Tarquin vs. Xykon

[Downzorz]

So, with Xykon soon to arrive at the Gate, and Tarquin also in pursuit of it, there's a huge possibility that the two will come into conflict. So who wins in a fight?

On one hand, if Xykon gets the drop on Tarquin, the general is done for. Respective levels aside, assuming Xykon knows, say, Forcecage (Spoiler: he does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html)) then Tarquin is hosed while Xykon is free to do whatever to him.

If Tarquin gets some advanced notice, things become a bit easier for him. We've seen Roy destroy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon in melee weaponless, so I'm sure that Tarquin (who is a demonstrably better fighter than Roy) can take him if he gets a shot. And if Tarquin gets Malack back first, that would probably be game. Two powerful clerics providing fire support, buffs, and healing for that much of a powerful warrior? Yeah, that's a win. Xykon and Redcloak have few options at that point past "flee."

Now, if it comes down to a more prolonged struggle, I think Tarquin has the upper hand. Both teams control giant empires, but Tarquin has much more of a tactical mind; Xykon conquered his empire by virtue of force alone. The ocean between them makes army-to-army confrontation doubtful at best; it comes down to "who has the better heroes?" and Tarquin has an adventuring party presumably as powerful as he is, and I think he would have a great chance of victory.

So... what does everyone else think?

[Gift Jeraff]

Roy destroying Xykon weaponless required an Epic wizard's last line of defense.

And Malack and Durkon are low on spells.

[Copperdragon]

In a conflict with Xykon, strategy and empires do not matter. Xykon will evade the enemy or force a direct, personal confrontation, nothing else is going to play any role.

I would be very surprised if Tarquin was not prepared to fight any caster, which means he very probably has some item of Spell Resistance and items that give him Resistances vs. all kinds of elemental damage. Given the numerous "save or die" spells that are based on death effects, I guess he also has something that gives him Death Ward.
That should take care of a lot a caster can throw out and surely will give him a few rounds where the caster is surprised his tactics did not work.
Tarquin also is secure from invisibility and many illusions due to his True Seeing.

Of course, Tarquin has nothing against a flying caster and it is questionable if his resistances can help a lot vs. a clearly epic caster. Also, the caster has more means than a fighter to get away should the tide turn against him.

Xykon is also immune to critical hits, which is a good thing in a one-on-one vs. any melee-based class. As undead, Xykon also has DR, which again is cutting off more from the damage that Tarquin does.

What plays in favour of Tarquin is that he starts the fight from the beginning in a methodical way, while Xykon blasts first and only starts to think in the third round if his method does not work (due to Tarquin's items). So Tarquin basically starts three or five rounds "ahead" before Xykon actually starts to take it serious. This is the edge he has in the fight and if he can use it, he might even able to win. If he cannot use that edge, he's just ending up as anyone else who has confronted Xykon this far.

[Downzorz]

Roy destroying Xykon weaponless required an Epic wizard's last line of defense.

And Malack and Durkon are low on spells.

Two good points. So Tarquin would have a harder time killing Xykon. Which means that Tarquin's only option facing Xykon alone would probably be to flee. But I still think that Team Tarquin is more of a threat to Xykon than the Order would be. And Malack has his staff full of "obscure" spells- I'd put good money on him having something up his sleeve that would be useful.

[Nymrod]

I kind of expect that in actual, challenging combat, Tarquin is Batman. He probably has a bag of holding with the right tool to kill anything that might threaten him. And given he has probably been briefed by Nale reasonably well, I expect he has a plan for any lich that might decide to show up.

[Trickquestion]

There's also the possibility that the thing Tarquin left to go do was call up the rest of his team. We don't know a lot about them, but if they're all at or a little below his level, they certainly have a good shot at beating Xykon, seeing as Tarquin himself beat most of the Order while holding back.

[King of Nowhere]

Xykon is more powerful, but tarquin is powerful enough that he can, with the rigt preparation, have a chance.
Basically, if xykon appears I would bet on him, but if Tarquin beat him, I won't be calling sheanigans.
Now, if Tarquin can get all his team together, he would have the upper hand. it's 6v1.
Uhm, I'm forgetting redcloak there. so, xxykon and redcloak vs tarquin is a sure win, against taraquin's team it could be almost even since malack is low on spells. Still i'd give the advantage to tarquin's team.


Of course, Tarquin has nothing against a flying caster
I don't see why not. In my book, getting some means to fly is the VERY FIRST preparation a fighter has to do against a caster that is high enough level to have a fly spell.

[Morty]

I don't give Tarquin good chances against Xykon. Sure, he's good - but probably not good enough to withstand Xykon if he gets serious. He might be able to keep up with Xykon for a few rounds if the lich underestimates him, but once that happens, Xykon will cut loose and obliterate him.

[Copperdragon]

Xykon and Redcloak are a pretty sure win against basically anybody. Both are not only powerful, but very clueful on fighting each of their own, and then they combine very well as a team (which means Redcloak is very able to decide where to put his and Xykon's ressources to best use and Xykon follows his advice once he understood it is a serious fight).

[Eldariel]

I don't see why not. In my book, getting some means to fly is the VERY FIRST preparation a fighter has to do against a caster that is high enough level to have a fly spell.

Or in general. Fighter who can't fly needs to resort to Archery vs. flying enemies (and most spellcasting enemies have plenty of annoying countermeasures you need to circumvent for that to work).

[AstralFire]

Tarquin is genre-savvy, not optimized; while you're both absolutely right that a Fighter who can't fly isn't being D&D 3E-savvy, I would honestly be surprised to see rings of fly or any other form of "flying melee" that eschews wings in this comic.

Why? Just feels... wrong.

I know that's vague, but we already know Tarquin could be much better optimized even from a realistic campaign standpoint.

[Nymrod]

Or in general. Fighter who can't fly needs to resort to Archery vs. flying enemies (and most spellcasting enemies have plenty of annoying countermeasures you need to circumvent for that to work).

Only if you are optimizing in the slightest, protection from arrows and wind wall destroy any archer (not that a fighter should not be an archer, it may be the only viable thing he CAN be).
Flight is not hard to acquire. But this is the OotS we are talking about it. The rules have to be contained so as not to screw the story (and let's face it, by their level, the order would destroy any story given WBL alone).

[Morty]

I really wouldn't bring optimization into this. But based on Tarquin's personality and past behaviour, I wouldn't be surprised if he did have some countermeasures against flying enemies.

[Chronos]

Actually, Tarquin is extremely optimized. He's just not optimized for maximum power. Rather, he's optimized for maximum cool. So the question we need to ask is, are boots of flying cool? I'd say so.

[AstralFire]

I suppose another way for me to state my view is that Tarquin is extremely genre-savvy, but he's still playing by the rules of convention for what a normal D&D campaign would have, and conventional D&D has just never had very many flying fighters unless they were Outsiders. That's why I think it's unlikely and he's more likely to have effective anti-flyer countermeasures than to fly himself.

[FlawedParadigm]

This again? :smallannoyed:

[AstralFire]

What? It's not like we have one of these threads all the time. Common, sure, but I can think of other things that get posted about more. With Xykon front and center, Tarquin's plan looming, and the Order effectively in non-combat status for a while... it's a logical thing for people to be thinking about.

[Morty]

Quite. It's not a random "versus" thread. A fight between Tarquin and Xykon is a real possibility, with both of them trying to seize Girard's Gate and Xykon's preferred resolution to such conflicts being to keep blasting until all dissension has been eradicated.

[SavageWombat]

I have trouble conflating the idea that Tarquin can beat Xykon in a fight with the assumptions being made elsewhere that Xykon is clearly 27th level or higher.

[rodneyAnonymous]

...Xykon is clearly 27th level or higher.

[citation needed]

Xykon is for sure 21+, and probably mid 20s, but at least high 20s? Dunno where that came from. The suggestion that a high teens warrior could beat a low 20s caster I can buy, but I think the caster would win 9 times out of 10.

[AstralFire]

Frankly, with their respective intelligences, resources, etc. - if we were doing this as a campaign, Tarquin would have a decent chance (if a minority one) to trump Xykon. But even if we were to avoid mechanics...

Narratively speaking, this would be a pretty decent time for the online comic (rather than merely the purchased material) to make Redcloak take center stage as the Big Bad over Xykon. And considering that both Miko and Tarquin have managed to take five PCs, and Roy manhandled Xykon, OotS clearly doesn't play by sheer mechanical reasoning when it discusses who would beat who.

[Snails]

[citation needed]

Xykon is for sure 21+, and probably mid 20s, but at least high 20s? Dunno where that came from. The suggestion that a high teens warrior could beat a low 20s caster I can buy, but I think the caster would win 9 times out of 10.

It has been argued that it is "reasonable" to assume that Xykon has at least 30 ranks in the skill Spellcraft, in order to have certain Epic spells, based on a train of logic that is fairly popular in the Class And Level Geekery threads. Their logic is less than unassailable (e.g. we do not know it is impossible for Xykon to have a item that gives a bonus to the Spellcraft skill).

If it is true that the Giant feels obliged to follow the letter of the RAW and if it is true that the Giant is not providing Xykon with any non-SRD magical items or feat, then it is difficult to see how Xykon could be less than 27th level.

I happen to think both those if's are doubtful.

[Kish]

I very much hope to see this actually happen. In large part, because--stats entirely aside--I'm pretty confident that if it does happen, it will consist of Tarquin being "gently" informed that Xykon is the main villain of the comic and Tarquin is a third-stringer villain with delusions of grandeur.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"Xykon might be 27+" and "Xykon is clearly 27+" are very different statements. One is true and one is not, for example.

[AstralFire]

I very much hope to see this actually happen. In large part, because--stats entirely aside--I'm pretty confident that if it does happen, it will consist of Tarquin being "gently" informed that Xykon is the main villain of the comic and Tarquin is a third-stringer villain with delusions of grandeur.

I think people who dislike Tarquin are overplaying the amount of ego he has for himself. Tarquin's well-aware that there's a bigger threat out there. He doesn't like the fact that there is, but he doesn't try to argue with Elan over it.

I do think Xykon will strip Tarquin of his plot armor, but I don't think it'll be the way you've described.

[Olinser]

"Xykon might be 27+" and "Xykon is clearly 27+" are very different statements. One is true and one is not, for example.

Whether he's 21 or 27, the main point is that for Tarquin to beat Xykon 1v1 would require absolutely ridiculous Deus-Ex-Machina intervention by Rich, in the form of, 'I just happen to have the perfect magic items to counter every spell you have. Never mind I hadn't mentioned any of them before.'

Fighters simply do not hold up against Epic Spellcasters, much less Epic Lich Spellcasters.

Now as for whether Tarquin's entire adventuring party could beat Xykon and Redcloak... that's possible, but as many threads have already proven, the winner in that fight can be reasonably determined by Rich to be whichever side the plot needs to win.

[Nymrod]

Whether he's 21 or 27, the main point is that for Tarquin to beat Xykon 1v1 would require absolutely ridiculous Deus-Ex-Machina intervention by Rich, in the form of, 'I just happen to have the perfect magic items to counter every spell you have. Never mind I hadn't mentioned any of them before.'

Fighters simply do not hold up against Epic Spellcasters, much less Epic Lich Spellcasters.

Now as for whether Tarquin's entire adventuring party could beat Xykon and Redcloak... that's possible, but as many threads have already proven, the winner in that fight can be reasonably determined by Rich to be whichever side the plot needs to win.

All you need is to charge and activate an antimagic field generating item.

[Morty]

Whether he's 21 or 27, the main point is that for Tarquin to beat Xykon 1v1 would require absolutely ridiculous Deus-Ex-Machina intervention by Rich, in the form of, 'I just happen to have the perfect magic items to counter every spell you have. Never mind I hadn't mentioned any of them before.'

Fighters simply do not hold up against Epic Spellcasters, much less Epic Lich Spellcasters.

It would be relevant if this comic obeyed D&D rules. It doesn't, so it isn't.

Of course, Tarquin is still unlikely to survive a hostile encounter with Xykon, based on what we know about those two characters. But relative power level of D&D classes has nothing to do with it.

[Nymrod]

Keep in mind that Xykon got to show his stuff on his level appropriate encounter. If he gets to fight Tarquin there is little to gain narratively by him trouncing yet another opponent.

[Acanous]

I imagine the fight would go three rounds where Xykon tries a few "Normal" tricks. Meteor Swarm, Finger of Death, etc. Tarquin will beat on the Lich, and Xykon might actually start to hurt a little.

Then he'll go "Superb Dispelling. Quickened Phantasmal Killer. GG."

[Ionbound]

Whether he's 21 or 27, the main point is that for Tarquin to beat Xykon 1v1 would require absolutely ridiculous Deus-Ex-Machina intervention by Rich, in the form of, 'I just happen to have the perfect magic items to counter every spell you have. Never mind I hadn't mentioned any of them before.'


Isn't it canon that that Tarquin has that anyways? Like when he was pun-dueling Elan way back when?

[Snails]

I expect we have not seen the last of the Antimagic trick. Xykon and Redcloak are quite vulnerable to the tactic.

Xykon can dispel Antimagic while under its effect, by employing Epic magic, but it is not a sure thing and his epic spell slots are a limited resource. Even if he were 27th level, how many Epic spells can he cast in a day? Five or six? Perhaps fewer, if he chose any Epic feats other than Improved Spell Capacity.

[Olinser]

Keep in mind that Xykon got to show his stuff on his level appropriate encounter. If he gets to fight Tarquin there is little to gain narratively by him trouncing yet another opponent.

The narrative gains by demonstrating Tarquin to be nothing more than a silver-tongued mid-tier character with delusions of grandeur playing in a league outside his power ranking.

Not to mention moving the story along by beginning the elimination of antagonists.

[Olinser]

It would be relevant if this comic obeyed D&D rules. It doesn't, so it isn't.

Of course, Tarquin is still unlikely to survive a hostile encounter with Xykon, based on what we know about those two characters. But relative power level of D&D classes has nothing to do with it.

The comic obeys its own internal rules, which are based heavily on D&D 3.5 rules. V isn't going to suddenly start casting 9th level wizard spells next panel, Elan isn't going to spontaneously acquire Lay on Hands, Roy isn't going to pick up a bow and be a better archer than Haley, and Xykon isn't going to start casting cleric spells.

Tarquin is a close-combat fighter, and has demonstrated absolutely nothing that would cast him as a solo threat to Xykon, without him suddenly spontaneously pulling multiple major magical items that have never been used before out of his belt (which would just be lazy on Rich's part).

The only way he could realistically defeat Xykon would be for him to call in his full adventuring party. Even then, as I've previously said, the fight would be close enough that Rich having either side win would be perfectly realistic.

[Thrillhouse]

With his genre-savviness, Tarquin will recognize that, as a lesser villain, it's his job to grudingly team up with the heroes in order to overcome this greater foe, with zany antics sure to ensue in the process.

[ooknabah]

Thrillhouse hit on exactly what I was going for: What could be a better gift for his son than a redeemed father (figure) dying while finally standing up to the true evil. That's the stuff that sagas are made out of!

[AstralFire]

The narrative gains by demonstrating Tarquin to be nothing more than a silver-tongued mid-tier character with delusions of grandeur playing in a league outside his power ranking.

Wow, some people really have it in for the guy. Considering that he's openly got his sights set lower than world conquest for the explicit reason that it's too much hassle without a high enough chance of success... I'm not sure why people keep talking like he's another Nale.

[Kish]

Keep in mind that Xykon got to show his stuff on his level appropriate encounter. If he gets to fight Tarquin there is little to gain narratively by him trouncing yet another opponent.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "his level appropriate encounter." Soon? Spliced-Vaarsuvius? Either way. The board is full of people who believe that Tarquin is somewhere in the "could pose a serious threat to Xykon" to "Xykon had better just hope Tarquin doesn't turn his invincible will toward crushing him" range. It is particularly ironic to post in this thread suggesting that "Xykon smashing Tarquin" would not establish anything that is not already known.

[WindStruck]

I think if Tarquin put up an anti-magic field, Xykon could simply throw the scenery at him. Sorta like how he dropped a rock from the ceiling on V's head, but being a lot rougher. Also, I am curious to know just how decked out Tarquin may be... could he have epic magic items? Say, immunity to all 5 energy types?

[Aleolus]

Roy destroying Xykon weaponless required an Epic wizard's last line of defense.

And a near barbarian-level rage over having lost his sword. Yep.

[137beth]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "his level appropriate encounter." Soon? Spliced-Vaarsuvius? Either way. The board is full of people who believe that Tarquin is somewhere in the "could pose a serious threat to Xykon" to "Xykon had better just hope Tarquin doesn't turn his invincible will toward crushing him" range. It is particularly ironic to post in this thread suggesting that "Xykon smashing Tarquin" would not establish anything that is not already known.

A claim that Tarquin could beat Xykon is not that crazy by this board's standards. Compare it to, for example, the host of people convinced (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281575) that Xykon would lose in a solo fight against Dorukan (even though he lost), against soul-spliced V (even though he lost), and against the dead ancient black dragon. Or heck, we even had someone with a crazy idea that V could solo Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213985)--no, not even spliced V, he honestly thought that unspliced, normal V could beat Xykon without V having to use magic items.
So if someone thinks that Tarquin could beat Xykon in a solo fight, while it may sound sorta crazy, it is substantially less crazy than other speculation about NPCs beating Xykon in fights on this forum:smalltongue:

[Olinser]

A claim that Tarquin could beat Xykon is not that crazy by this board's standards. Compare it to, for example, the host of people convinced (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281575) that Xykon would lose in a solo fight against Dorukan (even though he lost), against soul-spliced V (even though he lost), and against the dead ancient black dragon. Or heck, we even had someone with a crazy idea that V could solo Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213985)--no, not even spliced V, he honestly thought that unspliced, normal V could beat Xykon without V having to use magic items.
So if someone thinks that Tarquin could beat Xykon in a solo fight, while it may sound sorta crazy, it is substantially less crazy than other speculation about NPCs beating Xykon in fights on this forum:smalltongue:

Other than Dorukan and V, those claims requires said characters to suddenly use stupidly optimized spells, builds, abilities or items while requiring Xykon to abruptly be reduced to a high-functioning moron. Dorukan legitimately COULD have won - but his victory was most definitely not a foregone conclusion. Soul Spliced V by all rights SHOULD have mopped the floor with Xykon - but being drunk on power V acted like a moron and squandered all hir advantages.

That is basically what is required for Tarquin to win 1v1. Tarquin suddenly has to produce multiple never-before-used high level magic items, while Xykon sits there and does nothing to counter them.

Just because people have attempted to justify outlandish claims before doesn't make them any less ridiculous.

[AstralFire]

I don't see what's so bloody crazy about the notion that Tarquin could beat Xykon - this is the same comic where a non-epic Fighter just faced a level 14 Rogue, Barb/Ranger, Bard/Swordsman, Fighter, and Melee Cleric who'd eaten only one AoE damage spell and came out on top. The same comic where a Level 12 Monk/Paladin whipped a 12 Wizard, Bard, Barb/Ranger, Rogue, and Fighter all at once, then got owned pretty hard in a solo rematch with the Fighter who'd gained one magic item while she lost.... basically zero abilities that would have been relevant to fighting a non-evil Fighter.

I believe in most cases he would lose rather badly, but Xykon's not only let his guard down before, but he's had the most success against other casters by beating them at their own game.

[torugo]

I didnt read all the posts on this but the first page seemed as a concensus that Tarquin couldnt fly....and thats dumb. He already showed that he can fight a flying foe....he has a pterosaurus that flies pretty well.

Xykon could kill it, yes...but Tarquin would be able to make some hits before that. As said before...Xykon first strikes then thinks....first round would be of Xykon energy-draining Tarquin...which probably wont work....then later he would do something against the pterousaur.

[Emanick]

I don't see what's so bloody crazy about the notion that Tarquin could beat Xykon - this is the same comic where a non-epic Fighter just faced a level 14 Rogue, Barb/Ranger, Bard/Swordsman, Fighter, and Melee Cleric who'd eaten only one AoE damage spell and came out on top. The same comic where a Level 12 Monk/Paladin whipped a 12 Wizard, Bard, Barb/Ranger, Rogue, and Fighter all at once, then got owned pretty hard in a solo rematch with the Fighter who'd gained one magic item while she lost.... basically zero abilities that would have been relevant to fighting a non-evil Fighter.

I believe in most cases he would lose rather badly, but Xykon's not only let his guard down before, but he's had the most success against other casters by beating them at their own game.

Tarquin didn't "come out on top" against the Order, he just gave them a rough time. They were doing fine against him until Malack started attacking from the air - and at that point, combat in an exposed area became unthinkably stupid. They retreated because of the Flame Strike and their inability to defend against future air attacks, not because Tarquin had demonstrated the capability to defeat them by himself.

And why assume that Miko was level 12? This is a paladin/monk who defeated a 15th-16th level cleric in, like, 3 rounds. I always pegged her at level 16ish myself.

[137beth]

Other than Dorukan and V, those claims requires said characters to suddenly use stupidly optimized spells, builds, abilities or items while requiring Xykon to abruptly be reduced to a high-functioning moron. Dorukan legitimately COULD have won - but his victory was most definitely not a foregone conclusion. Soul Spliced V by all rights SHOULD have mopped the floor with Xykon - but being drunk on power V acted like a moron and squandered all hir advantages.

That is basically what is required for Tarquin to win 1v1. Tarquin suddenly has to produce multiple never-before-used high level magic items, while Xykon sits there and does nothing to counter them.

Just because people have attempted to justify outlandish claims before doesn't make them any more ridiculous.
Uh, yea, that's the point, that's what I said:sigh:
Oh, except that soul-spliced V may not necessarily have won against Xykon, even if he/she played more effectively. It might have been closer, but V could still have lost everything with a low concentration score, and had an inventory of items appropriate to a mid-leveled caster, so you are going to have to work a lot harder if you want to justify any possiblity of soul-spliced V beating Xykon, no matter how clever he/she was in his/her tactics.
And it still doesn't matter, since soul-spliced V lost anyways:smallsigh:

[Olinser]

I don't see what's so bloody crazy about the notion that Tarquin could beat Xykon - this is the same comic where a non-epic Fighter just faced a level 14 Rogue, Barb/Ranger, Bard/Swordsman, Fighter, and Melee Cleric who'd eaten only one AoE damage spell and came out on top. The same comic where a Level 12 Monk/Paladin whipped a 12 Wizard, Bard, Barb/Ranger, Rogue, and Fighter all at once, then got owned pretty hard in a solo rematch with the Fighter who'd gained one magic item while she lost.... basically zero abilities that would have been relevant to fighting a non-evil Fighter.

I believe in most cases he would lose rather badly, but Xykon's not only let his guard down before, but he's had the most success against other casters by beating them at their own game.

THREE AOE damage spells, actually - two empowered Vitriolic Spheres and a Control Winds that did significant falling damage to all of them, in addition to being 'sharp', according to Elan (possibly Rich's homebrew that inflicts damage). They were all showing pretty significant OOTSverse damage graphics when Tarquin dropped down. And then a 4th AOE in the form of flame strike.

And Tarquin really wasn't doing that great. He did pretty well by neutralizing attacks and making sure he was only fighting 1 of them at once - tripping Roy, catching and arrow and using it to throw Belkar aside, and judo tossing Durkon far away. Once they actually started hitting him en masse, he took pretty significant damage in a round, that his regeneration wasn't able to completely handle. A couple more rounds and he would have been in serious trouble.

And even though I agree it was ridiculous and stupidly contrived that she beat them all, there is no evidence Miko was only level 12. And the difference between a fighter using a random nonmagical weapon, and a specific +5 weapon that he has multiple feats specializing in, is ENORMOUS. With his feats and a +5 enchantment, we're talking about a difference of +7 attack rolls and +9 damage rolls on ALL attacks and double chance for a critical. If he wanted to transfer the attack bonus into damage via Power Attack so that you can do a straight comparison without dragging hit percentages into it, then with him getting double damage per +attack sacrificed, for wielding a 2 handed weapon, the difference is +23 damage PER ATTACK (though for his 3rd attack he'd be stuck with 'only' +13 damage, not being able to take less than the +2 BAB off). We're talking about 23+23+13 = 59 damage PER ROUND difference between his nonmagical Greatclub and his +5 Greatsword.

The point is that Tarquin has certainly shown himself to be competent and powerful, but to think he can stand toe-to-toe against an Epic Lich Spellcaster is pretty absurd, and requires him to win via the Power of Plot.

[AstralFire]

Mm. All points well-taken. Miko's level was never stated? I thought I remembered seeing Mr. Burlew do a mechanical breakdown of the fight as he'd imagined it.

[WindStruck]

Well, Miko's level probably isn't clear, though I'm pretty sure she took a few levels in badass. Or was that stick-up-the-ass. I was never quite sure...

[Emanick]

Well, Miko's level probably isn't clear, though I'm pretty sure she took a few levels in badass. Or was that stick-up-the-ass. I was never quite sure...

There's less of a difference between the two than you might think. :smallwink:

[Yumori Zatsuken]

Well,if it was a solo duel,Tarquin could kick Xykon's butt bone.Roy managed to "kill" Xykon due to the skeleton's arrogance.Also,on War And XP,Roy got killed because the sorcerer fought him on a dragon,and not finding another way to battle the lich on the ground with the Order.When the Linear Guild arrived on their first skirmish at Girard's gate,Tarquin easily bested the order,using Glamoured Armor,which is a weak ability.On the second fight,Tarquin and the Linear Guild lost,mainly due to Nale stepping on the traps,getting his butt kicked by a Holy word.However,if it was Tarquin and Malack only,they could have won,if Malack was strong enough to resist Holy word.While Xykon could easily kill Roy,and if the Order,too.While Tarquin,could defeat the Order,and xykon himself.Call it an even fight,TArquin may be epic level too.

However,if Army Vs. Army:
Tarquin and his army with his fellow adventurer's armies,Tarquin has the upper hand,Since Xykon's intelligence may be so high,but he is still arrogant,not giving an ass about tactics,Tarquin,also has the command of several empires,which may have a giant horde of humans.With clever planning and Tarquin using all his smarts,he can kill Xykon

[Morty]

The comic obeys its own internal rules, which are based heavily on D&D 3.5 rules. V isn't going to suddenly start casting 9th level wizard spells next panel, Elan isn't going to spontaneously acquire Lay on Hands, Roy isn't going to pick up a bow and be a better archer than Haley, and Xykon isn't going to start casting cleric spells.


The comic's internal rules, by the author's explicit admission (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883932&postcount=205) do not include class balance.

We have plenty of reasons to believe that Tarquin is no match for Xykon. "D&D Fighters are weaker than D&D Sorcerers" isn't one of them. I think the Giant even said that Tarquin's class isn't Fighter but simply Tarquin, but I can't find the post if he did.

[Xelbiuj]

I think the Giant even said that Tarquin's class isn't Fighter but simply Tarquin, but I can't find the post if he did.

If that's true, that's terrible. It's not about balance, screw balance, it's about consistency within the fictional world.

If mundanes are going to be as powerful as those that can "bend reality to their will", the story should be changed, not the rules of that universe.
Tarquin has caster allies, enough money for any magic items, and Rich "nudging the die", there's no reason he should be exempt.

When consistency is no longer a factor, magic in any fiction whether it's LotR, HP, whatever, becomes nothing but deus ex machina. Likewise with physical combat, Tarquin has became Neo (in a lot of people's eyes) and doesn't even need to dodge bullets anymore.

[Nymrod]

I think the Giant even said that Tarquin's class isn't Fighter but simply Tarquin, but I can't find the post if he did.

If that's true, that's terrible. It's not about balance, screw balance, it's about consistency within the fictional world.

If mundanes are going to be as powerful as those that can "bend reality to their will", the story should be changed, not the rules of that universe.
Tarquin has caster allies, enough money for any magic items, and Rich "nudging the die", there's no reason he should be exempt.

When consistency is no longer a factor, magic in any fiction whether it's LotR, HP, whatever, becomes nothing but deus ex machina. Likewise with physical combat, Tarquin has became Neo (in a lot of people's eyes) and doesn't even need to dodge bullets anymore.

Rich said that because at that point in time the forum was at an all time high of "This comic sucks! It doesn't follow the rules! Rich is a bad writer who likes kicking puppies!" especially at the Class and Level Geekery thread. So he kind of reacted to that . . .

[Morty]

I think the Giant even said that Tarquin's class isn't Fighter but simply Tarquin, but I can't find the post if he did.

If that's true, that's terrible. It's not about balance, screw balance, it's about consistency within the fictional world.

If mundanes are going to be as powerful as those that can "bend reality to their will", the story should be changed, not the rules of that universe.
Tarquin has caster allies, enough money for any magic items, and Rich "nudging the die", there's no reason he should be exempt.

When consistency is no longer a factor, magic in any fiction whether it's LotR, HP, whatever, becomes nothing but deus ex machina. Likewise with physical combat, Tarquin has became Neo (in a lot of people's eyes) and doesn't even need to dodge bullets anymore.

It wouldn't be terrible, because it would make no difference. That's the whole point. Whether Tarquin's class is Fighter, Tarquin, Bicycle Raddish or nothing at all makes zilch difference. What counts is his abilities as shown on-screen or related by characters. We know Tarquin calls himself a warrior. We saw him fight off five members of the Order using defensive combat techniques. We know he's strong enough to shrug off Durkon's Holy Word. We know he has many magic items for various occasions. We don't need D&D rules to know any of this.

[Nymrod]

I expect we have not seen the last of the Antimagic trick. Xykon and Redcloak are quite vulnerable to the tactic.

Xykon can dispel Antimagic while under its effect, by employing Epic magic, but it is not a sure thing and his epic spell slots are a limited resource. Even if he were 27th level, how many Epic spells can he cast in a day? Five or six? Perhaps fewer, if he chose any Epic feats other than Improved Spell Capacity.

Actually he can defeat antimagic with Disjunction (9th level), or epic spells of which he can only cast 2 (or 3 if he is 27+, epic spells per day are ranks in Knowledge skill/10).

[Gift Jeraff]

He didn't say Tarquin's class is "Tarquin," he said he's purposefully obfuscating the exact mechanics and all new characters have unspecified classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15179104&postcount=1464). Though it might be worth noting Malack and Gannji, characters about as "new" as Tarquin, have had their classes revealed.

[137beth]

Roy managed to "kill" Xykon due to the skeleton's arrogance.
Roy managed to "kill" Xykon because of the ultimate final defense of an epic wizard.

Also,on War And XP,Roy got killed because the sorcerer fought him on a dragon,and not finding another way to battle the lich on the ground with the Order
If Roy had found a way to duel Xykon on the ground, he would have died anyways (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html).

When the Linear Guild arrived on their first skirmish at Girard's gate,Tarquin easily bested the order,using Glamoured Armor,which is a weak ability.
Glamored armor is an illusion, whose sole purpose was to help convince the order than Tarquin was Thog. He didn't use it to beat them.

On the second fight,Tarquin and the Linear Guild lost,mainly due to Nale stepping on the traps,getting his butt kicked by a Holy word.
Remember Tarquin was at full health when he withdrew, he was trying to prevent Nale and Z from being killed.

However,if it was Tarquin and Malack only,they could have won,if Malack was strong enough to resist Holy word.
Please explain this.

[Warren Dew]

The narrative gains by demonstrating Tarquin to be nothing more than a silver-tongued mid-tier character with delusions of grandeur playing in a league outside his power ranking.
I haven't seen any evidence that Tarquin is at all unrealistic about his power level, or that he thinks he could go toe to toe with whatever bad guy Elan is trying to deal with, i.e., Xykon.

[David Argall]

The plot says that X is our big bad, and he is not going to lose until the grand finale, even when he should. Nor does the evidence give us any reason to think Tarquin would have a prayer. He may make the lich have to stretch himself, but he would not be justified in saying he was robbed by the plot.

[Morty]

He didn't say Tarquin's class is "Tarquin," he said he's purposefully obfuscating the exact mechanics and all new characters have unspecified classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15179104&postcount=1464). Though it might be worth noting Malack and Gannji, characters about as "new" as Tarquin, have had their classes revealed.

Ah, yes. Looks like the "Tarquin's class is Tarquin" bit was a result of the forum telephone game. But either way, his class isn't actually specified to be Fighter.

[JBiddles]

I very much doubt Tarquin could beat Xykon. Xykon's strengths are his personal manipulation, his allies, his phylactery, his planning and his sheer bloody-mindedness. Xykon knew he was outmatched by Dorukan, so he acquired the psychological advantage. Vaarsuvius+Ganonron+Jephton dwarfed Xykon in terms of arcane power, but the lich's allies saved him. Tarquin and the Linear Guild might survive a few rounds against Team Evil, but even 1v1 Tarquin vs. Xykon probably wouldn't go well for Tarquin.

[Xelbiuj]

I very much doubt Tarquin could beat Xykon. Xykon's strengths are his personal manipulation, his allies, his phylactery, his planning and his sheer bloody-mindedness. Xykon knew he was outmatched by Dorukan, so he acquired the psychological advantage. Vaarsuvius+Ganonron+Jephton dwarfed Xykon in terms of arcane power, but the lich's allies saved him. Tarquin and the Linear Guild might survive a few rounds against Team Evil, but even 1v1 Tarquin vs. Xykon probably wouldn't go well for Tarquin.

Xykon wasn't out matched by Dorukan, he beat him and the angels he gated in.
The entire fight took place in the air so it's not like Xykon had any allies assisting him. \energy drain \ENERGY DRAIN \ENERGY DRAIN

Planning isn't his strength, that's Redcloak's. Smashing ish until it dies is Xykon's generally preferred method.
And the fight versus V, wasn't really 1 sided, Xykon's minions didn't "save him", RC gave him 2 pieces of advice, V was soul spliced (which means energy drain was* working) and to dispell, which Xykon being a sorcerer against another caster, would have gotten to anyways.

[Thrillhouse]

The key question is not, "does Xykon have the necessary firepower to win the fight?" That's not really in dispute. What IS in dispute is whether Xykon will actually make proper use of his power in response to whatever Tarquin pulls.

As we've seen before, Xykon doesn't really do well against unconventional tactics, and needs Redcloak to tell him what to do. He used fire and lighting against the spirit-paladins, not knowing that this was a very ineffective damage type. Even against Darth V, he just focused on trying to match V's raw power (and actually managing to do so, which should tell you just how much arcane muscle he's got), but needed Redcloak to figure out that he could win the fight with pretty much a single spell.

Heck, without Redcloak's suggested defenses, V's timestop might have succeeded and who knows how the fight would have gone?

Basically, Tarquin will likely pull something OTHER than brute force. The issue is whether Redcloak will be there, and if not, whether Xykon will be able to figure out how to work around his tactics.

[Rakoa]

Xykon is smart, to a degree, but not tactically. His strategy is to blast, and if something is still alive, blast it some more. Tarquin could quite easily outmaneuver Xykon, and with his seemingly endless array of magical items (Jarlaxle, anyone?), he could probably come out on top. I'm fairly convinced he could handle Xykon. Tarquin is kind of like Evil Batman.

[Yumori Zatsuken]

If Roy had found a way to duel Xykon on the ground, he would have died anyways (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html).

I didn't say that if Roy could find a way to defeat Xykon on the ground,If the Order can regroup and defeat Xykon.


Glamored armor is an illusion, whose sole purpose was to help convince the order than Tarquin was Thog. He didn't use it to beat them.

I didn't play DnD before.So,it still counts as a win for Tarquin,since it isnt a tool for defeating the order,but he still defeated them.


Remember Tarquin was at full health when he withdrew, he was trying to prevent Nale and Z from being killed.

I Forgot that Tarquin cant fight in Girard's Gate,since he has a frickin Latigo,or whatever you call it.So,most likely,he could die with Kilkil if Xykon arrives.

[JCAll]

I didn't play DnD before.So,it still counts as a win for Tarquin,since it isnt a tool for defeating the order,but he still defeated them.

But it did help him against the Order. It made them think he was Thog, so they used the tactics they would use against Thog, and ran unprepared into a much greater threat.

Like a Lich that wraps himself in bandages to make people think he's a mummy, just to screw with their heads.

[Coat]

...Malack and Durkon are low on spells.

And Tarquin is down to his whip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html).
Probably not my first weapon of choice against an epic sorcerer lich.


That is basically what is required for Tarquin to win 1v1. Tarquin suddenly has to produce multiple never-before-used high level magic items, while Xykon sits there and does nothing to counter them.

Yes, but Tarquin has already been shown to have

A ring of regeneration capable of fixing serious wounds very quickly
Another ring of regeneration
A ring of true seeing
Extra-strength Keoghtum Ointment
A flying carpet
An almost-certainly very magical axe


That's a decent list of pretty high level magic items. Pulling out a couple more high power items isn't lazy writing - it's pretty heavily signposted.

In particular, Tarquin's BFF is a vampire. Tarquin's loyal to his friends, and he trusts Malack, but he's not dumb. If he's not packing something that protects him from level drain, I will be very surprised.True, that's a disjunction or superb dispelling from no defence at all - but that's still a round for Tarquin to do something smart.

Like, for example, RUN.

[Tock Zipporah]

Tarquin is a close-combat fighter, and has demonstrated absolutely nothing that would cast him as a solo threat to Xykon, without him suddenly spontaneously pulling multiple major magical items that have never been used before out of his belt (which would just be lazy on Rich's part).

The only way he could realistically defeat Xykon would be for him to call in his full adventuring party. Even then, as I've previously said, the fight would be close enough that Rich having either side win would be perfectly realistic.

...

That is basically what is required for Tarquin to win 1v1. Tarquin suddenly has to produce multiple never-before-used high level magic items, while Xykon sits there and does nothing to counter them.

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that Tarquin hasn't yet been in a situation where he HAD to flex his full capabilities. He was toying with the OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) when he fought them, and didn't seem to consider them a clear threat. Thus he likely didn't pull all of his tricks and abilities.

Similarly, Xykon has done the same thing in the past. The first time he fought the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), he spent half the battle casting Magic Missile (because he wanted the good guys to live long enough to open the Gate for him). This is despite the fact that we know Xykon was ALREADY epic during Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, as evidenced by Celia when she explained that Xykon re-cast the Cloister spell while they were still in the Dungeon of Dorukon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) Even in the Battle for Azure City, Xykon never casts anything above 9th level, because he wanted to have some fun killing the paladins. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html)

Yet when it was a challenge to his rep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Xykon broke out the Epic spells and uber-evil-baddassness. Big time. Who's to say Tarquin won't do the same thing? None of the fights with Tarquin so far have really "pushed" him or challenged his reputation or capabilities. He could easily have Epic feats that he saves for emergencies (especially since Tarquin seems like the type of guy to save things like that for the right moment, so as not to show his full hand).

[Emanick]

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that Tarquin hasn't yet been in a situation where he HAD to flex his full capabilities. He was toying with the OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) when he fought them, and didn't seem to consider them a clear threat. Thus he likely didn't pull all of his tricks and abilities.

Similarly, Xykon has done the same thing in the past. The first time he fought the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), he spent half the battle casting Magic Missile (because he wanted the good guys to live long enough to open the Gate for him). This is despite the fact that we know Xykon was ALREADY epic during Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, as evidenced by Celia when she explained that Xykon re-cast the Cloister spell while they were still in the Dungeon of Dorukon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) Even in the Battle for Azure City, Xykon never casts anything above 9th level, because he wanted to have some fun killing the paladins. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html)

Yet when it was a challenge to his rep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Xykon broke out the Epic spells and uber-evil-baddassness. Big time. Who's to say Tarquin won't do the same thing? None of the fights with Tarquin so far have really "pushed" him or challenged his reputation or capabilities. He could easily have Epic feats that he saves for emergencies (especially since Tarquin seems like the type of guy to save things like that for the right moment, so as not to show his full hand).

They're not quite the same thing, though. We've seen that Tarquin got heavily damaged during the fight, and we certainly can't say that he could have beaten the Order by himself. If he hadn't had a way to heal himself, he might not even have lasted as long as he did.

I think Tarquin was as confident as he was in part because his allies were close enough to help him out if he got into a tough spot. Xykon, in contrast, was confident in the situations you mentioned because he never had a reason to feel threatened at all. And (at least in those cases) he was never as heavily damaged as we've seen Tarquin appear during his battle with the Order.

[happycrow]

Down to his whip?

PERFECT weapon for going up against an epic spellcasting lich.
You're not going to drop the guy in a hit-point race. Tying up his hands and wrapping it around his head, then tossing him off the pyramid, or using the pyramid for bludgeoning damage, on the other hand satisfies two conditions:

1. Fighteresque
2. Cool

But I stand by my post of a month or so ago -- there won't be a fight. Tarquin is there to negotiate, and any combat that ensues will be Tarquin realizing that the other party ain't interested, with him just doing what he needs to do to flee.

[Kish]

Tying up his hands and wrapping it around his head, then tossing him off the pyramid, or using the pyramid for bludgeoning damage,
:xykon: Still Meteor Swarm.

[quasit]

I think if Tarquin put up an anti-magic field, Xykon could simply throw the scenery at him. Sorta like how he dropped a rock from the ceiling on V's head, but being a lot rougher. Also, I am curious to know just how decked out Tarquin may be... could he have epic magic items? Say, immunity to all 5 energy types?

I'm sure that Tarquin is more than able to chew any scenery thrown at him, while dim lighting the own son for a moment via an obscure feat :smallbiggrin:

Now seriously, everything would depend on the terms of the engagement. Xykon has a lot of spells that I expect to have not spent at that point and Tarqin now has only a probably non-magic whip to defend himself. Other items may balance things a bit and he owns at least a ring that allows him to shrug off wounds like greatsword trought his body, dagger through his knew and an arrow to the face added together and an armor probably loaded with enchantments. He did't flinched to the potential half of 15d6 (or an quarter not subject to fire immunity) damage from malacks flame strike either (due a ring of evasion, I guess edit: nay, he didnt seem to ever bother to dodge the blow).

[Icewraith]

Tarquin should have no interest in engaging Xykon. Xykon, as a scenery-chewing main villain, is unlikely to lose any encounters from this point forward except the last one. Since there is one more gate he will suffer at most one severe but not permanent setback involving this one.

Allying with him would be even worse, since the slightly-less-powerful overlord who allies with the main villain to crush their common enemy/avoid a conflict of power usually gets outmaneuvered and is killed/loses his own organization by/to the main villain in a botched betrayal attempt.

Attempting to infiltrate Xykon's organization via a similar ruse guarantees him the same fate, since the smart and skilled infiltrator tends to die bravely in the process of engineering a major defeat of the evil overlord or allowing the escape of a key prisoner.

Mainly though, any combat encounter with Xykon at this point in the story will serve to reinforce just how badass Xykon is, or show off some new capabilities. A direct encounter with Xykon, ESPECIALLY with Tarquin's entire adventuring team, would seal their fate. If the order observes this fight they will undoubtably learn crucial information that can eventually be used to defeat Xykon, but Tarquin isn't the sort of father to take a fall for his son.

[tanonev]

Of course, in the upcoming pages, both Tarquin and Xykon have something far better than magic items protecting them: Plot Armor. Xykon is The Big Bad and therefore can't be defeated by anyone besides the protagonists; Tarquin is Elan's Personal Big Bad in his Backstory/Development Sidequest Chain, so he can't die until Elan makes up his mind about what to think about his father.

The difference between them is Tarquin is Genre Savvy, so he knows he's safe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). So the exciting question: Is Genre Savvy part of a feat chain? Is Tarquin about to demonstrate how to exploit Plot Armor to do far better than reasonable in an upcoming confrontation?

[Tock Zipporah]

Of course, in the upcoming pages, both Tarquin and Xykon have something far better than magic items protecting them: Plot Armor. Xykon is The Big Bad and therefore can't be defeated by anyone besides the protagonists; Tarquin is Elan's Personal Big Bad in his Backstory/Development Sidequest Chain, so he can't die until Elan makes up his mind about what to think about his father.

The difference between them is Tarquin is Genre Savvy, so he knows he's safe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). So the exciting question: Is Genre Savvy part of a feat chain? Is Tarquin about to demonstrate how to exploit Plot Armor to do far better than reasonable in an upcoming confrontation?

There is a serious flaw in considering anyone "immune to defeat" because of plot purposes. Namely, there are ways to make a character fail/lose/suffer without necessarily killing them. Redcloak lost an eye, Durkon got vamped, and Xykon got blown up once even though his phylactery let him return. Also, you can have a failure like in Azure City: Xykon and Redcloak got a serious beat down and "failed" to accomplish their goal (since Miko destroyed the gate).

Thus, Tarquin could theoretically "defeat" Xykon without actually destroying him. He could debilitate him, drive him off, or anything else and Xykon would "lose" but still be back to fight again another day.

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin should have no interest in engaging Xykon. Xykon, as a scenery-chewing main villain, is unlikely to lose any encounters from this point forward except the last one. Since there is one more gate he will suffer at most one severe but not permanent setback involving this one.

Allying with him would be even worse, since the slightly-less-powerful overlord who allies with the main villain to crush their common enemy/avoid a conflict of power usually gets outmaneuvered and is killed/loses his own organization by/to the main villain in a botched betrayal attempt.

Attempting to infiltrate Xykon's organization via a similar ruse guarantees him the same fate, since the smart and skilled infiltrator tends to die bravely in the process of engineering a major defeat of the evil overlord or allowing the escape of a key prisoner.

Mainly though, any combat encounter with Xykon at this point in the story will serve to reinforce just how badass Xykon is, or show off some new capabilities. A direct encounter with Xykon, ESPECIALLY with Tarquin's entire adventuring team, would seal their fate. If the order observes this fight they will undoubtably learn crucial information that can eventually be used to defeat Xykon, but Tarquin isn't the sort of father to take a fall for his son.

This. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin's "secret plan" was a simple retreat back to Bleedingham.

He knows, or could easily deduce that there are five gates, stuff hits the fan only when all of them are destroyed, and the gate on the Western Continent isn't the last one standing. Also, there is a bigger villain out there.

Solution? Withdraw from spotlight and lay low until this gate goes kaboom, all PCs and Big Bad leave the field for climactic showdown somewhere else, and then continue with the daily EoB routine. He needs to sacrifice Malack because the unlucky guy killed a PC and has to pay the price. Kilkil isn't marked for doom and is useful, so let's take him. And Nale's team isn't Tarquin's problem.

[rodneyAnonymous]

This. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin's "secret plan" was a simple retreat back to Bleedingham.

Whatever Tarquin is up to involves something he did before leaving the city, so probably not.

[brionl]

:xykon: Still Meteor Swarm.

How many 10th level spell slots does Xykon have? We've also seen Tarquin take basically 0 damage from Malack's Flame Strike, so how much damage is he going to take from a Meteor Swarm?

[Tock Zipporah]

How many 10th level spell slots does Xykon have? We've also seen Tarquin take basically 0 damage from Malack's Flame Strike, so how much damage is he going to take from a Meteor Swarm?

The Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15181780&postcount=3) thread has an ongoing debate over whether he actually has 10th level (or higher) spell slots, as opposed to a Metamagic Rod or the Sudden Still feat. So there's no way to know. If he does have the feat, he has at least 1 spell slot to start. The Geekery thread lists the best guess at Xykon's Charisma score as 28, which wouldn't grant him any bonus spells. But that's assuming those stats are at all accurate.

Short answer: there's just no way to know.

[Ghost Nappa]

Okay...

Call me crazy.

I think this depends a lot on Redcloak (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DragonWithAnAgenda). I remember reading somewhere that we have passed the half-way point and we have definitely 6 (possibly more) of the 9 factions running around doing things.
1) Order of the Stick
2) Linear Guild
2.5) Team Evil
3) Xykon
4) Redcloak, The Dark One, and the Gobbatopians
5) CE, NE, and LE people who got V's Soul
6) Ghost Soon, Hinjo, the Paladins, and the Azurites
7) Girard and family?
8) Serini?
9) The Snarl?
...
10) The Oracle?

I think I can see Tarquin fighting Xykon...but Tarquin will not be able to straight-up 1v1 him. (Stupid worf effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect)
I.) think Tarquin will figure out that Xykon can just go to the next gate by teleporting and team up with the OotS out of necessity. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnemyMine) Xykon is strong but you've got Roy, Haley, Elan, (a crippled) Belkar, Count Durkula, (a crippled) V, Malack, Tarquin, Z, Nale, (potentially) Sabine, the flying Secretary Kobold, Tarquin, and Scruffy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JokeCharacter) all within the area. I do not think Xykon can power-through 13 mid-to-high level PCs without Redcloak healing him, especially when half of them have a hand in magic, and he could be potentially flying/teleporting into a giant explosion that is probably able to "kill" him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)

[137beth]

The Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15181780&postcount=3) thread has an ongoing debate over whether he actually has 10th level (or higher) spell slots, as opposed to a Metamagic Rod or the Sudden Still feat. So there's no way to know. If he does have the feat, he has at least 1 spell slot to start. The Geekery thread lists the best guess at Xykon's Charisma score as 28, which wouldn't grant him any bonus spells. But that's assuming those stats are at all accurate.

Short answer: there's just no way to know.

Correction: the "best guess" for Xykon's charisma is not 28. It is "somewhere between 28 and infinity." 28 is an absolute lower bound, not an estimate of the true value.

[Kish]

How many 10th level spell slots does Xykon have? We've also seen Tarquin take basically 0 damage from Malack's Flame Strike, so how much damage is he going to take from a Meteor Swarm?
Damaging Tarquin wouldn't be the point. Destroying the whip would be, just as it was when Xykon blasted Bixby's Hand with Still Meteor Swarm.

[Tock Zipporah]

Damaging Tarquin wouldn't be the point. Destroying the whip would be, just as it was when Xykon blasted Bixby's Hand with Still Meteor Swarm.

If Tarquin has protection from fire, so does any equipment he is wielding.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

But I stand by my post of a month or so ago -- there won't be a fight. Tarquin is there to negotiate, and any combat that ensues will be Tarquin realizing that the other party ain't interested, with him just doing what he needs to do to flee.


Basically this, I'm heavy betting that in the few next comics that show the bad guys, Nale will appear running and shouting: "IT'S A FAKE!!!".
Only to find Xykon and Tarquin closing the deal.
To what Tarquin will say: "Hi Son, I met your previous employer, the one who hired you to kill the Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), remember?. It's good to see that you are actually holding to your word for once... "
Xykon will add: "Hey It's the moron I hired in the second gate that blew up. I'm not paying you a single copper piece you useless lackey. Also you are wrong, I have the exact location of the gate, and is this pyramid".
Cue Malak "Hrrrmm... Tarquin, can we talk?..."
"I recommend we execute maneuver Romeo Uniform November"
"You sure?"
"Definetely"
_ Item of mass teleport
- Gate explodes.
Maybe somethin

[Ward.]

I very much doubt Tarquin could beat Xykon. Xykon's strengths are his personal manipulation, his allies, his phylactery, his planning and his sheer bloody-mindedness. Xykon knew he was outmatched by Dorukan, so he acquired the psychological advantage. Vaarsuvius+Ganonron+Jephton dwarfed Xykon in terms of arcane power, but the lich's allies saved him. Tarquin and the Linear Guild might survive a few rounds against Team Evil, but even 1v1 Tarquin vs. Xykon probably wouldn't go well for Tarquin.

That's not entirely true, both of those fights were in xykons favor. He mentions that all he needed to do was pull the wizard out of his fortress to take him while vis fight was 2 epic wizards who couldn't take xykon 1v1 and a lower level blast caster againt a sorc lich, a near epic cleric and the thurge (if vi had been smart enough to draw xykon out of his goblin city/ bring his entire adventuring party with him + paladins things might have turned out differently).

in regards to vs tarquin, it's a question of preperation. If tarq has some way to pull up his 6though epic level friends then it's game over. Atm malak is burned out though.

[JBiddles]

^ Not so. Had Dorukan been thinking rationally, he could have Wished for a Death Ward, Gated in creatures that could easily kill Xykon, Disjoined Xykon's magic items, Shapechanged, etc. Xykon had to use Lirian's soul to make Dorukan panic and attack him blindly.

With regards to Darth V, the Snarl couldn't kill Evisceratus if it fought like V. That was the point of the Darth V arc - V was drunk on power, trance-deprived, traumatised, Spliced and suffering severe PTSD. Xykon is a terrifying villain, but he's not God. His effectiveness as a villain doesn't come solely from his immense raw power.

[Coyotenose]

The winner will be whichever one Tarquin wants to win.

Why? Because Tarquin is the DM. :P

[Mike Havran]

The winner will be whichever one Tarquin wants to win.

Why? Because Tarquin is the DM. :P

*diabolical grin*

That would please me :smallamused:

[Ward.]

I might be remembering it wrong but I think dorukan mentions he was just waiting for xykon to use the druids soul as bait. He seemed to simply undersetimate xykon and that aspect of his personality is a flaw which would always result in defeat against a guy like xykon.

[Dark Matter]

It has been argued that it is "reasonable" to assume that Xykon has at least 30 ranks in the skill Spellcraft, in order to have certain Epic spells, based on a train of logic that is fairly popular in the Class And Level Geekery threads. Their logic is less than unassailable (e.g. we do not know it is impossible for Xykon to have a item that gives a bonus to the Spellcraft skill).That's one line of logic. Another is between the 12th level spell(s) he's able to cast and his various other epic feats, he needs to be 27+. Yet another line of logic is from some of the things which have been said, he's sporting epic item(s) which also require a similar level (admittedly this is weaker).

What's much worse, the alternatives to level 27+ involve one or more of...
a) A different level 27+ epic guy around helpfully making items for X.
b) FAR more cheese, and unmentioned cheese at that, than we normally see.

Having said this, Tarquin has the resources of an empire, time to prepare, might be epic himself (or even higher level than Xykon), and his entire crew might be epic.

[Olinser]

That's not entirely true, both of those fights were in xykons favor. He mentions that all he needed to do was pull the wizard out of his fortress to take him while vis fight was 2 epic wizards who couldn't take xykon 1v1 and a lower level blast caster againt a sorc lich, a near epic cleric and the thurge (if vi had been smart enough to draw xykon out of his goblin city/ bring his entire adventuring party with him + paladins things might have turned out differently).

in regards to vs tarquin, it's a question of preperation. If tarq has some way to pull up his 6though epic level friends then it's game over. Atm malak is burned out though.

Malack has not shown a single ability or spell that suggests he is above 12th level. If their party was Epic, there would be absolutely no reason they'd drag a low-level like Malack around with them.

Tarquin, while powerful, likewise has not shown a single epic ability (though I acknowledge that Epic close-combat classes are EXTREMELY difficult to differentiate, unless Rich decides to have him shout 'EPIC WEAPON SPECIALIZATION!' we probably never will know exactly what level Tarquin is.

Most estimates place Tarquin as the highest level in the party, and around 16-18. The others are probably in the 15-17 range.

Still could be a threat to Xykon, with proper planning and spell choice though.

[Tock Zipporah]

Malack has not shown a single ability or spell that suggests he is above 12th level. If their party was Epic, there would be absolutely no reason they'd drag a low-level like Malack around with them.

Tarquin, while powerful, likewise has not shown a single epic ability (though I acknowledge that Epic close-combat classes are EXTREMELY difficult to differentiate, unless Rich decides to have him shout 'EPIC WEAPON SPECIALIZATION!' we probably never will know exactly what level Tarquin is.

Most estimates place Tarquin as the highest level in the party, and around 16-18. The others are probably in the 15-17 range.

Still could be a threat to Xykon, with proper planning and spell choice though.

Don't forget Malack's level adjustment of +8. If he is twelfth level, his level adjustment makes him ECL 20. If Tarquin is expected to be higher ECL than Malack, then he'd have to be above level 20.

[Redgoblin]

One thing I think we all have to agree on is that, given sufficient time to plan, Tarquin could defeat Xykon. I say this because we expect Roy to defeat Xykon, and all believe we will. However, consider that Tarquin is a better combatant than Roy, has more resources than Roy, and is around Roy's level as a strategist. Given this, I fail to see how anyone could reasonably believe that Tarquin couldn't defeat Xykon, given sufficient time, unless you don't think Roy will win in the end.

As for the more immediate question, can Tarquin defeat Xykon should they meet right now, I would say it depends on what preparations he has made off screen.

[Kish]

One thing I think we all have to agree on is that, given sufficient time to plan, Tarquin could defeat Xykon.

I decline.

Given this, I fail to see how anyone could reasonably believe that Tarquin couldn't defeat Xykon, given sufficient time, unless you don't think Roy will win in the end.
I do not grant that Tarquin has everything Roy does even from a strictly mechanical point of view. And even if, hypothetically speaking, you were correct in that (which I do not believe you are), Roy is still the protagonist--not Tarquin.

You are, of course, free to think I'm being unreasonable; I think the idea of Tarquin defeating Xykon is almost goofy, so there we are.

[137beth]

Don't forget Malack's level adjustment of +8. If he is twelfth level, his level adjustment makes him ECL 20. If Tarquin is expected to be higher ECL than Malack, then he'd have to be above level 20.
1.Why does Tarquin have to be a higher ECL/CR than Malack?
2. For NPCs, the relevant feature is CR, not ECL, and the CR adjustment for the vampire template is +2, not +8.


One thing I think we all have to agree on is that, given sufficient time to plan, Tarquin could defeat Xykon. I say this because we expect Roy to defeat Xykon, and all believe we will. However, consider that Tarquin is a better combatant than Roy, has more resources than Roy, and is around Roy's level as a strategist. Given this, I fail to see how anyone could reasonably believe that Tarquin couldn't defeat Xykon, given sufficient time, unless you don't think Roy will win in the end.


No, I think the possibility of Tarquin defeating Xykon is utterly ridiculous. Consider their respective power levels...

[WowWeird]

I decline.

I do not grant that Tarquin has everything Roy does even from a strictly mechanical point of view. And even if, hypothetically speaking, you were correct in that (which I do not believe you are), Roy is still the protagonist--not Tarquin.

You are, of course, free to think I'm being unreasonable; I think the idea of Tarquin defeating Xykon is almost goofy, so there we are.

Though I'm completely in agreement with you on the conclusion you make (i.e. Xykon wiping the floor with Tarquin), I'm a little curious as to why you think that a(sufficient preparation wouldn't be enough to open the possibility of a Tarquin victory and b(Tarquin doesn't have access to anything Roy has from a mechanical standpoint.

For a., I don't think that preparing a bit could suddenly guarantee Tarquin's victory, but one of the primary weaknesses of D&D Sorcerers is their lack of flexibility. They have a lot of spell slots, and can cast spontaneously, but they only know a few spells which they cannot change ('cept for when leveling, but that's not the point). If Tarquin had a lot of time to prepare and a good or comprehensive knowledge of Xykon's capabilities, with the resources of several empires at his disposal, I think he could very well have a shot at Xykon (especially since Xykon's not much of a tactical thinker). Hell, an item that grants immunity to fire (or just very high resistance) alongside an item of Death Ward would nerf a lot of Xykon's spell selection, and neither seems far out of the way for Tarquin, who has a lot of time to prepare and a lot of resources by the nature of the prompt. Granted, this would hardly guarantee Tarquin winning (Xykon has a few options for retreating (though I would call that a 'defeat') and a lot of HP/DR to burn while he figures out how to handle Tarquin with less conventional methods) but in terms of merely making the odds 80:20 for Xykon rather than 99.99:.01, I think preparation could absolutely satisfy the goal.

On point b; yes, of course Roy has a variety of character/plot advantages over Tarquin, but what does he have mechanically? Maybe the homebrewed starmetal (though I think it'd be possible for Tarquin to find one of the other 300 lbs that have allegedly fallen from the sky with imperial resources), but even that doesn't seem mechanically superior to whatever Tarquin could get (it's +5, which is great in melee terms but not all that pricey when you get right down to it; it has the weird anti-undead aura, which is hard to guesstimate but doesn't seem all that great given how many times it was employed against Xykon during WaXP to only minor effect; and it's shatterproof, which is true of every other magic item in existence). The rest is a belt of Strength common enough for oasis attendants to have access to, and (presumably magic) armor that hasn't demonstrated any awe-inspiring abilities yet. Roy's a fighter, and that means whatever class Tarquin is will almost certainly have access to most of those bonus feats (though likely sans Weapon Specialization) and that full BAB progression. Why does it seem inaccurate to you to give Tarquin access to all the mechanical assets Roy has?
...Someday, I'll write like a two-word post, and that'll cancel this one out for my average wordcount. :smallredface:

[137beth]

For a., I don't think that preparing a bit could suddenly guarantee Tarquin's victory, but one of the primary weaknesses of D&D Sorcerers is their lack of flexibility. They have a lot of spell slots, and can cast spontaneously, but they only know a few spells which they cannot change ('cept for when leveling, but that's not the point). If Tarquin had a lot of time to prepare and a good or comprehensive knowledge of Xykon's capabilities, with the resources of several empires at his disposal, I think he could very well have a shot at Xykon (especially since Xykon's not much of a tactical thinker). Hell, an item that grants immunity to fire (or just very high resistance) alongside an item of Death Ward would nerf a lot of Xykon's spell selection, and neither seems far out of the way for Tarquin, who has a lot of time to prepare and a lot of resources by the nature of the prompt. Granted, this would hardly guarantee Tarquin winning (Xykon has a few options for retreating (though I would call that a 'defeat') and a lot of HP/DR to burn while he figures out how to handle Tarquin with less conventional methods) but in terms of merely making the odds 80:20 for Xykon rather than 99.99:.01, I think preparation could absolutely satisfy the goal.
It may be worth noting that up until now, Xykon has not used wands on-panel. The thing about wands for epic level sorcerers is that they basically give you access to every spell--the whole "limited spell selection" goes completely out the window.
Now, it could be that Xykon has wands in store, but only uses them when he needs to, and we haven't seen him need to yet. That might give Tarquin a bit of an edge: even if Xykon could bypass all of Tarquin's preparation by using some well-placed wands, it might take Xykon many rounds to realize that he actually needs to use his items, giving Tarquin a few more rounds to hack away at Xykon. Still, the odds aren't good for Tarquin. At worst, I'd expect him to dispel any dimensional anchors/anti-magic/whatever, teleport away, and then come back a few rounds later and kill Tarquin.

[DeadMG]

Tarquin isn't going to *beat* Xykon. He's just going to slow them down whilst the Order destroy the Gate. Xykon's been nearly defeated or destroyed by all the Gate's guardians. Tarquin is the stand-in for Girard- he's the honorary guardian of this gate. There's plenty of motivation for him to want to defend it. I think it's almost certain that not only will he and Xykon fight, but that Tarquin will be victorious or almost certainly cause heavy damage and inconvenience to Xykon. Then Xykon will come back with a new strategy that is super effective, defeat or kill him or both, and then it's just slightly too late.

[Lord Raziere]

Tarquin will not die to Xykon because of tactic or realistic combat strategy.

he will die to Xykon because his goal in this story to get killed by his son and therefore become remembered for all time. he is clearly not the main villain in this narrative, and therefore will die by irony to Xykon- instead of being taken down by a plucky hero rising up against him, he is going to be taken down by the bigger evil overlord looking down upon him, with only the cold realization that he was never the main villain at all.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Don't forget Malack's level adjustment of +8. If he is twelfth level, his level adjustment makes him ECL 20. If Tarquin is expected to be higher ECL than Malack, then he'd have to be above level 20. (emphasis added)

No, he is higher level, but Tarquin is not expected to be higher ECL than Malack-with-LA. If he were, Malack wouldn't have complained to Durkon about not being able to find suitable encounters, because he'd get pretty good XP from Team Tarquin's adventures. The rest of the party members being mid-to-high teens (and Malack's ECL being in the low 20s) makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective that a low-to-mid 20s party would be less likely to have a cleric with only 12 class levels.