Great ways to optimize CW Samurai

[Sor-El]

My brother plays a Gnome Samurai quite well.
He is a level 4 and he loves the thrill of battle.
I know the Samurai is terrible,but we play far more for the flavor and character.
What would be good things for him to get that will make him better in his frontline combat role?

[Norin]

Build around iaijitsu focus and intimidate. It's a good example somewhere around on this forum.

It's all about using the few things they do "well" as a class.

[Urpriest]

Build around iaijitsu focus and intimidate. It's a good example somewhere around on this forum.

It's all about using the few things they do "well" as a class.

CW Samurai doesn't have Iaijitsu Focus.

Intimidate is around, though it won't kick in for a while.

[eggynack]

The problem is, there just isn't much that they do. They just kinda blandly fail at stuff. They get some nifty intimidation stuff, but that starts at level 10, and level 10 and level 4 are quite a distance apart. By level 4, all they have to their name are proficiency with mediocre weapons, the ability to use them at the same time, and a mediocre smite ability once a day. There's nothing to optimize there that wouldn't equally optimize a warrior, because the way I figure it, you're usually going to want to avoid the two weapon fighting in exchange for something reasonably useful, like two handed fighting. The improved TWF comes way too late, as does greater TWF. I'd advise either using the Oriental Adventures samurai, as it's marginally better, or refluffing something else as a samurai. Stuff from tome of battle is always good, and depending on how your brother wants to play it, he could justify any of the three classes. You could always just toss him a great sword, and have him take power attack, but it's just not a good game to play.

[Vaz]

Obligatory Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885) link and Iron Chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14083630&postcount=64) Link.

[AuraTwilight]

Progress to Samurai 11, fall, and enjoy being a Samurai 1/Ronin 10.

[Waker]

As others have pointed out, the Samurai isn't that great, but I'll make a few suggestions.
Take a look at the Exotic Weapon Master. It's got easy entry requirements (you have EWP (Bastard Sword)) already). The stunts to look at in particular are Uncanny Blow (X2 Str instead of 1-1/2 Str) and Show Off (BAB+Intimidate).
Ronin is another decent PrC that gives you a bit more flexibility with the RP options. It also thematically combines well with
Avenging Executioner lets you deal extra damage against foes you've scared and scares foes you've hit. A vicious cycle. Kinda bothersome paying extra for the skills, but whatever.

None of my suggestions were exactly high powered, but then again neither is the Samurai.

[sonofzeal]

My own take on optimizing CW Samurai:

Check out "Perform: Weapon Drill", also from CWar. You get to add your BAB to the check, and get bonuses based on a number of combat feats - of which Samurais get a surprising number. Grab the rest; that'll qualify you for Crescent Moon (feat, same book) while you're at it.

Then check what you can do with high perform checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#perform). Remember that Samurais get several class features that scale off Cha already, and Circlet of Persuasion in particular helps your Intimidate/Staredown.

How quickly do you think you can get that DC 50 Perform Check?

[eggynack]

Check out "Perform: Weapon Drill", also from CWar. You get to add your BAB to the check, and get bonuses based on a number of combat feats - of which Samurais get a surprising number. Grab the rest; that'll qualify you for Crescent Moon (feat, same book) while you're at it.

I don't think that samurai have any feats that would help them with weapon drill. They don't have two weapon fighting, or quick draw. They only have two swords as one, and iajatsu master. I don't think those qualify in a RAW sense, though I may be wrong. Specifically, two swords as one might work, as long as you're always wielding a katana and wakizashi, but iajatsu master probably wouldn't, because you only count as having the feat while you are drawing your weapon, and I don't think that would be effective for this. I mean, I guess you could keep drawing and redrawing your weapon as the entirety of the performance, but that doesn't seem to fit in with the wording of the skill. In any case, I'd let a player do it, because they're a CW samurai and need all the help they can get, but it seems potentially un-RAW.

[Norin]

CW Samurai doesn't have Iaijitsu Focus.

Intimidate is around, though it won't kick in for a while.

Sorry, i was not remembering the details very well there.

Build by ShneekeyTheLost

Here is the character n question: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726

It did quite well in this PvP arena at least:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885

[sonofzeal]

I don't think that samurai have any feats that would help them with weapon drill. They don't have two weapon fighting, or quick draw. They only have two swords as one, and iajatsu master. I don't think those qualify in a RAW sense, though I may be wrong. Specifically, two swords as one might work, as long as you're always wielding a katana and wakizashi, but iajatsu master probably wouldn't, because you only count as having the feat while you are drawing your weapon, and I don't think that would be effective for this. I mean, I guess you could keep drawing and redrawing your weapon as the entirety of the performance, but that doesn't seem to fit in with the wording of the skill. In any case, I'd let a player do it, because they're a CW samurai and need all the help they can get, but it seems potentially un-RAW.
All of those use the language "treated as having", which for me seems sufficient as long as you're doing the Weapon Drill under the described conditions. Which, hey, you probably would have been anyway.

[eggynack]

All of those use the language "treated as having", which for me seems sufficient as long as you're doing the Weapon Drill under the described conditions. Which, hey, you probably would have been anyway.
That probably works out for the two weapon fighting, but I'm still not sure that you can justify quick draw. Under optimal circumstances, you'd basically be treated as having the feat flicker on and off over the course of your performance, which I doubt would net you the bonus. Come to think of it, I was going to argue that the samurai's main fighting style sucks, so weapon drill shoehorns you, but you can just have the swords for performance purposes, so it all works out. In any case, it's a neat idea, but I'm pretty sure that only two swords as one would qualify for the purposes of performance. Actually, depending on your definition of wielding, whenever you sheath the sword in order to get quick draw, you'd lose two weapon fighting. It's all rather ambiguous, though TWF definitely seems to work out.

[sonofzeal]

That probably works out for the two weapon fighting, but I'm still not sure that you can justify quick draw. Under optimal circumstances, you'd basically be treated as having the feat flicker on and off over the course of your performance, which I doubt would net you the bonus. Come to think of it, I was going to argue that the samurai's main fighting style sucks, so weapon drill shoehorns you, but you can just have the swords for performance purposes, so it all works out. In any case, it's a neat idea, but I'm pretty sure that only two swords as one would qualify for the purposes of performance. Actually, depending on your definition of wielding, whenever you sheath the sword in order to get quick draw, you'd lose two weapon fighting. It's all rather ambiguous, though TWF definitely seems to work out.
I just figure, if your Weapon Drill is gaining a bonus from Quick Draw, it means you're drawing your weapon at some point in it. When drawing their weapons, the Samurai is treated as having Quick Draw. They can exactly duplicate the performance of someone with EWP:bastard sword, TWF, Quick Draw, etc. Thus, they should get the same benefit.

Granted that's more of an argument from versimilitude than from RAW, but it seems strong enough that I wouldn't expect most DMs to object on principal.

[eggynack]

I just figure, if your Weapon Drill is gaining a bonus from Quick Draw, it means you're drawing your weapon at some point in it. When drawing their weapons, the Samurai is treated as having Quick Draw. They can exactly duplicate the performance of someone with EWP:bastard sword, TWF, Quick Draw, etc. Thus, they should get the same benefit.

Granted that's more of an argument from versimilitude than from RAW, but it seems strong enough that I wouldn't expect most DMs to object on principal.
I suppose I can buy that. It's a little on the flimsy side, but there's at least some logic to it. It's certainly an odd and ambiguous little rules issue.

[Diovid]

Step 1: Read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).
Step 2: Read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809).
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

[eggynack]

Huh. I thought that those dead level abilities were nearly universally purely flavorful in nature. The samurai ones seem like they might actually be better than a good number of the samurai's actual class features, owing largely to how terrible the samurai is. Go figure.

[georgie_leech]

Step 1: Read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).
Step 2: Read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809).
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Check again, the article specifically says that Breaking Stare can only be used to change behavior (i.e. Let us in or I'll murder you where you stand), not to demoralise your opponent (what most people want Intimidate for).

[eggynack]

Check again, the article specifically says that Breaking Stare can only be used to change behavior (i.e. Let us in or I'll murder you where you stand), not to demoralise your opponent (what most people want Intimidate for).
That's kinda sad. Still, it's probably better than a few of the samurai's current class features, while it was probably better than about half of them with the incorrect reading.

[JaronK]

If you truly play for the flavor of the character, then I'd recommend switching to a Warblade, which actually has Samurai flavor. The CW Samurai... doesn't. Dual wielding Katanas and Wakasashis wasn't even a thing! That's the equivalent of a modern soldier dual wielding an assault rifle and pistol (and just as ineffective).

With that said, the usual way to optimize a CW Samurai is to get to level 10, then get Imperious Command, and just scare people. Use Fearsome armor (from Drow of the Underdark) to get fear as a move action. Use that a lot, it's about all you have, and enemies that are immune to fear are going to be annoying.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I wouldn't say there is a 'great' way to optimize CW Samurai, your options are pretty limited.

Yes, I built a one-trick pony that was pretty good at locking down a monk using CW Samurai (in fact, the build in the duel was the previous version which was just CW Samurai 13, it had a lower Intimidate score, and couldn't Take 10 on Intimidate checks like the version linked above can), but really... there's a lot of problems with the build as well.

First off, his damage output sucks. I mean, it absolutely stinks, and there's very little you can do to actually improve it. He's blowing his Move action to intimidate every round, which means he gets a SINGLE attack each turn. The damage he does is lousy, and most of it is precision-based, which many opponents are immune to.

Second, it's all fear-based. If your GM decides that Intimidate to Demoralize is mind-affecting, you probably won't be able to get your one trick to work by the time it comes online because everything will either be mindless or immune to mind-affecting.

For what it does, and what I had to work with, Takahashi does a fair job... he's an area-effect lockdown spammer. If you aren't immune to him, you are pretty much screwed, even if it might take him a decade to finally finish you off and no one intervenes. In a group setting, he can charge into the frey and lock everything down, allowing his party members to mop up the cowering opponents, as long as said opponents aren't immune.

He's very much a 'rocket tag' sort of build... either you win or you lose, and it all depends on if your target is immune to your Intimidate check or not.

But hey, he's a CW Samurai which CAN actually do something meaningful combat (barring immunities). Which, I guess, puts him a few steps ahead of the average CW Samurai.