gangers, drugdealers, organleggers, ghouls and whatever other horrors you see on the trid.
People don't dare complain too loudly.

[HMS Invincible]

Did they change the stun damage rules? I'm referring to when you taser someone full of stun damage, do they get knocked out when the stun bars are full? I only see a reference to stun damage turning to physical, physical turns to unconscious, and unconscious turning to death as you take more and more stun damage.

[The Random NPC]

Did they change the stun damage rules? I'm referring to when you taser someone full of stun damage, do they get knocked out when the stun bars are full? I only see a reference to stun damage turning to physical, physical turns to unconscious, and unconscious turning to death as you take more and more stun damage.

Yes, Initiative and Stun now work differently. IIRC, initiative is: Roll your initiative score and add the total to your score. Then for every 10 points of initiative you have, you get an extra pass. Stun now causes -5 to initiative.

[HMS Invincible]

You answered my question pretty vaguely. Luckily, google backed up your vague answer into a better one. "they forgot to include the line 'filling up any damage tracks K.O.'s you, but they reference it in other sections'."

[The Random NPC]

Oops. I wasn't even thinking about Stun Vs Lethal damage, only the tasering effect of Stick N Shock type ammo.

[LibraryOgre]

I remember in 3rd edition accidentally killing people with a stun baton... an adept, from stealth, can dump A LOT of dice into smacking someone.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I remember in 3rd edition accidentally killing people with a stun baton... an adept, from stealth, can dump A LOT of dice into smacking someone.

It's very unlikely for that to happen in SR5. You'd need 10+ net hits and somehow boost your weapons accuracy for that. I'm not even sure it's possible to get the accuracy on a stun baton that high.

[LibraryOgre]

Hmmm... an effective increase in accuracy sounds like it would be a neat adept power. You know, the "Grab a random weapon and use it like it's a high-quality katana"?

[TheCountAlucard]

I remember in 3rd edition accidentally killing people with a stun baton... an adept, from stealth, can dump A LOT of dice into smacking someone.Got a similar story from SR4 involving flinging a quarter at someone for stun damage. :smallamused:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hmmm... an effective increase in accuracy sounds like it would be a neat adept power. You know, the "Grab a random weapon and use it like it's a high-quality katana"?

There is Enhanced Accuracy but it's a one-time +1 accuracy per weapon skill increase. And that's the only accuracy boost i'm aware of that works on melee weapons.

A Stun Baton has accuracy 4 so you're a long way off accidentally killing someone unless their stun is already almost full.
Shockgloves could work since they use your physical limit. You'd have to be a troll adept with high physical stats across the board though.
And then there's the question why you'd want to kill someone by accident.:smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

There is Enhanced Accuracy but it's a one-time +1 accuracy per weapon skill increase. And that's the only accuracy boost i'm aware of that works on melee weapons.

A Stun Baton has accuracy 4 so you're a long way off accidentally killing someone unless their stun is already almost full.
Shockgloves could work since they use your physical limit. You'd have to be a troll adept with high physical stats across the board though.
And then there's the question why you'd want to kill someone by accident.:smallsmile:

I don't, but it was an amusing artifact of a previous edition.

In my runs, the best ones are ones where no one dies. Why? Because dead people cause more problems in the long run than those who get knocked out and tied up.

[TheCountAlucard]

Why do we want to allow for the possibility of accidentally killing someone with stun damage? Verisimilitude. Tasers and other "non-lethal" means of subduing have killed people before. Sometimes knocking someone out without killing him is startlingly hard; anesthesiologists have a really difficult job.

That, and that silly flaw about not killing; as it is, the rules in 5e are so slanted against accidentally killing with stun that they had to include a "did I accidentally kill him instead" roll in the flaw itself do as to make it meaningful.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why do we want to allow for the possibility of accidentally killing someone with stun damage? Verisimilitude. Tasers and other "non-lethal" means of subduing have killed people before. Sometimes knocking someone out without killing him is startlingly hard; anesthesiologists have a really difficult job.

That, and that silly flaw about not killing; as it is, the rules in 5e are so slanted against accidentally killing with stun that they had to include a "did I accidentally kill him instead" roll in the flaw itself do as to make it meaningful.

That's fine, but none of this is a reason to purposefully optimize a char for killing with stun damage. :smalltongue:
You can still kill someone with a taser if he has already taken some stun damage. And some of the toxins are rather powerful and can easily kill someone if you don't drag them out of the gas after they go down.

But knocking a normal, healthy human from full health through physical and overflow with a taser is pretty much impossible unless you try really hard.

[Jeivar]

Could someone clue a clueless person in?
I've played older Shadowrun systems with my friends a few times, though not enough to get a really firm grip on it all.

I do know my group is interested in giving the new system a try, and I'll probably join them and convince the ST to let me play a vampire. He allowed it in a previous system but that game never really got going properly.

What I like about the vamp-runner concept is playing a completely ordinary, non-murderous person who suddenly becomes a bloodsucking monster and has to turn to a crazy violent lifestyle to survive. :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

Could someone give me the gist of the 5th Edition vampires? Abilities and point cost? And how does the feeding work?

[TheCountAlucard]

Unfortunately, there aren't any rules for playing as a vampire PC yet in 5e; to be fair, the core book only came out a little while ago.

[Vknight]

I'm kind of. Ok very very sad with 5th edition. It seems they took all the cool, clever, on innovative things that came about from a wireless matrix has been lost to make a return to the statusquo. All for very little

Also I hate that hackers once again are the most obvious thing ever if not more so now that everyone uses 'Commlink' now

[TheCountAlucard]

Ok very very sad with 5th edition.Join the queue. :smallsigh:


It seems they took all the cool, clever, on innovative things that came about from a wireless matrix has been lost to make a return to the statusquo.Err, no… a decker being able to remotely explode your cyberarm has never been "status quo." This is something altogether different, though their attempts to put various setting cats back into their respective bags is a tad irksome.


Also I hate that hackers once again are the most obvious thing ever if not more so now that everyone uses 'Commlink' nowImplanted deck; just make it modular so that you can take it out for repairs (which you will need to do :smallannoyed:), or swap it out for a better one (again, something that you'll have to do) without requiring major surgery.

Or, for something less invasive, crack open a cheap RCC and solder in all the electrical components from the deck; now you look like a crappy rigger instead. :smalltongue:

Hell, since the 'deck of 2075 only takes up the space of about two iPhones glued together, there exists a veritable plethora of things you could disguise it as, especially since it no longer has to be connected to other gear with cables. It could be a belt buckle, or built into a drone of yours. You could even stash the thing in a pocket in a pinch, and entirely interact via a set of trodes (which can, in and of themselves, be disguised as a hat, headband, hairnet, or really anything that covers a good-ish part of your cranium).

Or, y'know, be a technomancer.

[Tehnar]

I don't know, the biggest mess about 4th edition was the matrix. I didn't go too far into 5E but I like what I see from matrix rules so far.

What I don't get is the limits/accuracy, why is this even there? They don't serve any purpose, as barring extraordinary luck you will never reach those limits.

Wireless connectivity for cyber is also a bit strange but I will delay judgement until I see how easy it is to actually hack someones cyber.

[DigoDragon]

In my runs, the best ones are ones where no one dies. Why? Because dead people cause more problems in the long run than those who get knocked out and tied up.

My group used to have a bit of joke with that. The length at which Lonestar will hunt you down is proporional to the amount of paperwork you made them fill out at the crime scene. On a Friday night.

Dead bodies require a *lot* of paperwork. :smallamused:



a decker being able to remotely explode your cyberarm has never been "status quo."

Yeah, I think there was only one incident of a decker/hacker shutting down a piece of cyberware in my experience. It was a suit and he was using an off-the-shelf model that didn't get it's wireless signal turned off.

[TheCountAlucard]

Not cyberware, but my recent PbP of the Shadowrun Denver Missions' "Parliament of Thieves" had a hacker hack the rigger's van. While she was driving it. Also, the team's hacker crashed a Yakuza's car.

[Rhynn]

What I don't get is the limits/accuracy, why is this even there? They don't serve any purpose, as barring extraordinary luck you will never reach those limits.

Actually, I got the impression that it's pretty standard in 4E for characters to roll 20+ dice on their specialties (at least in specialties that have enough "support items," like anything social), which is why I immediately liked Limits...

I actually think I might port them over into 4E, because I don't really like anything else in 5E (and I love me some wireless Matrix and never had a problem with the 4E conception, having hated Cyberpunk 2020/Neuromancer style nonsense super-VR hacking for almost 20 years of playing cyberpunk games).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I agree with that. While the SR5 matrix rules are a lot simpler they are also a lot more limited than the SR4 ones.
Another thing that bugs me about the new rules is that hacking is so expensive now, to the point where being a decker pretty much excludes anything else.

In SR4 it wasn't uncommon for characters to pick up a secondary role.
Shaman/Face, Mage/Hacker, Rigger/Hacker, Adept/Hacker etc.
You can still do that in SR5 with most roles, but picking up a decent cyberdeck pretty much wipes out your resources.
I find making a decent decker is already pretty tight on chargen. There's just no room to add a secondary role.
And picking up hacking later on during gameplay is pretty much impossible since you'd have to play every week for several years to afford a good cyberdeck.

[Rhynn]

Did the discussion touch on the difference in competency between 5E and 4E starting PCs? It looks to me like 5E starting PCs would have to be built with anything from 450 to 550 points (or maybe even close to 600) in 4E, depending on the priority choices.

[Tehnar]

I agree with that. While the SR5 matrix rules are a lot simpler they are also a lot more limited than the SR4 ones.
Another thing that bugs me about the new rules is that hacking is so expensive now, to the point where being a decker pretty much excludes anything else.

In SR4 it wasn't uncommon for characters to pick up a secondary role.
Shaman/Face, Mage/Hacker, Rigger/Hacker, Adept/Hacker etc.
You can still do that in SR5 with most roles, but picking up a decent cyberdeck pretty much wipes out your resources.
I find making a decent decker is already pretty tight on chargen. There's just no room to add a secondary role.
And picking up hacking later on during gameplay is pretty much impossible since you'd have to play every week for several years to afford a good cyberdeck.

I think you can make a fairly solid hacker/SAM type. Just max the wealth priority, and you can afford a solid 'deck and plenty of basic cyber (I went with Wired II, Reaction enhancers II, muscle toner II and cerebral booster II).

From what I gather a deck sets your limit for offensive stuff and is part of your defense on defensive actions. So a 5,4,4,2 deck is fine to start; you probably won't reach those limits with any starting characters anyway.

The bigger problem is the payouts for runners, which is far too low compared to the gear involved.

[Rhynn]

The bigger problem is the payouts for runners, which is far too low compared to the gear involved.

That's been an argument among SR players forever, pretty much... does the book now give "standard payments" somewhere? (I haven't nearly waded through all 480 pages).

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's been an argument among SR players forever, pretty much... does the book now give "standard payments" somewhere? (I haven't nearly waded through all 480 pages).

The official missions go with a payout of 10000 nuyen per runner as the standard, adjusted for difficulty and length. Often enough it's less than that.
And that's without figuring in expenses like ammo, bribes, new fake SINs...

[Rhynn]

The official missions go with a payout of 10000 nuyen per runner as the standard, adjusted for difficulty and length. Often enough it's less than that.
And that's without figuring in expenses like ammo, bribes, new fake SINs...

Yeah, that definitely sounds like "street-level" play; runners living in flophouses or squatting, getting by with the same old fake SIN and hoping they don't have to burn the identity, scraping by... something like Neuromancer's Case or When Gravity Fail's Marid Audran, punks who might stumble over something big but aren't meant for it.

I've always been attracted to that sort of play, but given the nuyen available in Shadowrun character creation (and required for cybernetics or, again in 5E, cyberdecks), the bar is going to be set rather higher.

It's a bit of a weakness in a game; a cyberpunk game should support Neuromancer -level play just as much as it supports Count Zero/Mona Lisa Overdrive -level play (or Shadowrun Returns vs. Deus Ex -level, if you will). But it's pretty easily solved by the GM and players working together to set expectations.

Incidentally, I ran the numbers and came up with 543 BP in SR4 to create a human Dog shaman I made in SR5 (Metatype E, Attributes A, Magic B, Skills C, Resources D). I almost want to dig out my 3E book and see whether 4E or 5E priorities are a closer match to that one, just out of curiosity.

[sleepyphoenixx]

My main problem is that you can literally fit out 5 to 10 other archetypes with the cost of a single high end cyberdeck.
It makes some sense in the case of karma-advancement characters like mages and adepts who get by without much cash, but even riggers and streetsams can buy an arsenal of drones, vehicles, guns and cyberware for that kind of cash. Stuff being expensive is fine. But cyberdecks are so far out there that they're pretty much unattainable after character generation for a street level runner.

As a decker you get your cyberdeck (that you won't be able to upgrade anytime soon, if ever)... and you're very much in danger of getting it irreparably damaged during a run or if you get a bad roll on a repair test. Even a crappy replacement (that will probably not stand up to the stuff your groups level of play demands) sets you back by 5-10 runs worth of payouts (if you live on the street and eat trash). And you'd better forget about getting any kind of useful backup.

The other archetypes can get back on their feet with a few thousand nuyen of emergency cash. A decker is f*****.
If that happens you're not only useless without heavy handed DM intervention, you pretty much lose a year or two worth of advancement on a single failed dice roll.

If you increase rewards to the point where a cyberdeck is affordable all the other archetypes will be literally swimming in money, and those who are primary karma-advancing get left behind fast. Increasing karma gain to match doesn't really work either since it really messes up the sense of achievement.

[Rhynn]

I pretty much agree. I think SR4 makes a lot more sense of hacking in general: cold/hot sim isn't required, it was slowed down to real-time (well, "superhuman reflexes" real-time with sim), and any script-kiddie with a commlink and the programs can try to spoof a vending machine for some NERPSI.

If cyberdecks are super-expensive, this suggests to me that they're way beyond computers, and should offer hacking functionality (and, probably, speed) way beyond computers. This is the case in, e.g., Cyberpunk 2020 (with the right supplements, anyway): regular computers are incredibly slow on the 'Net (compared to cyberdecks), but can perform all functions normally (and don't have that whole lethal biofeedback problem). No pro is going to try a run/op with a computer, but it's theoretically possible against a low-security target.

It's a dilemma, because I like a lot of SR5's changes (including the character creation and limits, for instance; I like that Essence affects Social Limit, too), but a lot of it is cruddy, and I have huge trouble finding explanations for a ton of things using the text and index (a lot of gear entries, for instance, directs me to pages with no useful info or sometimes nothing on the topic at all).

[sleepyphoenixx]

While some stuff in SR5 is nice i doubt my group will be converting anytime soon. The lack of supplements alone makes it a very hard decision.
By the time the SR5 magic and matrix supplements are out they'll hopefully have some errata in place.
Until then you're probably better of implementing the changes you like as houserules. The systems aren't that different after all.

[The Random NPC]

The official missions go with a payout of 10000 nuyen per runner as the standard, adjusted for difficulty and length. Often enough it's less than that.
And that's without figuring in expenses like ammo, bribes, new fake SINs...

My copy of the book says the base cost is 3,000 nuyen, modified for difficulty. And if it's a feel good mission, the price drops 10-20%.

[DigoDragon]

And if it's a feel good mission, the price drops 10-20%.

That depresses me a little bit. :smalltongue:

Yeah, it makes sense that dirtier jobs are going to cost more because not as many runners will want them. Still, it really drives home the dark gritty world of Shadowrun.

[HMS Invincible]

Anyone know if you can start the game with specialization ? As far as I can tell you can only buy specialization with karma. Not char gen points.

[Rhynn]

Anyone know if you can start the game with specialization ? As far as I can tell you can only buy specialization with karma. Not char gen points.

You can use your chargen karma (the 25 plus any from negative qualities you have left, of which you can only keep up to 7 when leaving chargen) to buy specializations, but you don't need to:

Page 88, last paragraph on the right, states...
"Along with skill ranks, players may also want to use their poinst to purchase specializations."

And page 89, first full paragraph on the left states...
"At character creation, a specialization costs 1 skill point. No individual skill may have more than one specialization [in character creation]"

[sleepyphoenixx]

My copy of the book says the base cost is 3,000 nuyen, modified for difficulty. And if it's a feel good mission, the price drops 10-20%.

That's the base cost for a mission without any opposition, as calculated by the totally idiotic system SR5 sets up. Punishing your players for playing smart and avoiding conflict is just stupid.

10000 nuyen is the average given for the official SRM missions by one of the missions writers in the forums. The missions from the SRM 4 campaign usually pay about 6000-8000 nuyen and 3-4 karma and are generally designed around being completed in a 4-5 hour session iirc.

A homebrew campaign will probably have longer runs that take several sessions to complete so you'll want to pay more. Also, official missions don't take into account any kind of looting.

[HMS Invincible]

You can use your chargen karma (the 25 plus any from negative qualities you have left, of which you can only keep up to 7 when leaving chargen) to buy specializations, but you don't need to:

Page 88, last paragraph on the right, states...
"Along with skill ranks, players may also want to use their poinst to purchase specializations."

And page 89, first full paragraph on the left states...
"At character creation, a specialization costs 1 skill point. No individual skill may have more than one specialization [in character creation]"

I wasn't being clear. You're agreeing with me that you can only buy specialization with karma. Unlike attributes, which you can buy with char gen points or karma

[Rhynn]

I wasn't being clear. You're agreeing with me that you can only buy specialization with karma. Unlike attributes, which you can buy with char gen points or karma

I don't understand what you're saying at all. I quoted the rules saying that you can buy specializations with character creation skill points (the one you get for assigning your Skills priority). You can also buy them with Karma at the end of character creation.

So uh, no, I'm not agreeing with you?

[The Random NPC]

That's the base cost for a mission without any opposition, as calculated by the totally idiotic system SR5 sets up. Punishing your players for playing smart and avoiding conflict is just stupid.

10000 nuyen is the average given for the official SRM missions by one of the missions writers in the forums. The missions from the SRM 4 campaign usually pay about 6000-8000 nuyen and 3-4 karma and are generally designed around being completed in a 4-5 hour session iirc.

A homebrew campaign will probably have longer runs that take several sessions to complete so you'll want to pay more. Also, official missions don't take into account any kind of looting.

Do you know where I might find this method of generating nuyen rewards?

[Slipperychicken]

The official missions go with a payout of 10000 nuyen per runner as the standard, adjusted for difficulty and length. Often enough it's less than that.
And that's without figuring in expenses like ammo, bribes, new fake SINs...

That number doesn't include negotiation or loot. If you've ever played D&D, you know the surest path to wealth is to strip every body clean and fence everyone's belongings for cash.

Speaking of which, can one take a SIN off a dead foe, then use it as a fake? If so, could one fence it on the black market as such?


Do you know where I might find this method of generating nuyen rewards?

Page 375-376.

[TheCountAlucard]

Since SINs run off biometrics, purchase data, criminal and credit history, and a thousand other factors, anyone else's SIN is gonna effectively be, at best, Rating 1 in your hands: enough to maybe get by something that's just there to ask, "Do you have a SIN?"

As such, you could probably sell it, but it won't be for a hell of a lot, and it certainly won't be enough to offset how much your murder-happy tendencies set you back in the long run.

[Rhynn]

That number doesn't negotiation or loot. If you've ever played D&D, you know the surest path to wealth is to strip every body clean and fence everyone's belongings for cash.

Yeah, that's definitely the Marid Audran/Case -level of play, rather than "professional operatives" ... which I think may be the intention. Shadowrunners are petty criminals, not corporate professionals.


Speaking of which, can one take a SIN off a dead foe, then use it as a fake? If so, could one fence it on the black market as such?

SINs are tied to a commlink ("SINs essentially exist on your commlink," SR 5E page 443), so you'd presumably have to take the commlink... then you'd have to hack some corporate and government data havens to check that the SIN is any "good"... meanwhile, if the corpse is found, the biometric data is probably being matched up to the SIN, and the person is being declared dead - you'd have to get rid of this death report - digital resurrection, baby!

Identity theft from the dead is a thing, for sure, but it's not exactly easy. It's probably not going to be worth a lot, if anything - I doubt I would, playing a runner, buy such a dead person's SIN over getting a fake one made, unless it was the only option. If you need a SIN fast, it might be the quick option, and if you just want one for going to the store (e.g. not likely to be checked, except maybe cursorily in a traffic stop) it might be the cheap option.

Edit: Thinking about the implications of technology (and magic, and so on) like this is probably my favorite part of any cyberpunk setting. :smallbiggrin:

[Aux-Ash]

SINs are tied to a commlink ("SINs essentially exist on your commlink," SR 5E page 443), so you'd presumably have to take the commlink... then you'd have to hack some corporate and government data havens to check that the SIN is any "good"... meanwhile, if the corpse is found, the biometric data is probably being matched up to the SIN, and the person is being declared dead - you'd have to get rid of this death report - digital resurrection, baby!

Identity theft from the dead is a thing, for sure, but it's not exactly easy. It's probably not going to be worth a lot, if anything - I doubt I would, playing a runner, buy such a dead person's SIN over getting a fake one made, unless it was the only option. If you need a SIN fast, it might be the quick option, and if you just want one for going to the store (e.g. not likely to be checked, except maybe cursorily in a traffic stop) it might be the cheap option.

Edit: Thinking about the implications of technology (and magic, and so on) like this is probably my favorite part of any cyberpunk setting. :smallbiggrin:

Actually... when you think about it. Taking the SIN from a dead person means it comes with a full background and biometrics from the get go. It would save the forger tons of money and time to just use an existing SIN and tweak just a little, rather than try to create one from scratch. It's quick, easy and fairly safe (and if someone important is handed in, they could tip of the interested parties for a small fee).

I dare say that you could probably expect Fake SINs up to rating 4 to be scavenged of dead people (or if your forger is the callous type, outright murdered for their SIN). Up to that rating it only sort of have to be correct after all. It's only 5+ that includes correct biometrics.

It's only a matter of matching the buyer to your own library of SINs and handing them one that fits good enough. Creating one is a much more thorough process.

[Rhynn]

It's only a matter of matching the buyer to your own library of SINs and handing them one that fits good enough. Creating one is a much more thorough process.

It's really tricky, though. You have to digitally resurrect the person (or make sure they're never found after dying), and you probably can't use the SIN for someone that had family, since they'll report them missing and there'll be extra attention on the SIN. Corporate SINs are probably right out in this case, too, since the corporation will probably have an alert on the SIN the moment it's used (in part exactly because of SIN theft; corps will have extra motivation to find their missing persons for reasons of security, and a lot of their employees can't just "quit"). The mere fact somebody has a SIN makes it much more likely there are people out there who will be looking for them if they disappear. (In fact, I imagine a standard type of job private investigator-deckers might be keeping tabs on the Matrix on the SINs of missing people!)

A fake SIN created from scratch lacks all of these complications. It's going to be slightly more complicated to create, but you need to hack into a SIN database/data haven in either case (at the very least, when "recycling" a SIN, you need to see all the data associated with it; and more likely you'll need to switch all the biometrics). It's not actually more difficult to fake one, I'd say, because the difference is essentially just a matter of taking longer. The complications of using a dead person's SIN versus the chance that you have holes in your fake SIN are a wash - we can't really say which is going to be a bigger problem on average.

Also, if you have a library of SINs sitting and waiting to be matched to future clients, they're going to essentially "go bad" over time: they're going to have very suspicious gaps in their purchase histories and other recorded data (unless, again, you hack into the right place and edit the data, in which case why not just put in a full fake SIN?).

Now, I think it's perfectly likely there's SIN-fixers like this, selling cheap SINs you don't have to wait very long for ("Get it to you tonight, chummer!"), but they definitely wouldn't be paying top nuyen for SINs taken off dead people: if they sold them for, on average, 1,000¥, but only have a 10% chance of selling each SIN before it goes bad, they would make no profit if they bought the SIN for 100¥. So we might only be talking two figures - still, that's money for street punks and go-gangers, who do make some corpses...

Edit: Incidentally, now I can't help but think that every time your SIN is checked, a dude like Colin Laney from Idoru is trawling all your purchase information, travel history, and other data (which is probably frighteningly accurate for a real person, since your SIN is probably linked to your commlink which is probably on all the time, meaning your every movement could be recorded if someone wanted to devote the server space) looking for discrepancies on an almost intuitive level to figure out that the SIN isn't for a real person... (This also makes me wonder if a fake SIN shouldn't get stronger as it's used regularly, but that's getting pretty far down a rabbit hole now...)

[Slipperychicken]

Edit: Incidentally, now I can't help but think that every time your SIN is checked, a dude like Colin Laney from Idoru is trawling all your purchase information, travel history, and other data (which is probably frighteningly accurate for a real person, since your SIN is probably linked to your commlink which is probably on all the time, meaning your every movement could be recorded if someone wanted to devote the server space) looking for discrepancies on an almost intuitive level to figure out that the SIN isn't for a real person... (This also makes me wonder if a fake SIN shouldn't get stronger as it's used regularly, but that's getting pretty far down a rabbit hole now...)

Honestly, that sort of thing is much more likely to be done with some incredibly-sophisticated computer program, much like the ones on Amazon and Youtube which recommend products and videos for you, but infinitely more advanced since the game takes place in 2075. I imagine that such a program would look for suspicious behavior (things like buying 800 SMG rounds when the SIN is a 12-year-old girl, or not buying food for a month), then contact an operator to recommend investigation once it passed some predetermined sketchiness-threshold.


EDIT: Now that I think of it, the SIN system would certainly be used to predict things like how likely someone is to commit crimes, and they'd likely use a regularly-updated database of fake/burned SINS to predict how likely a given SIN will turn out to be fake.

[Rhynn]

EDIT: Now that I think of it, the SIN system would certainly be used to predict things like how likely someone is to commit crimes, and they'd likely use a regularly-updated database of fake/burned SINS to predict how likely a given SIN will turn out to be fake.

Yeah, in Idoru, Laney's story is that he worked as a data analyst for a media company and was fired because he predicted someone's suicide attempt (who he shouldn't have been observing IIRC) from her credit card usage etc., and tried to stop it... there's some implications that Laney was part of some experiment on children designed to produce uncanny abilities of pattern recognition and data sorting (in All Tomorrow's Parties, he's become essentially a crazy prophet living in a cardboard box "village" in a Tokyo subway station, predicting the coming technological singulary).

I know mechanically it just comes down to "fake SIN rating vs. detection rating" but I think it's very important to know what that actually entails - and fun to think about.

I wonder if we can assume that a fake SIN also includes, abstracted as part of its rating, some sort of "maintenance" to keep it from going "bad" over time... a daemon set up to spoof purchases, etc., in case it is not used regularly...

[Aux-Ash]

It's really tricky, though. You have to digitally resurrect the person (or make sure they're never found after dying), and you probably can't use the SIN for someone that had family, since they'll report them missing and there'll be extra attention on the SIN. Corporate SINs are probably right out in this case, too, since the corporation will probably have an alert on the SIN the moment it's used (in part exactly because of SIN theft; corps will have extra motivation to find their missing persons for reasons of security, and a lot of their employees can't just "quit"). The mere fact somebody has a SIN makes it much more likely there are people out there who will be looking for them if they disappear. (In fact, I imagine a standard type of job private investigator-deckers might be keeping tabs on the Matrix on the SINs of missing people!)

A fake SIN created from scratch lacks all of these complications. It's going to be slightly more complicated to create, but you need to hack into a SIN database/data haven in either case (at the very least, when "recycling" a SIN, you need to see all the data associated with it; and more likely you'll need to switch all the biometrics). It's not actually more difficult to fake one, I'd say, because the difference is essentially just a matter of taking longer. The complications of using a dead person's SIN versus the chance that you have holes in your fake SIN are a wash - we can't really say which is going to be a bigger problem on average.

Also, if you have a library of SINs sitting and waiting to be matched to future clients, they're going to essentially "go bad" over time: they're going to have very suspicious gaps in their purchase histories and other recorded data (unless, again, you hack into the right place and edit the data, in which case why not just put in a full fake SIN?).

Now, I think it's perfectly likely there's SIN-fixers like this, selling cheap SINs you don't have to wait very long for ("Get it to you tonight, chummer!"), but they definitely wouldn't be paying top nuyen for SINs taken off dead people: if they sold them for, on average, 1,000¥, but only have a 10% chance of selling each SIN before it goes bad, they would make no profit if they bought the SIN for 100¥. So we might only be talking two figures - still, that's money for street punks and go-gangers, who do make some corpses...

Edit: Incidentally, now I can't help but think that every time your SIN is checked, a dude like Colin Laney from Idoru is trawling all your purchase information, travel history, and other data (which is probably frighteningly accurate for a real person, since your SIN is probably linked to your commlink which is probably on all the time, meaning your every movement could be recorded if someone wanted to devote the server space) looking for discrepancies on an almost intuitive level to figure out that the SIN isn't for a real person... (This also makes me wonder if a fake SIN shouldn't get stronger as it's used regularly, but that's getting pretty far down a rabbit hole now...)

I mean sure, a corporate SIN is either a deathtrap or insanely expensive. No question about that. But just imagine the insane amount of data a SIN would contain.


In biometrics we're looking at:
Length - that has been updated through childhood by physicians
Weight - Updated every now and then during medical visits
10 mitocondrial DNA markers (unqiue DNA profile) - logged with the party that issued the SIN
Dental records - logged at a dentist
Handprint - logged with the party that issued the SIN
Iris - logged with the party that issued the SIN
Breath ID (the latest thing in the field :smallbiggrin:) - issued with the party that issued the SIN
Gender - issued with party issuing SIN

In Social records we're looking at:
Birth certificate - Issued by hospital/maternity care
Nationality/Corporation - same as above, confirmed by census records of nation/corporation
Home town - Issued by local census office, kept logged for changes
Social status - Issued by local census office, kept logged for changes
Address - Issued by building owner, confirmed by local census office and kept logged for changes
Schooling - Issued by school, confirmed by census records.
Job history - Issued by every employer, confirmed by census office and tax office
License history - issued by various parties, confirmed by law enforcement and employer
Tax records - Logged by tax office

In business history we're looking at:
Purchase history - issued by many many parties

*For comparison, the hospital region I work in regularily operates 10 databases spread out over, in shadowrun terms, several hosts... this for every patient and visit

At absolute minimum, a fixer would have to hack 13 hosts (including high risk targets such as law enforcement, tax records, census records and perhaps even corporations) and alter at least akin to 28 databases. At minimum, and that assumed a fairly transparent background. They're not going to auto-update as a safety feature. You'll have to update them manually.
Sure, if you pay for rating 6 that's what you're going to get.

But given that nothing short of rating 6 will pass a thorough examination anyways, it seems like fair game to use dead SINS. Any smart fixer is probably alreday paying of the local slum morgues for SINS (and information about people looking for them).

But a dead SIN? It got all that data already. For higher ratings you may have to hack a few of those records, but not all of them. Maybe you have to hack the local slum morgue to delete the entry recording this biometric profile as dead. Maybe you alter some details.
But the odds of someone checking with that morgue if this biometric profile is in their records or not is fairly small. Countless of SINless die every night anyways... what are the odds that this one happened to be a SINner.

So I'd say that dead SINS could hold up to rating 4. The ones that do are rare of course, but we knew that by looking at the price anyways. Noone really updates them because there's no money in trawling through countless of SINless biometric profiles... It's a lot of effort for very little gain. '

It's not that the information isn't easily available, it's that there's no money involved in going over it. Or put it this way: it would require a setting where someone with resources cares about you.

That said, being confronted by the relatives of the person whom's SIN you've bought sounds like a interesting story hook.

[Rhynn]

The more I use the SR 5E book, the more I must conclude that it is shamefully badly edited. Nevermind that when I flip to a page I'm told to flip to read the rules for a piece of gear, half the time there's nothing applicable on the page... now I have no idea what trolls and dwarves pay for what in character creation.

Basically, for both trolls and dwarves, there are two conflicting sets of rules/instructions. Here's the relevant quotes:

Page 65: "Trolls [...] receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for ger because everything — including cyberware and bioware — must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements." (Given as an example, not as part of a listing.)

Page 66: (metatype table) "Dwarf Racial: [...] +20% increased Lifestyle cost", "Troll Racial: [...] +100% increased Lifestyle costs"

Page 94: (instructions for purchasing gear) "(trolls have a 50 percent gear and Lifestyle cost increase, dwarfs have a 10 percent increase in gear costs)", "add in the appropriate cost modifier (10 or 50 percent)"

Page 97: (Rob's example) "he is a troll and has the racial disadvantage of having to pay one hundred percent more for Lifestyle expenses" (only his Low Lifestyle's cost is increased; his aror and weapons are listed as standard price, and no modifier is added to the total for all gear)

So...
Two places (metatype table and Rob's example) say trolls pay +100% more for Lifestyle and that's it.
Two places (example about racial abilities and instructions for buying gear) say trolls pay 50% extra for gear and lifestyle ("everything" in fact).
One place says dwarves pay +20% for Lifestyle and nothing else.
One place says dwarves pay +10% extra for gear only.

Can anyone tell me what trolls and dwarves are actually supposed to pay, and for what? "Gear and lifestyle" doesn't even make much sense; I can understand resizing weapons and clothing, obviously, plus anything you hold in your hand I guess, plus vehicles, and I guess trolls need bigger doses of drugs, etc. ... but surely fake SINs and licenses, at least, are exempt? Are fetishes and other magical materials?

[Slipperychicken]

Basically, for both trolls and dwarves, there are two conflicting sets of rules/instructions. Here's the relevant quotes:


Errata clarified it; Trolls and Dwarves only apply that modifier to lifestyle costs, not gear. Getting their gear customized is included in the lifestyle cost. I imagine that there's a market for troll-sized triggers/handles, clothes, and such, so companies either produce modified versions of their weapons, or some company goes around modifying weapons to fit Troll fingers for relatively cheap.


If you really want bad editing, figure out what happens when you dual-weild SMGs, or whether defense tests apply against grenades. I've been looking at this thing for weeks and I still don't know for sure.

[Rhynn]

Where's the errata available? The website doesn't have an errata download, and the only thing I can find are errata threads on dumpshock.com and shadowruntabletop.com forums.

Also, are the modifiers +100% or +50% and +20% or +10%?

Edit: Also, since the book is apparently full of mistakes, are dwarves supposed to no longer have natural thermographic vision?

EditEdit: I dug out my old second edition Shadowrun books, and I have to say I painfully miss the days when RPG books were just black on white on the inside (except for the occasional color inserts like the Shadowrun books have). So much easier to read than all the colors splashed on colors with colored page backgrounds, etc. Seems like only OSR books are like that anymore.

[Slipperychicken]

Where's the errata available? The website doesn't have an errata download, and the only thing I can find are errata threads on dumpshock.com and shadowruntabletop.com forums.

Also, are the modifiers +100% or +50% and +20% or +10%?


We were given a link to this (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12034805/SRM5%20Hot%20Patch%20Errata%20v1.0.pdf). It appears to be errata for Missions. It's a hot-patch, so it'll be superseded when the official errata comes out.

Anyway, here's what it says about dwarf/trolls lifestyles:


Dwarves and Trolls have a lifestyle modifier to represent special needs due to their sizes and physiology (20% and 100%, respectively).

Neither race pays additional cost to have gear customized. This is factored into lifestyles already.


Also, it says that Dwarves do get Thermographic vision.

[Rhynn]

Can anyone point me to where the SR5 rulebook defines the augmented attribute maximum (which is referenced a lot by e.g. Adept Powers)? I just can't seem to find it. SR4 defined it along with the starting attributes and natural attribute maximums (at +50% to natural maximum).

[TheCountAlucard]

It's your regular maximum (+1 if you took the Exceptional Attribute Positive Quality), +4.

[Rhynn]

It's your regular maximum (+1 if you took the Exceptional Attribute Positive Quality), +4.

Where does it say that?

Edit: Also, I'm thinking/assuming (I guess from playing earlier editions) that implant weapons/cyberguns on a cyberlimb have no Essence cost - basically, cyber weapons either take up Essence or capacity. However, I can't seem to locate anything that says this in the rules... am I misremembering?

EditEdit: Okay, I think I found the source for my idea. SR3 says spurs, etc. can be built into a cyberlimb at no Essence cost. Not sure about SR4...

EditEditEdit: I can't seem to find anything that says whether you use augmented or unaugmented attributes to calculate limits. Any help?

[CombatOwl]

Where does it say that?

Edit: Also, I'm thinking/assuming (I guess from playing earlier editions) that implant weapons/cyberguns on a cyberlimb have no Essence cost - basically, cyber weapons either take up Essence or capacity. However, I can't seem to locate anything that says this in the rules... am I misremembering?

EditEdit: Okay, I think I found the source for my idea. SR3 says spurs, etc. can be built into a cyberlimb at no Essence cost. Not sure about SR4...

EditEditEdit: I can't seem to find anything that says whether you use augmented or unaugmented attributes to calculate limits. Any help?

For some reason, it is only mentioned on Page 94, where it discusses "Spending your Resources" under character creation. Even stranger, it is not a part of the main "Cyberware" discussion on the very same page. That... seems like the sort of thing that ought to be replicated somewhere more relevant, like the Cyberware section in Street Gear.

And yes, in SR5 additional features of cyberlimbs have no additional essence cost (beyond the limb), they instead use up capacity. It's a little confusing because there is an essence cost listed for them, but that is only for augmentations added to an organic limb.

[CombatOwl]

I don't know, the biggest mess about 4th edition was the matrix. I didn't go too far into 5E but I like what I see from matrix rules so far.

What I don't get is the limits/accuracy, why is this even there? They don't serve any purpose, as barring extraordinary luck you will never reach those limits.

Statistically speaking, the lop off the top end of the bell curve. It helps to normalize things a bit. It's not really that unlikely that you'll get more than 4 hits on 12 dice, and 12 dice in a combat skill pool isn't very hard to get at all.

Definitely it doesn't matter a whole lot, but it's still something.


Wireless connectivity for cyber is also a bit strange but I will delay judgement until I see how easy it is to actually hack someones cyber.

How easy that is depends on the competency of the team's decker. The wireless connectivity option is, I think, a good thing from a gameplay standpoint. It adds more things to do in a fight.

[CombatOwl]

Hmmm... an effective increase in accuracy sounds like it would be a neat adept power. You know, the "Grab a random weapon and use it like it's a high-quality katana"?

It's not hard to overcome limits, it costs a point of edge (which also adds some dice to the attack).

[Rhynn]

For some reason, it is only mentioned on Page 94, where it discusses "Spending your Resources" under character creation. Even stranger, it is not a part of the main "Cyberware" discussion on the very same page. That... seems like the sort of thing that ought to be replicated somewhere more relevant, like the Cyberware section in Street Gear.

And yes, in SR5 additional features of cyberlimbs have no additional essence cost (beyond the limb), they instead use up capacity. It's a little confusing because there is an essence cost listed for them, but that is only for augmentations added to an organic limb.

Wow, yeah. Given that things other than cyberware augment your attributes, that really should be mentioned somewhere else. (Stating it once in, say, the table of starting and maximum unaugmented attributes would work nicely.)

That's a really bad section to miss out on - it also explains that limits are improved by augmented attributes. (Which almost seems counter-intuitive to me, especially when there are augmentations and adept powers that specifically increase limits.)

And I finally found the bit that confirms what you say about paying Capacity instead of Essence... page 451, under "Headware," repeated for other types under their headings.

Edit: And now I notice the limit on no betaware+ at character creation. It seems arbitrary - cyberware is already limited by Availability, and the grades increase the Availability number, so why add an arbitrary limitation?

[CombatOwl]

Wow, yeah. Given that things other than cyberware augment your attributes, that really should be mentioned somewhere else. (Stating it once in, say, the table of starting and maximum unaugmented attributes would work nicely.)

Seems like this book desperately needs a second printing with some of these odd editorial choices fixed. There's also a notorious problem with the way that VCRs are written as working directly conflicting with the way they're said to work in the Rigging section--RAW riggers can hook into any car and increase its speed several times over (whee, rather than going 60mph, it's now going 200mph), even though it's obviously only intended to increase the [speed] limit.

The rules do actually make some sense, but only if you completely memorize the book and ignore the bizarre interpretations of conflicting rules. It's kind of like reading a Palladium book.


And I finally found the bit that confirms what you say about paying Capacity instead of Essence... page 451, under "Headware," repeated for other types under their headings.

Yeah, they probably should have just had a general cyberware/bioware rules section, rather than trying to roll it all up into Street Gear. Hopefully we'll get a Man and Machine for 5th edition that clears some of this up. That should be a way higher priority than a magic or matrix book.


Edit: And now I notice the limit on no betaware+ at character creation. It seems arbitrary

I'm 99% sure that it's there because they were trying to bring back the old 3rd edition-style character creation, and that was a rule back in 3rd edition. I think it's just fan service for the grognards.

[Rhynn]

So all Detection spells are listed as "Range: T" which is "Touch" ... this makes no sense at all, especially looking at the general explanation about Detection spells and the specifics of each spell. Also, several of them have "(Area)" as a tag after the name, but the explanation for the "Area" quality says it's supposed to be an "(A)" after the Range entry...

I guess this is easy enough to figure out and it's just a major repeated typographical/editing error, but holy crap the quality of this book is poor. No one should buy SR5 until a new printing comes out incorporating errata and correcting all the incomprehensibly bad editing.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm 99% sure that it's there because they were trying to bring back the old 3rd edition-style character creation, and that was a rule back in 3rd edition. I think it's just fan service for the grognards.

...3rd edition is grognards?

Get off my lawn! :smallbiggrin:

[CombatOwl]

So all Detection spells are listed as "Range: T" which is "Touch" ... this makes no sense at all, especially looking at the general explanation about Detection spells and the specifics of each spell. Also, several of them have "(Area)" as a tag after the name, but the explanation for the "Area" quality says it's supposed to be an "(A)" after the Range entry...

That one actually does make sense; the "range" refers to the range of the spell, not the range of the effect. Meaning that you have to touch the subject of the detection spell in order to cast the detection spell on them.

[The Random NPC]

Edit: And now I notice the limit on no betaware+ at character creation. It seems arbitrary - cyberware is already limited by Availability, and the grades increase the Availability number, so why add an arbitrary limitation?

You could only buy Alphaware at character creation in 4th ed. as well.

[Rhynn]

That one actually does make sense; the "range" refers to the range of the spell, not the range of the effect. Meaning that you have to touch the subject of the detection spell in order to cast the detection spell on them.

I actually started thinking about that: so basically, you can cast Clairvoyance on your buddy to let them see a distant place, instead? It makes sense when you think about it that way.

Another random point: I really hate advice on cheating your players out of their victories. All that the Hand of God bit on page 386 suggests to me is that PCs need to always remove the heads of anyone they think is a "prime runner" NPC after killing them. Basically, every team of PCs should include a troll who collects the severed heads of his enemies.

Edit: Reading the Combat Rules now. Page 173, "Grazing Hit" says that a tie on the Opposed Test to attack deals no damage. Page 190, "Cover" says that if the target is in cover, a tie results in hitting the cover, and you can still deal damage if you penetrate it. So being in cover improves your defense but suddenly ties can hurt you - WTF? I have to wonder if this is intentional or an oversight.

[TheCountAlucard]

If you want silly, don't overlook the rules for using a human body as a shield.

Or how going at max speed into a wall on your motorcycle with no helmet does less damage than a half-mph bump into a shopping cart with your van.

Also, your troll shouldn't just collect heads; he also needs to fire a few rounds into each one every week.

Just in case of regenerators. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Also, your troll shouldn't just collect heads; he also needs to fire a few rounds into each one every week.

He should also remember to harvest cyberware from dead opponents and either sell them for cash-money or use them himself.


You should be fine if you (in the process of destroying/mutilate the body) take care to harvest the prime runner's brain and properly dispose of it eat it to gain his strength.

[Rhynn]

You should be fine if you (in the process of destroying/mutilate the body) take care to harvest the prime runner's brain and properly dispose of it eat it to gain his strength.

That's just asking your GM to hit you with some interesting strain of HMHVV... :smallbiggrin:

[Rhynn]

How do I find out the cost for Pilot Programs and Autosofts? I guess since I've hit the rigging rules I'm going to find even more things wrong (why on earth does the Proteus Poseidon command console have higher availability and cost than a Vulcan Liegelord, when they have the exact same attributes? What's the difference!?). I'm trying to figure out how to buy software to drive your car for you...

Edit:

Or how going at max speed into a wall on your motorcycle with no helmet does less damage than a half-mph bump into a shopping cart with your van.

Okay, I got to this bit in the rules, and you weren't kidding.

Damage to passengers in a crash is based ONLY on the Body of the vehicle. Speed is irrelevant. So the bigger, heavier, and safer the vehicle is, the more damage you take. Also, if you are wearing an armor jacket, you will only take Stun damage from crashing a motorcycle at 200 mph into a wall, and you'll probably resist most of it.

This isn't even poor interactions or bad playtesting, this is just mind-bogglingly, insanely bad design. The mechanics are nonsensical on their face - the moment you read them, you see they're crazy and make no sense at all!

And it looks like it's intentional! The book says, in the section on crashes, that "vehicle crashes are rare, and though they can be spectacular in many cases they do not involve a lot of damage."

So basically SR5 has abandoned all pretense at modelling any kind of (fantastical) reality and is as game-y (or vidjagamey, if you want) as D&D 4E.

[HMS Invincible]

Stop, you're making me regret joiining a 5E game. =(
jk

First, I like to say thanks for whoever answer my questions about specialization costs. I've been without internet, and I never got around to posting.

Can someone explain to me what's the rule about limits being augmented by your augmented stats? Is it only for cyberlimbs? Like is there any way to get higher limits on weapons other than a smartgun?

[Rhynn]

Mental, Physical, and Social Inherent Limits are calculated using augmented attributes (see page 95).

Weapon Accuracy is a special kind of limit. Many melee weapons/attacks use the Physical Limit, but Accuracy is only changed by things that affect Accuracy - it has no relationship to your attributes.

I haven't noticed anything that increases Accuracy other than Laser Sights and Smartgun Systems (not cumulative) and the Adept Power, Enhanced Accuracy.

Edit:
:smallannoyed: Cyberskulls are Availability 16, so you can't start play with a cyberskull installed with a light pistol (firing flechette rounds). I want my skullgun!

EditEdit:
Oh, but you can start with a used cyberskull...

[CombatOwl]

Okay, I got to this bit in the rules, and you weren't kidding.

Damage to passengers in a crash is based ONLY on the Body of the vehicle. Speed is irrelevant. So the bigger, heavier, and safer the vehicle is, the more damage you take. Also, if you are wearing an armor jacket, you will only take Stun damage from crashing a motorcycle at 200 mph into a wall, and you'll probably resist most of it.

This isn't even poor interactions or bad playtesting, this is just mind-bogglingly, insanely bad design. The mechanics are nonsensical on their face - the moment you read them, you see they're crazy and make no sense at all!

To be honest, I think I'll just houserule this bit by saying that crash damage is 2*(speed + body)P [speed] damage, just like taking any other physical damage. You roll to see how many hits the passengers took, they get to roll a damage resistance to reduce net hits. Seems simple enough. Not sure why they didn't do that to begin with. Putting the limit on speed means that low speed collisions aren't a big deal.

TBH, that also makes safety systems dead easy to implement (it lowers the limit on crash damage).


And it looks like it's intentional! The book says, in the section on crashes, that "vehicle crashes are rare, and though they can be spectacular in many cases they do not involve a lot of damage."

Yeah, they're trying to avoid killing everyone in the vehicle for purely dramatic reasons.


So basically SR5 has abandoned all pretense at modelling any kind of (fantastical) reality and is as game-y (or vidjagamey, if you want) as D&D 4E.

Let's not get carried away. They're modeling cinematic damage as you'd find in a movie, not actual damage like you'd find in real life.

[Tychris1]

How do I find out the cost for Pilot Programs and Autosofts? I guess since I've hit the rigging rules I'm going to find even more things wrong (why on earth does the Proteus Poseidon command console have higher availability and cost than a Vulcan Liegelord, when they have the exact same attributes? What's the difference!?). I'm trying to figure out how to buy software to drive your car for you...

I'd think p. 246, as it mentions Agents being like Drone Pilot Programs, and they also work off of a 1-6 rating, so Agent would be my best guess for it.

Anyway, after looking through the book a bit, I feel like playing a Street Samurai. Namely one with Hand Blades for fingers (Because that black and red thing on the art for "Girls with Guns" is FREAKING AWESOME), so I was wondering something. Are multiple attacks a good strategy? I was thinking of swapping out both my arms for Cyber arms, jacking their strength to 9, and shoving Hand Blades into each of them. From there i'm at a bit of a loss between going full Bioware or Cyberware. On the one hand, I plan on making Resources Priority A, so Bioware cost can be negligible, but I don't know how good Bioware actually is compared to Cyberware. Any help?

[Rhynn]

Bioware gets you most of the same bang as cyberware, with a higher cost in nuyen and a lower cost in Essence. (Exception: bone density aug + orthoskin is more expensive in both nuyen and Essence than bone lacing, but you can get rating 3 at character creation while you can only get aluminum bone lacing.)

E.g. synaptic booster rating 2 is 190,000¥ and 1.0 Essence (avail. 12), while wired reflexes rating 2 is 149,000¥ and 3.0 Essence (avail. 12). You'd basically be a fool to go for WR2 over SB2. But WR1 is so much cheaper than SB1 that it's probably going to be a lot more common (and you can afford to get it as alphaware, saving 0.4 Essence).

Muscle replacement vs. muscle augmentation & toner is a straightforward example: for every +1 to STR and AGI from replacement, you pay 25,000¥ and 1 Essence, compared to a total of 63,000¥ and 0.4 Essence for the same from aug & toner.

If you've got Priority A Resources and are not spending it on a cyberdeck, you probably want bioware, because it's hard to spend 400K¥ on cyberware, even alphaware, without going over 6.0 Essence.

[Tychris1]

Hmmm........

But does Muscle Aug/Toner stack with Cyberarms? Or are you saying I should dump Cyberarms and get used Aug/Toner instead? If I got used Muscle Aug. rating 3, can I upgrade it to Rating 4 at a later point? I don't remember the book saying anything involving upgrades, so I might have missed it.

[Rhynn]

Your cybernetic limbs (and I guess, in theory, skull or torso) have their own completely separate AGI and STR attributes (page 455, last paragraph under Cyberlimbs) that start at 3 each and are bought up at 5,000¥ per +1 up to your natural maximum (6 for humans; if you buy them up past the natural maximum, you can't use them), each +1 increasing Availability by 1. You can also buy Agility Enhancement and Strength Enhancement for a limb at 6,500¥ per +1, up to +3.

So you could get a synthetic full arm for 20,000¥ base, increase AGI and STR to 6 each for +30,000¥ (increasing Availability to 10, so you're good to get it at chargen, and could even make it alphaware for +20% to the price of all components and enhancements put into it; very likely not a good deal!), then get Agility and Strength Enhancements both at Rating 3 for +39,000¥. Now you've got AGI 6(9) and STR 6(9) for anything you do with the cyberarms, and paid a total of 89,000¥. If you do something that involves augmented and unaugmented limbs, you average the attributes; if you do something that doesn't use the augmented limbs, you use your unaugmented attributes (although that may be augmented separately).

Other augmentations to AGI and STR, like muscle replacement, won't affect your cyberlimbs at all.

Getting cyberlimbs for a AGI 4 STR 10 troll is ridiculous: you'd pay 60,000¥ for a synthetic cyberarm/leg with AGI 4 STR 10.

Cyberlimbs are, IMO, not that terribly useful unless you plan to stuff them full of high-Essence-cost cyberware augmentations, paying Capacity instead of Essence. But they're cool! Also, human and elven combat types can max out AGI and STR for most uses (attacks, at least) this way.

So, if you want to splurge and get two cyberarms at 89,000¥ each to wield those hand blades with AGI and STR 6(9), you can. If you get obvious cyber arms, you knock off 5,000¥ from each and get the Capacity to add Armor Enhancement Rating 2 to each (at 6,000¥ each) for a total of +4 to your armor (two cyberlimbs also gives you +2 Physical Condition Monitor boxes). You only lose 1 Essence per arm. That's a total of 183,000¥ (195,000¥ if you get the Armor), +20% if you get it alphaware. It's not very efficient, but it's cool.

You could, instead, get alphaware muscle replacement 2 (0.8 Essence, 60,000¥) for +2 to AGI and STR, two alphaware hand blades (0.4 Essence, 6,000¥), and aluminum bone lacing (1 Essence, 18,000¥) for +2 Armor and +2 BOD against damage. It comes out to more Essence loss but only 94,000¥.

Or you could get muscle augmentation & toner 2 each (0.8 Essence, 126,000¥), two alphaware hand blades (0.4 Essence, 6,000¥), orthoskin 3 (0.75 Essence, 18,000¥), and damage compensators 4 (0.4 Essence, 8,000¥).

All those optiosn do kinda the same thing.

Actually, looking at all that, if the dual hand blades really are your thing, the two cyber arms may just be the best approach. You can get them alphaware and have enough left for wired reflexes 2 if you want it, and some miscellaneous cyberware (eyes, ears, whatever) and other gear. Get alphaware wired reflexes 1 if you want to get more other stuff.

[Tychris1]

Thank you for that! That really helped, and it's heartening to hear that duel cyberarms is probably the best route. I think i'd go with WR 1 since I want Cyber Eyes/Ears, plus a Cyber Nose (The olfactory booster) and grapple gun, maybe even squeeze in cyber legs with hydraulic jacks.

[Feriority]

Is there a quick summary somewhere of what's changed, lore and setting wise, between 4e and 5e? I've seen some stuff on the mechanical changes, but very little on the moving history of the world.

Decks are a thing again, and your equipment works better if it's posting to MyFriendFace, both of which suggest things about the changing setting, but I don't see much concrete stuff.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, all the nanites (and apparently everything too reliant on the use of nanites to produce, including some plain old guns from the last edition :smallconfused:) have "melted into slag." :confused:

On the one hand, the removal of all the nanotechnology stuff will supposedly help it to maintain that cyberpunk feel. On the other hand, the cat's been let out of the bag at this point, and their attempt to stuff it back in feels hamfisted and arbitrary (just like the castration of commlinks to encourage deckers actually decking with decks). In the future I'm hoping if they do discuss it, the metaplot reason for this occurence doesn't make me want to punch something.

[Rhynn]

So am I missing it, or are there no rules (beyond "the GM assigns a threshold and interval for building stuff") for building your own cyberdeck or command console? That seems like a pretty big oversight, considering those are probably the first things PCs are likely to want to build from scratch.

[TheCountAlucard]

On the other hand, lacking all the advantages the megacorps get just by dint of their sheer size, having to custom-create all your components (and possibly the tools to create those components, and the place in which to build it), and write all the software yourself, I wouldn't doubt it if the interval was months or even years.

Factoring in shop/facility costs, and Lifestyle for all the time it takes, I wouldn't be surprised if it cost more than a deck, even if the parts were somehow free.

[Rhynn]

That's a post-hoc rationalization, though. The book has a Hardware skill (which even suggests cyberdecks as a specialization) with no actual rules, or even guidelines, for its use (except for repairing Matrix damage). The rules also mention "upgrading your deck" (p. 226) as a use for Hardware, but again with no rules or guidelines that I can find.

On that note, I can't find any rules for using Software to write your own programs, even though that's repeatedly mentioned as a use for the skill (and is, again, a pretty basic and obvious thing for hackers to do).

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm saying that the lack of such is a big oversight, but there's enough details about all this stuff in 4e, and while it is possible to make your own stuff, it ain't cheaper, and it definitely ain't a cakewalk. My 4e Hacker made his own Firewall prog; it was only because the GM allowed two time-reducers to stack, and my choice to burn an Edge that I managed to get it in three months.

Three months. Just for Firewall.

[Rhynn]

That doesn't sound unrealistic or onerous to me (especially when you look at 5E training times). And, obviously, a decker could divide the workload between some colleagues.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rules for using hardware and software to create your own stuff are probably gonna be in the new matrix sourcebook. I agree that at least the basics should have been included in the core book.
Since they are not you'll have to make do with the 4E rules in Unwired (if you have it). I can only assume that it was cut due to space restrictions/lack of time/oversight.

[TheCountAlucard]

Or maybe they just didn't think of it. There's more than a little bit of 5e that seems to back that idea.

[HMS Invincible]

Is there any way to add an under slung grenade launcher onto a firearm? I don't see any rules for it.
Also, how often do you guys bother with forbidden equipment? I was never the most comfortable carrying around blatantly obvious forbidden stuff.

[Rhynn]

Also, how often do you guys bother with forbidden equipment? I was never the most comfortable carrying around blatantly obvious forbidden stuff.

Well, usually you don't have a license for all the Restricted stuff, either (you might get one for a deck or a gun, I guess, but that's one item out of probably half a dozen or more). On the job, you want to not be seen anyway - if you are, you've probably got bigger problems than that you're carrying a gun with a silencer. Off the job and among civilized society you shouldn't carry anything that's even Restricted without a license.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is there any way to add an under slung grenade launcher onto a firearm? I don't see any rules for it.
There aren't any rules for that in SR5 (yet). At least the Ares Alpha comes with a grenade launcher as standard though.


Also, how often do you guys bother with forbidden equipment? I was never the most comfortable carrying around blatantly obvious forbidden stuff.
It depends on the job and the opposition that can be expected. For normal running around stuff and legwork i usually leave the assault rifle and grenades in the car/at home.
On the other hand, if you're going to break into a heavily secured research facility you might as well pack the heavy stuff since you can't afford to be caught anyway.

[HMS Invincible]

I dunno, it got brought up during a trip on a plane. The GM wasn't sure how to deal with it. I had licenses for my restricted stuff, but a bunch of other guys were carrying forbidden items. He eventually handwaved it because the session was ending and it was our exit.

Anyone see this interesting analysis about glitches in shadowrun?
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dice_pool
Apparently even number dice has higher odds of rolling glitches. You have a 17% chance of rolling a glitch with 1 dice, but a 30% chance of rolling a glitch with 2 dice. And it keeps happening all the way up to 8 dice.

[TheCountAlucard]

Not as of 5e; remember, the new edition specifies more than half your dice pool coming up 1s. Incidentally, in addition to two dice no longer having better odds of glitching than one die, the only time you're gonna glitch on one or two dice, it will by necessity also be a critical glitch.

[Slipperychicken]

Not as of 5e; remember, the new edition specifies more than half your dice pool coming up 1s. Incidentally, in addition to two dice no longer having better odds of glitching than one die, the only time you're gonna glitch on one or two dice, it will by necessity also be a critical glitch.

To be fair, what do you expect when you've only got 2 dice to throw at a problem?

[Turalisj]

Hiya! Just got the 5th edition..... And was wondering if there's anyone interested in setting up a pbp or roll20 game >.>

Also, I've been hearing that armor is fairly worthless compared to dodging and that cybertech is horribly overpriced compared to going Awakened.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, I've been hearing that armor is fairly worthless compared to dodging and that cybertech is horribly overpriced compared to going Awakened.

That's pretty much accurate, but remember that your Defense pool takes a -1 every additional time you roll defense between action phases. Full auto complex burst fire can impose a -9 on your defense pool for that attack. So even the best dodger will go down with sufficient lead directed at his face. If you're caught unaware or surprised, you don't get to roll a defense test at all. Many magic spells do not allow defense tests against them either. Finally, it's unclear whether area attacks (such as Fireballs, rockets, land-mines, and grenades) allow Defense rolls to be made against them.

So your defense pool can be more potent at minimizing damage when you're aware and able to dodge, but it's also more situation-dependent than your soak pool. Also, your soak pool is relatively easy to bump up to 30ish once you get full body armor (and can go much higher with custom cyberlimbs), while large defense pools are usually accomplished by being an Adept or Mystic Adept and taking the Combat Sense power.


tl;dr: Cyber can make you tanky, but magic can make you dodgy.

[Asheram]

Now, I think it's perfectly likely there's SIN-fixers like this, selling cheap SINs you don't have to wait very long for ("Get it to you tonight, chummer!"), but they definitely wouldn't be paying top nuyen for SINs taken off dead people:

I'm going to quote Unwired here since I've got it fresh in memory.


No ****. It doesn't pay to skimp on your fake SINs. I did it once and ended up with some dead corper's SIN, straight from a shady morgue attendant who agreed not to register it for a few days.
Three days later I've got half of Lone Star after me thinking I'm a damn shedim-infested zombie.
*Sticks

:smallbiggrin:

[TheOOB]

Hiya! Just got the 5th edition..... And was wondering if there's anyone interested in setting up a pbp or roll20 game >.>

Also, I've been hearing that armor is fairly worthless compared to dodging and that cybertech is horribly overpriced compared to going Awakened.

You'll never be so good at dodging so that you won't get hit ever, it's easier to get attack bonuses than dodge bonuses, and many weapons have a pretty high min damage.

Armor is super important in SR, it's what makes getting hit twice with a ares predator V just make your day suck instead of making it your last. Armor always works(except vs magic, but combat spells SUUUUUUUUUUUCK in 5e), but you can't always dodge.

As far as awakened vs 'ware, if you just want to be stronger or faster, 'ware is the better option. Being awakened is very expensive, and there are more disadvantages than people may think. Further adept powers and spells to boost attributes are overpriced, and can't be reduced buy spending money. Awakened characters need to spend their karma to do things mundanes can't it's a waste to spend it just to be better at something mundane.

Aside from conjuration(rather binding), which can be overpowered, and mind control, which is overpowered, magic is no where near as powerful in SR as people think. It's just most GM's don't know the magic system well enough to deal with it.


So am I missing it, or are there no rules (beyond "the GM assigns a threshold and interval for building stuff") for building your own cyberdeck or command console? That seems like a pretty big oversight, considering those are probably the first things PCs are likely to want to build from scratch.

IMO, crafting rules for complicated gear is a bad idea for most systems. If it was feasible for your character to create a 100,000 nuyen cyberdeck, or even a 500 nuyen program, why the hell would you be performing the most dangerous job in the sixth world. Heck I think the guy who delivers bad news to Lofwyr has a better life expectancy than a runner.

[HMS Invincible]

Does anyone know how stealth works when you're using wireless gear? Does it require running silent? Or does the wireless broadcast not matter when someone is trying to detect you?

[CombatOwl]

That's a post-hoc rationalization, though. The book has a Hardware skill (which even suggests cyberdecks as a specialization) with no actual rules, or even guidelines, for its use (except for repairing Matrix damage). The rules also mention "upgrading your deck" (p. 226) as a use for Hardware, but again with no rules or guidelines that I can find.

On that note, I can't find any rules for using Software to write your own programs, even though that's repeatedly mentioned as a use for the skill (and is, again, a pretty basic and obvious thing for hackers to do).

I wouldn't really expect to find it. I don't think that any prior edition put that sort of stuff in the core book either. That's for supplements.


Does anyone know how stealth works when you're using wireless gear? Does it require running silent? Or does the wireless broadcast not matter when someone is trying to detect you?

Does it require it? No. But anyone who has an active commlink can detect your commlink without a test within 100m if you aren't running silent. Because of the way the AR works, they actually see where your commlink is... which is probably in your pocket or built into your head. Even if you are running silent, they may fail to spot you creeping around but succeed on a matrix perception test to notice your commlink. If you want to prevent that you need to turn off the wireless entirely.

[Aux-Ash]

Does it require it? No. But anyone who has an active commlink can detect your commlink without a test within 100m if you aren't running silent. Because of the way the AR works, they actually see where your commlink is... which is probably in your pocket or built into your head. Even if you are running silent, they may fail to spot you creeping around but succeed on a matrix perception test to notice your commlink. If you want to prevent that you need to turn off the wireless entirely.

Mind that Matrix Perception is rather unfeasible as a passive defence measure.

For one, it requires you to constantly ask "Is someone running silent within range" and then a second test to identify them. If there's more than one icon running silent, you pretty much have to pick one at random and hope it was the intruder.
You know what else is going to be running silent within the base? Every single alarm, lock and automated defence (and other things you don't want the enemy to notice). Unless you want to be helpful to your intruders and tell them where everything is :smallwink:
So in other words, while they could see you running silent... they'll have great difficulty telling you apart from the locks in the hallway as well.

Secondly... Matrix perception is limited by Data processing, which is to say the rating of the Commlinks enemy security will have. So you can expect them to have a limit that's fairly low. Much lower than your Decker's deck anyways, which you should slave your commlink to. And they need to get more hits than you to detect you. You win all ties.
They might have their commlinks tied to their host though... which could be a problem.

Thirdly... While you can expect a Spider to be available should something happen, chances are he won't be expecting you (and if he is, you got bigger problems). So the odds of him happening to be doing a random perception sweep of the facilities just as you enter... are fairly low. He's probably relaxing in his office, enjoying some coffee while watching a trid... maybe checking signalratio coming from the outside in order to spot an external attack, but probably not from within.

Fourthly... the same landscaping and architecture (see page 358) that the owners will be employing to prevent you from hacking their defences will also at the same time prevent them from detecting you. Matrix perception is affected by the same maluses as anything else, so unless the base is built to maximize matrix connectivity you shadowrunners are going to be rather difficult to spot. And remember... the hidden one wins all ties.
In other words: the same inhibiting wallpaper that protects their alarms will also be protecting you against anyone not in the same corridor :smallbiggrin:.

So... all in all... running silent ought to protect you decently in most cases. If you know cyber security is going to be tough you may want to switch things off, but it's not like it's a big red weakspot otherwise.
Is it fool proof: No. Is it safe: For the most part I'd say yes.

Oh and:
Fifthly... any smart security staff would have their automated defences friend-or-foe targetting system check if anything moving has marks on the local host. If yes: Friend. If no: open fire.
So running with the wireless off ought to automatically paint you as an enemy to the system and thus trigger every alarm in the building (and beyond).

[Telok]

I have a question that has bothered me since 4th came out (our group has not run the shadows since 3rd was still on the shelves).

With the fact that wireless networks are known to be less secure, why would a corp put it's security network on wireless? I mean, even at the lowly Stuffer Shack I would expect the security cameras and register to be wired and dumped straight to the local office. The inventory, panic button, and employee clock can easily be wireless but if someone in a van can spoof your register from down the block then you are going to lose money, lots of money.

Is there an explanation for the apparent proliferation of wireless security systems and registers in the face of known and exploited weaknesses?

[CombatOwl]

Mind that Matrix Perception is rather unfeasible as a passive defence measure.

For one, it requires you to constantly ask "Is someone running silent within range" and then a second test to identify them.

Okay?


If there's more than one icon running silent, you pretty much have to pick one at random and hope it was the intruder.

Alright, you're running security on this corporate complex. You detect someone running silent. Chances that it's someone trying to break in? Damn near 100%. Because anyone who's supposed to be there isn't going to be running silent.


You know what else is going to be running silent within the base? Every single alarm, lock and automated defence (and other things you don't want the enemy to notice).

Which any sane GM is going to point out--the security forces would already filter those devices out. And, hell, there's a good chance that they'd happily run them loud... because they're just as happy to have people intimidated away as they are to have them shot dead in the hallway. Kind of like putting up a sign that says "this area is under surveillance."


Unless you want to be helpful to your intruders and tell them where everything is :smallwink:

Sure. Letting intruders know that that critical access hallway is certain death is a fine strategy.


So in other words, while they could see you running silent... they'll have great difficulty telling you apart from the locks in the hallway as well.

Assuming there is no way to filter out known devices, and that the security chooses to play "death trap" rather than "sensible precaution." I mean, if the device is running loud, it can also inform people of its own status more easily.


Secondly... Matrix perception is limited by Data processing, which is to say the rating of the Commlinks enemy security will have.

Typically 4+, in addition to the rating for the decker(s) running site security. It's not a sure thing, but it is a significant risk of detection.


So you can expect them to have a limit that's fairly low. Much lower than your Decker's deck anyways, which you should slave your commlink to.

Should actually slave it to someone else's commlink, since that way matrix damage on the decker's deck doesn't screw the whole party.


And they need to get more hits than you to detect you. You win all ties.
They might have their commlinks tied to their host though... which could be a problem.

Or just call for the corp's deckers to do some spying.


Thirdly... While you can expect a Spider to be available should something happen, chances are he won't be expecting you (and if he is, you got bigger problems). So the odds of him happening to be doing a random perception sweep of the facilities just as you enter... are fairly low.

Chance of him doing that once a guard notices an improperly opened door... quite a bit higher.


He's probably relaxing in his office, enjoying some coffee while watching a trid... maybe checking signalratio coming from the outside in order to spot an external attack, but probably not from within.

Plus he has agents/sprites for that sort of thing.


Fourthly... the same landscaping and architecture (see page 358) that the owners will be employing to prevent you from hacking their defences will also at the same time prevent them from detecting you. Matrix perception is affected by the same maluses as anything else, so unless the base is built to maximize matrix connectivity you shadowrunners are going to be rather difficult to spot. And remember... the hidden one wins all ties.

Those places should be designed to get work done, not to be impenetrable noise barriers.


Oh and:
Fifthly... any smart security staff would have their automated defences friend-or-foe targetting system check if anything moving has marks on the local host. If yes: Friend. If no: open fire.

An even smarter one will fire on anything that isn't both inviting marks and having the host's mark.


So running with the wireless off ought to automatically paint you as an enemy to the system and thus trigger every alarm in the building (and beyond).

I'd also go as far as to say that the security ought to fire on anyone running silent.

[TheCountAlucard]

Here's the thing: there's a hard cap on how many devices can be slaved to the decker's deck. He can't protect every piece of everyone's equipment. That Ares Predator V is gonna have to be slaved to a commlink; it's not high-priority enough to earn a spot behind the decker's shield.

With that in mind, every gun, pair of goggles, drone, and other wireless-enabled equipment (in other words, all equipment) presents a liability if you're running silent, because it's gonna bloat the "amount of silent-running devices" ratio massively on the runners' side, and it only takes one spotted piece of unauthorized equipment for them to realize something's up.

TL;DR? They don't have to detect your commlink through the decker's stealth when everything else you're carrying is only protected by your commlink.

[Aux-Ash]

Okay?
Alright, you're running security on this corporate complex. You detect someone running silent. Chances that it's someone trying to break in? Damn near 100%. Because anyone who's supposed to be there isn't going to be running silent.

The issue isn't what they'll do if they do manage to find out someone running silent. Of course any sane security would sound the alarm. The issue is that they're not going to do that check every 10 seconds for their entire worklife. If they have a reason to look sure. But otherwise they'll spend the overwhelming majority of time picking up all silent devices in the complex and nothing more.


Which any sane GM is going to point out--the security forces would already filter those devices out. And, hell, there's a good chance that they'd happily run them loud... because they're just as happy to have people intimidated away as they are to have them shot dead in the hallway. Kind of like putting up a sign that says "this area is under surveillance."

Sure. Letting intruders know that that critical access hallway is certain death is a fine strategy.

I could see them having some loud devices for intimidation sure, but remember that any connected device is also something a decker/technomancer could use to enter your host with no noise. Broadcasting that will sound like certain death to some, but "instant access" to others.


Assuming there is no way to filter out known devices, and that the security chooses to play "death trap" rather than "sensible precaution." I mean, if the device is running loud, it can also inform people of its own status more easily.

Sure, but security should know which corridors are protected by automated defences anyways. They should not even enter those areas without first contacting their Spider and having it disabled. They know the place, they know their patrolroutes. They don't have to "see" the alarms, locks and defences.


Typically 4+, in addition to the rating for the decker(s) running site security. It's not a sure thing, but it is a significant risk of detection.

If they have 4+ Commlinks, shouldn't your runner team have stuff of equalient ratings? Including the third best deck?


Should actually slave it to someone else's commlink, since that way matrix damage on the decker's deck doesn't screw the whole party.

On the other hand, the decker is probably by far the most capable of responding to such a threat. I suppose he could be carrying a high rating commlink in addition to the deck, though. Probably a smart idea.


Or just call for the corp's deckers to do some spying.

Chance of him doing that once a guard notices an improperly opened door... quite a bit higher.

Oh yeah... once detected all bets are off. Then you really ought to switch off everything you don't need online. My point is that running silent is workable until that point.


Those places should be designed to get work done, not to be impenetrable noise barriers.

They could easily have antennae in the ceiling switched off during out-of-business hours. No point in giving intruders excellent wifi when noone is there to work anyways.

And if you don't have this? Then it won't matter what defences you have... because the intruders will have put them in diagnostic mode before they even set a foot inside.


An even smarter one will fire on anything that isn't both inviting marks and having the host's mark.
I'd also go as far as to say that the security ought to fire on anyone running silent.

Of course. This is what I meant. So running silent won't be a particularily big drawback. If they detect you, you're in trouble regardless.

[Sith_Happens]

The issue isn't what they'll do if they do manage to find out someone running silent. Of course any sane security would sound the alarm. The issue is that they're not going to do that check every 10 seconds for their entire worklife. If they have a reason to look sure. But otherwise they'll spend the overwhelming majority of time picking up all silent devices in the complex and nothing more.

What if they have a sticky note on their desk with the number of silent devices there are supposed to be?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Now, I may have mIssed this point, but why is everyone assuming people automatically *know* that there are Silent devices nearby? My reading is that you don't. That's the entire point.
The proper answer to "are there silent devices around" is rolling bones, even if there are none.
Similarly, a GM should occasionally ask for silent running checks, even if nobody is looking for your icon(s).

Also, only weapons and similar devices should count as extra icons against Runners, as all the normal, everyday icons are folded into your PAN. Since it's the only one "visible" in the Matrix, it's the only one people can perceive, anyway.
And, if everyone nests their slaves, one assumes the Decker *could* protect an entire small team's Devices.

My .02 nuyen, I suppose.

[Aux-Ash]

What if they have a sticky note on their desk with the number of silent devices there are supposed to be?

I'm sort of expecting that they will. Which means that once their search yields an answer they be manually counting all silent devices they're "seeing". And they'll probably recount them thrice before they realise that: Yes, there is in fact one more silent device than there should be.

Then they'll call the Spider and ask if there's anything new in their sector tonight. He'll be annoyed because they just interrupted him while he was watching a trid and he'll run a search on the silent devices and tell them that no, there isn't.

And then they'll both begin to look it up. Most likely they won't sound the alarm because most likely it's Robert in Human Resources that managed to forget his security badge. Again.

At which point they'll notice that for once it's actually not a false alarm.


Now, I may have mIssed this point, but why is everyone assuming people automatically *know* that there are Silent devices nearby? My reading is that you don't. That's the entire point.
The proper answer to "are there silent devices around" is rolling bones, even if there are none.
Similarly, a GM should occasionally ask for silent running checks, even if nobody is looking for your icon(s).

Also, only weapons and similar devices should count as extra icons against Runners, as all the normal, everyday icons are folded into your PAN. Since it's the only one "visible" in the Matrix, it's the only one people can perceive, anyway.
And, if everyone nests their slaves, one assumes the Decker *could* protect an entire small team's Devices.

My .02 nuyen, I suppose.

I agree with both points.

[Rhynn]

I'm sort of expecting that they will. Which means that once their search yields an answer they be manually counting all silent devices they're "seeing".

No, an application will do that in a fraction of a second, and pop up a big alert on their AR. "WARNING, [number] EXTRA DEVICES LOCATED."

Why would it ever be done manually?

Also, wasn't the original problem with silent running presented in this thread that you can use Agents to automate it? Have a few constantly look for silent running objects, scanning all the ones that aren't authorized, and then popping up alerts and directing security to them. That's not exactly expensive security, and certainly worth it for anyone concerned with someone sneaking in.

[Aux-Ash]

No, an application will do that in a fraction of a second, and pop up a big alert on their AR. "WARNING, [number] EXTRA DEVICES LOCATED."

Why would it ever be done manually?

Also, wasn't the original problem with silent running presented in this thread that you can use Agents to automate it? Have a few constantly look for silent running objects, scanning all the ones that aren't authorized, and then popping up alerts and directing security to them. That's not exactly expensive security, and certainly worth it for anyone concerned with someone sneaking in.

Can you put an agent in someone else's commlink though? I've never disputed that the Spider can find people (though he won't relaly be actively looking himself), the real question is if patrolling security can.

But I concede the point with the application. They'll still double check and call the spider, but it'll be a much shorter repsonse time.

[HMS Invincible]

So everyone is agreed that you DO have to shut off wireless, thus losing the bonuses, in order to do a run? How long does it take to turn on and off the wireless as needed? A free action? Simple? Several turns?
Another alternative is to get "hired" and have your fake gear registered so it doesn't ring any alarms. Wouldn't a good decker or contact be able to arrange that? One option is a PC action, both depend on the whims of the GM.

[Thanatos 51-50]

How long does it take to turn on and off the wireless as needed? A free action? Simple? Several turns?

A free action per device and/or PAN. Explicitly.



Also, wasn't the original problem with silent running presented in this thread that you can use Agents to automate it? Have a few constantly look for silent running objects, scanning all the ones that aren't authorized, and then popping up alerts and directing security to them. That's not exactly expensive security, and certainly worth it for anyone concerned with someone sneaking in.

This explicitly exists in-universe as a common program. It's called Patrol IC. There are stats.

[HMS Invincible]

It kinda defeats the purpose of a wireless camosuit, doesn't it? I guess if the people you were infiltrating had wireless, but don't have a decker/technomancer, then you could. But how would you know that?

All the other uses, guns, gear, etc etc, it won't matter if someone detected you because you're gonna kill someone. Even then, what if you wanted to kill someone before they sound the alarm? That would require a lot of coordination between the decker and the samurai. You'd kill/disable the guard, and have the decker spoof any alarms that would sound from the guards life signs going crazy, and you have to do all that without any wireless bonuses. If anything, you're even worse off because the enemy gets all the wireless bonuses, because they can use wireless freely.

[Thanatos 51-50]

The Spider is robably more concerned with the Host, itself. He may just sit back and passively monitor the Matrix instead of actively hunting people down.

Remember that guard duty is BORING, especially if you have zero idea that you've got a team of dangerous Shadowrunners headed your way. Which you don't, unless the Shadowrunners botched their legwork.
You might run a quick security sweep every half-hour or so as part of your daily routine, but you'd probably rely on cameras and Patrol IC to actually tell you anything is going on.
Shadowrunner teams confident in their Decker and/or Matrix Defense in general could easily go in with all the wireless toggled on. Turning *everything* you own to "Wireless off" is a Free Action, after all, and Reboot Device (Which, you'll recall, wipes all your marks) will only suck up one of your no doubt many Initiative passes if you're a combat monster.

Running with Wireless seem to come down to a risk assessment system, does the bonus outweigh the possibility of it being hacked? (It doesn't make you more visible unless it's not folded into your PAN).

It's not like you can't take a few ranks in Computers and run Matrix Perception on your own devices (And then Reboot/erase marks as needed).
This also gives the handy benefit of letting you know that you've been made and things are going to get really ugly if the enemy decker is even in the least bit subtle.

[Aux-Ash]

Yeah, having the wireless on is not perfectly safe. But it's hardly suicide either. The only thing it does is require you do have a decent cyber defence plan in place. That may very well be to shut everything down once you notice that an enemy Spider is starting to brick things. Or it means having a decker that actually keeps an eye on your stuff and keeps the enemy decker occupied (or better yet, oblivious). You know... What the enemy uses Spiders for in the first place.

Are there things you may want to keep offline at all times? Absolutely. But otherwise it's no less safe than shadowrunning in general.

And if you're still paranoid about deckers sneaking in an ruining your stuff then give them an irresistable bait:
Take a wireless grenade. Remove the transmitter and attach it to a battery and a small led light. Turn the transmitter to silent mode (don't want to make it seem too easy). Keep the Led-light where you can see it.
From the matrix it'll look like you're carrying a live grenade. To you it'll look like a flytrap that'll inform you when you're being attacked.

[TheOOB]

I have a question that has bothered me since 4th came out (our group has not run the shadows since 3rd was still on the shelves).

With the fact that wireless networks are known to be less secure, why would a corp put it's security network on wireless? I mean, even at the lowly Stuffer Shack I would expect the security cameras and register to be wired and dumped straight to the local office. The inventory, panic button, and employee clock can easily be wireless but if someone in a van can spoof your register from down the block then you are going to lose money, lots of money.

Is there an explanation for the apparent proliferation of wireless security systems and registers in the face of known and exploited weaknesses?

I didn't see this question get addressed, and it's very very important for understanding how corps work in Shadowrun.

In Shadowrun corps only care about one thing, money, every decision they make is cost-benefit analyzed and optimized to ensure the best bottom line possible.

Can a corp make a security system that it is unlikely will every be broken. Yes they can, but that would be super expensive, both in cost to implement(all those throwback security devices are expensive to install and maintain), and in lost production(it will slow down workers a lot to have them have to make security checks every ten minutes, for example).

Thus, unless the project is super high grade top secret black level stuff, security is actually going to be fairly light, sure a runner may come by and steal something, but that usually doesn't happen, and they're insured against that anyways. It's a calculated risk, they might get stolen from, but if they maintain basic secrecy and security, the likelyhood is low, and wireless systems provide too much benefit for the small decrease to security.

For a corp, efficiency always takes priority over security, and the bottom line takes priority over metahuman life.

[Telok]

In Shadowrun corps only care about one thing, money, every decision they make is cost-benefit analyzed and optimized to ensure the best bottom line possible.

But that's my point, it may well be cheaper to invest in some simple cables than to harden every device against intrusion. You obviously won't do it for everything, but anything where someone could spoof money transactions or security protocol should be fair game. And certainly if you have an automated gun emplacement in your building you'll want it wired so that someone with a cellphone (or a cellphone sized deck) can't make it go full-auto on some director and his entourage.

So wage-slave time clocks and offive supply orders would certainly be wireless, employee tracking and perhaps even the security patrol schedule are going to be wireless as well. But I can't see financial transactions and active defenses being accessable to anyone with a computer and a transmitter.

[Aux-Ash]

But that's my point, it may well be cheaper to invest in some simple cables than to harden every device against intrusion. You obviously won't do it for everything, but anything where someone could spoof money transactions or security protocol should be fair game. And certainly if you have an automated gun emplacement in your building you'll want it wired so that someone with a cellphone (or a cellphone sized deck) can't make it go full-auto on some director and his entourage.

So wage-slave time clocks and offive supply orders would certainly be wireless, employee tracking and perhaps even the security patrol schedule are going to be wireless as well. But I can't see financial transactions and active defenses being accessable to anyone with a computer and a transmitter.

There's a drawback to wiring the place as well. It's the lack of noise. If I start connecting stuff with wires, I need to put lots of it in for any remotely large facility. Every single meter of those wires are a weakspot. If an enemy decker gets access to those, in any fashion, he can get into your system with no penalties whatsoever. If it's wireless you can isolate rooms and corridors with inhibiting wallpaper and faraday cages. You can set up a nice garden which has foliage. Anything to make the connection to your place difficult. Plus you can make everything mobile. Another bonus is that you don't need to put access hatches to the cables to highlight where stuff is.

But a wire? Once he gets that he gets everything connected to the same network, and it's still not certain he'd need to be inside the facility. Plus they're kind of noticeable, as mentioned above (and whomever does maintenance will need blueprints detailing where just about everything is).

You're right that you may not want to keep everything wireless, or even on the same host (keeping the secret stuff on a separate host inside a faradays cage is just prudent). But wires aren't a deterrent to enemy deckers, they're big juicy targets.

[Thanatos 51-50]

There's an item in the core book (I forget the name and cost, but it's cheap) that lets you bug any hardline easily and access the entire system.
On the other hand, cyberdecks are expensive, specialist equipment that require a license and are the only real way to sling code on the go.

Stuffer Shacks are below the notice of most Deckers worth the time it took to customize their persona. The payoff is far too low.

EDIT:
The item is called a Data tap, and is on pp 440-441, for the "low, low price" of 600 nuyen

[Telok]

There's an item in the core book (I forget the name and cost, but it's cheap) that lets you bug any hardline easily and access the entire system.
On the other hand, cyberdecks are expensive, specialist equipment that require a license and are the only real way to sling code on the go.

Stuffer Shacks are below the notice of most Deckers worth the time it took to customize their persona. The payoff is far too low.

EDIT:
The item is called a Data tap, and is on pp 440-441, for the "low, low price" of 600 nuyen

So there is a little black box that auto hacks and decypts wired signals, bypassing all internal defenses? That's... Can you attach one to the antenna of a wireless device and get the same effect on the wireless network? It's the same thing since the only difference is whether you send the signal through the air or through a wire.

I mean, it is an effective way to force everything in the game to be wireless but it sort of ignores how the technology actually works.

[Turalisj]

A datatap is a Shadowrun version of a wire tap which... Is really just similar to a wire tap. It has a direct connection to both devices that are between the cable (it specifies CABLE, not wireless), but all you need to do is encrypt the data before it leaves the device (which should be done anyway).

Hardly easy access to a system.